The Physics of Beer Bubbles

Roland Piquepaille writes "Yesterday, I told you about virtual beer. Today, we follow two North America researchers who are studying the physics of real beer bubbles. 'Singly scattered waves form the basis of many imaging techniques such as radar or seismic exploration.' But pouring beer in a mug involves multiply scattered acoustic waves. They are more complex to study, but they can be used to look at various phenomena, such as predicting volcanic eruptions or understanding the movement of particles in fluids like beer. They also could be used to monitor the structural health of bridges and buildings or the stability of food products over time. Read more for additional references and a photo showing how the researchers monitor beer bubbles."

Frosty Piss

[Anonymous Coward]

On Topic

Re:Frosty Piss

[sokoban]

I'm afraid that Frosty Piss will only be considered on topic if you're talking about Budweiser served in a chilled mug.

Re:

[Anonymous Coward]

Frosty Piss is exactly how I would describe Budweiser under any circumstance.

Re:

[ScrewMaster]

No, sometimes it resembles nothing so much as Warm Piss.

Not really

[EmbeddedJanitor]

Bud ain't beer so it's hardly on topic.

Re:

[Wolfrider]

--This movie http://imdb.com/title/tt0096486/ [imdb.com] suddenly becomes Relevant...

Re:

[FormOfActionBanana]

After getting tricked by Zonk into clicking through to Roland Piquepaille's website, from what I thought was going to be a funny picture, I'm scared to look... :-(

Re:

[Wolfrider]

No worries, mate. Young Einstein, by Yahoo Serious. ;-)

Under the wrong influence...

[__aaclcg7560]

Sorry, I'll take my beer without the scientific mumbo jumbo. If I wanted to get technical, I would drink wines and learn how to sniff corks.

Re:

[kaizokuace]

uh skip the wine and go straight to the 151. You cant be a pirate without rum!

Re:

[Anonymous Coward]

1: Exhale normally
2: Locate cork near nasal orifice
3: Inhale deeply and slowly
4: You should smell vapor coming off the cork

I say people who class wine as a more 'sophisticated' and 'connoisseur' drink are fuckwads. The kind of people who tailor their tastes to what they think will present them as the person they are comfortable being.

I've heard people say 'I don't like the taste of beer' (nobody likes the taste of anything, you acquire all tastes.) and then say 'I like wine, it has so much history'.

Beer is

Re:

[It'sYerMam]

I have almost the opposite problem. I prefer wine to beer, although I'm a connoisseur of neither. At least in the UK, if you want a drink down the pub, a glass of wine gets you laughed out of the door. If you want to be accepted then you can't appear sophisticated - you have to pretend you like beer.

Re:

[packeteer]

Please don't sniff the cork, it makes you look as unrefined as a... beer drinker!

*ducks*

More Research on the Subject

[MyLongNickName]

More research [theonion.com] on the subject. Very interesting stuff.

Re:Devil's Advocate here.

[weak*]

Isn't there something more worth while that scientists could be researching?

No.

Re:Devil's Advocate here.

[BlueParrot]

Yea, because it is possible to determine now what will be worthwhile science in 50 years time... You know quantum mechanics pretty much started with physicists trying to explain how infra-red radiation behaves inside a hot oven. I doubt many people at the time expected that research to develop into solid-state physics, which is what the guys over at Intel rely on to make their CPUs...

As opposed to AMD...

[JeanPaulBob]

I doubt many people at the time expected that research to develop into solid-state physics, which is what the guys over at Intel rely on to make their CPUs...

As opposed to the guys over at AMD, who use phlogiston theory to make their CPUs.

Re:Devil's Advocate here.

[chuckymonkey]

Maybe, but sometimes science is about researching things that are fun and fairly mundane. Much of what you take for granted such as a cell phone and computer came from research that many at the time scoffed at saying that it had no practical purpose. So really who are we to say what avenue of research will yield useful results? After all when it comes to fluids there is quite a bit that I'm sure we don't understand and research such as this may provide a little snowball of insight that turns into an avalanche of knowledge. Do I think it will? Not really, but hey they're having fun and who the hell knows where it could lead?

Re:Devil's Advocate here.

[intx13]

It always bothers me when laypeople decide what is worth researching. Any time there's an article in which scientists are studying something without the obvious global impact of an AIDS cure, there is always a handful of posters criticizing their focus. Would we really be any closer to a cure if every person with a scientific background was required to study AIDS, and only AIDS?

Scientific breakthroughs aren't needles in haystacks, waiting to be found through tedious searching, and if only we made everyone look for them we'd find them sooner. Instead we let scientists research as they wish, the exact requirements for usefulness being decided by sources of funding, and eventually enough seemingly-unrelated, small conclusions come together to yield the breakthrough.

Re:

[Anonymous Coward]

>It always bothers me when laypeople

This is Slashdot, there are no people getting laid.

Re:

[Nazlfrag]

He's playing Devils Advocate. He's pretending to be someone who gets laid.

Re:Devil's Advocate here.

[Londovir]

Your argument sounds as though you are adopting the "monkeys at typewriters" view. Although I'll grant that some great achievements have been made by combining smaller conclusions together (technically that's almost the definition of science), there have been a number of things that were discovered as the result of dedicated, untiring study and research. Consider the Manhatten Project, the polio vaccine, and the Apollo NASA project. Each relied, in part, on other seemingly random research, but the true nature of the breakthroughs came from the mandate that brought the projects together. (In fact, it's a debatable point that the Apollo project represents the largest, and most expensive, scientific project conceived for a single purpose in recorded history)

The bottom line is there is a clear causal relationship between directed scientific study and scientific results. That's not to say that an AIDS cure, for example, will be guaranteed to be discovered should scientists be thrown at the problem. However, I think it's incorrect to think that breakthroughs can't be found sooner if more research were directed towards their discovery.

Do I think an AIDS cure could be found if we required every person with a scientific background to research it? Absolutely - if one exists, and I believe one does. Science has proven time and again that, when motivated by necessity, it is quite capable. Penicillin, although previously researched, was difficult to mass produce until the mid-40s. It was due, in large part, to the dedicated work of Florey & Chain, that made the necessary breakthroughs leading to expanded use - and that was partly due to the urgent need for the drug during WW2.

The point is there should be some scrutiny involved in academic research. I have a hard time stomaching stories which expand upon seemingly ludicrous scientific research. If it is the result of random ennui being "itched" by a scientist in his free time, that's fantastic. If it's the result of a directed, 6+ figure research grant, I'm more concerned. There are some issues in society that must be solved by applied science, and should be done in an expedient fashion. If that means we need to take scientists and make them research some topics, perhaps we should. If the world is facing a pandemic such as AIDS, SARS, or Avian Influenza, frankly I want there to be an all-out science "assualt" on the problem. Same goes for a potential NEO collision. And if the money for the research programs comes from taxpayers (as it does for some studies), then "laypeople" have every right to scrutinize the process.

All too often us "laypeople" are fed stories where a scientist heads up a multimillion research project that studies frivolous things, and the justification is that it could lead to diverse breakthroughs, usually related to a recent event. For example, this article points out how the research could help improve techniques in studying the structural integrity of bridges. I actually had to verify the article date because this seemed like a pandering to the recent bridge collapse, although in reality it's just a grim coincidence. Although it would be hard to quantify, I'm willing to guess that the number of scientific discoveries found by accident would be less than the number of discoveries that came about as the result of directed research. Using the penicillin reference, the original antibacterial nature of penicillin may have been an accidental discovery - but the refinement, production, delivery, and derivation of alternative penicillin treatments are all results of directed study.

For what it's worth, I notice in the article that this "beer study" wasn't the focus of the scientist's work, so I'm not as concerned. (It seems from his own admission that it's more of a related diversion.)

Bubbles in Guinness?

[EmbeddedJanitor]

http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/01/1 1/2156213 [slashdot.org]

Re:Devil's Advocate here.

[drsquare]

This is incredibly important research. If they keep it up, it's only a matter of time before they develop a can or bottle where the beer has the same consistency as when it's hand-drawn. They can't do that without researching beer bubbles. The widget has been obsolete for far too long, it's the 21st century for heaven's sake.

If they can spend $17 billion a year on NASA to launch a few people into space to do nothing of use, they can spend a couple of billion to get me a pub-like pint of ale at home, at supermarket prices.

Re:

[thatskinnyguy]

Guinness in the bottle doesn't hold a candle to Guinness on tap... warm!

Re:

[noSignal]

After a small(ish) initial investment, you can have pub-like ale at home [frigidaire.com]. I get 1/4 barrel kegs of Sam Adams (I prefer a nice hoppy lager, but I'm sure you can find an ale to suit your tastes) for something like $56.00. A 1/4 barrel holds about 50 pints... that's what? $1.12ish a pint. What would you consider to be supermarket prices? Or better yet, brew your own [amazon.com] and use a cornelius keg [northernbrewer.com].

Re:

[h2_plus_O]

I brew my own and quite frankly, my product is better (or at the very least, more to my taste) than most bottled beer.

I figure my cost-per-pint, not including my labor, is somewhere around $.70- my only costs are grains, hops, and yeast- and I do grow some of my own hops, and yeast can be cultured from the last batch for the next one. ...but before you go getting excited at the notion of cheap beer, note that there's start-up costs involved: a decent brewing/sparging/lautering vessel (mine is stainless,

Re:

[drsquare]

The problem with buying barrels at home is that it goes off within a week. I mean I'm a heavy drinker, but I don't think I could average seven pints a day every day. The pump costs a couple of hundred quid as well. And I haven't really got anywhere to put it.

Supermarket prices would be about a pound per tin, or even less.

Re:Devil's Advocate here.

[digitig]

Isn't there something more worth while that scientists could be researching?

More worthwhile than a technique that can be used for monitoring the structural health of bridges? Hey, there must be; it's not as if structural health of bridges is a significant issue anywhere at the moment, is it?

Re:

[thatskinnyguy]

But that will all blow over in a matter of months. Americans are easily distracted by other things. To really understand how to build a bridge though, look no further than Ancient Rome. Now those guys knew a bridge from a hole in the ground!

Re:

[digitig]

But that will all blow over in a matter of months.

Ah, I thought it was the Tacoma Narrows bridge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacoma_Narrows_Bridg e [wikipedia.org]) that blew over.

Re:

[thatskinnyguy]

Touche! And lol! But would John Q. Public even know about that?

Re:

[tastiles]

Actually, as a researcher in medical ultrasound, this is amazingly important stuff.

I was surprised that the article didn't mention diagnostic ultrasound. When you have an ultrasound performed, the scanner assumes any sound that it receives originates from a single scatterer and that that the location of that scatterer is based on the speed of sound in tissue (about 1540 m/s).

My lab has recently been performing some work on the extent of multiple scattering in tissue, and it's quite larger than what was prev

I'm in the wrong business

[HangingChad]

Read more for additional references and a photo showing how the researchers monitor beer bubbles.

People are getting paid to study beer? Where do I sign up?

Work for Anheuser-Busch

[tepples]

People are getting paid to study beer? Where do I sign up?

You could always apply for a job with Anheuser-Busch [buschjobs.com].

Re:

[spikedvodka]

He did say "Beer" not "Watered down horse-piss"

Re:

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:

[Cadallin]

If real men drink beer, then who's drinking aged single-malt whiskeys?

Re:

[Minwee]

If real men drink beer, then who's drinking aged single-malt whiskeys?

Aliens, obviously.

Re:

[spikedvodka]

The rule I go by is "If I can see through it, it's not beer"

though I do have to say, as far as American beer goes, Sam Adams is very good

Re:

[jon_joy_1999]

wow. talk about the fox guarding the hen house.
profits? all in HC's gut.

At your local micro-brewery

[Flying pig]

Forget the big brewers, they are just marketing organisations. Eventually the product will consist of yellow dye and bio-ethanol, and by then the "consumer" won't even notice. The real research is done in small breweries and micro-breweries. Just get yourself an MSc or PhD in microbiology first.

Nowadays the thing I ask myself is "will this job be of any value if civilisation collapses?" If you work in a call centre or IT, be very afraid...but if you can fix a broken irrigation pump or generator, build a hou

Possible uses

[fishthegeek]

They could use the random interactions of the beer bubbles as a random number generator for crypto. This is much cooler than the plain ol' lava-lamp random number generator that Sun uses.

Plus this gives the added advantage of being able to recruit college students that are torn between a degree in Art History, and one in Math by telling them that they'll be forced to work with beer. It's a Win/Win situation!

Re:

[Anonymous Coward]

So cracking CSS would be reduced to waiting for the beer to go flat?

Re:

[LordLucless]

The problem would be having to refill the RNG every time a grad student walks past. People only try and drink a lava-lamp once.

Yahoo reference

[edwardpickman]

Yeah but have they split the Beer atom?

Re:Yahoo reference

[xs650]

Yes, the resulting element is vitamin P

Re:Yahoo reference

[JoeCommodore]

Yeah I hope whoever does it has an electric guitar that can do 4/4 time so they can relieve the energy of the beer atom splitting. Why, yes, Ive seen that documentary on young Einstein. [imdb.com]

What about tea?

[feepness]

And can it be used to power a starship drive [wikipedia.org]?

Re:What about tea?

[1u3hr]

And can it be used to power a starship drive?

Of course the Infinite Improbability Drive is powered by tea.

But Poul Anderson had a real beer-powered spaceship. [fantasticfiction.co.uk]

Re:

[etwills]

And can it be used to power a starship drive?

Of course the Infinite Improbability Drive is powered by tea.

Depends which Hitchhiker's version. Apparently, in the German radio episodes, 'a nice cool beer replaces hot tea as the source for brownian motion. While this appears as nonsense from a scientific point of view, it was perhaps done because of the cliché that beer is "the favourite drink in Germany" instead of tea' [Wikipedia 'Differences...' article [wikipedia.org]].

Coming up next...

[kypper]

The geometric shapes formed by coke rocks [wikipedia.org] and how they are giving architects new ideas!

Re:

[iminplaya]

Yeah, but everything ends up looking like this [meridian.net.au]

Re:

[Ellis D. Tripp]

That looks more like the results of LSD, not coke. If you wanna see what the results of coke end up looking like, click here:

http://www.bushspeaks.com/img/noellebush.jpg [bushspeaks.com]

Einstein already studied the subject.

[Bragador]

Einstein was the one who added bubbles to beer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Einstein [wikipedia.org]

Re:

[wish bot]

Oh my - who modded this informative! IT'S A FICTONAL MOVIE, and therefore A JOKE! Digg readers with mod points...sheeze.

tagged "fuckroland"

[SuperBanana]

"Yesterday, I told you about virtual beer.

Translation:

"Yesterday, I made inane commentary, ripped off images from the parent site, and quoted blocks of text whole-sale. I did this instead of submitting a story to Slashdot with links to the original site, because that wouldn't get me and CNET ad revenue. And now I'm doing it again today."

Can we please get a Roland filter, a la Jon Katz? And can Slashdot please stop linking to useless blogs?

Re:

[Zeebs]

Don't like it?
Don't read it!


This would be the point of a filter, Roland. (shhh about this being ac as well.)

Re:

[Zeebs]

FAIL on my part oh well, flaming in public, c'est la vie. My hobby exposed :(

Don't act like you've never done it... except the several of you that will, I'm in no position to make comments :P

Re:

[1u3hr]

I though I invented the "fuckroland" tag ... I suppose it's a fairly obvious idea.

Anyway, it seems that after a few weeks of just submitting articles to lull the editors, he's returned, as he ALWAYS does, to pimping his own "blog" (of plagiarised stories and pictures) linked "Read more for additional references ..."

roland piquepaille filter

[TerminalSpin]

There are a few Roland Piquepaille filters available - they take the form of Greasemonkey scripts running in Firefox

I use this one: http://userscripts.org/scripts/review/5735/ [userscripts.org] it's called NoRoland - if userscripts.org is down (again), the author (Dave?) hosts it on his own site too - http://davephp.net/ [davephp.net]

It's very effective - all I see of Roland's pollution now is a greyed out article box with the words "This is a slashvertisement. Please ignore!"

Most of the time I choose to "ignore"

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:

[jkiol]

pffft! I've been doing this for a while, coding in the afternoon without beers at lunch does nothing but produce bugs!

Re:

[TaintMasterMitch]

Actually, Guinness has mixed math with beer for some time now. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student's_t-test [wikipedia.org]

Re:

[Hillgiant]

Been done, actually. And it is even cooler [fluent.com] than you might guess.

One thing that's always interested me...

[Fyz]

I work at a bar, and sometimes i see an interesting phenomenon in beer glasses. If you leave a draft beer out and let the foam fizzle away, after a while(but not too long or the foam will disappear completely) the foam will coalesce into a ring shaped pattern of circles, equally sized and spaced and at the same distance from the rim and centre of the glass.
It takes about half an hour for this pattern to form, and for the life of me, I can't figure out what makes it!
Anyone?

Re:One thing that's always interested me...

[xs650]

I would like to help you out, but a poured beer has never sat for 30 minutes.

Cheers

Re:

[xs650]

Edit:

I would like to help you out, but a poured beer has never sat for 30 minutes in my presence.

Cheers

Re:

[porl]

no, i think you were right the first time. anyone who claims otherwise is just wanting you to 'test' the theory by leaving them with a glass of beer...

Re:One thing that's always interested me...

[gardyloo]

I would guess you are seeing a combination of the "Cheerio Effect" (see Wikipedia) and the mild feedback as popping and coalescing bubbles set up standing waves (approximately at the maxima of the J0 Bessel functions which would describe such waves confined at the liquid interface).

Re:One thing that's always interested me...

[glomph]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A9nard_cells [wikipedia.org] I believe it's related to this phenomenon, the bubbles act as markers. I've seen these while flying over small ponds in New England in the early A.M., composed of the fog over the (relatively) warm water.

Splitting the beer atom

[Stealth Dave]

We haven't seen this level of advancement in beer technology since Einstein split the beer atom [wikipedia.org] back in 1988.

- Stealth Dave

Ig Nobel is pleased!

[strredwolf]

Ahhh, someone is taking up his groundbreaking research into beer bubble paths. Soon we shall be able to find out irreproducable his work truly is!

Re:

[History's Coming To]

Now, now.....he's doing proper research.


*smirk*


They said the laser was of no practical use when it was invented.....


*snigger*


"You could potentially use this technique to monitor the product to make sure it remains stable over time."


Oh good grief, all that research and what does he comes up with? A chocolate-quality-control device. Release the hounds....

Getting the cash

[eebra82]

Scientist: Our group would like to study beer bubbles. Board member: Denied. We need a cure for cancer. Scientist: But it's really important -- like that Norwegian study which proved that penguins don't fall on their back when observing passing planes. Board member: Sorry, but it's not viable. Scientist: You can have 20 percent of the beer. Board member: Will $200,000 do?

Re:

[Chris Burke]

Scientist: But it's really important -- like that Norwegian study which proved that penguins don't fall on their back when observing passing planes.

Damn it, that was our only defense against the penguin hordes!

This does bring up the question...

[mdenham]

...if you put a beer into a soundproof booth, are the bubbles still going to behave how the researchers expect them to?

And now for a semi-useful related result

[dkleinsc]

Although I won't go give Roland a pile of cash, I think it's worth mentioning that there's this amusing little video [stanford.edu]regarding beer bubble physics.

It's all on why bubbles in Guinness move down.

let us have our fun, Nerds!

[kbox]

Trust nerds to take the fun out of beer and turn it in to something "interesting".

Seriously?

[davygrvy]

Yahoo!

Even MORE Research On The Subject

[topgeek]

Fact: Beer Makes You Psychic [thetoque.com].

They're obviously just trolling for an IgNoble...

[markana]

Although the award in 2002 to Arnd Leike for his Beer Froth research might disqualify them...

Futurama Bender Beer Brewing robot

[Anonymous Coward]

Perfect time to point this out. A full sized, beer brewing, talking Bender.

http://www.asciimation.co.nz/bender [asciimation.co.nz]

René Thoms: catastrophe theory

[infernet]

This research does not seem to be fair enough. These findings were already theorized by the French mathematician René Thom; he developed the catastrophe theory between 1968 and 1972. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_thom [wikipedia.org] He published his work "Structural Stability and Morphogenesis" (1972), where he states the catastrophe theory may explain natural phenomena such as the beer bubbles, the tree barks, vulcanic activity, earthquakes, sea waves, and even a stock market catastrophes... It's a shame

Re:

[Max Littlemore]

This research does not seem to be fair enough. These findings were already theorized by the French mathematician René Thom; he developed the catastrophe theory between 1968 and 1972.

That's right, he developed a theory. It wasn't until the early 1990s when I was playing in a band and I left a beer on my bass rig for one really short song that anyone proved the actual catastrophe.

Completely flat.

Re:

[Hognoxious]

Was it warm? Chances are, the drummer stole your beer and peed in the glass. They do that, drummers. Probably because they're jealous of musicians.

I logged into /. for the first time in a year ...

[MikeSty]

... so I could post how much this made me think of Young Einstein. I also knew this is the only place in the world where other people actually know about such an awesome movie. I feel at home :)

Just let me hear some of that rock and roll music
Any old time you choose it
It's got a back beat you can't lose it,
Any old time you use it
Gotta be rock roll music
If you wanna dance with me
If you wanna dance with me

First Law of "Beer Physics".....

[IHC Navistar]

What goes down, may eventually come up.

No Beer! A nice cup of Tea on a Thursday Morning?

[Whiteox]

Does my memory serve me correct? Wasn't the physics of a nice cup of tea discussed a few years ago? Brownian motion and all that!
I think it came with fairy cake too.....

Re:Roland Zonkpaille

[sanyasi]

I know a lot of people think Roland Piquepaille has 'reformed' because hes no longer linking to primidi, but Roland is still whoring Slashdot for ad views and the like - its just that he is now employed by zdnet. [masternewmedia.org] The links in the summary all link to his new blog run by zdnet.
Im not saying that its wrong to do this - but dont be fooled into thinking that his new links are somehow 'genuine' and hes not whoring as usual.