Does Computer Use Actually Cause Carpal Tunnel? 339
BoldAC writes "A geek physician has reviewed the medical literature that explores if a relationship exists between computer use and carpal tunnel syndrome. 'Typing at the keyboard or using the mouse for hours and hours upon end just seems like it has to be horrible for your joints, right?' His conclusions certainly seem to contradict the thinking of many: 'The current research shows that computer use has very little role in causing carpal tunnel syndrome.' It even seems that both Harvard and the Journal of the American Medical Association agree with his conclusions."
Emacs Pinky (Score:5, Funny)
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No, Emacs pinky does exist, and is entirely not made up by the Evil VI Propaganda Machine. ^[:wq
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Re:Emacs Pinky (Score:5, Interesting)
"I ain't got no money" is actually entirely grammatical (from a linguistics point of view), however it fails to meet the standards of formal language that Grammar Nazis prefer.
Interestingly, it could be related to Plato's Allegory of the cave. Grammar Nazis actually understand grammar little better than the average native speaker, simply they are dogmatically bound to believe that the shadows are reality, and that the arbitrary rules they have established to explain grammar are what grammar is really about.
Those who have gotten out of the cave, and see the reality of grammar, and the entire flexibility thereof, understand better than any Grammar Nazi why the above phrase was actually grammatical. And when they would attempt to explain why it is actually grammatical (it's SVO order, it's negated, and has appropriate concordation with the negation.) the Grammar Nazi looks at his cave wall and says that those reasons don't exist, because "ain't" isn't a word, and a "double negative" would logically make a positive.
Grammar Nazis are to grammar as Chiropraters are to medicine, because neither actually really practice the science described. Rather they study fringe elements related to that science, and believe their positions to be equally valid as the actual science itself.
Indeed (Score:4, Funny)
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I had this achy pinky because of emacs... All those Ctrl key sequences had a really negative impact on my left pinky. And, when I switched to vi, it disapeared. It's probably because most sequences use both hands on vi.
When I had to use Eclipse for some java project, I started to alternate between the both control keys and to push the left one, not with the tip of the finger but with the joint. I had no problem so far for years.
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I had the same problem, but it affected the entire left side of my left hand.
However, it occurred after I switched from an NCD X-term to a PC running Windows and Reflection X. The typical position for the control key on a PC keyboard requires me to twist my entire hand to press it.
I j
er (Score:3, Funny)
Duh (Score:2)
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PORN (Score:3, Funny)
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However, since I don't have any of those things, that begs the question, from whence commeth my fricking carpal? I have some ulnar [orthoinfo.org] issues which probably stem from shoulder tension, but for the actual carpal, I get it when I have an unusually high typing month, and it goes away when I take it easy for a few weeks. Worst I ever got it, I was in college, weighing 165, livi
Re:PORN (Score:4, Interesting)
I cured what I thought was "RSI" using this "mindbody" approach:
http://www.rsi.deas.harvard.edu/handout.doc [harvard.edu]
(Coincidental that Harvard is hosting this document, maybe the researchers should look at it themselves)
Here is the Google cache [216.239.51.104] for those who don't want to open a
I suffered for 1.5 years (where I didn't work because I didn't think I could) before I found that my cure was a completely psychological approach. From my research of CTS (as well as what my doctor told me), it is completely unrelated to typing. And from my experience with "RSI" and understanding what it actually was, I no longer believe you can actually hurt yourself from typing too much.
I now type sometimes all day long without taking many breaks. I play guitar, bass, and drums. I don't worry about posture at all. Ergonomics are only a way for me to get comfortable, not to avoid injury. I have no pain at all, and don't worry about ever having "RSI" again. It's been 5 years since I cured myself.
Please read up on the approach I'm talking about here before you flame me. It actually makes sense once you put all the pieces together. You can also search for "sarno tms" to find more info.
Read the book "The Mindbody Prescription" by John E. Sarno if you can, its really the best source for an explanation of this.
Re:PORN (Score:4, Informative)
I was about to mention how your tone and your, ah, overenthusiasm might have been part of it. But I took a look at your user profile, and it looks like your only purpose here is to shill for your pet quack. FOAD, nobody owes you a civil reply.
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What you are feeling is not CT.. CT is permanent damage to your joints, caused by repetitive motion. My grandmother has it, from years of putting Merck pills into bottles.
What you ARE feeling is stressing of the elbow; I thought i had CT at one point too.. it turns out it was just from having my elbow on a wooden arm-rest. Also, it may simply be fatigue or a pulled ligiment (wh
Re: keyboard ergonomics (Score:3, Interesting)
I've suggested this to a number of coworkers, and it has reduced their wrist pain in most cases. Obviously your experience is different... people's bodies can vary
Re:PORN (Score:4, Interesting)
The problem is that if data entry, or general computer use can be attributed to carpel tunnel, then there is a lot of liability large companies would be responsible for. It wouldn't surprise me if this isn't one of those "paid for results" studies. I have no proof in saying it is, I'm not saying that it is, just that I wouldn't be surprised to find out it was. There is big money in work related injuries and disproving them. A company that could get lower rates and not have to payout for something directly related to the job would save a bundle if they didn't have to worry about it.
As for my friend, her job and working 12-15 hours a day 4 days straight with 2 days off in between was the only repetitive work she did that was associated with carpel tunnel. When going to her family doctor, he was convinced it was the computer work. He eventually put her on working restrictions of 8 hour days, the pain and problems were relieved to some degree and she was eventually fired and had to find a new job. This actually worked out in her benifit because the job she found after that paid almost twice as much, had reasonable hours and the company paid "employee insurance program" took care of the carpel tunnel 8 months later. As far as I know, she hasn't had issues with it ever since and does more in her off time then even when she had the old job.
I think there is a reason they call carpel tunnel a repetitive stress injury. Maybe the article is correct in that if certain limits are in place, there is no correlation. But I doubt that outside those settings it could be true. People like you and my friend sort of show it to be otherwise. I think going from 12-15 hour days to 8 hour days with regular breaks helped her a lot. But she still needed to have something sniped to end everything.
PORN (Score:3, Funny)
I know of one action... (Score:2)
I have CTS (Score:5, Funny)
My GP insists that my CTS has nothing to do with my years of computer use, and that in fact it will be good post-op physio.
Still, I'm having one hand done at a time so that I can still manage one handed browsing.
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Re:I have CTS (Score:4, Interesting)
So, he's right, and you're kind of right. The CTS was not caused by your computer use, but your computer use certainly did aggrevate it.
PS. I was about to applaud you for being the first "non-porn" post until your last line. *sigh*
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However, I will admit to providing the opportunity to those that chose to took it, before I saw all the other smutty comments.
Sorry.
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Just because a woman is sick and tired of sexual jokes makes her fat? Well, crap, we need to redefine "fat" then, because I have a BMI of 18.3 If you're wondering, that's supermodel range.
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If you weigh to little , you might have trouble getting pregnant.
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I agree whole-heartedly. It has always been my line of thinking that your chances of having Carpal Tunnel Syndrome are greatly increased by having Carpal Tunnels.
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"Forty percent of work place injuries are attributed to carpal tunnel syndrome. We should sue computer makers and mouse makers! Make these horrible input devices illegal! Right? "
How much you wanna bet that the major funders of this research were somehow related to computer makers and mouse makers?
Bull-fucking-shit (Score:3, Insightful)
Then how the hell did changing to an ergonomic keyboard and trackball stop the excruciating pain in my wrists that I experienced when using my old keyboard and mouse?
Technically speaking, I probably had tendinitis rather than carpal tunnel. Still, it's rather upsetting when you tell your doctor you have RSI and he doesn't have a clue what your talking about. God damn medical racket.
Re:Bull-fucking-shit (Score:5, Insightful)
Because you were naturally predisposed to an RSI, and and ergonomic keyboard makes things easier on your wrists once they have been inflammed by an RSI. An ergonomic keyboard is not necessary for all people, as not all people are predisposed to RSI, and that's why you have the code monkeys who sit at their computer for hours, and don't develop any RSI at all.
The only reason why CTS and RSIs appear to be more common in computer users is because we're more likely to aggrevate the situation. It's not that we have more CTS and RSIs, it's because the effect is significantly more pronounced.
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The only reason why CTS and RSIs appear to be more common in computer users is because we're more likely to aggrevate the situation.
And some people smoke till they're 90 and don't get cancer, yet there doesn't seem to be any confusion about what's causing what there.
Re:Bull-fucking-shit (Score:5, Insightful)
Unlike smoking, where lung cancer susceptability is likely in the high 90's of precentile, CTS susceptability is very low. Most people will not get CTS no matter how much they use a computer, whereas most people will get lung cancer from smoking.
The difference is in the likelihood rate, even though both of them are fairly equally the same thing. (Triggering a susceptability.)
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More
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Do any of these apply?
rheumatoid arthritis, menopause, hypothyroidism, acromegaly, end-stage renal disease, pregnancy, and obesity
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My comment was directed at the medical industry as a whole rather than the RSI specific segment. My experience has been that they charge outrageous prices while often providing worse service than half an hour of googling.
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Computer use, especially gaming... (Score:2)
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Same keyboard I use. One product line they managed to get right. Now if only I could make all those extra buttons work in X.
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There are different flavors of RSI. CTS is a pinched nerve in the carpal tunnel in the wrist that makes your hand tingly and numb. I assumed my problem was tendinitis since my only symptom was pain. All the doctors I saw were too incompetent to tell me anything but "Well, you're not crying in agony, so obviously there's nothing wrong with you," but I'm not bitter or anything.
One more thing (Score:5, Funny)
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Stepmania (Score:2)
I had carpal tunnel (Score:2)
I agree (Score:4, Insightful)
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This statement isn't supported by current scientific knowledge. Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myopia [wikipedia.org]
"Near work has been implicated as a contributing factor to myopia in some studies, but refuted in others."
Personally, I read voraciously, and have stared at a monitor 8+ hours per day for about 20 years. I have no nearsight
Bullshit (Score:5, Informative)
I have RSI (Repetitive Stress Injuries) and my carpal tunnel is just fine. It's the other nerves, tendons, and muscles of my hands which ache and cause the severe pain. If you try and explain this to people they just say 'Carpal Tunnel Syndrome' unless they're a doctor. Computer use DOES cause RSI which is the real problem, and a really painful and dangerous thing. Other tasks, sewing for instance, can also cause RSI. The phenomenon is not new.
How the carpal tunnel got so famous I don't know, but the term has stuck.
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Re:Bullshit (Score:5, Informative)
I'm completely serious. I had the same problem as you, diagnosed as tendinitis in the backs of my hands, and it made typing at a keyboard all day extremely painful. Physical therapy for two months, twice a week helped immensely and I learned a number of exercises that I can do at my desk that eliminate the pain entirely, if not all of the tension. I'll have to do the exercises for the rest of my life (or stop using my hands for a few straight months and let them rest and heal finally), but they're ten minutes a day and not hard. Physical therapy may be expensive if you can't get it covered under your health insurance/worker's comp, but it's a cost you have to pay now in order to not be suffering for the rest of your life. It's absolutely worth it.
Plus, for any of you who have gone to a general practitioner who was entirely clueless about RSI, go see an orthopedic surgeon. That was my GP's recommendation and it was spot on. The surgeon knew exactly what sort of damage might have been caused, knew how to check whether it was muscle/tendon damage or nerve damage, and was the one who referred me to the physical therapist. Your GP isn't necessarily clueless, but he or she is a generalist. A specialist will (hopefully) have a lot better understanding of the specific problems and possible solutions that RSI entails.
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Consumer Reports (Score:5, Informative)
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Depends on your position (Score:5, Informative)
1) 11 hours straight of Everquest - no pain from mouse or keyboard
2) 6 hours of Quake (back in the day) - no pain from mouse or keyboard
3) 20 minutes of mouse use at odd angle (but not so odd as to say other people wouldn't use a mouse like this) - back of hand starting hurting
4) Couple days of keyboard and mouse use on bad desk setup (keyboard high, forearms rest on edge of desk, etc) - shoulder and elbow pain.
I know what my body does and doesn't like. Relaxed shoulders, no reaching for the mouse, etc.
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Is this carpel tunnel or RSI? Or something else?
As an aside, I didn't believe that these problems existed until my late 20's, when I started experiencing them after a lifetime of the same pattern of computer use.
Carpal Tunnel != Repetitive strain. (Score:2, Informative)
Computer work decreases blood flow to the wrist. In the absence of complementary activities that increase blood flow to the wrist, computer users are at risk of RSI.
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My Owner Beats Me (Score:3, Funny)
Meaningless Anecdote (Score:2)
I hurt my wrist playing volleyball and the inflammation that I had caused the median nerve to be squeezed and gave me some nice Carpal Tunnel symptoms. I had never had problems with this before, but it seemed to get worse after the injury with computer use and would not heal. I had never had a problem with mouse use before so this was really frustrating.
I
Driving (Score:5, Interesting)
I think it's a serious confounding variable, that most office workers have those two things in common: significant time spent driving a car, and typing on computer keyboards.
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I really think stress is the real culprit. Unfortuna
constant typing on a keyboard... (Score:2)
porn leads to chronic masturbation
chronic masturbation leads to carpal tunnel syndrome
so yes, computer use actually causes carpal tunnel, but not through the mechanism in question
you could test this theory by testing a corollary of it: computer use leading to more penises that curve to the right. most people are right handed and some have a bad death grip masturbation style, so chronic masturbation sometimes causes peyronie's disease [wikipedia.org] (as well as lo
My observation... hardly scientific (Score:2, Insightful)
He's just fudging the issue (Score:2)
Doesn't change the fact people who use mice, keyboards and posture in a certain way end up with CTS.
A totally random anecdotal example: I use mouse. After 10 years, CTS. Bought Wacom, no pain, use mouse, pain, use wacom, no pain, use mouse, pain.
After year of exclusive wacom usage, no pain with mouse nor wacom. After using
Cause? to what confidence level? (Score:2)
But what appears undeniable is that if someone is sensitive or already suffering from CT, then some computer use can aggravate it. Especially mouse use from poorly designed programs. Some are just have horrible ergo, and my wrists will ache after an hours' use. Normally, I can type all day long.
Hush (Score:4, Funny)
Wait until the companies have settled up and gone bankrupt. Then let it slip quietly that the whole thing wasn't true -- just like they did with the silicone gel breast-implant cases. Those were found to be harmless after the lawyers got paid.
My Personal Story (Score:5, Interesting)
What I believe is going on is that CTS/RSI pain is not caused by doing one thing too often or putting your body in one position too often. Instead, it's caused by not doing other things often enough or putting your body in other positions often enough. I don't have any proof of that except for my own personal experience and the experiences of others that I've told, but those seem to indicate that bad posture/ergonomics can be counteracted by regular exercise of the affected area.
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I agree. I've been programming (mostly cmd line style) for almost 15 years straight and the 3 or 4 times i get to the rock gym are excellent relievers for poor posture, store joints, etc.
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I had a similar experience (Score:2)
Let me tell you.... (Score:2)
Another potential cause discounted (Score:2)
I smell (Score:2)
Guy is wacko. (Score:2)
Most computer users have the option of shifting their chair and keyboard positions, they tend to be okay. It's people that are stuck with 8 hrs a day of one keyboard position that are harder hit.
A friend of mine got a bad case of CTS after a month long binge of using the original IBM PC keyboard, you remember the click-clacker model. It's taken over 15 years for it to subside somewhat.
Pregnancy is a disease? (Score:3, Interesting)
Yeah, there are a couple of points in those fifteen year-old articles which are sort of interesting. --That if you have arthritis, then you may be at higher risk. (Duh. --Though such points are important to medical insurance companies; if you have a prior condition, then you aren't going to be covered for your injuries.)
In any case, I don't really see why articles published fifteen years ago when RMI's were still a relatively new and misunderstood concept are suddenly worth getting upset over. It might be that the editor isn't too swift. . .
"Classically the associated diseases are the following: rheumatoid arthritis, menopause, hypothyroidism, acromegaly, end-stage renal disease, pregnancy, and obesity. Even then the data is not clear that the repetitive use contributes any."
Menopause is a disease? Pregnancy is a disease? No. But ending a sentence with the word 'any' is evidence of poor journalistic skill.
Seriously, the original claim looks like science making the classic mistake; if the lab can't explain a phenomenon, then obviously the observers out there in the public are at fault. It's swamp gas or hysteria, (menopause?). Or indeed, maybe the money funding the studies came from corporations worried about having to pay out on medical claims. Who knows? What I do know is that if you use your hands in certain sitting-at-desk work for long enough without breaks, your wrists and joints start to hurt and your back and neck can get messed up, and the skin can even wear right off the parts of your hands rubbing against the desk / paper, etc. --I knew an animator who ruined her hands trying to meet a crazy deadline with a crazy amount of work and ended up smearing blood across her easel. She was unable to work for several months afterwards. But then I suppose we can just blame her chronic condition (being female) rather than repetitive motion stress for the injury.
What a silly article.
-FL
Poor form... (Score:2, Interesting)
Similarly, are your wrists flat or does your hand
The ergonomics of everyday things (Score:2)
At work, your pen is the wrong size for your hand [cajunpen.com]. Your water is too far and too low. The elevator buttons are stiff, and you can't tell when the ATM buttons (membrane keyboard) have triggered.
Many of our everyday objec
It's like root canal. (Score:2)
using the computer might not actually give you CTS in the first place.
Kinda like root canal. Someone asked me if it hurt to have root canal.
Well, I had a good dentist and my answer was "having root canal performed
was uncomfortable, but not painful. NEEDING root canal in the first place
was painful!"
My own personal observations agree! (Score:2)
I Don't Think So... (Score:2)
News just in (Score:3, Insightful)
Anonymous Article = Insurance Company FUD (Score:3, Interesting)
Funny how we can't check out the author to see if he (or she) is really a shill for the workers' comp insurance companies, not unlike the shills for Exxon who deny that the planet is getting warmer.
Ever been to a trial of a personal injury case? There are plenty of orthopedic physicians who will, for a buck, testify that Joe Plaintiff wasn't really crippled, or even hurt, in the accident that totalled his car.
The shill orthopedists live in great, big houses up on the hill.
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You kn
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As well as menopause:
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Presumably pregnancy forces the arms out to the sides, thus bringing the hands in toward the keyboard at a wider angle which is compensated in the wrist and causes trouble. Probably it's also true that obesity can do that which would account for its presence in the list. (But being too skinny isn't in the list even though logically it might well be a problem for some people.)
As for menopause ... beats me.
You're right. The list looks like an ar
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Apparently pregnancy and menopause are "diseases." I also fail to see how it makes any sense to consider those conditions as ones that would "predispose" an individual to carpal tunnel. Have there been peer-reviewed studies showing a causation there or something?
I am guessing it was the writer of the website article that lumped them together with diseases and that the journal would have classified them as "conditions".
Many pregnant women experience generalized swelling, especially noticeable in the ankle and wrists. Presumably that swelling could cause CTS. Anecdotally, I knew of a women who developed practically crippling CTS while pregnant and as far as I know she wasn't doing any intensive computer work at the time. I don't know if menopausal women go throug
Re:Not actually computer use that causes it... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Not actually computer use that causes it... (Score:4, Interesting)
FWIW, I found that switching the mouse to the left hand for a month and then alternating every couple of weeks made all my arm pain go away. It takes a day or two to get used to using the mouse in the off-hand, but was well worth it for me.
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I do think having the CTRL key way down in the penalty corner (literally the most difficult place for your fingers to reach on a normal keyboard outside of useless multimedia keys) is a major detriment to using EMACS. IMHO anybody who seriously uses it should remap capslock to control and save themselves considerable pain.