Ancient Astronomical Computer Decoded 233
slimjim8094 writes "A mechanical device from 150BC was found in a shipwreck. Upon examination with X-Rays, the device appeared to be a revolutionary computer used to calculate lunar cycles. This device "is technically more complex than any known for at least a millennium afterward." From the article
"The hand-operated mechanism, presumably used in preparing calendars for planting and harvesting and fixing religious festivals, had at least 30, possibly 37, hand-cut bronze gear-wheels, the researchers said. A pin-and-slot device connecting two gear-wheels induced variations in the representation of lunar motions according to the Hipparchos model of the Moon's elliptical orbit around Earth."
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Re:I knew it! Land that time forgot? (Score:2)
Wikipedia.... look out Shakra and the Sleetaks might be coming back...
Re:I knew it! (Score:5, Interesting)
I know you're joking, but given the fact that we're finding old stuff based on some pretty intense knowledge, I'm starting to think that Graham Hancock might be right about us being older, as a race, than we think we are. [grahamhancock.com] He attracts a lot of criticisms, but mostly from egyptologists because his interpretations of artifacts found contradict theirs. The book is an excellent read though.
Though aliens would be fun too, I suppose...
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Re:I knew it! (Score:4, Insightful)
No, it just shows how much damage to civilisation the Romans actualy did. This is an important point in the days of Pax Americana.
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Re:I knew it! (Score:4, Insightful)
-world class civil engineering: there are many structures built by Roman engineers still standing and a number are still in use
-the concept of republican government (and I mean in the sense of a body of legislators elected by citizens empowered to conduct community business; not the US political party)
-extensive body of literature and philosophy which forms much of the foundation of Western civilization today and is still relevant
-preserved Greek literature, structures, and philosophy and incorporated same into Roman culture
-demonstrated that a large political body composed of many regions incorporating a variety of cultures and races could be established and be stable and peaceful
I am not saying that Rome was perfect and obviously its society eventually became corrupt and thus vulnerable to destruction, but it is absurd to talk about Roman damage to civilization.
Re:I knew it! (Score:5, Funny)
Brought Peace? (Score:2)
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That easy... Spray Paint it on the Moon!
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Re:I knew it! (Score:4, Funny)
After a couple of decades, he told them "It was this guy named Eddie."
Now, I ask you: is Wright an Iron Maiden fan, where Eddie would tie into the whole Egypt/mummy thing, or a Van Halen fan?
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Swi
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Honestly, does every artifact have to be religious? You'd think the ancients never did anything secular.
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Being a lunar calendar ...
Er ... ok. Can I be an Irish calendar? Yes that right, today is Guinness day, the third of second Guinness this year.
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Yes I find it crazy that a sentient being has always existed too, but no more crazy than inanimate matter existing and then becoming sentient beings..
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Anyone who knows anything about Stargate knows that the pyramids were the landing pads, not the spaceships themselves!
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So it's an astrolabe? (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm only in history 101, and I knew what it was from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrolabe [wikipedia.org]
Re:So it's an astrolabe? (Score:5, Insightful)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_Computer [wikipedia.org]
Ancient Engineering (Score:5, Insightful)
When you look at devices like this, the precision construction of the pyramids, the alignment of Stonehenge, and some of the Aztec and Mayan engineering in North America, it's pretty clear that the "primitive" people weren't as primitive as we might think.
Even without hard mathematics, a great deal of engineering can be done with simple tools:
The interesting thing to me is that despite the varied religious and social backgrounds of the regions, every single case seemed to reserve that knowledge of basic engineering for some form of priesthood. Some say that this indicates there was a global or root religion, whether some form of Freemasonry, Kabal, Egyptian, or older religion.
Personally I think it's the obvious outgrowth of all those people living in a world that conforms to the same physical laws, properties, and geometry. No matter what language was used to describe the technique for inscribing a circle, the actual work done would have been the same.
I've even heard some people postulate that such primitive peoples "worshipped math and geometry". I suppose that's so in the largest scope, but I think it was a worship of knowledge and learning, not of mathematics per se.
It's also interesting how certain proportions and combinations of those basic shapes repeat across history and cultures. It's like we're hardwired to find those combinations comforting and familiar, no matter how they've been used.
Sinuous shapes are much less common. Only a few societies seem to have made regular use of constructs like "French curves" on a large scale, and only in more recent times. Combined with mythos of evil or powerful serpents and dragons, perhaps those symbols actually indicated rare individuals who could work with and visualize those formulas. After all, there is no denying that people working with advanced mathematics seem to intuit solutions, then prove the answer correct, or work through the details of the calculation.
Perhaps the "wizards" of old were those rare individuals, and the dragons they helped slay were actually charts and graphs predicting eclipses and such, misunderstood by peasants who saw scribblings on parchment or castle walls that they could only interpret as being pictures of some fantastical beast. :)
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Don't ignore the moral implication:
How dare the slave master complain how the slave is treated!
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Some say that this indicates there was a global or root religion
I've seen this mentioned before. For instance in a god's name.
Believed to come from Deus Pater (dewouspather)in Proto Indo-European (PIE) culture, "Sky Father" comes both Jupiter (Latin), Zeus (Greek), Dispater (Gaulish), Dyaus Pita (Sanskrit), Dievas (Baltic).
Dhghom Mater (Earth Mother) is Demeter (Greek), Mati Zemlja (Slavic), etc.
I'm sure even to this day Mother Earth is still a concept you are familiar with... and possibly father sky. Interestingly enough the Egyptians may have had a Mother Sky
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As far as I recall, the Egyptians considered their pharoahs to be representatives of their sun god, Ra.
Probably one of the first things the most primitive of peoples might have thought about is the sky and the earth. They couldn't escape the earth; they couldn't touch the sky.
Thus the "heavens" became the unreachable comfort/good, while the concept of a hell below ground developed from inescapable daily misery and suffering.
Is it really surprising that so many cultures have names for those two conce
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Which modern "empires" would those be?
The US, Canada, and Australia are about 200 years old.
The EU has been broken and reformed in different countries and pacts repeatedly for a century. Only a few of the European countries have had anything like stable borders or socio-economic management styles (government.) Even the UK isn't 1000 years old.
The oldest cultures of Asia and India are still not stable socio-eco
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The CEO and board of directors are people. I hold them responsible.
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I wonder what Twain would have thought of the internet.
What would any of the prophets, leaders, or icons of the world religions have done if they had been able to use the media or internet as televangelists of various religions do?
In particular, consider the deep thinkers who discussed concepts such as a virtual/mind-only reality, or who philosophically came to understand senses and sensation without knowing the biology behind it. Can you imagine such minds with a modern education?
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yes it is regrettable when languages are lost whether we can decipher them or not, but I believe the Mayan language has at least been partially deciphered.
http://www.pauahtun.org/MayanGlyphs/syllabary.html [pauahtun.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popol_Vuh [wikipedia.org]
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Probably a prototype (Score:5, Funny)
The production version probably had a sleek plastic case and LED display, but probably only supported lunar cycle calculation and none of the other farming predictors or epicycle calculators.
It was the Greek Apple, so to speak. The Grappa.
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i-Strolabe
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At least it wasn't the Grapple [grapplefruits.com].
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*splorf!* Okay, Eris.
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I guess Rick from Casablanca said it best: We'll always have Paris.
The Antikythera (Score:5, Informative)
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I find this google news link [slashdot.org] rather informative myself. ;)
Re:The Antikythera (Score:4, Insightful)
More so, Google generates more than 110 hits on the Antikythera on slashdot.org [google.com] (I hope the link is functioning this time)
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I'm just saying that the statistic you posted is not very relevant for your argument.
The first 10 or 20 results in google might be relevant to a search, but they pretty much go to hell after that. This is usually enough to find whatever you were looking for, or to know that you should try anothe
What mysterious tommorow devices from today? (Score:3, Interesting)
Currently I have a Nixie clock for the same 'guest amusement' function. In several millennium when this creation is rediscovered it will seem oddly complex and mysterious. Bill Gates and Scott McNealy, what mysterious technical devices are in your living room?
So whats a Nixie? Forgot already have we? Jeff Thomas and Laurence Wilkins build good Nixie clocks.
http://www.amug.org/~jthomas/clockpage.html [amug.org]
Cheers,
Jim Burke
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This was in a museum in the late 60s when they were they height of technology; they were indeed amazing pieces of miniaturization. I didn't know it at the time, but my future father in
Greek geek showmanship... (Score:5, Funny)
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Oh oh...up next.. (Score:2, Funny)
Microsoft CEO Steve Balmer was quote as saying 'Microsoft reserves the right to protect its intellectual property for the benefit of innovation. Essentially, if you as a company CEO were to ask me if you had a balance-sheet liability for using the Antikythera Mechanism, my answer would have to be yes'.
Hipparchos, the alleged creator of the Antikythera Mechanism, could not be reache
Imagine if that ship hadn't wrecked (Score:5, Insightful)
*looks outside* Darn, still no flying cars!
Re:Imagine if that ship hadn't wrecked (Score:5, Insightful)
Why would you assume that this was device was unique?
It seems much more likely that this kind of object was rare (ie, difficult and expensive to build) rather than unique.
It is important to remember that the ancients were just as intelligent as we are. In many cases they were also civilised and well-educated.
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Technology this sophisticated (both in terms of mechanical design/theory and fabrication) doesn't just spring up out of the blue - this represents highly evolved technology. There must have been a whole series of simpler geared devices that lead up to this one, and likely more sophisticated ones that came after that unless there was some catastrophic disruption to the civilization that produced it right at that time.
There's certainly been regressions in huma
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"Hey guys, lets take this brand new device which is technological leap years ahead of our current technology and would certainly sell for a lot if more were produced, and lets stick the only one we got on this here ship and send it off to god knows what fate on the sea."
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The helicopter shaped hieroglyphic is the strangest. It's more likely to mean
something like "the setting sun behind the gate of the temple".
Sophistication - Math or machine? (Score:3, Interesting)
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The term "Archimedes screw" has nothing to do with Greek orgies.
"They didn't need mechanical devices because they had slaves."
I suppose next you will tell us that no slave was ever given a plough to work the fields. Slaves must be caught, bought, domesticated, fed, watered, clothed, housed, ect, they are not without cost, they are mearly the cheapest form of labour. Today's slaves are called "factory workers
Moo (Score:3, Funny)
Translation: Some crank ex-programmer was gearing up for a raise with the loony idea of cyclic checks, and was ready to ship the classy object in C when it began to wreack havoc and the whole thing sunk. A new developer tried to insert a byte to handle the Y1K bug.
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In related news... (Score:3, Funny)
It wasn't actually bronze! (Score:2, Funny)
Obligatory (Score:2, Funny)
Maybe time to add a few more gears (Score:2)
The goods (Score:3, Informative)
More goods (Score:2, Informative)
See it move (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/n
Math wise, simple yet briliant (Score:5, Interesting)
Simple math that we all can understand.
The sun gear has 64 teeth.
It meshes with the smaller of a 38,48 gear pair.
The 48 meshes with the smaller of a 24,127 gear pair.
The 127 meshes with the 32 teeth of the moon gear.
The ratio of angular speeds can then be calculated as (64/38) x (48/24) x (127/32)=(254/19) = 13.36842..
which is an excellent approximation of the astronomical ratio 13.368267..
This corresponds with the Metonic cycle, in which 19 solar years correspond exactly with 235 lunations,and therefore with 254 sidereal revolutions of the Moon.
Thus. for every 19 (direct) turns of the main drive wheel; this produces 2,356/2 revolutions of the whole differential turntable, and all the gears mounted upon it.
This is just awsome. You can pin point where the moon will be located, just by turning one wheel a certain number of time, according to what year is it. Thus, you can tell what the tide will look like days, weeks, months ahead of your trip at sea.
How come this device died and disapeared for centuries? Given the Egyptians knowledge of the earths equinox, this was the key to discover America way before Colombus did.
Re:Math wise, simple yet briliant (Score:4, Funny)
Someone found it could also play music, and they lost all interest in finding america....
my guess: it was overly difficult to make (Score:3, Insightful)
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Technology is culture. Every viable technology requires a group of practioners large enough to transmit it across generations. That means they must have the resources to train apprentices and sufficient prospect of future revenues from their work to attract capable people.
The Athenian Greek leisure class (free adult male citizens) were interested
The dark ages hit Greece? (Score:2, Interesting)
In the early middle ages, you had the reign of Justinian and continual development up through what is considered the ``go
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But for some centuries Roman intellectual and technological power was centered in the West, and it is likely that the techological community that created this device would have migrated west as Roman power grew in the 1st century. So when the Western Empire fell, there is a good chance that the community was no longer able to sustain itself, if it had not already failed due to the vast increases in economic hardship during that last century before the final division of the Empire and the collapse of the We
Lots of assumptions there (Score:2, Interesting)
For most of the Byzantine era, Byzantium was a superpower. Outside of brief but notable incursions by the Muslims (who by that time were rather heavily Hellenized) and the Bulgarians, most of Greece was under Greek control from the beginning of the Byzantine era (whether you measure the beginning from the third or from the fifth centu
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Except for one part: the Mediterranean has barely any tide.
So, they would use it for other things, but not that.
Greek culture extended past the Mediteranean (Score:2, Interesting)
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pwned (Score:3, Funny)
The decoded message.... (Score:2)
A crummy commercial?!? Sheesh! Why did we even bother decoding that?
Good news! (Score:2)
single genius possible (Score:3, Interesting)
There are probably many such geniuses unrecorded in history. Writing systems appear fair ly suddenly in dyanastic Egpyt and the alphabet in Urgait. Other historians suggest long transitional phases, with some evidence. But I can equally envison some light-bulb guy doing this in a single career.
Perhaps the clock machinist was one of these geniuses.
Not a Computer (Score:2)
It says clearly that the antikyhera can NOT be called a computer but a calculator.
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Re:Not Again (Score:5, Insightful)
What was posted earlier was a pre-story. Basically, that this latest research had finished and was going to be presented at the end of the month. It has now been presented, and this story covers the details that were not covered in the pre-story.
Re:Not Again (Score:5, Informative)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6191462.stm [bbc.co.uk]
Worse than a dupe (Score:2)
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Hmm, 2.314x10^6 Hz would give 1.99x10^11 dupes per day, or 9.99x10^11 every five days. I don't think there are that many.
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Brett
Re:erm ... (Score:5, Informative)
That story lacks details, and notes that the research with the details will be presented on November 30th. That's today, and the present story covers those details.
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The fact that most of US read slashdot and know the content better than the staff is SAD and makes slashdot look unprofessional and shoddy if its own editors can't detect whether the same article has been already posted or not.
Simple.
And no, I'm not a troll, but after years of bitching about this, it is getting rather pathetic.
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It is not professional.
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