Crater From 1908 Tunguska Blast Found 192
MaineCoasts writes "A team of scientists from the Marine Science Institute in Bologna claims to have found the crater left by the aerial blast of a comet or asteroid in 1908 in the Tunguska region of Siberia. The blast flattened 770 square miles (2,000 square kilometers) of forest, but to date no remains or crater have been found. This has left open the question of what kind of object made the impact. The team believes that, contrary to previous studies, nearby Lake Cheko is only one century old and 'If the body was an asteroid, a surviving fragment may be buried beneath the lake. If it was a comet, its chemical signature should be found in the deepest layers of sediments.' The team's findings are based on a 1999 expedition to Tunguska and appeared in the August issue of the journal Terra Nova."
I've always wondered (Score:5, Insightful)
At the time I wondered, after seeing all those flattened trees, how they failed to find the crater. Wouldn't it just be a case of going to several spots, drawing a parallel line to the flattened trees, then looking on a map for the point where the lines intersect? Presumably all the trees fell "away" from the blast area.
Re:I've always wondered (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:I've always wondered (Score:5, Informative)
Also, my post on this [slashdot.org] has a link to a PDF with a sketch of the breaking apart and trajectories.
Also, remember how long ago this happened. There was an expedition there but they didn't have the technology we did. I'm not sure if the tree patterns would help you 100 years later.
Re:I've always wondered (Score:5, Interesting)
Yes. Something that is easy for us to forget is that they didn't have roads, or even much in the way of all terrain vehicles, much less helicopters or satellites when this occurred. Not to mention, it was largely ignored until after the revolution and WWI were both finished up with. The first aerial photographs taken of the site were taken 30 years later and still clearly showed the fall pattern, but no crater was visible.
It's easy to look at the pictures and think you can simply follow the trees all the way to the center. Way easier said than done. First of all, the site is pretty much in the middle of nowhere. There's just a few scattered villages, no doubt with abysmal roads between each and almost nothing traversable with wheels leading anywhere else. They would have walked or ridden pack animals for the entire survey.
It's also a huge area. 80 million trees were felled over 830 square miles. Hunters (I've done my share) and loggers are probably familiar with trying to walk through such an area. The trees may look all neatly arrayed in a photograph, as if you could step easily from one to the next or walk between them like a trail, but the truth is far different. Without the perspective benefit from being atop a hill, the fall pattern is more difficult to discern. The branches will lie tangled, blocking the path at frequent intervals. The trunks will be random distances apart, some managing to overlap nearby trunks. They often sit several feet above the ground, making it easy to fall and twist an ankle or knee, and exhausting to climb over again and again and again. Vegetation will have sprouted up in the 19 years between the fall and Kulik's arrival, leaving a tangled mess of shrubs and briers that sometimes appear deceptively solid from above and forboding from ground level. A mile per hour is a decent speed walking through such an area with several days worth of supplies on your back.
But Kulik actually did push through to the center, and he found several trees standing upright, stripped of their branches, consistent with an airburst from above. He also found a bog he was convinced was a crater, but when he drained it there were old tree stumps at the bottom. For an impact to have formed the bog the blast would have shattered the old trees and tossed the remains out of the muddy crater.
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The first expedition to the area of "ground zero" got there approximately 20 years after the event. They were guided by local memories and reports of the fireball (which they had to triangulate) ; they had reports form some local hunters that "there were flattened trees three valleys over thattaway ...", etc. And, of course, th
Airburst (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Airburst (Score:4, Informative)
I think you may have a misconception as to why an airburst occurs. A meteor (or comet) enters the atmosphere and is decelerated by interacting with the air. To first order the rate of deceleration (and therefore the stress on the meteor) is related to the ratio of the surface area of the object to its mass. If the deceleration stress exceeds the tensile strength of the material it will fragment. If you break an object into multiple pieces, you've increased the surface area but left the total mass the same. The net effect that fragmenting increases the stress and results in more fragmentation and more rapid deceleration. Once fragmentation starts it doesn't like to stop. It progresses very rapidly and all of the kinetic energy gets turned into heat in a few microseconds.
Another way of thinking about it is that it would be hard to get solid pieces surviving after a 15 megaton airburst. Pick your favorite 60 meter diameter piece of rock. Put a 15 Mton H-bomb on it and set if off. Tell me home much of your rock is left.
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Re:Airburst (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:I've always wondered (Score:5, Insightful)
Right now we'd simply take some pictures with a satelite, and fly some helicopters to the impact spot. Back then they would've had to mount an expedition on foot. And that was simply not feasible.
By the time it became possible to reach the impact site relatively easy, nature had already taken its course and finding the impact spot became impossible/very hard.
Re:I've always wondered (Score:5, Funny)
Apollo 11 mission...
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It reminds me of something...
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What kills me is that a 1999 expidition is just now being published? WTF have they been doing all these years? How slow are they typing? Did they get a monk to transcribe it for them?
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Re:I've always wondered (Score:4, Interesting)
From what I know of the event, and as is stated in the summary, it was an aerial blast; i.e. the asteroid/comet/alien-spaceship exploded before impact. The "crater" where the remains of the $object should be found would not be directly under that explosion, as the $object would have some unknown velocity at some unknown angle.
While the method you propose makes sense, all it really tells you is where the explosion occured, not where the remains can be found.
Aikon-
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Well there you have it, Dennis Kucinich must have been there so all we need to do is ask him!
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Oblig Ghostbusters (Score:4, Funny)
Louis: Who are you guys?
Dr Ray Stantz: We're the Ghostbusters.
Louis: Who does your taxes?
Dr Ray Stantz: You know, Mr. Tully, you are a most fortunate individual.
Louis: I know!
Dr Ray Stantz: You have been a participant in the biggest interdimensional cross rip since the Tunguska blast of 1909!
Louis: Felt great.
Dr. Egon Spengler: We'd like to get a sample of your brain tissue.
Louis: Okay.
Re:I've always wondered (Score:5, Informative)
If it had been a loosely packed asteroid or a comet, it would have disintegrated into lots of small chunks and vaporised before reaching the ground.
The eyewitness reports are interesting:
"Kezhemskoe village. On the 17th an unusual atmospheric event was observed. At 7:43 the noise akin to a strong wind was heard. Immediately afterwards a horrific thump sounded, followed by an earthquake which literally shook the buildings, as if they were hit by a large log or a heavy rock. The first thump was followed by a second, and then a third.
We have friends who own a house next to quarry. Whenever there is a major explosion there always seems to two explosions heard; the first seems to be the shockwave travelling through the ground (a large dull sound thump) while the second is the shockwave through the air which sounds like a shotgun being fired. Then there is the all clear. So maybe the lake is the crater.
I vote for a comet (Score:3, Funny)
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"This water came from ice that sustained a comet 4.6 billion years. Don't you deserve the same? Buy Samethingastheothers Water. It's out of this world!"
I'm a bit worried (Score:2)
Re:I'm a bit worried (Score:5, Funny)
Considering YOU think that square miles are a measure of distance rather than area, and that kilometers are equivalent to miles, I'd say they have a better chance than you do.
more importantly (Score:5, Funny)
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he's trying to get us to retune our hats to let in the REAL frequency!
the speed of light / (3.26 kilometers) = 91.9608767 kilohertz
tau muon rays do not travel at the speed of light (Score:2)
people can't even get the speed of tau muon rays right? they come straight from the golden orifice of ga-ur! who in their right mind would not possess this information? it should be memorized by schoolchildren
egads
WE HAVE BEEN INFILTRATED BY THE PULAXI, SPREADING THEIR USUAL LIES
trust no one and nothing
wait... (Score:2, Funny)
if you are, that's a fantastic bait hook right there, congratulations on crafting that lure
if you are not trolling us, and you are actually and earnestly interested in tesla causing tunguska, then congratulations to me
for reeling in with my conspiracy theorist joke a genuine paranoid schizophrenic
But don't worry about my incredulous attitude friend, I'M AN AGENT OF THE ILLUMINATI
i was sent here to distract you with silly jokes, to interfere with your concentration in the important search
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The Tesla explanation is always quickly dismissed. My point is that quick dismissal never quashes underdog theories. What is needed is a thoroughly complete study of why it couldn't have been Tesla. I realize its sometimes impossible to disprove anything, but, afaik no one has even tried. "Its ridiculous, that's why," is not a scientific explaination. Many many many sane individuals, either for lack of specific scientific knowledge or real evidence to the contrary, think maybe its
i can help you solve your problem (Score:2)
problem solved
actually, occam's razor is useful when you talk about relative probabilities that are roughly the same scale... such as 99% versus 1% probability: the 99% probability explanation should be your answer. occam's razor at work
however, in your particular query, i'd say the probabilities approach quadrillions to 1
so perhaps when the probability of a fanciful creative scenario is considered, such as tesla causing tunguska, perhaps we should talk about "occam's sledgehammer"
occam's sledg
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y'know, i actually liked that movie when it first came out, but in retrospect the damage it's done to an otherwise sound philosophical principle is unforgivable.
one more time, with emphasis: occam's razor neither proves nor solves anything! there. got it? please pass the message along.
the original form isn't even useful for comparing unrelated theories of an event, but rather for simplifying a single theory (eg, if i have a theory of why planets move in orbits involving the for
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It's just a guideline, much like Moore's "Law". There's nothing specific about it, and it can indeed be wrong. For instance early astronomers look at the sun: clearly it's a big ass ball of fire, and upon study it's made mostly out of o
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A good 350-year setback might do humanity some good, slow things down? Miniature Tesla bombs might make good at-sea weapons. But, trillions of fish will be disoriented (or, as some of the "misedumacated" military personnel prefer to say: "disorientated")...
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A good crackpot theory is difficult/impossible to disprove therefore we use a tool known as Occam's razor. Yes, yes, another poster pointed this out and you claimed OR was "philosophy not science". I am sorry to have to break this to you but science IS a (very successfull)philosophy based on the faith that there exists a "real world" independent of the observer and t
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AHHH THE BRAIN
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Phooey! (Score:2, Funny)
This is nothing but a bunch of bologna.
Dan East
Tesla connection? (Score:4, Interesting)
However, he did hear about the unexplainable event in Tunguska, and was thankful no one was killed, as it was clear to him that his death ray had overshot. He then dismantled his machine, as he felt it was too dangerous to keep it.
Re: Tesla connection? (Score:4, Informative)
Flying death ray (Score:2)
through the sky. Which is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunguska_event#Selected_eyewitness_reports [wikipedia.org]
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I guess if Franklin dicked around with a Tesla coil (were he around to do so) his franks would have plumped and boomed like shot heard round the whirled. He'd need an alchemist to cures that woe and ail..
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It didn't overshoot. Superman happened to be flying by, and he saw that the ray would cause the Arctic ice to melt, thus causing massive flooding, so with one mighty punch, he deflected it to Siberia, where it did relatively minor damage.
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He was also trying to ensure the installation of that being in the ovulum orifice in DC, that Vidiian, wraped in Kazon skin, cocooned by Talos
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Googlink (Score:5, Informative)
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The lake already existed (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:The lake already existed (Score:4, Informative)
L. V. Dzhenkoul was born in 1904, so his personal memories of the 1908 Tunguska Event are minimal. Here he is recounting what he was told by his father V[asilii?] I[l'ich] Dzhenkoul and uncle I[van] I[l'ich] Dzhenkoul (both long dead by the time of Kolobkova's 1960 interview.
It seems highly likely to me that this individual is using "the mouth of the Cheko" as a landmark that is known to him, and is not necessarily indicating that this feature was present prior to the incident.
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1) If he's using the lake's location as a reference point, he could very well say something occured "near Lake Chako" in 1960, even if that lake didn't exist in 1908. For instance, I can say that gold mining occurred in the late 19th century near Mill Creek in Washington State, that doesn't imply that the city of Mill Creek existed in the 19th century.
2) Even if the lake did exist, it's not entirely unrealistic to think that the remains of the comet/meteor/whatever could be in the lake, is i
vurdalak.com article (Score:4, Funny)
2) how rich were they?
Uni. Bologna homepage on Tunguska (Score:5, Informative)
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In Soviet Russia ... (Score:3, Funny)
In Soviet Russia, asteroid finds you.
(Bracing for mod down ...)
Nothing new, exaggerated story by Nat. Geo. (Score:2)
Either that, or National Geographic is misrepresenting his Gasperini's quotes to make a story where there isn't one.
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References, please? Also, did you read the article? It addresses the aging study performed by the initial investigators that indicated that the lake was much older than the event...
likely natural gas, not comet/asteroid/etc. (Score:4, Interesting)
Kundt W. (2001),
“The 1908 Tunguska catastrophe: An alternative explanation [ernet.in]”,
Current Science, 81: 399–407.
Kundt's paper explains the various problems with the comet/asteroid hypothesis. It also proposes an alternative hypothesis: that Tunguska was a natural gas leak (from the ground), that went on for days, building up, until ignited by a lightning strike.
This explanation seems to fit the observations well. Perhaps the main reason it has not gotten much attention is that it is not very exotic.
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You've got it all wrong (Score:2)
More Great Holes... (Score:2)
Again? (Score:2)
Besides, everyone knows Tesla did it, anyway.
The Many Enigmas of Tunguska (Score:2)
This is certainly an understatement. That event is associated with numerous unusual characteristics ...
The extraordinary power of the high-energy explosion above ground.
Repeated testimony of strange sounds before the event.
The glowing of the sky before the event.
Reports of strange weather before the event.
Reports of
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http://prometheus.al.ru/english/phisik/onichelson/onichelson.htm [prometheus.al.ru]
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I'm just here trying to raise awareness that there are multiple explanations for the mechanics of the universe. What is enigmatic within one model -- like dark matter or whatever -- makes total sense in another. It's easy to allow oneself to become consumed by History Channe
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The problem with your pseudo-skeptical logic is that neither yourself nor any of your accredited scientists h
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You're not paying attention to what's happening. We have observed MANY things that could indicate large scale charge differences. Are you familiar with "Elephant Trunks"?
(Rotating elephant trunks) http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2006A%26A...454..201G [harvard.edu]
(Helical structures in a Rosette elephant trunk) http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1998A%26A...332L...5C [harvard.edu]
(Formation of Twis
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http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2006/arch06/060206chicagofire.htm [thunderbolts.info]
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2006/arch06/060207biela.htm [thunderbolts.info]
In particular, it is especially interesting that people reported a filament connecting the two parts of Comet Biela. Filaments appear to be a dominant them
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Area51 series by Robert Doherty, trite and overdone subject, yes. However, done extremely well. And you would get how this is (while bad humor, and possibly worth an 'overrated', not 'offtopic'.
Oh, and read the damn series. They are good books.
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I for one welcome our immortal, tall, sun-allergic overlords!
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Isn't this comment on slashdot a few times a month? I remember dupes being discussed before... ;)
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Or antimatter, cosmic string, or other buzzword. (Score:2)
David Brin's 1990 novel Earth is about an artificial super-dense object, a quantum string as massive and much longer lived than a blac
"And Having Writ" was better (Score:2)
... microscopic black hole...or Ponies! (Score:2)
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Re:X-files revisited (Score:4, Funny)
The Tunguska region is one of the largest uninhabited land areas on earth. One of the few places were an explosion could level 2000 square kilometres of forest while killing no people and very few advanced animals.
In other words the perfect place for a being with thought processes similar to ours to drop a dysfunctional engine core (or something similar) before it explodes.
Now what became of that pilot, his ship and possibly his crew? Chances are they made a safe landing in another remote area and were latter picked up by the alien equivalent of "American Automobile Association". The towing charge from within our atmosphere to the nearest repair shop might have ruined their whole day though
That scenario would explain the complete lack of debris. Depending on it's construction the jettisoned portion of the engine would all be vaporised in a massive "nuclear like" explosion.
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A better place for dropping a near-detonation engine core would be the moon, which is even more uninhabited.
It is, however, a moot point, because the Tunguska explosion was caused by Tesla, and he was aiming at the north pole, but overshot a bit.
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There were people there? I never read that before. Darned. Now that towing charge doesn't bother me so much anymore. I mean it doesn't bother our hypothetical pilot anymore. sorry.
I'm just a little shaken by the loss of life. And to think we... I mean that pilot caused it.
How many people died? how big a village? Were there any survivors?
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Who said the comet/meteor/spaceship impacted anything? All that is being said is that it exploded. This could have happened for any number of reasons.
For example, suppose there was a pocket of frozen liquid hydrogen (or some other highly explosive liquid) in the interior of the object. As the object travels through the atmosphere, friction causes heat and ablation (material being eroded from the leading edge). The ablation exposes a small amount of the explosive substance, at which point the heat from the