Europe's Galileo Program In Serious Trouble 403
elrous0 writes "Various news outlets are reporting that Europe's Galileo program is facing a serious financial and technical crisis and may be permanently stalled. The European program, designed to be a superior answer to the US's GPS — and, more critically, not controlled by the US — has faced numerous hurdles since its inception. To date the Galileo program has succeeded in launching only one of its 30 planned satellites and has been beset by delays and cost overruns. Apparently, squabbling between the eight companies in the consortium behind the project is responsible for many of the problems. The project is now threatened with an EU takeover. But some doubt that even an infusion of EU capital can save the flagging program."
I'm not surprised... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm a EU citizen, and I applauded the Galileo program. Especially, because at least we would gain a bit independence to the US. (I was for a European Army too, provided that all national armied be disbanded... That idea was highly critisized by the US too). Anyway, this is typical EU technology stuff. Good idea in the beginning, bureaucracy kicks in, budgets get busted, scientists get frustrated and leave for the greener pastures in the US (or elsewhere), etc... etc... etc...
Eurofighter... same kind of mess. The only thing the EU is good at is creating papers and using my tax money. Okay, that and technically they are responsible for keeping peace (within EU members states) for over 50 years. A fucking long time in Europes history.... Well, it's a high price for peace, but it's the only reason I'm not against the EU.
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I'm all for you guys being independant from us. Maybe we can stop spending money on bases over there.
Just remember who was nice to you many times in the past.
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Huh? The EU started out as, and effectively remains, an economic organization. How did they "keep the peace".
If anything, I would credit the relative peacefulness of Europe in the last 50 years to cohesiveness against the external soviet threat, combined with the massive US subsidy of European defense budgets. With the mainly US funded NATO as their defense umbrella, Europe could divert funds that would otherwise have be
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Huh? The EU started out as, and effectively remains, an economic organization. How did they "keep the peace".
The EU started out as the European Coal and Steel Community, steel being the stuff you use to make bombs, trucks, tanks and other weaponry. One of the express purposes of regulation the steel and coal industries was to be able to prevent any country from suddenly starting a mass buildup of weaponry, like Germany's ef
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I'm sure that like US states for the past 142 years, we'll see fit to take it out on nations outside the federation.
Where ya gonna go? Russia? Good luck with that one -- Western/Central European invasions of Russia haven't done so well historically. Africa? More trouble then it's worth.
And it's not really a good analogy to make linking the EU 'Federation' with the United States. We have a shared culture and history. You have a collection of different languages, different cultures, different priori
Re:I'm not surprised... (Score:5, Informative)
The preambles of the Treaty of Paris:
CONSIDERING that world peace may be safeguarded only by creative efforts equal to the dangers which menace it;
CONVINCED that the contribution which an organized and vital Europe can bring to civilization is indispensable to the maintenance of peaceful relations;
CONSCIOUS of the fact that Europe can be built only by concrete actions which create a real solidarity and by the establishment of common bases for economic development;
DESIROUS of assisting through the expansion of their basic production in raising the standard of living and in furthering the works of peace;
RESOLVED to substitute for historic rivalries a fusion of their essential interests; to establish, by creating an economic community, the foundation of a broad and independent community among peoples long divided by bloody conflicts; and to lay the bases of institutions capable of giving direction to their future common destiny;
HAVE DECIDED to create a European Coal and Steel Community[..]
Yeah, probably just a footnote in history.
MOD parent up. An actual reference (Score:3, Insightful)
Long live the EU. I'm much happier with the current set up than how my grandfather or his father had to relate to folk from other European countries. Dying in a muddy trench shooting at somebody who's got no more grudge against me than I have against him because some rich bloke will make some money out of it or because some hereditary fool has some bizarre sense of honour to protect seems a bloody pointl
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A wise man once said "The pen is mightier than the sword".
Re:I'm not surprised... (Score:5, Insightful)
They'll be able to do what the US is doing right now, as the Euro replaces the US Dollar as the world reserve currency they'll be able to print Euros without producing inflation within the EU. The inflation will be externalised. Essentially, the rest of the world will finance the EU defence budget.
Re:I'm not surprised... (Score:5, Interesting)
(Disclaimer: I am a US Citizen)
There's a lot of resentment over the power the US has held over the heads of other nations in the world. Gunboat negotiations and all.
US corporations spread globalism with an emphasis on profits over the benefit of humanity. The government repeatedly chooses not to reign them in because the politicians are lobbied by money instead of doing what's right for the nation.
Unfair trade agreements, a favor of capitalism over socialism, and other inequities just helps keep people angry. We try to police the world and are bad neighbors to the world community at the same time.
That said, (minefield time) I do agree that there's far more anti-American feelings than warranted. If Portugal (just for a random example) found itself in our position it would do the exact same thing. It's a Game Theory thing. A lot of old world countries did all sorts of horrible things within their spheres of influence. It just so happens that the rise of US power coincided with the time when one nation COULD have global reach.
But...
Until we get voter turnout rates that aren't pathetic compared to American Idol,
Until we have a culture that honors education instead of 50 Cent,
Until we can be colorblind in all racist matters,
Until we can humble ourselves as a member of the world instead of masters of it
We will continue to be hated.
That's ok, I was unpopular in high school, too.
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By being an economic organization. It's not in any country's interest to wage war with its closest trade partners.
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Care to venture a guess who was Frances' largest trade partner in 1940?
Or Japan's in 1941?
Re:I'm not surprised... (Score:4, Informative)
No, it isn't. Europe has been at peace and will continue to be at peace because of international trade. War is caused by two factors: (1) a psychopath manages to become dictator, or (2) you can realize a significant material gain from invading your neighbour. We must be eternally vigilant against (1) (and strong democratic institutions are a good defense), but for (2), there is no sense in invading your neighbour for its resources if your neighbours are willing to harvest what you want and deliver it to your door for about the same price as if you had done it yourself.
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War is caused by a society feeling threatened (a) Economically or (b) Philosophically. In response to that fear a society will grant power to extremists who have the "solution," typically a scapegoat (Jews, Terrorists, Drugs, Canada, etc.)
Read about the founding of the EU (Score:3, Informative)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6483585.stm [bbc.co.uk]
As another reply to your "Huh?" comment said, the EU had nothing to do with economics, and everything to do with preventing another war. If you've been to Europe recently and noticed how citizens see themselves as European first and nationals second, you will see they've done very well on their goals.
Re:Read about the founding of the EU (Score:5, Informative)
What the hell are you smoking??? Go to France, and be astounded at the Frenchness of the French. Go to Germany, and be astounded at their Germanness. Go to Sweden.... you get the point. Not only are all the countries resolutely individual, they are proud to be something specific. Finally, a couple of countries voted against the EU constitution, some never really joined (they are only part of the EU market), and you'll realize that Europe is a long way from become a nation.
Whoever modded this informative hasn't been to Europe.
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I've also been to New Mexico, and been "astounded" at their "New Mexican-ness", been to Texas, and been "astounded" at their "Texan-ness", and been to Kansas, and been "astounded" at their "Kansan-ness". However, they all still identify themselves as Americans. Europeans never did this before the EU, and they definitely do now.
Whoever modded your comment informative can't get beyond American notions of nations. (Not that I ever claimed Europe was one.)
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By making the countries of Europe dependant on each other. Wars have a strange tendency to only happen when the political elite stands to profit from it.
That's certainly another factor. I would howev
Re:I'm not surprised... (Score:4, Interesting)
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http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/2002/120
Obviously, rapes ARE significantly higher among the Muslim demographic; unemployment, previous criminal history, etc. are not excuses, and don't make them non-Muslim.
Read the article to see how they justify their rapes.
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Here's another one, about the rape epidemic in Sweden by Muslims. Apparently some teenage girls there even designed an "anti-rape belt" because the problem is so bad.
And this isn't just some hoodlums committing crimes which authorities would disapprove of. What do top Muslim clerics think of it? "An Islamic Mufti in Copenhagen sparked a political outcry after publicly declaring that women who refuse to wear headscarves are 'asking for rape.'"
Re:I'm not surprised... (Score:4, Interesting)
Particularly that countries like Germany and France would be force to give up their bullying of the rest of continent. The Euro would be a lot stronger if Germany and France didn't keep breaking the deficit rules that they force everyone else to abide by.
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During the same period, our U.S. Dollar has decreased from being worth around 0.75 British Pounds to the point now where it is hovering around half a British Pound (i.e. 1 British Pound regularly topping 2 dollars!), a comparison not seen in several decades.
Combined with our current massiv
Re:I'm not surprised... (Score:4, Insightful)
A weak dollar is actually a good way to fix outsourcing, as US goods become cheaper... in fact its the only way that the market by itself really has to fix outsourcing and trade deficits.
As for the Yuan... it has performed where it has because the Chinese government has been more or less subsidizing its own currency, which I suppose a more communist government is capable of. No matter how good the opportunity, China can't sustain a 9% growth rate forever, and when they slow down, their currency will have to come crashing to the floor, or we'll be mopping up Chinese bonds to fund their debt.
The global economy is a revolving door, and no one is spared, no matter how high and mighty they think they are. The state of the US dollar testifies to that.
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You've been at peace for the first time in 60 years (I think that's the longest stretch so far?) thanks to the United States of America. Without the US, you'd be posting in Russian (or German. Or not at all). Wait a minute, that's not true if you consider the Yugoslavia debacle, which you had surprisingly little will to solve until the United States practically forced you to. And then essentially solved for you anyway.
You've been perfectin
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How did this not get modded "Flamebait"? No matter how true something is, the tone makes the difference between "Insightful" and "Troll".
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Nothing personal, but I'd rather ya'll sweat the petty stuff and let the US be the world's police. They don't do it all that well, but I'm pretty sure the alternatives would be worse.
Yeah, that whole US as global cop thing...the Euros bitch about the US doing everything unilaterally, but when you start doing stuff by committee nothing gets done (see current story). And it seems that for conflicts that the US doesn't get involved with for whatever reason, it seems that Europe doesn't really jump in with b
Read the FA (Score:2)
The European Commission (EC) set the May deadline for them to come forward with a single company structure to run Galileo, a chief executive and common negotiating position.
But with little sign of the target being met to the Commission's satisfaction, the EC is now expected to present new proposals to overhaul the project on 16 May.
I know this is Slashdot, but could you please read the BBC article? This is clearly not a bureaucratic problem or a financial problem. The problem is the companies concerne
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The reasons that Europe has had 50 years of peace are.
1. Germany and France where both pretty well destroyed. So they spent a good number of hears rebuilding.
2. Germany was rebuilt with a constitution that enforces none aggression. That was enforced by the US and the the UK for many years.
3. The US rebuilt Europe both friend and foe alike with the Marshall Plan and continued Lend Lease.
4. The US help fou
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The EU has its roots in the Franco-German Steel and Coal agreements of the 50s, whose primary goal was peace in Europe. Everything else is just added bureaucracy. The rise of the US as a superpower had no impact on peace in Europe, unless you count conflict with Russia as part of a European conflict.
Re:I'm not surprised... (Score:4, Insightful)
In addition, you may not remember it, but it was less than 20 years ago that the Soviet Union included parts of Western Europe--there wasn't even a unified Germany. This is hard to fathom now, but not 20 years ago a large portion of the EU was much less accessible than it is now. Certainly during the last 50 years there were times when western Europe's relations with the Soviets was
I know anti-Americanism is the fashionable thing now, but come on, I just can't imagine why you would try to minimize hundreds of thousands of dead.. I just don't know what the motivation for that is.
(incidentally, I'm not disputing the fact that the precursor France, Germany, Benelux, Italy union was intended to peace, though I would dispute that it was the biggest factor, or even a big one. Something about millions and millions of people dying tends to kinda suck the desire to fight from people.. it helps when there are soldiers around keeping the peace too !!)
Perhaps you would be surprised if you read the OP (Score:2)
It's not a question of government versus private enterprise, but one of "too many independent parties"
Your post therefore seems to be largely barking up the wrong tree.
What might have been a mu
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The main problem (if you can call it one) is that the EU isn't a country. You may take your share of blame for your NiC because your countrymen put him in power. Who should we blame for a failing EU? People from Poland, Romania or Malta? They don't speak my language, don't read or watch the same media, can't v
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Re:I'm not surprised... (Score:5, Insightful)
Apart from the same money, Europeans also now share the same driving license.
Regarding commonality: There's more than the Euro, but not much: we now also have the same driving license. But I can't really think of much else at the moment...
The problem with democracy in Europe is that people use the EU elections to voice their frustrations and vote all the radical parties to show their dissatisfaction with the currently ruling administration in their own member state because the parliament doesn't have much power anyway.. So all kinds of really radical parties get voted in which people would never dream of voting into their own parliaments.
People actually say that the EU parliament has a much greater voice now than it did a decade ago - I also agree with other postings that the only way to make it more democratic is to give it enough powers so that people actually start caring. Right now, people use the EU elections for nothing but to voice their frustrations at their own goverment. This includes I believe even the referendums for the constitution: Their government is for it? People vote against - their government is against it? The people would have voted for it.
I believe that once the economic growth has gone on for a while and people are not fearing losing their jobs anymore as was the case in most countries that voted against the election, maybe we have a chance to get the constitution through. Without it, the EU will become a group of states that cannot do anything because all decisions have to be unanimous.
I still think of myself as a European though rather than a German - that being mainly because I grew up in the UK, lived in Germany for most of my life, spent quite some years in the USA where I really saw that there was a difference between European (not just English/German) mentality. In my work, half of the people I work with in the office are Dutch/other half is German.
People in Europe are brought up to be a lot more critical about their government, in the US for quite some time after 9/11 it was unheard of to criticize the president - US news just wasn't worth watching because it was all so one sided. Thankfully that has gotten a lot better again (I left the US two months ago). In the US, the goverment says something, the people believe it with almost no questions asked. Not so here.
What's not so good here is that people here rely too much on the government - in the US people rely more on themselves. If you're out of a job or are earning too little money, Americans get another job - here in Europe people ask for unemployment pay.
US and gun laws - after the shootings at that school people saying that if everybody had a gun, it would not have been as bad... No thanks... But I have to admit US gun laws are similar to having a law to impose a speed limit on the Autobahn in Germany- no government would ever be elected or reelected if they did that. It is just something cultural.
In the US it seems that the government wants to only have a few educated people and a lot of not so educated people - Universities there are just so prohibitively expensive. This is one of the main reasons I came back actually because my gf wants to study. 500 Euros a semester, that's a joke comparing it to US prices.
Then, we have more taxes here, but you get a lot for them - you get good roads (I am always amazed when I come from the US how good they are here), you get the university education.
Getting back to the Galileo program - there needs to be an EU government which have something to say. And they should press through the Galileo system. It is vital. Right now, I fear that it is not strong enough yet and it will stay at the one 1 satellite. I hope I am wrong.
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Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
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I assume that means you use a BSD-based kernel?
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Why there's nobody fighting: (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously: they have a waiting list to get in. How slick is that? You've got countries falling over themselves, remaking themselves in your image, in order to be part of your empire. Not too shabby.
Re:Why there's nobody fighting: (Score:5, Insightful)
Are Germany and France conquering the rest of Europe, or is the rest of Europe conquering Germany and France? I ask because I read -- chiefly in The Economist and The New York Times, granted -- about the angst in both countries over the rising tide of English as a language and the difficulty both have had with economic growth over the last 20 years. The language aspect is particularly important: the best way to kill or submerge a culture is to destroy its language. Look at what the English did to the Welsh, Scottish, and Irish; to most of the world, people who are from all four geographic region would seem one and the same. Not many people know Welsh, and few writers work with it any longer. The same happened to American Indian cultures.
It seems like the rest of Europe is changing the cultures of those two countries moreso than the other way around.
Re:I'm not surprised... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I'm not surprised... (Score:4, Insightful)
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EU doesn't mean all of Europe, just like US doesn't mean all of America. Just the member states. Both lists are on wikipedia :)
Piggyback US (Score:3, Interesting)
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Re:Piggyback US (Score:5, Insightful)
Beneath the PR gloss the US government has always acted in its own interest to a large extent (don't take that as a criticism, any government in its position would the same). However, in recent years this has become significantly more pronounced with the hawkish arrogance of Bush and co. In particular, Tony Blair's conceit that he has any real influence over the Bush administration is laughable, and has been for some time now. Bush will only do what Blair wants if he was going to do it anyway; out of the PR highlight, U.S. government staff have admitted as much.
I'm sure you'll excuse me if I say that I don't trust the Bush-led government one fucking bit. When push came to shove, if they were forced to choose, they'd act in their own self-interest. Even if the US Democrats won the next election, there's no guarantee that they'd be significantly better, or how long it would be before the Bush-types regain power.
As I said, I personally think it's undesirable to rely on the US-controlled system. You can take this as an anti-U.S. rant or not; what it comes down to IMHO is that we need a system under our own control, not something that can be yanked from under our feet if it proves inconvenient to our allies.
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I still think it is a fairly low-priority issue. If the US were to disable or degrade service over Europe then it would directly affect American companies too, specifically airlines and shipping companies. Also, the US manufactures a significant portion (perhaps even most) of the consumer and almost all of the professional level GPS units used around the world. If GPS couldn't be relied upon then the sale of GPS equipment would surely be aversely affected.
If you would want to be fully independent of the U
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Do you think this would be America's biggest concern in times of war?
Do you think Europeans are happy about that either?
Would you personally be happy to be relying on another country's goodwill for daily needs? Well, Europeans are no different and they don't like it either.
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However, the rest of your post is pure and simple off-topic Bush bashing that really has no bearing on the discussion at hand, nor on any decision making made by current EU leadership. In fact, both the US and the EU came to an agreement in 2004 on GPS and Galileo frequencies helping to preserve a military advantage for both sid
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Now, for a joint effort, I'd be all for it - if I hadn't seen how international projects tend to be even more expensive than the national ones (ISS jumps to mind).
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As an American, would you want something that vital to your national defense completely controlled by the Europeans?
The EU seems perfectly happy to rely on the US for their defense, so why is GPS an issue? Seriously, I don't get it. It's like building your own internet. There's a decent one in place, why spend the money to...
Oh, wait, I think I do get it.
Well, just use GLONASS (Score:5, Funny)
Oh wait...
Sounds Familiar (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Sounds Familiar (Score:5, Insightful)
One Ring To Rule Them All (Score:2)
I suppose I can understand their not wanting to have a completely US controlled system. However to not have one true master over the project can often lead to trouble. This is what has crippled the Airbus 380 project. This will be a problem far into the future for any EU project.
Reinventing the wheel. For SPITE! (Score:2, Insightful)
Emotions wax and wane. If you project is based off little more than the sentiment of "Fscking Americans...", so too will the ability of the project to function.
Is a re-implementation of a GPS-like system a laudable goal? SURE!
Is the "Fscking Americans..." sentiment a good basis for such a goal? NO EFFING WAY!
And, if the simple goal of having a product like this outside of American control remains the primary g
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"We beat the Russkies to the moon, HA-ha. Now slash the budget to hell ... except for the pork barrel stuff, of course."
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Oh, don't be dense (Score:5, Interesting)
Anyway, it has fuck all to do with spite and everything to do with military independence. It's geopolitics. Whether you like it or not, the EU is gradually unifying into what will become a direct competitor to the US for world resources. Where there are trade rivalries today we will have wars tomorrow, and to conduct a war against a country who controls vital information systems like GPS would be stupidest folly.
Oh, you don't think the EU would ever go to war against the US? Just wait till the oil and water start running out.
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One of these two does not belong in this sentence.
Re:Oh, don't be dense (Score:4, Insightful)
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The simple truth is, both sides of the Atlantic have too much in common, culturally, intellectually, and even in political systemic functions, to find themselves enemies.
Lol. Sorry, this is just naive.
Both Europe and North America have significant water resources, so I doubt that will be the issue that divides us.
Potable water is an energy issue. The supply of sweet water for drinking and particularly irrigation is not unlimited, then it becomes an energy issue, expending energy for desalination. And with ready and cheap sources of energy becoming more scarce...
Hopefully, 50 years from now, we will have weaned ourselves off of oil enough that it too will not be an major problem.
Yes... on to what? There isn't anything out there with the energy density and extraordinarily low cost. There will almost certainly be wars over the oil as it becomes more scarce. Hell, they've already started.
That's assuming the EU doesn't simply collapse, which is what my money is on.
It began in 19
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[humor]You must be new here...[/humor]
Seriously, though, I'd love to see some competition for a global navigation system, and I'm a US citizen. After all, these days we're more in danger from our own government than anyone else! Your point about possible future geopolitical conflicts is well taken, but I think that we've go a lot more to worry about in terms of China than from the EU, though I do agree that EU/US relations will see even more cooling o
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conclusion (Score:2)
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The summary is a little biased but a wiki on Galileo [wikipedia.org] better spells out the reasoning behind Galileo.
The second reason is the more important. Remember, the GPS system is still controlled by the US Military. Civilian usage of the system may be revoked or hindered at any time the military deems fit. In a state of war, limitations or bans may occur. In fact, civilian receivers are limited by design to be less precise than military receivers. Whil
Obvious (Score:2, Insightful)
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And there is a thing called Differential GPS. It was developed privately to allow people with access to only the coarse positioning signal from GPS to have positions as accurate as the precision positioning signal. More accurate, actually.
Note that SA has been turned off since Gulf War 1, when we found that there weren't enough milspec GPS receivers available, and had to supplement our forces with off the shelf civilian units.
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Perhaps in the U.S. (although I've never heard of any license fees for building GPS receivers); I doubt that those license agreements would be enforceable outside the U.S. anyway, and I'm pretty certain that it wouldn't be hard to go to Taiwan or China and have a bunch of receivers made without paying. It's not like the DoD is going to degr
*Cough* Bu11sh1t! (Score:2)
I wish the receiver in my car knew that!
You should also tell the DoD, they only ensure civilian accuracy to around 50 ft / 15 meters (it's far less accurate in many parts of the world). The Galileo system on the other hand will work with GPS to allow accuracy within a few Inches/Centimeters.
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Well, pay a few thousand for a surveyor's GPS and let us know what accuracy you get. It'll be a little better than the systems found in cars and $100 GPS receivers. Just because you haven't heard of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Run a couple searches on GPS accuracy and check on it, include the word "centimeter" and see how many results you get and what they are about. Don't worry, we'll be here when you get back.
European Culture (Score:2)
Considering the many proposed benefits of the Galileo system (from Wiki):
* higher precision to all users than is currently available through GPS or GLONASS
* improve availability of positioning services at higher latitudes
* provide an independent positioning system upon which European nations can rely even in times of war or political disagreement.
How important is #3 to the EU? I would say the first two points are the most valuable. Is there any evidence that the US has intentio
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* improve availability of positioning services at higher latitudes
* provide an independent positioning system upon which European nations can rely even in times of war or political disagreement.
How important is #3 to the EU? I would say the first two points are the most valuable.
Without #3 there would be absolutely no motivation to execute the project at all. The current GPS signal is good enough, and some minor technical imp
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The Russian Alternative... (Score:2, Informative)
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maybe it will lower the cost of aerial & satellite imagery in general - relying on IKONOS, SPOT is expensive
I don't see how a new satellite based location system is likely to reduce the cost of remote sensing data. The 2 systems are entirely different in their applications. The only thing that will reduce the cost of commercial satellite imagery is competition. Unfortunately the industry is shrinking in terms of the number of players. With the merger of Space Imaging and Orbimage into GeoEye we are left with basically 3 companies (Digital Globe, GeoEye, SPOT) to choose from for high resloution(.6-1m) imagery.
How to leave US / Asia in the dust (Score:2)
EU management prowess (Score:2, Insightful)
Can't wait until you all get fed up with US control of the Internet, and decide to make your own internet. Good luck with that one too.
Shock and Surprise (Score:3, Insightful)
*rolling of eyes*
GPS is a privilege, not a right. The US Government was kind enough to say, "okay, citizens, you can use it, too, but with a tad less accuracy." Well, a few years later, it seems some people get a stick up their butt and suddenly think that GPS is their God-given right. Well, like the internet, it isn't. And just like the internet, just because the rest of the world found a use for it and came to depend on it, doesn't justify complaints of US control.
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