DNA to Test Theory of Roman Village in China 203
Reverse Gear writes "Many of the inhabitants of a lonely village in north western China seems to have distinctive western features. An old theory from the 50s suggests that a Roman legion lost in what is now Iran in the year 53BC lost their commanding officer. They traveled east, so the legend goes, working as mercenaries until they were caught by the Chinese 17 years later. The Chinese described them as using a 'fish-scale formation', which could be a reference to the well-known Roman phalanx technique called the 'tortoise'. The remainder of the legion, it is suggested, may have intermarried with the villagers in Liqian. Scientists are now trying to verify the fascinating theory by testing the DNA of the inhabitants of the Chinese village."
First they conquered Europe... (Score:2, Interesting)
suspicious?? (Score:5, Funny)
Gu Jianming, who lives near Liqian, said he was surprised to be told he might be descended from a European imperial army. But the birth of his daughter was also a surprise. Gu Meina, now six, was born with a shock of blonde hair.
If my wife gave birth to a half Chinese baby and told me that it was descended from an ancient lost tribe of Chinese settlers, I might be somewhat suspicious. Gu Jianming, wake up man, she cheated on you... My guess it is with the blond guy you saw in the village about 9 months ago!
Re:suspicious?? (Score:5, Funny)
Your math is shocking... either that or there has been some technological advances not reported on Slashdot.
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Re:suspicious?? (Score:5, Funny)
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While chuckled while reading the article and had the same thought, genetically, that's not possible. Blond hair is a recessive trait; you need both parents to have the gene. So unless one of this fellow's parents also had an af
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Re:First they conquered Europe... (Score:5, Interesting)
Anybody familiar with history will know Europeans have long rambled across most of Asia. Even today there are fully European looking people in Afghanistan, and most Indians and all Persians and Pakistanis have some or even alot of European ancestry. Despite the name 'European' the 'Europeans' have always lived in parts of Asia.
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Too bad... (Score:3)
We wouldn't have to do all this DNA checking if they kept their Imperial ID cards with them...
Not the first indication of Europeans in China.. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Not the first indication of Europeans in China. (Score:2, Informative)
Yeah, but that proves little; Taklamakan is a Soft Place. Those guys could have wandered back from 6000 AD for all we know, stopping for a picnic with Fiddler's Green along the way.
Re:Not the first indication of Europeans in China. (Score:3, Funny)
Commenting on the discovery, Professor Cartman said "These people - the Gingers - were the chosen race but with their red hair, freckles, and pale skin they obviously could not stand the sun."
Re:Not the first indication of Europeans in China. (Score:5, Interesting)
While trying to hunt down the Amazons origins, they visited some nomads somewhere in China (or Mongolia, can't remember where exactly) and took DNA samples of a blonde 10 or 12 year old girl with distinct Caucasian features -- although her mother had none of these whatsoever.
Lo and behold, her DNA (and her mothers!) was identical to DNA samples taken from an Amazon mummy of something like a warrior-priestess found in what is nowadays Ukraine.
Meaning, the girl was a direct descendant of that woman who lived around 2,000 years ago.
Re:Not the first indication of Europeans in China. (Score:5, Informative)
The outer Mongolia is the region to which every single major Eurasian human migration can be traced. Before DNA techniques, language techniques and historical references have been used to trace these migrations.
Most of that has now been confirmed using DNA. There was a number of waves going as far back as the Dorian invasion which overthrew the bronze age greek civilisations and established what 500 years later became the golden age greece. This was followed by gotts, westgotts, barbarians, huns, bulgarians, etc. All of them displaced from outer mongolia a few centuries before they ended up in Europe.
The early waves were speaking indo-european languages and with distinct caucasian appearance. The last ones (huns and pra-bulgarians) were speaking languages from the Turk language group and were of mongoloid appearance.
So finding a blond or even a redhead in mongolia is not suprising. After all Chengis Khan was a redhead.
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Most of that has now been confirmed using DNA. There was a number of waves going as far back as the Dorian invasion which overthrew the bronze age greek civilisations and established what 500 years later became the golden age greece. This was followed by gotts, westgotts, barbarians, huns, bulgari
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I'm confused by the emphasis on the word direct here. How could you be an indirect descendent of someone? Either you can trace a lineage path back to them or not.
It's surprising that prominent genetic features like hair colour could survive so many generations of interbreeding with non blondes but I guess if that person was promiscuous enough, they started a broad enough tree that chance allowed the blonde gene to sur
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Of course. Maybe I should have put the emphasis on 'was' instead.
As far as I remember, the scientists were just looking for clues about the origins and where stunned when they realized that the girl was actually related to a 2,000 year old mummy they found (more or less) by accident.
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Re:Not the first indication of Europeans in China. (Score:2, Funny)
On a message board discussing the blonde and redhaired Chinese, somebody noted that there are a lot of them in Canada, but that their origin was not Tocharian or Scythian, it was L'Oreal!
Unclear (Score:2, Funny)
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Oh come off it (Score:2)
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Re:Unclear (Score:5, Informative)
Put your 50BC brain in gear (Score:4, Interesting)
Your brain sees -- clearly -- a picture map of the world from space.
A 50BC brain sees no such thing.
To the well-educated 50BC brain, it would be self-evident that continuing to travel East will bring you to the edge of the world. Perhaps they planned to then circle around the "edge" and come back "up" the Nile -- something that's hinted at in the "Alexander" film that came out a couple of years back.
Or perhaps they figured they'd circle "around" to the North, and come down "through" Gaul to get home.
This is all assuming that such a "lost legion" did, in fact, exist -- something I personally feel is unlikely.
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And you are thinking with a 2007AD brain that his been conditioned with a false sense of intellectual superiority and incorrect popular myths.
So much seems to have been forgotten in Europe during the Dark Ages - the question is: is there any proof the people of Spain and Italy believed in the Flat Earth Theory in 1492? Obviously Columbus had been aware of the 'ancient' studies and figured he could hack shipping. He apparently didn't know of the Nors
Mod parent up (Score:2)
No, they didn't think the Earth was flat at Columbus' time. They even knew the approximate circumference of the Earth, which is why they (correctly) thought Columbus was a crackpot. He thought the Earth was a lot smaller, therefore it'd be a relatively short trip across the Atlantic to India. This was obviously wrong, but h
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Yes, Crassus lost a battle against the Parthians and was captured and executed. Some 150 men managed to escape. Historians assume they hired themselves out as a mercenary force and headed east, where they fought the Mongols - whose history describes having encountered a foreign fighting unit that used "scales of the fish" tactics (possibly the testudo formation) near that time period.
It's all
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a bit far... (Score:4, Funny)
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Photos of Liqian Residents (Score:5, Interesting)
slide #7 features a young girl with semi-blond hair, and #10 is a close-up of an older man with green-hazel eyes.
I remember the story a little differently... (Score:5, Interesting)
THE LOST LEGION
The battle of Carrhae [wikipedia.org] ended 53 years before the birth of Jesus Christ, in the last day of the month of may, with a shameful disaster for the Roman army. Seven legions having the strength of 45,000 soldiers were humiliated and routed by 10,000 Parthian archers. Carrhae, an ancient biblical city now known as Harran, is located on Turkey's oriental border. The commanding officer of this unfortunate expedition was Marcus Licinius Crassus, a 62 years old tribune who had organized that campaign eager to gain glory and wealth, even though he was already one of the most rich and powerful men in Rome. Perhaps he did it just because he envied the military successes of Pompeius Magnus and Caesar, and foolishly thought that he may equal them, even though Pompeius Magnus and Caesar were war professionals while Crassus was a mere amateur. His only triumph had been the bloody defeat of Spartacus, but achieved with Pompeius' help: in fact he had too little experience and genius to embark on a large-scale operation abroad.
The Republican government loathed to let him depart with such a sizeable army as there was no real emergency in the east, but Crassus eventually enlisted the support of Pompeius Magnus and Caesar, who did not fail to see the opportunity to free themselves of a powerful competitor whilst waiting to settle the score with each other. During the hot public debate in the Senate a tribunus plebis named Ateius attempted to stop him. Plutarcus writes that, when he realised that his efforts were in vain and that he would not receive enough supporting votes, he lit a brazier and, while throwing grains of incense into the flames, started to curse Crassus and evoke the infernal gods. Judging from the name and the behaviour of this man, we can guess that he was of Etruscan descent. Some metropolitan legions grouped in Rome and marched through Campania and then met at Brindisi with the others coming up from Calabria and then left in spite of the stormy sea. Not all the ships reached the other shore. Crassus had fortune, the blind goddess, on his side during his youth: he came out unscathed from the civil wars; then was implicated in the Catiline conspiracy but bore no consequences; he paid the debts of a spendthrift Caesar whilst being tightfisted himself and with his family. But things had changed and while aging he became a blunderer, making mistakes which were numerous and serious. For instance, in a speech to his soldiers he proclaimed that he would destroy a bridge "so that none of you will be able to return". Noticing their dismayed expression, Crassus corrected himself by explaining that he was referring to the enemy, not his own soldiers. He ordered the distribution of lentils and salt to the troops, oblivious of the fact that this was the meal offered at funerals. The worst possible omen occurred when Crassus dropped on the floor the slippery entrails of a sacrificial animal that were placed in his hands by a haruspex. (a soothsayer) Crassus attempted to correct this mistake by crying, "Fear not, despite my age, the hilt of my sword will not slip out of my hand". On the day of the battle, Crassus wore a black tunic, instead of the purple one de rigeur for Roman generals. Even though Crassus quickly returned to his tent to change, he left his officers speechless. We can still imagine those officers crossing their fingers ("fare le corna", forefinger and little finger raised, a very efficacious propitiatory gesture of Etruscan origin) and grasp a certain part of their body. Moreover, Crassus refused to listen to his veterans who were in favour of marching on the coast and avoid the desert to reach the Parthian capital. Rather, he trusted the arab Arimanes and his six thousand horsemen, who had secretly sided with the Parthians and abandoned the Romans few
I stand corrected (Score:2)
It wasn't out of ill intend that I twisted the story to sound as if the romans were "happy mercenaries", to me that was also what the news sites I read about this gave me a bit of the impression that this was what had happened.
I did not come upon this information in my (admittedly scarce) research for this posting, I am thankful for you bringing this up to me. I will at least correct my blog (no editing is allowed in
Macedonians in Pakistan (Score:5, Interesting)
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Fish scale (Score:2, Interesting)
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There's at least one case related in a Roman work about a siege where the defenders toppled a siege engine off the walls hoping to break a testudo that was attacking them. I don't know if it succeeded or not, but that doesn't sound like that bad a formation. I agree that it wasn't the be-all and end-all of formations, but it worked quite well when used properly. Probably it's best to think of it as the Roman equivalent of a tank with the s
this is cool and all (Score:2)
i'm not trying to be negative, but perhaps a motivator of sorts.
The other way round... (Score:4, Interesting)
Now this is nearly unelievable because I know this area: mostly plains, lots of roads. Such a story seems unlikely to the casual listener; however, I did ask an Haematologist about it. He confirmed this story which is well-known in the field.
Some humans just like to travel, you know... (Score:5, Interesting)
My theory is humans just like to travel around a bit, or sometimes settle far from home because of economic or political necessity or benefit. Hey, we see it today, why not 2000 years ago?
In the UK we've got Hadrian's Wall, big old wall the Romans built in the north of England. There's documented proof that soldiers from other parts of the Empire were stationed there, from north Africa, Greece, Spain, etc... Who's to say a few of them didn't taking a liking to the place and decide to settle, maybe met a local girl, got a bit of a good little business number going locally, that sort of thing?
The idea of a bunch of soldiers going freelance in exchange for a load of money and ending up quite a long way from home (Romans in China) - well why not?
Crassus' Ghost Legion (Score:2)
"Liqian" is supposedly "Roman" Sinosized.
This made the news in 2005, when the walls and tombs were found:
http://orbis-q [orbis-quintus.net]
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What failed coup? Crassus [wikipedia.org] was the Governor of Syria and was killed when he invaded Parthia. There may have been a later general that was ejected as you write, but not Crassus!
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IRAN (Score:2, Informative)
God-damn Romans... (Score:2)
Crassus's soldiers? (Score:2)
I was surprised from the comments here that no one mentioned Crassus or his defeat at Carrhae as possibilities, then I read TFA and it's right in the article itself!
According to accounts of the battle, of a 30,000 strong force, 10,000 were killed, 10,000 survived and 10,000 were captured and either employed as slaves or mercenary labor:
From http://www.unrv.com/fall-republic/battle-of-carrh a e.php [unrv.com]:
In the end, the great bulk of the Roman army was hunted down and killed or captured. Nearly 20,000 were killed and another 10,000 captured. Of the original force, only about 5,000 men under Cassius, and the cavalry that departed early, managed to escape. The Parthians meanwhile, settled the Roman prisoners in an eastern territory called Sogdia. Interestingly, the Han Chinese later captured this area and the Roman transplants were likely among the first westerners to meet the Chinese directly.
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Italians either drown everything in tomato sauce or they drown everything in cream and butter sauce.
Damn, now I'm hungry.
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Wow, there's a lot you don't know about Italian cooking if that's your impression. I think you just described the Olive Garden, not an Italian kitchen.
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Re:Pasta (Score:5, Interesting)
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It's worth pointing out that European spaghetti refers here to the noodle itself and not what we think of now as prepared "spaghetti" since the tomato didn't find it's way to Italy until the 1700s.
4,000 year old noodles. (Score:2, Interesting)
Unless the Romans were making noodles 4,000 years ago [guardian.co.uk], there's no chance they invented noodles. Seeing as 4,000 year-old Chinese noodles have been found, it's pretty clear who invented noodles.
Still fresh? (Score:2, Funny)
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Re:How can they test? (Score:5, Informative)
I haven't read the article... but I don't think they will use the standard 13 markers used for e.g. paternity testing. More likely to use the chips that contain more than 500000 markers to get a good coverage of the genome. Assuming only one Roman was in an individual's ancestry, after ten generations 0.5^10*500000 = 488 markers would be from the Roman. Only one needs to distinguish Asian/European ancestry for some sort of proof. It would still be difficult to make an definitive statement about Romans but give the good circumstantial evidence I don't think the burden of proof will be too high.
Re:How can they test? (Score:4, Informative)
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Nifty stuff... of course the hard part is sitting in the region and getting people to give you genetic samples. I forgot to ask her what exactly they collect for samples.
Simple ... she swabs the crockery/silverware after eating dinner with them. Bon appetit! :D
What, you thought she captured specimens of some other *ahem* genetic material? Well that was just wishful thinking :D.
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It seems that the rest of Slashdot has a much more haploid oriented view of DNA collection than I do.
--
Evan
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Re:How can they test? (Score:5, Insightful)
A roman legion is most likely all male. while possible a few women a were present it is doubtful. especially after being lost for 17 years.
Re:How can they test? (Score:5, Funny)
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Yeah, if a woman was along with all those lost men, she would have asked for directions!
Kerguelen... (Score:2)
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If a woman was along with all those lost men, she would probably be too exhausted to ask for directions.
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I was thinking the same thing, but how many of the original bunch would have stuck with the legion for 17 years? Seems likely to me that they would have dropped out over time and been gradually replaced by locals. <shrug>
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Supposing that the Romans introduced spaghetti to the Chinese!
Hmmmm......
And then Marco Polo brought it back?
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Re:But... (Score:5, Funny)
Ahhhh yes, "Directivus Primus".
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Just asking...
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Re:Liqian == Legion? (Score:4, Informative)
Not sure how well Slashdot handles Chinese, but the characters are . ("Li" is the 'li' meaning 'beauty' on the right, with the horse radical on the left, and means 'black horse'. "Qian" is the 'gan' meaning 'dry' on the right, with the 'leather' radical on the left. The simplified form is this: .
Given that it's only really the English pronunciation of "legion" that resembles the Chinese word (which is pronounced like English 'li-chien' would be; Wade-Giles romanization is li-ch'ien with aspirated ch), the resemblance is probably a coincidence. Then again, I have no idea how western Chinese people would pronounce those characters, so it may indeed be a corruption of "legion". I hope it is; that would be fascinating!
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Obviously the Chinese characters aren't displaying as well as I'd been hoping. (To be even more accurate, on my screen they're not displaying at all.)
Here's a Google search for the characters in Liqian: http://www.google.com/search?q=%E9%A9%AA%E9%9D%AC [google.com]
Here's a site which contains these characters (see the photo in the lower right; just above the Latin letters "Liqian": http://china-world.info/china28c.htm [china-world.info]
You should also be able to see them on this page: http://mujin.parfait.ne.jp/mujins/sanguo/geodic [parfait.ne.jp]
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This [china-world.info] gives the Simplified characters for the name.
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Lamar, thanks for the catch. I hadn't noticed that all three of my links had the traditional characters.
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On my web-search for "Roman looking" Chinese I found this commented slideshow [telegraph.co.uk] (flash) showing a little girl with blond hair and a local farmer with green eyes.
Well, let's see what the DNA study will uncover.
Btw - Liqian and "legion" does sound similar, but keep in mind that the original Latin pronunciatio
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Btw. Rome is indeed an interesting issue, even nowadays- Anyway, we have way too many countries already claiming to be inheritors of the roman throne. Currently we have, indirectly russia, basically france, or nowadays the whole EU, also maybe you can add greece, and also the united states.
None of those countries or regions currently claim anything in this area directly, but all of them see themsel