New Hydrogen Storage Technique 255
pwp writes to mention that researchers at the University of New Brunswick are reporting they have found a new method of storing hydrogen gas. The new method is able to condense hydrogen gas into a usable solid under mild conditions. "Hydrogen gas is typically stored under pressure in large metal cylinders, approximately four feet high. These cylinders are heavy and expensive to transport. Since they are under pressure, they also pose a safety hazard. 'We've reached a milestone with our ability to condense hydrogen into a usable solid,' said Dr. McGrady. 'The next step is to produce a safe, compact storage system for the compound that is both lightweight and affordable.' The research is expected to produce reversible hydrogen storage materials that can be processed into a powder for use in limitless commercial applications."
I want more. (Score:5, Interesting)
Only nine percent hydrogen by weight is success? How much fuel will it waste in transportation if there is nine times as much "pakaging" material as there is hydrogen. Yes the currently used hydrogen cylinders are heavy, but I do not believe they weigh nine times as much as they can carry.
Re:I want more. (Score:5, Interesting)
At least, that's what a local news report mentioned a few days back.
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(sleep 15)
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That would make a whale of an impact.
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Re:I want more. (Score:5, Informative)
HOWEVER...
As many people seem to forget on energy and rocketry threads, breakthroughs like this are sadly a dime a dozen. The vast majority never reach the market or reach it in a greatly diminished form. Thus, take press-release style reports of breakthroughs with a heavy grain of salt.
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Re:I want more. (Score:4, Interesting)
Why haul anything? (Score:3, Insightful)
Of course, you are right in questioning how standard these things will get. (Answer: If it will kill a competitor or three, not very)
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The only way they could make it more interesting (fun) than that would be to infuse it with a healthy chunk of sodium or potassium so all it takes to set it off is WATER.
Damn, I'm getting excited just thinking about it (in a totally platonic way, of course.)
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Re:I want more. (Score:5, Interesting)
Wrong. That's not even the tip of the iceberg.
The real problem, as any hydride person would correctly point out, is not "theoretical storage fraction"; rather, it's REVERSIBLE storage fraction. It doesn't really matter, in the long run, if you can store 18%, or even 25% hydrogen by weight in a substance if the following are true:
1. it takes a LOT of energy to put it in (theormodynamically unfavorable hydrogenation reaction)
2. you can only get out a small fraction of what you put in under favorable conditions (non-reversibility)
3. the reaction doesn't move very quickly (unfavorable kinetics)
With these limitations, you face a severe energy penalty for trying to use the material as a hydrogen carrier, mostly because it's one-way. The keys to an inexpensive, efficient solid-state hydrogen storage material combine high storage fraction with a high level of reversibility: why bother using a material if you have to ship it back to the "refinery" when the hydrogen has been depleted? As an example, let me use the typical automotvie application to illustrate. (I know that TFA - which doesn't really say ANYthing, natch - doesn't explicitly state that their "revolutionary" material is for automotive applications, but that's where all the money is coming from these days.)
What I want to do is expose the dehydrogenated powder (it's usually a powder) to hydrogen gas at about 1 atmosphere (~15 psi), remove some heat of reaction (for later use, naturally) and go on with my business. Preferably at a "hydrogen filling station", whatever that ends up looking like. Oh, and refueling shouldn't take more than about 5 minutes. And once the tank is full, I should be able to drive 300 miles without filling up again.
Right now, there is NO material known on Earth that can fulfill these requirements and still be designed into a car.
The astute reader will notice immediately that I'm leaving out what might be the single-most crucial design driver: SAFETY. I don't know if everyone's been keeping up, but alane (and the alanate hydrides in general) are ROCKET FUELS. Personally, I don't want to drive around with 20kg of solid rocket fuel in my car's gas tank. In this case, safety will absolutely drive eventual adoption, even trumping reversible storage fraction.
For example, sodium alanate (NaAlH4) has a theoretical storage fraction of 5.6%, and the reversible fraction is starting to approach 4-5%, which is a very, very good track record. However, when it sees water (which it might, in a car accident) it EXPLODES. Well, deflagrates, but you get the point.
(rant on)
Don't get me wrong. I'm all about solid-state H2 storage, and the "H2 economy" in general, whatever that happens to be. I'm even a "real" materials engineer, working with hydrides. But I'm also all about reality, and hopefully trying to "drop the veil" of proprietary information wherever possible. We're working as a team, people. So, to the press folks at UNB: write better articles, publish some papers, or both.
(rant off)
-joe.
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Yes, a hybrid using alane (or even a solid using an oxidizer other than LOX) would be far better than LOX/LH. You get a slight Isp cut, but you get a manyfold increase in fuel density, which reduces your craft mass. Reducing craft mass increases performance and reduces manufacture cost/maintenence. There's long been a debate over which is more important -- high Isp (as in LOX/LH) or high densi
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Nitpick: 9% is approximately 1/11. That means that 10/11 parts is 'packaging,' so there's ten times as much non-hydrogen stuff as there is hydrogen.
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Its alka-selter for your car.
Plink-Plink-vroooooooom.
As for the packaging, I would be more worried about the waste of the huge foil tablet wrappers than anything (though, they would be pretty much beanie shaped, so they could be used...)
Re:I want more. (Score:5, Funny)
- - - - - - - - - -
Brunswick Stew
In a 2 gallon pot, over low heat melt ¼ lb of butter then add:
3 cups small diced potatoes
1 cup small diced onion
2 14½ oz. cans of chicken broth
1 lb baked chicken (white and dark)
8-10 oz. smoked pork
Bring to a rolling boil, stirring until potatoes are near done, then add:
1 8½ oz. can early peas
2 14½ oz. cans stewed tomatoes - (chop tomatoes, add liquid to the stew pot)
3 cups prepared onion barbecue sauce
1 16 oz. can of baby lima beans
¼ cup Liquid Smoke
1 14½ oz. can creamed corn
Slow simmer for 2 hours
- - - - - - - - - -
The exciting revelation is that this recipe actually contains more than twice the percentage of hydrogen by weight that is stated in the article. Real progress.
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What we really need is (Score:2)
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An engine that runs on kittens? Count me in!
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I've heard it's the best way to eat squirrel.
Weight isn't the problem, it's volume (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Weight isn't the problem, it's volume (Score:5, Insightful)
In short, I think the overall vehicle mass would come out to be lower. Volume of the fuel+drivetrain will be probably bigger, but I wouldn't expect it to be bigger by a huge amount (I'm not sure of the volume of current fuel cells; electric engines are pretty small, though, and you get to eliminate all sorts of components (like the alternator)).
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lets look (Score:3, Informative)
Typically, a 1460 x 230 mm K size industrial gas cylinder weighs 65kg and holds 7.2 cubic metres of hydrogen, which has to be compressed at 175 bar (c. 2500 psi) - a convenient size and weight (same as a 50 litre fuel tank) for one cylinder to fit into a car, but the actual weight of the hydrogen is only 0.6kg.
hmmm... 65kg/.6kg
Re:I want more. (How about a H2 hybrid car) (Score:2, Interesting)
Energy Conversion Devices has two stock Prius vehicles modified to run on Hydrogen instead of gasoline tooling around Detroit and LA. The hydorgen is stored as a Nickel Hydride (solid). Right now they can travel about 200 miles on a "tank" of hydrogen.
More info on the web site. http://www.ovonic-hydrogen.com/home/home.htm [ovonic-hydrogen.com]
It's also been on CNBC.
http://release.theplatform.com/content.select?pid= XOfv_P9SrRHQUdfpqH_nadnlA-YvYzDd&Token=-Q0QvZVYzaU gzNXFHUWxSeG5NMzByN0cx-TEY0SXF4R1N [theplatform.com]
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Probably the best solution out there for hydrogen generation is nuclear power thermolysis. No fossil fuels used, and it has a very high thermal efficiency. The
Re:I want more. (Score:4, Interesting)
But that leaves open the question of regenerative braking. A great deal of the efficiency bonus of EVs and HEVs (PHEV or no) is that they do regenerative braking. You can't effectively use a fuel cell for this without an intermediate storage medium, which currently means batteries (as we've been waiting for supercapacitors to get good price:performance for many years now.)
If you have to add batteries in to store the power from regenerative braking until you can accomplish electrolysis of water, then you have inefficiency and weight to deal with. And you probably won't be able to store it in this solid form, which I suspect won't be a very portable process (although I am willing to be proven wrong.) So you'd lose out on one of the major benefits of using an electric vehicle.
Re:I want more. (Score:4, Insightful)
Oh, fine, you talked me into it. Let's say you want the charge from 110km/h (30.5 m/s) in a 600kg vehicle. That's a kinetic energy of 0.5 * 600 * 30.5^2 = 280 kJ. Let's say that you can recover 250kJ of that. That's ~70 watt hours. A little over 1kg worth of NiMH batteries. Not a big deal, wouldn't you say?
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Now, give me enough hardware to do that thirty times as I drive from one corner of SF to another, and take into account the maximum practical charge and discharge rates. Also take into account the weight
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NiMH batteries have a specific power around 200 W/kg. Let's say we're talking about 1.5kg. 70 Wh would indeed take too long to be useful, at 14 minutes for discharge. However, with such small weights, why go with batteries? Just with what's on the market right now (which is a literal order of magnitude behind the next gen), and you're looking at ~6 Wh/kg and ~2kW/kg. ~70Wh => ~12kg. Not a big deal. And for discharge rate? 24 kW, discharging 70 Wh => 10.5 seco
Re:I want more. (Score:4, Interesting)
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Weight % is the main focus in hydrogen storage. Most techs are 5 years and I would buy in.
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It's usually done with an electric current, and most people think it's electrolysis, but it's not. The most popular design takes aluminum welding wire off of a spool and feeds it up against a rotating aluminum cylinder, all submerged in water (the purer the better of course).
Place a few thousand volts
Very light on details. (Score:5, Insightful)
This article reads like the typical press release aimed to stir up grant money and venture capitalists. Too bad that UNB doesn't have a stock ticker symbol.
Somebody feel free to submit the details about this when they're released.
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From the page:
Light metal hydrides such as AlH3 (5) and complexes like NaAlH4 (6) , whi ch contain a high percentage of hydrogen by weight, are attractive as on-board sources of H2 in vehicular applications.
Link: http://v8nu74s71s31g374r7ssn017uloss3c1vr3s.unbf.c a/~smcgrady/research/index.html [v8nu74s71s...3s.unbf.ca]
Sweet (Score:5, Interesting)
Assuming the energy needed to perform the condensation is not lossy, this technique is going to be da bomb. :)
Haha. But seriously, this is what the "hydrogen economy" needs. You could even grind the powder fine enough to be a slough, and 'pump' that into your vehicle's fuel tank.
When George Bush first proposed hydrogen as the solution to our fossil-fuel habit, everyone mocked him for failing to understand that hydrogen is just a storage medium, rather than an energy source. I suspect he knew that all along... but since most Americans don't know it, he persuaded them to (at least in principle) buy in to the idea.
Once there is enough interest in hydrogen, the "hydrogen economy" will indeed take off (e.g. today's breakthrough), and at that time we will be groping for a way to produce hydrogen in bulk. The optimal way to produce bulk hydrogen is of course a nuclear reactor. And so by this (alas necessarily) indirect route will Americans come to accept ubiquitous nuclear power. And that is exactly what Bush wanted (or at least should have wanted) all along.
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What?
There is NO reason to have a nuclear plant in your backyard.
As supposedly unsafe as centralized nuclear power is (hint: if we actually used modern reactor designs, they would be much much safer) it's a lot
Re:Sweet (Score:4, Insightful)
The thought that one of my profs mentioned in a business class was that IF this technology advances enough, that you could literally go to Walmart and buy your fuel off of a shelf. Since at room temperature the stuff is completely stable, is there even a need to have a gas station like environment?
-Rick
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Using hydrogen to power a car? (Score:4, Insightful)
Using hydrogen to power a car is insanely stupid.
There is no scenario for the use of hydrogen in a terrestrial vehicle that would not be rendered safer, cheaper, and less polluting by taking whatever source of energy used to manufacture hydrogen and directly applying it to move the car -- skipping the extremely wasteful hydrogen conversion/transport/storage processes. Electrons are much easier to produce, ship, store, and use than hydrogen. There are already LiON battery technologies that promise very rapid charge/discharge cycles with no thermal runaway, and over 9000 complete charge/discharge cycles [altairnano.com]. NiMH and Ni-Zn, while not quite as good in some ways as LiON, are still more viable than using hydrogen, whether by burning in an ICE, or in a fool-cell. And last time I checked, we are much closer to being able to build 50,000,000 EVs than we are to being able to build 50,000 fool-cell vehicles, because lithium (and nickel, and zinc) is far cheaper and more plentiful than platinum, which so far, is the only reasonably (?) effective catalyst for a fool-cell.
Hydrogen will only be the fuel of choice for two groups: Those who have more money than sense, and those who can freely spend other people's money. Those of us that have to spend our own money, and don't have enough to burn, will go for more efficient technologies, such as EV and bio-diesel. Unless we are coerced by the government.
Political Correctness makes lousy science, lousy economics, and even worse public policy.
Details anyone? (Score:2)
Does anyone know anything about this, besides it's the same sort of thing we've been reading about for years. (Dissolving Hydrogen into another substance then realsing it at will).
Is there something different here? What materials are they using. Is 9% actually a GOOD number?
If you'd settle for 2% then check this one (Score:5, Interesting)
Seems I read there was a similar system that is used in one version of the hydrogen powered car prototypes and they say they can get a hundred miles per tank on tanks about the size of a scuba tank.
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So can a moped.
Which is to say: we need a better metric.
I suggest what aircraft use: miles per gallon per passenger (assuming full occupancy, which means divide the number by four if it's being used in the US.) Unfortunately that doesn't include range, because there are lots of great transit options if you only need to go a couple of blocks.
People expect a range of about 600 km or 6 hours, whichever comes first (except for pr
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(for the humor impaired)
Finally! Instant water (Score:2, Funny)
Just add water for a delicious instant beverage.
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/Homer J. Simpson
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Don't you mean just as oxygen for a delicious instant beverage?
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Denmark already did this? (Score:3, Insightful)
One would do something I do not recall (perhaps pour water or an electric current over them?) to release the hydrogen, but otherwise they were inert. (I don't know what happened to that technology since, however.)
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Solid H (Score:2, Funny)
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More of what they're doing at the research group's site [www.unb.ca].
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I'd think you'd be quite disappointed with lack of ambience in your fireplace, however. Pure hydrogen burns with a nearly invisible flame. But heck, if all you care about is the heat, then who cares what it looks like when it burns.
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I'm imagining the blast radius of the first couple test failures.
Been done (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:Been done (Score:5, Funny)
There are, however, plenty of advantages to the oxygen-hydrogen storage matrix, the most significant of which is that it can also be used to chill a refeshing potent potable.
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soo.. put your future looking hat on... (Score:2)
using oil is changing the balance of the carbon cycle, by releasing carbon that was tucked away under the earth millions of years ago.....
how does using borax change the "hydrogen" cycle?
Flamewar in 3,2,1..... (Score:5, Funny)
Danm I love this joint!
You left out... (Score:3, Funny)
And the wiseass respone to same.
You Forgot... (Score:3, Funny)
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But you forgot about cueing the guy pointing out that one of the most important factors for vehicular power sources is energy density, and that currently hydrogen along with its containment system absolutely sucks in this regard.
Heehee (Score:2)
This said, most of universe's energy comes from the fusion of Hydrogen nuclei.
Sometime in the future.... (Score:4, Funny)
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A virus is caused by a pathogen... let's see... pathogen... pathogens... pathogens are carbon-based life, which means they're mostly water. Water is mostly hydrogen... hydrogen... Ah! Hydrogen is flammable. Flame is hot... and our sun fuses hydrogen, which means the sun is hot. I've got it! We'll launch the aliens into the sun!
(If you don't get the logic, you must have missed the movie.)
weight (Score:2)
That sounds familiar, water is only 11% hydrogen by weight, but nobody seems to have cared about that when they wanted to use water as a base fuel for cold fusion.
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But if all you're doing is reducing it with oxygen in the air, you're going to have to fill your tank fairly often if you've only got 9% hydrogen in your tank.
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Here's the abstract, for more information (Score:2, Informative)
extracted:
Investigation of the Direct Hydrogenation of Aluminum to Alane in Supercritical Fluids
Alane, AlH$_{3}$ has many of the properties that are requisite for materials to be considered viable for onboard hydrogen storage applications. Most notibly, it contains 10.1 wt{\%} hydrogen and undergoes dehydrogenation at appreciable rates at temperatures below 100$^{\circ}$C. However, the very low, $\ge $ 6 kJ/mol, enthalpy of dehydrogenation of AlH$_{3}$ prohib
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Just what is a Usable Solid? (Score:3, Insightful)
If there is a residue, then it's a new Storage Container, and not a Usable Solid. If that's the case, then it needs to be easily rechargeable/refillable, quickly rechargeable/refillable, cheaply rechargeable/refillable, safely rechargeable/refillable/transportable, and provide good energy density for its overall weight and volume.
Does this system meet all these requirements? Hard to tell.
Yeah, I can name a usable form of solid hydrogen: (Score:2)
It is also very cheap to manufacture, and can be delivered to your home at a price cheaper than dirt or gravel in volume. And it is also found in quantity at most fuel stations where you buy gasoline, so the need to establish a seperate distribution system is not going to be too much of a problem. Indeed, the major oil companies already offer it for sale at premium prices from in
Re:Yeah, I can name a usable form of solid hydroge (Score:2)
Pelletized hydrogen sounds like a novel idea that it might just work if they can get the energy/wei
So, to clarify... (Score:3, Funny)
Oh, so you mean, all we have to do now is figure out a way to store hydrogen that's safe, compact, lightweight, and affordable? Well hell, son, why didn't you say so? Our troubles are over!
Press Release vs. Peer Reviewed Article (Score:3, Insightful)
How about liquid hydrogen storage? (Score:3, Funny)
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Even better, design it with 2 carbon atoms. I'm sure you could fit 6 hydrogen atoms on there AND an oxygen atom - imagine that - you're increasing the hydrogen to carbon ratio from 2.25:1 to 3:1 and you're even providing part of the oxygen for combustion. This theoretical fuel should provide more than enough energy to power a vehicle and comes
Yet another gimme-a-grant press release (Score:3, Informative)
TFA is *very* short on details but, as far as I can determine, they have nothing more than a (slightly) more efficient gas/metal adsorbtion method.
To illustrate *how* short on detail it is, take the quote "The way to do this is to turn hydrogen into a compound -- a solid -- so you can use it when you want, safely, in the amount you want."
Hydrogen aDsorbtion (which means sticking to the surface of, rather than being pulled into the structure of (aBsorbtion) onto metals) has been known about for a very long time. Using these techniques does do away with the classical problems of storing hydrogen cryogenically (cold, volatility and risk of explosion) but for a *huge* cost of energy-density/weight ratio. So much so that it isn't really worth the effort. Even if they have achieved a ten-fold improvement over traditional (titanium) adsorbtion methods, it wouldn't be nearly enough to be viable consumer level energy requirements.
It's not actually solid hydrogen, it's chemical. (Score:4, Interesting)
I present you: The Wheel (TM) (Score:4, Interesting)
Oh well, it's something else completely, I guess.
Yeah sure.. (Score:2)
Eureka!! They've rediscovered Paraffin!!
Pick Any Three (Score:4, Insightful)
>'The next step is to produce a safe, compact storage system for the compound that is both lightweight and affordable.'
You want safe, compact, lightweight, and affordable. You can have any three.
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Of course it will be light weight! (Score:2)
Winky added for the humor impaired.
Hydrogen Burning != Zero Pollution (Score:4, Informative)
New chemical for hydrogen storage, 15% hydrogen! (Score:2, Insightful)
The magic compound is called iso-octane, which contains 85% carbon and 15% hydrogen. If we could only solve the small technological p
I'll bite. (Score:3, Interesting)
* manufacture said compound (AlH3)
* store said compound
* use said compound with high efficiency in fuel vehicles
After all, its volumetric density is fair (I calculate it at
My question is - where are we going to get the aluminum? This would require a MASSIVE production spike in aluminum - to provide a replacement for the ~ 400 million metric tons of gasoline that the US alone uses.
(source: http://www.energy.ca.gov/gasoline/statistics/gaso
)
Right now, the amount of aluminum we produce globally per year is about 20 times lower - 23.8 million metric tons yearly to be exact (source: http://www.world-aluminum.org/stats/formServer.as
So the only realistic way of doing this would be to recycle the aluminum and 'rehydrate it'. And there would be a hefty price premium on the creation of the fuel ($12 / gallon at current aluminum prices, which would probably go up dramatically if this took off)
Overall then this is a mixed bag. The infrastructure costs would be substantial in creating the distribution network for the fuel, both for hydrating and recycling the fuel containers, and the energy cost would be horrific in making the aluminum.
At 30 kilowatt hours / liter, and 700 grams CO2/ kilowatt hour (if the energy making the aluminum was coal), this corresponds to 19000 grams C02 / liter of fuel, versus the 2000 grams CO2 / kilowatt hour that you get by simply burning the gasoline to go! The aluminum had better be VERY recyclable.
I'm skeptical. It'd be cool if it works, but we'll see.
Ed
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