Gamma Rays From Thunderclouds

KentuckyFC sends us a report of gamma rays detected at a Japanese nuclear plant, whose origin was thunderclouds high overhead (abstract, article PDF). The theory is that showers of electrons caused by cosmic rays, when they encounter the high electric fields present in thunderstorm clouds, can be accelerated to energies above 10 MeV and result in bremsstrahlung photons detectable on the ground.

Nature's own linear accelerator!

[atomicthumbs]

Just fling electrons at the blue planet where the electricity is, and see if you can hit the little dust-specks. Like billiards! Anyway, it's fun to know that each time there's a thunderstorm, and a random electron flies in from somewhere in the universe, you're getting bombarded with braking radiation. Although, considering that I'm doing experiments with X-rays in my garage, I probably shouldn't worry about that. :) also, first post (if my calculations are correct).

Re:

[bergeron76]

This may explain why people with solar panels experience small peaks when cloud edges first hit their panels.

I forget what the term for it is in the Solar community (cloud edge, or something).

I suspect that the biggest consequence of this

[The_mad_linguist]

Is that five or six months down the line, the Incredible Hulk will start controlling electricity.

Re:I suspect that the biggest consequence of this

[Spudtrooper]

It's getting cloudy. You wouldn't like me when it's cloudy.

Or Lightning Fusing Hydrogen?

[DumbSwede]

Or possibly the fusion of deuterium/hydrogen in rain water by lightning?

I actually posted an article about this back in 2005. Lightning Fusion And Other Hot News [slashdot.org]

Re:

[atomicthumbs]

So would that mean that the Z-Machine at Sandia National Labs imitates nature, or the other way around?

Re:

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, fusion should produce fast neutrons, not gamma rays.

Not so simple

[DumbSwede]

And neutrons will crash into other nuclei and there will be secondary fissions and fusions. Neither fission nor fusion is an entirely straight forward reaction with only one set of byproducts. Muon catalyzed fusion produces gamma rays directly.

Our own star the Sun produces gamma rays from the PP-I fusion chain 4 1H 1 4He + 2 positrons + 2 neutrinos + 2 gamma rays The by-products provide the source of luminosity: * Positrons: anti-electrons (e+) - collide with electrons (e-) * Neutrinos: rapidly escape from the star * Gamma rays (photons): travel outwards through star interacting many times with atomic gas. Energy is also provided by the PP-II and PP-III chains

Re:

[deglr6328]

mhmm. except that the mechanism provided by this study is vastly more plausable and the older paper claiming neutrons from fusion in lightning were never published in a reputable journal, let alone replicated by any one else.

Re:

[mako1138]

Fusion in storm clouds would produce fast neutrons, which have a very low probability of colliding with anything. Their mean free path in normal atmosphere is huge. You wouldn't expect to be able to localize them (or their products) to a single thundercloud/storm, given the small numbers produced.

Re:

[Fyz]

Very funny. Get back to work!!!

Re:

[khallow]

Then gamma ray production should be in sync with lightning strikes. The article you cited way back when would seem to support this interpretation.

Re:

[Hoi Polloi]

It is a good thing I added a lead foil hat to my tin foil one.

Where's An Evil Overlord When You Need One?

[STrinity]

This is going to make the best James Bond movie ever.

Re:

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:

[Kagura]

It's like a car wreck. You just can't look away.

Re:

[pln2bz]

It's like a car wreck. You just can't look away.

There have been several important points in time within the history of science where the mainstream went wrong. I won't go into all of them here, but there is one in particular that people on Slashdot tend to be just completely clueless on: the interpretation of ancient documents through the context of uniformitarianism produces absolute nonsense. We have a wealth of materials to work with that range from astronomical recordings to mythological stories and e

Re:

[MLopat]

You know this has been proven false by more than a few people more than a few times over? Do a search for yourself and save the embarrassment of spewing someone else's literary diarrhea. For anyone that took the time to read the comment above, this theory is easily dismissed by the fact that electrons flowing TO the sun have NEVER been detected with the explanation from the believers of the electric model being "we're not looking hard enough"

Re:

[Planesdragon]

this theory is easily dismissed by the fact that electrons flowing TO the sun have NEVER been detected with the explanation from the believers of the electric model being "we're not looking hard enough"

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't we have NO way to detect electrons that don't strike normal matter? As in, if I send a stream of electrons 10 meters away from you in your spaceship, aren't you completely oblivious to what I did if I missed?

We also haven't detected one species splitting into two -- does th

Re:

[niklask]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't we have NO way to detect electrons that don't strike normal matter? As in, if I send a stream of electrons 10 meters away from you in your spaceship, aren't you completely oblivious to what I did if I missed?

You are wrong. Electrons in magnetic fields radiate synchrotron radiation and wee know that the Solar system and the Milky Way is pervaded by magnetic fields.

Re:

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:

[pln2bz]

You know this has been proven false by more than a few people more than a few times over?

Are you referring to Tim Thompson's critique of The Electric Sun Theory? That's been rebutted ...

http://www.electric-cosmos.org/Rejoinder.htm [electric-cosmos.org]

Do a search for yourself and save the embarrassment of spewing someone else's literary diarrhea.

I've been "searching" for a year now, and I'm fairly familiar with the debate. Contrary to your own assertion, there is a debate here. Many people will actually be surprised to learn

Re:

[pln2bz]

You don't need to fall back on the electric universe theory to explain lightning

No, then what are Sprites?

The Lorentz force has been long and well established, and lightning is caused by the transport of charged particles by convection. It occurs in a net neutral, electrically closed system, the exact opposite of what EU claims.

Then why do we see it occasionally going into space? Why would lightning be traveling outside of your electrically closed system?

But since you bring up EU once again (and in a much

Re:

[mefein]

Terrestrial Gamma-ray Flashes were discovered in 1994 by BATSE - a space based experiment that operated in the 90's. They are quite common (several per day). It is amazing that there are such efficient accelerators in the Earths atmosphere.

GLAST [nasa.gov], is a new gamma-ray mission which will launch early next year and will have the capability to measure TGFs up to much higher energies -- so we will get to really understand the acceleration mechanism. Both instruments on GLAST are designed to observe the celes

I thought the atmosphere was opaque to gamma rays

[Beryllium Sphere(tm)]

The gamma ray observatories have to be in orbit. How is someone on the ground detecting gamma rays?

Re:I thought the atmosphere was opaque to gamma ra

[mikael]

scintillation crystals

Apparently the border guards are having problems telling the difference between kitty litter and enrich uranium [nature.com]

Re:I thought the atmosphere was opaque to gamma ra

[Ambitwistor]

There are ground based gamma ray detectors (Google [google.com]). They don't detect the gamma rays directly, but rather the showers as the gamma rays interact with molecules in the atmosphere.

Re:

[jd]

Google is a gamma ray detector? Well, I suppose they would index high energy radiation - they index everything else.

Re:I thought the atmosphere was opaque to gamma ra

[FunkyRider]

Isn't that what makes your films exposed? oh wait...

Some numbers

[Wilson_6500]

A basic calculation indicates that as many as 0.7-3% of 10 MeV gammas could make it down from 2000 m. Put another way, any gamma headed for their detector will make it there about that percentage of the time. Starting with a high flux could mean that a significant number of gammas make it to the scintillators, which can trigger off of relatively small numbers of photons.

That having been said, 2000m is the lower end of the altitude range (as I understand it) for storm clouds, and my calculation assumed dry air at sea level. The attenuation of photons does go up pretty sharply as you get to energies less than 10 MeV, as well.

Re:

[Detritus]

Relatively opaque. 100 meters of atmosphere (sea level) will absorb about 50% of the gamma rays.

This is new ?????

[Anonymous Coward]

I have chaired sessions at meetings of the American Geophysical Union where this topic was discussed - over ten years ago!

THe Stanford radio science group is very active in modelling runaway electron acceleration such as this. In addition to gamma rays, free neutrons can also be produced.

Re:

[jddj]

In addition to gamma rays, free neutrons can also be produced.

If I order a couple cases, is there a shipping charge?

Popping light bulbs and flat batteries

[mikael]

I guess that explains why my light bulbs keep popping and the batteries in my remote controls keep going flat whenever there's stormy weather.

Re:

[st1d]

>>>I guess that explains why my light bulbs keep popping and the batteries in my remote controls keep going flat whenever there's stormy weather.

***Occam's Razor Unsheathed***

Keep them out of the drink!

***Occam's Razor Sheathed*** :)

Bump that story!

[GISGEOLOGYGEEK]

The story so nice, they posted it twice. ... and still only 23 comments.

Re:

[Wonko the Sane]

Unless they originate from a nuclear field, they are still x-rays

I've never heard that definition of gamma radiation before. By convention photons are usually classified by energy: radio, microwave, infrared, visible, ultraviolet, x-ray. But really, a photon is a photon. It is all "gamma radiation"

Depends on who you're talking to.

[Wilson_6500]

It's really one of those jargon-related things that happen so often in physics. Your average physicist uses "intensity" in ways that make optical scientists rip their hair out, since in optics intensity has a very specific definition. In the same vein, radiation scientists reserve "gamma" to describe photons originating from nuclear processes. Physicists in other specializations generally just go by energy because gammas tend to be higher in energy than X-rays. It's not necessarily the case though.

Re:

[imsabbel]

Well, you learn something new everyday.

The border between x-rays and gamma isnt defined by energy.

There are gamma decays with only a few 10s of keV (just take any mösbauer experiment), and there are
x-rays in the many 100keV range (Uranium K-line, High energy undulators at the higher electron energy synchrotrons like SPring8, ESRF or APS).

For that reason in the range between 10keV and 1MeV, to avoid confusion, stuff is usually named by how it is made.
Although to be fair, starting at multi-MeV, the disti

Re:

[Wonko the Sane]

I understand that the distinction is useful to somebody, in certain cases. But as far as I know the only distinguishing characteristic of a photon is its energy. Are you saying that an instrument could tell the difference between a cosmic ray @ 1 MeV and a fission gamma @ 1 MeV?

Re:They are X-rays, not gamma rays

[ceoyoyo]

Yup. The cosmic ray usually isn't a photon, it's a particle of some type that slams into the atmosphere and turns into a bunch of other particles, which slam into the atmosphere some more and eventually turn into some sort of photon. That is opposed to the gamma ray which IS a photon.

Re:

[Wonko the Sane]

You replay doesn't answer the question I was trying to ask. Obviously you can distinguish between a gamma and a neutron, beta, alpha, positron, etc.

Do two gammas at the exact same energy have any way to distinguish them based on their origin?

Re:

[Bloodoflethe]

I think you didn't get him. Either that or you need to define the sources of your "different" gamma rays at the same energy.

Re:

[ceoyoyo]

Are you saying that an instrument could tell the difference between a cosmic ray @ 1 MeV and a fission gamma @ 1 MeV?

I guess you didn't succeed in asking the question you wanted to.

The answer to your new question is that, no, you can't distinguish a gamma ray from a gamma ray when they both have the exact same energy -- they are exactly the same.

The answer to the question I think you're TRYING to ask, can you distinguish an x-ray from a gamma ray of the same energy, is no, not if you only have a detector to

Re:

[Wonko the Sane]

Back to the original post:

Unless they originate from a nuclear field, they are still x-rays. Various particle accelerator sources of photons are high energy, but they are x-ray sources.

All I was trying to say is that this statement is only true for a certain set of definitions. In terms of the inherent properties of the photons there is no difference between x-ray and gamma radiation, unless you draw some arbitrary boundary based on energy.

Re:

[ceoyoyo]

Yes. The correct definition. ;)

You're right, the definition seems a little pointless until you understand a bit more about it. To start with, it's a bit of a historical thing, since x-rays and gamma rays were discovered at different times. Actually, all of the divisions in the EM spectrum are where they are mostly for historical reasons, which in turn are mostly due to the different processes that are required to produce the radiation. You can make radio waves by varying an electric current, but you (be

Re:

[Wonko the Sane]

you're normally not so interested in the radiation itself but rather in where it came from

Your DNA molecules couldn't care less about the finer points of the X-ray vs. gamma ray distinction. Macroscopic cross-section and energy are the only things that matter at that level.

Re:

[ceoyoyo]

There are interesting features of EM radiation other than radiation sickness.

Radiation Overdose?

[soccer_Dude88888]

If thunderclouds can accelerate radiation energy, how come I never heard of people died in places where there are lots of thuderstorm activities due to radiation overdose?

Besides, even though there is no thunderstorm, cosmic rays can generate energy up to 1GeV.

Re:Radiation Overdose?

[StrongAxe]

If thunderclouds can accelerate radiation energy, how come I never heard of people died in places where there are lots of thuderstorm activities due to radiation overdose?

The gamma rays were only detected because they were near a nuclear power plant. Presumably such plants have very sensitive radiation detection equipment, and the number of ACTUAL gamma ray photos is sufficiently low that only very sensitive equipment could actually notice them.

Re:

[tenco]

Presumably such plants have very sensitive radiation detection equipment

The scientists installed their own equipment. From TFA:

"Installed at the rooftop of a building in this power plant, our [editor: the authors...] new automated radiation detection system has been continuously and successfully operated since 2006 December 22."

Re:

[sjames]

According tothe graphs in he paper, at peakthey detected 1900 photons/sec. That's a very low intensity exposure. As you summised it's only noticable to a very sensitive detector. For comparison, a 60 Watt bulb emits 10 to the 20th power photons per second. 1900/second for a few seconds won't even show up on a dosimeter much less kill someone.

Re:

[st1d]

>>>If thunderclouds can accelerate radiation energy, how come I never heard of people died in places where there are lots of thuderstorm activities due to radiation overdose?

Um, lightning?

Re:

[Inverted Intellect]

If thunderclouds can accelerate radiation energy, how come I never heard of people died in places where there are lots of thuderstorm activities due to radiation overdose?
Um, lightning?

Interesting... I wonder, how much of the electrical discharge is actually released as photons? And what exactly is the process by which they harm the things they strike, so to speak... ? For some reason, I've never actually considered the process by which lightning makes light.

Re:

[ZombieWomble]

Humans are much more tolerant to (relatively) small amounts of radiation than people often think. Depending on where you live, your average yearly dose can vary by almost a factor of 1,000 - the relative dose from such events in thunderstorms is much less than this variation in background, given how little is produced by any given event.

Also, while 1GeV is a typical cosmic ray energy, they can go much much higher. The "Oh my god" particle [wikipedia.org] had an energy of around 50 Joules. That's comprable to a well-hit te

Re:Radiation Overdose?

[Wilson_6500]

Ionizing radiation is much like most other poisons in that dose is critical in determining subsequent health effects. You are--right now--not only being bombarded by tiny amounts of ionizing radiation from most things around you, but your body tissues themselves are releasing ionizing radiation: they contain completely natural but radioactive potassium-40. It is, however, a very, very low level of radiation.

According to our best theories--which, to be honest, are not by any means set in stone--there is no absolutely safe lower threshold for radiation exposure IF you consider the chances for causing cancer and genetic effects. These are called "stochastic" radiation effects, because they are best described in terms of risk and probability and do not have definite thresholds. For acute radiation toxicity--vomiting, blistering, and so on--there are fairly well-defined threshold doses; these radiation sicknesses are called "deterministic" effects because we can safely say that, given a certain amount of damage, you have a certain (high) chance of acute radiation sickness. These latter effects are similar to other toxic substances, in that they are talked about in terms of doses that have some specific chance (say, 50% or 99%) of causing an effect.

The amount of radiation-induced damage caused by the gammas released by a thunderstorm is very likely to be well below the thresholds for deterministic effecs, which means that an average person has essentially no chance of developing acute radiation sickness from a thunderstorm. Exposure to low levels of radiation may increase your chance of developing cancer, but such an increase is naturally impossible to quantify.

Exactly

[Kythe]

The theory is that showers of electrons caused by cosmic rays, when they encounter the high electric fields present in thunderstorm clouds, can be accelerated to energies above 10 MeV and result in bremsstrahlung photons detectable on the ground.

Sure. I was just going to say that. :)

Re:

[dbIII]

result in bremsstrahlung photons detectable on the ground.

It is braking news about radiation after all.

Re:

[AWeishaupt]

If this physics geek had mod points right now, the above comment would be getting modded up.

Bull sh*t

[riffzifnab]

I call shinanagans. If this was true there would be a whole lot more green people running around smashing things. Everyone knows that gamma rays = Hulk, its a proven scientific fact.

Re:

[zippthorne]

What? no, most of the time it kills you. You only get Hulkinization if the test subject is particularly moody and bottles up their emotions. These seemingly contradictory requirements are necessary conditions, though they may not be sufficient.

Re:

[jamstar7]

What? no, most of the time it kills you. You only get Hulkinization if the test subject is particularly moody and bottles up their emotions. These seemingly contradictory requirements are necessary conditions, though they may not be sufficient.

OK, so there will be no emo-Hulks. Good enough for me.

Re:

[inode_buddha]

This is slashdot, all we have are a bunch of spideys. They too release a sticky white fluid via a wrist action.

I know one way to find out for sure.

[thatskinnyguy]

Tesla coils in a rainstorm with Geiger counters.

slashdot has failed me.

[J. T. MacLeod]

With 41 comments, I expected at least ONE Incredible Hulk reference.

You're all very bad nerds.

Re:

[oPless]

You need your glasses checked!

The post above yours has a hulk reference :-)

Re:

[Shadowlore]

Dude, did it take you over half an hour to compose that reply? There was at least one comment posted referencing the Hulk a full 34 minutes prior to yours. What, did you do a Google search to find something clever to come up with or something?

Wait a minute...

[__aaclcg7560]

I thought this article was supposed to be about KFC coming up with a new way to cook chicken wings.

Where have I seen this before?

[fahrbot-bot]

A Japanese nuclear plant, cosmic rays, thunderclouds? What could possibly [wikipedia.org] go wrong?

This is self evidently garbage.

[bombastinator]

the reason it is crud,

A.) There is more than one nuclear plant in the world, and most o them get rained on at one time or another.
B.) Nuclear plants check constantly for even the lowest levels of radiation.
C.) Japan does not have magic special super clouds.

If this theory were true we'd have heard about it years and years ago he first time there was a big thunderstorm at a Nuclear plant.

Re:

[jd]

C.) Japan does not have magic special super clouds.

Monkey, Great Sage, equal of Heaven, may be visiting. But in that case, the cloud would be pink.

Re:

[iamlucky13]

I'm not sure if you're joking or not, so I'll reply anyways. From the paper:

A.) This is regularly detected at multiple nuclear plants, but is not caused by them. It is serendipitous because the plants already the gamma-ray detectors for operational monitoring.

B.) Superlatives like "lowest levels of radiation" are seldom meaningful in science. The detectors would have a minimum level they can reliably sense. Also, they can't determine the direction or frequency of the photons. The team that authored th

Re:

[bombastinator]

DOH! I was somehow connecting this with the earthquake based radiation release at a Japanese nuclear plant earlier. It sounded like this was being used as a cover to explain away the issue as an atmospheric effect rather than admit it actually happened.

Too many Japanese nuclear plants in the news in a short amount of time I guess.

You got to admit it's odd though. If they've been playing with this since the 20's and all, Why are they suddenly studying it in japan right after a hugely embarrassing acciden

Bremsstrahlung photons from clouds

[The Media Mechanic]

HOLY CRAP... BREMSSTRAHLUNG PHOTONS from frikkin BASIC FLUFFY CLOUDS IN THE SKY. What's next, some goshdarned erenkov radiation being emitted from like, Innocent Little Bunny Rabbits?! Or like, some freaking Antideuterium Particles shooting out of Very Cute Baby Kittens ??

Re:

[Shadowlore]

Put the bunny back in the box.

So

[unity100]

when are we going to see first godzilla invasion ?

Why now ?

[unity100]

why until now this wasnt discovered ? radiation measurement is not something new, we are even able to map distant galaxies with radio telescopes, listen to background radiation with passive telescopes. clouds arent something new ? why did this discovery wait until now ?

Suspected relation

[RogerWilco]

There is a suspected but yet unproven relation between cosmic rays and lightning. The theory is that when a cosmic particle strikes the atmophere, it ionises a path though the atmophere. This then provides a conduit for lightning.
This is currently a hot research topic in particle physics and meteorology.

A professor in Nijmegen and a collegue of mine are studying this phenomena (Heino Falcke and Lars Bähren)
http://www.physorg.com/news4162.html [physorg.com]
http://www.lofar.org/workshop/23Apr07_Monday02/LOF ARWorkshop_Apr07_HeinoFalcke.pdf [lofar.org]

Re:

[hughk]

Seems more likely to me. 10MeV is one heck of a potential to build up in a Thundercloud. The idea of an something external with high energy acting as a trigger seems a rather neat solution of how to get the massive flashovers that are lightning.

old news

[turing_m]

Those with a taste for good metal would have detected Gamma Ray in Japan after their album "Sigh No More" in 1992. Though I have no idea how they managed to get into a nuclear base.

Interesting

[maz2331]

Interesting discovery that a high-voltage, high current discharge can produce high-energy photons. Who didn't know that one? Gammas and hard X-Rays are the same thing, just differentiated by their source. X-Rays come from electron interactions and gammas from nuclear processes. Gotta figure that some electrons will be excited to higher than average energies during a lightning bolt and produce some really energetic X-Rays that will be detected as gammas. Although, I have to admit I am still much more wo

Quote from that horrible blog

[fontkick]

"If yer gonna build a quantum computer, yer gonna need some quantum memory to store qubits."

--

Yer also gonna need some real good smart folks whose readin' and writin' skills don't come from schoolin' they got down 'n South yonder.

Excuse me for a while, I need to go read a few books to make up for the five minutes I spent at that redneck blog.