Germs Taken Into Space May Come Back Deadlier 137
westlake writes "Sounds like the plot for a B-movie, doesn't it? Germs go into space and come back stronger and deadlier than ever. Except, it really happened. In a medical experiment, salmonella carried about the space shuttle in the fall of 2006 proved far more lethal to lab mice than their earth-bound source. 90% dead vs. 60% dead in twenty-six days, with half the mice dying at 1/3 the oral dose. Apparently 167 genes in the space-evolved strain had changed. The likely cause: In microgravity the force of fluids passing over the cells is low, similar to conditions in the gastrointestinal tract, and the cells adapted quickly to the new environment."
conditions outside the body (Score:5, Interesting)
Also: if the new germs are really more well-adapted (ic better at multiplying and spreading), wouldn't they have evolved like that on earth? Especially since the evolutionary step is apparently small enough to be attained by a limited colony in a very limited time?
Re:conditions outside the body (Score:5, Funny)
Re:conditions outside the body (Score:5, Funny)
Isn't it entirely probable, nay likely even that an old Soviet bioweapons satellite is going to crash sometime with germs that will reanimate the dead on a large scale?
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Mutation tends to be more random than not, so you are likely to get organisms that cannot actually DO anything useful (assuming making zombies is useful) or lack any particular advantage over the original species. In fact they may be sterile or weakened.
Irradiated flesh doesn't turn into the Hulk or glow or becom
Re:conditions outside the body (Score:5, Funny)
Irradiated flesh doesn't turn into the Hulk or glow or become self-intelligent. No. It just dies
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- RG>
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I mean look at what they do to nerds!
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You must be new here. What about politicians, lawyers and such ? When can I expect them to die off ?
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No, the germs don't necessarily die. There are plenty of diseases that can be transmitted from a dead body. That's how humans get mad cow disease from eating beef, for example.
Now, like the GP poster said, if germs actually evolved the ability to control the dead, they could animate the dead body to actively seek out new, live hosts. Th
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Re:conditions outside the body (Score:5, Interesting)
Not necessarily. Evolution is like a simple hill-climbing algorithm in computer programming. It blindly heads in any upward direction without any way of knowing if it will get stuck at the top of a small hill when there is a much bigger hill right next to it. It is unnatural for it to go back downhill (to weaken itself) on purpose to look for bigger hills to climb. But changes to the environment distort the landscape, in some cases turning hills into valleys and forcing life to climb back up or die out.
So most likely the germs had their little hill turned upside down in micro-gravity and were forced to climb up to the top of a new one. Their landscape got turned upside down again when they came back down to Earth, and they ended up finding a bigger hill than the one they started on.
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and i can see now why people want to apply evolution to economics. much the same stuff is going on there.
but unlike evolution, there are some that are willing to take a short-time weakening based on the prospects of long term victory.
Re:conditions outside the body (Score:4, Funny)
That is, unless someone believes in sentient bacteria or a divine hand of an intelligent God/gods guiding evolution. Anything left to chance and trial will ultimately only rarely see a trade of a short-term negative for a long-term positive, because it would have to happen by chance and without conscious effort.
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But evolution is kind of sneaky in that it tends to borrow something used for one purpose and re-purpose it for another. This allows it to take unexpected leaps.
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Yeah. Fins became arms and wings.
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Perhaps evolution should upgrade to simulated annealing [wikipedia.org] instead of simple hill climbing and greedy algorithms.
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Exactly, What's More (Score:2, Interesting)
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Organisms Change Randomly (Score:1, Interesting)
Organisms aquire their specific survival skills by DNA mutation or recombination, or absorbing other organisms (see mitochodrion). Evolution theory does not explain why favorable changes happen; they are just "happy acciden
Amen to that (Score:5, Interesting)
This is something like Rule n1 when dealing with epidemiology.
And something that is systematically neglected when the media try to instill mass hysteria about some latest bug.
Compare :
- Plague : kills, but slowly, and very good at transmission - did decimate population.
- Spanish flu : was deadly, but did spread very easily (specially at a post-war time with limited availability of medical means) - did kill quite a few people.
With :
- Ebola : violently deadly in an almost "B movie gore"-style, but sucks at transmission (kills to fast. The virus has almost no time to leave the host before killing it) - never became a widespread disease.
- Avian flu : it was severe in the handful few people who caught it (although one may contest that those people were mostly in developing country and thus had limited access to medical means) BUT it's far from effecient when it comes to transmission (it's a birds' disease, damn it) one must almost live everyday with and almost sleep with chickens to catch it - hasn't been epidemic yet, and won't be, at least not until it mixes with human viruses (not very likely to happen quickly on a large scale).
- Mad cow disease : kills slowly (brain slowly becomes a sponge) but has one of the most improbable mecanism of transmission (one must eat brain or brain derivative) - never was a widespread disease (at least outside cannibal communities).
And same will happen with lysteria-from-outer-space : Yes, it kills mice efficiently. But basically it has changed. It has traded characteristics that where good in surviving on earth, for characteristic that are good for microgravity, and that happen to be good for the intestine too. Thus it will probably completely suck at propagating.
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Not really surprising, and unlikely to apply for all microorganisms.
"Space Bugs are Deadlier!" makes a better headline though.
Re:conditions outside the body (Score:5, Interesting)
Why?
"That's the 64 million dollar question," Nickerson said. "We do not know with 100 percent certainty what the mechanism is of space flight that's inducing these changes."
However, they think it's a force called fluid shear.
More importantly, it seems like every other article answers the "64 million dollar question." The answer:
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I know... (Score:4, Funny)
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Blob... (Score:2)
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Vonnegut (Score:5, Interesting)
Mutations (Score:2)
What's the policy for de-bugging astronauts, anyway?
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Same as any other de-bug problem. Blame Microsoft and hope for a patch.
But seriously... I know there's some post flight isolation probably accompanied by standard physicals and rehabilitation for those that underwent extended stays in space. My guess is they're relatively thorough, but if if the astronauts are harboring something that isn't detected and they don't show any symptoms it could be a "bad thing." With all the isolation and health checks
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Are the astronauts wearing protective gear when working with bacterial experiments? I can't recall ever reading this, or seeing a photo . . .
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No immune system = no training against one, too ! (Score:5, Insightful)
It works the other way too. The outer-space-bacteria has lived and mutated in an environment without or with very few defensive system, to which it normally needs to adapt to handle them and manage to survive and proliferate. Thus the bacteria doesn't get a chance to keep it's knowledge in surviving when it come back to earth.
It's most likely to get pwnd by the first antibody or marcophage it encounters.
This lysteria is an exception because the microgravity environment it was evolving in was actually *closer* to the target environment (human gut) that the places where it usually lives. And then, as the first-poster pointed out, you have a bacteria that is quick to kill lab mice, but will probably suck at transmission because it has traded away its capacity to survive in normal environment.
People are usually marvelled at the incerdible diversity that is brought by evolution. But there's another possible point of view. Whenever some species specialize into something, it's actually losing functions : at least it is losing its polyvalence and ability to survive in diverse environment.
One may consider the human as the pinnacle of evolution given all what we managed to achieve. Or we may consider the humans as a profoundly degenerate species, that has lost its ability to survive in most environment. that is hugely dependent on resources it can't produce anymore but must hunt. We've become so much fragile and incapable biologically, that we had to develop some intelligence to be able to circumvent those short comings. As opposed to a bacteria that can just grow and reproduce in a much wider set of environment without needing to grow a pair of arms to be able to do it.
This pessimistic point of view may be useful sometimes to explain or predict some phenomenon :
- like mass exctinctions
- like why the plain simple cockroaches seem to be better at surviving than mighty dinosaurs
- like what will probably happen to the outer-space-mutant-bugs
- like why intelligent design proponents are wrong with their fundamental concept of "irreductible complexity". It's not complexity, it's actually very weird, funny and circonvoluted side effects of something that was initially a simplification.
Re:No immune system = no training against one, too (Score:2)
That is, if we examine a single human being with the IQ of a bacterium. On the other hand, being smart enough to form complex societies and use available resources in non-obvious ways (without going through the tenuous process of evolving biologically or forming an instinctual behaviour) is a survival tactic as much as being extremely small and simple. We have low- and high-tech soci
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Incineration tends to work reasonably well.
Well... (Score:1, Funny)
Re:Well... (Score:5, Insightful)
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One Giant Virus for Mankind (Score:5, Funny)
This plague that has killed millions of people, primarily among homosexual men, perhaps originated in a tiny canister of testosterone-pumped men trapped in a tiny metal can thousands of miles from Earth, with only each other to turn to in conditions of unprecedented stress and lonliness.
Yep, it does sound like the plot from a B movie - by John Waters.
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Yeah, but no. (Score:4, Informative)
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At any rate, perhaps that makes the moon theory still viable.
How carefully did *you* read it? (Score:3, Informative)
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better article here I think (Score:2)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/24/AR2007092401470.html [washingtonpost.com]
Isn't it obvious? (Score:1)
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Emphasis on 'may' here (Score:2)
Of course, there's only one way to find out for sure. I volunteer CmdrTaco.
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The earth-bound lab mice were given oral doses of the mutated salmonella - which seemed to thrive in the similar environment of the intestinal tract.
I would personally find it worrying that anything so common and adaptable as salmonella would return so dramatically more lethal after no more than two weeks in space.
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It doesn't really make any difference. All the experiment really shows is that:
1) Grow bacteria
2) Alter environment
3) Change gene expression (via mutation, removal of suppression, whatever biologic mechanism you'd propose)
4) Write grant proposal (the 64 million dollar question - that's one hell of a grant)
5) Profit!
Doing it in space is even way cooler than doing it on the Internet. I
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Bacteria. (Score:4, Funny)
I for one welcome our mutated Moneran overlords.
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I'm confused. I though the WHO is on the other side of the battle.
Is this it? (Score:1)
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Umm, no. This is public information. Secrets are the part we don't know.
Can't they make up their minds? (Score:1)
Let me be the first.... (Score:2)
I have to refer back to this... (Score:1)
Its the only way to be sure. [slashdot.org]
Deadlier? I say- Neutered! (Score:1)
Ok.. so the cells adapted to microgravity, and likely LOST the ability to deal with full gravity scenarios..... THUS, on return- they will not be able to function in full gravity.. as their 'evolution' while in space didn't require it...
YES- they may be deadly WHILE in space- as they adapt quicker than the mammals--
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Gamma Rays!!! (Score:1)
evolution is a lie! (Score:2)
Enough of that blasphemous devil-talk! The reason the germs became deadlier is that they were brought closer to the Intelligent Designer in the Sky. Since He could see them more clearly up there, he was able to design them even better!
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Of course, since the ID can't see to design them...
So THAT'S what happened with Jason X! (Score:4, Funny)
http://imdb.com/title/tt0211443/ [imdb.com]
"Evil Gets an Upgrade." Man, so ahead of its time.
However (Score:2)
This may be true, but remember that, from the salmonella's point of view, the object isn't to kill its host.
The goal is to reproduce and spread. Therefore I predict this salmonella would quickly evolve back to the slightly more dormant variety, and rather quickly.
The bacteria isn't "winning" by killing it's host faster and faster and faster. This is a disadvantageous mutation from the bacteria's point of view . One needn't worry about it "getting into the wild".
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Collateral damage.
The Black Plague killed one third of the human population of Europe. The fleas that were the primary carriers of the disease - its true hosts - were in no great danger as a species.
Weaponised virus (Score:2)
Evilution (Score:3, Funny)
But evolution is impossible! The Kansas school board told me so. This must be another NASA conspiracy like the fake moon landings.
Clarification Please (Score:2)
Surely the article is being sloppy with its wording, yes?
Germs (Score:2, Funny)
Thank god! (Score:1)
This is... (Score:1)
The next terror plot? (Score:2)
for the clueless or paranoid out there...yes, this is a joke
The only way to be sure (Score:2)
Makes you wonder... (Score:1)
...what would happen if we sent Arnold Schwarzenegger with the next space shuttle, and he came back a few months later!
Oh wait, "germs", not "germans".
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So we still have a chance for Zombies?! (Score:1)
I mis-read the subject... (Score:1)
Sequel (Score:2)
It doesn't make sense... (Score:1)
So the Nazis have a base on the moon after all? (Score:2)
oh, wait a minute...
The movie is called Andromeda Strain (1971) (Score:1)
Germans (Score:2)
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Furthermore, I refuse to click on the link for fear of destroying the image I've already made in my mind, I wanna cling to this one.
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