US Urged To Keep Space Shuttles Flying Past 2010 219
DarkNemesis618 writes "A US Representative has proposed that NASA keep the shuttle fleet flying past its planned 2010 retirement date. The move would help NASA avoid reliance on Russian rockets during the gap between the Space Shuttle retirement and the start of the Orion program. One proposal would keep the shuttle fleet flying from 2010 to 2013 while another would keep the fleet alive until the Orion program is ready in about 2015. 2011 marks the end of the exemption that has allowed NASA to use Soyuz rockets for trips to the Space Station, and they would need an extension to keep using Russian launch vehicles. NASA's other option lies in the private sector; but thus far, the progress from that quarter does not look sufficient to meet the 2011 deadline."
Race goes on (Score:5, Insightful)
"Urged" by whom? (Score:5, Insightful)
Perhaps not the brightest of ideas. (Score:5, Insightful)
I know that strapping yourself to a rocket and heading for space is never safe but it would be better not to make it more dangerous. At the same time, I can see that extending the life by 6 months or so would help alleviate the current pressures on the STS for the station-construction mission (but that's not what the article discusses)
I presume the reasoning for not wanting to rely on the Russian crew launch system is that any souring of the American-Russian relationship could make the deal problematic. How about if it were via ESA and the forthcoming Soyuz operation at French-Guiana? Would this side-step some of the possible relationship issues?
Re:Race goes on (Score:5, Insightful)
I submit that Napoleon may have had a better grasp of human nature.
Your question could be recast as: "If ODF is there and all, why OOXML?"
Re:Race goes on (Score:1, Insightful)
Some people do not understand that makeup for hiding age works only for humans, and it is not fun to die in space while all liquid in your body is boiling...
Re:Race goes on (Score:2, Insightful)
In the meantime, there are essentially a fixed number of shuttle external tanks left. Why not fly those out, whether it takes until 2010 or 2012, whatever, then move on after that?
Re:Spend (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm not sure that the STS as it was finally created could ever be called a 'responsible' use of resources but right now, it's the only manned launcher the USA has so they've got to work with it until Orion becomes available.
Yes, but on the bright side... (Score:5, Insightful)
Hey NASA can go waste all the billions they want, it's still a drop in the bucket compared to wars which suck up a lot more money and produce even less useful results than NASA.
It's too bad the privatized companies (Virgin Galactic, Blue Origin, SpaceX, Armadillo) can't ramp up development to meet the need. Oddly enough, *their* space race will produce the only results that will actually lower the cost per pound to orbit.
It's too bad we're all so scared of failure these days. Consider that during the development of aircraft, a lot of people died. A lot of people died just trying to cross the Atlantic. We didn't halt aircraft development every time some lunatic in a biplane was lost in a storm. But for some reason, we're afraid to blow up the occasional person to get into space. We need to get over that. A lot of people are going to die before we're able to easily leave the planet as easily as we currently visit another continent. That's just a reality and no amount of double checking is going to change that.
Well, for test flights anyhow, we could always use that Humanoid Robot (REEM-B) some guy spent three *whole* years developing!
Follow the money (Score:5, Insightful)
My guess is that this is a national economy thing and has nothing to do with flight-worthiness or risk analysis.
Re:Spend (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Spend (Score:1, Insightful)
Politics as usual (Score:4, Insightful)
I like how the congressman describes it as an "arbitrary" date for decomissioning and that the risks won't increase overnight. I say send a congressman up on every mission after the shuttle's sell by date.
They probably can be used effectively for many years, but that doesn't mean that they should. Every bit of extra maintenance and upkeep performed on an old system, every bit of extra testing to make sure parts still function and every investigation into a failure will slow the space program and new developments. This is pork politics no matter how it's dressed up.
Re:Spend (Score:3, Insightful)
[snip]
So maybe you are too intelligent if you keep asking "why"
Re:Race goes on (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Race goes on (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Yes, but on the bright side... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Race goes on (Score:4, Insightful)
I find it unlikely Soyuz had the same number of flights as the shuttles. they have flown since about 68, from the original models to the TMA variant currently in use. I am not sure exactly how many flights were done, but I am quite sure that, being in service for about a decade longer than the shuttle makes it quite sure it had flown more missions. Also, the last failure with loss of crew (during re-entry) happened long ago, a couple design iterations back. I think it's safe to assume Soyouz-class vehicles are a very mature design and, quite probably, safer that shuttles.
There is no dishonor in having a less safe space vehicle. The shuttle is an incredible achievement. It's only unfortunate it was too ambitious.
BTW, since they are expendable, one could argument every mission ends in partial failure, with the loss of the vehicle
Re:Race goes on (Score:4, Insightful)
It "works" for Switzerland because they are a landlocked mountainous country with little natural resources surrounded by friendly neighbors. Switzerland came dangerously close to being invaded by Nazi Germany during WW2 and probably would have been (sooner or later) if Barbarossa hadn't turned out so badly.
The Swiss model isn't going to work for nations like Russia or the United States (too big, too much economic clout, too involved in World affairs). It isn't going to work for nations with unfriendly neighbors (Israel, Pakistan, India, Taiwan). It isn't going to work for nations located on natural invasion routes between stronger powers (Poland, the Low Countries, etc).
It's not about "not being chummy" with Russia. It's about retaining a native space launch capability and not relying on other nations to do it for us. As a random example: Why the hell is Europe deploying Galileo? Shouldn't they just rely on GPS and the United States? Are they trying to "not be chummy" with us?
See the point?
Re:Race goes on (Score:3, Insightful)
You don't say... [youtube.com]
Seriously -- a 2% failure rate after a statistically significant number of launches is actually pretty good by orbital rocketry standards. The real problem with the shuttle is launch costs. Which was largely a design problem, which was largely a budget-cuts-while-mandating-increasing-scope problem. And rather than try and advance the state of the art, and actually put forth the funding for it, our solution is just to go backwards.
Here's to SpaceX pulling off cheaper access to space by use of good design principles and not repeating same-old, same-old. If they keep their schedule as tight as they've been doing, Orion will be practically obsolete on its maiden flight. The Falcon-9 heavy is scheduled to launch just one year after the maiden flight of the Ares I (Orion's delivery system), and has similar stats -- except for the Falcon having by far the cheapest inflation-adjusted price per kilogram of any payload delivery system in history, let alone any man-rated payload delivery system. And the Dragon spacecraft is scheduled to launch two years before the first unmanned Orion launch.
Perhaps I'm lettingn the cart get ahead of the horse here. Orbital spaceflight is a graveyard for small companies, and even big companies typically change their "revolutionary" prices after insisting that they won't once the craft launches successfully. But I like the Falcon series' design, and am impressed with their progress so far. So, here's to hoping.
Re:LC-39C (Score:2, Insightful)
Stop thinking you need to invent stuff that has already been invented by seasoned professionals in the commercial launch industry. Trust me we have solutions for whatever troubles your heart about spaceflight. We are systematically blocked by pervasive not-invented-here syndrome and an near total lack of hands-on know-how at NASA. We planned out an entire cost effective architecture that would have put people on the moon in 2012 for about 20% of NASA's projected costs. This was to be commenced in 2007. The offer still stands. Have you heard of it? Probably not- it has been systematically blocked from publication by NASA administrators and their henchmen for years now.
But you can keep on with ARES- it will be history within 15 years if it flies at all- remembered as a pimple on the leprous butt that was Shuttle. Sensible designs will outlast it- as they did Saturn.