Golf in Space 251
deeptrace writes "Tentatively scheduled for a spacewalk this summer, a Russian cosmonaut will take his trusty six iron and a special weightless-friendly tee and put a golf ball into orbit from outside the International Space Station. The golf ball has an embedded transmitter so that it can be tracked as it orbits. It is expected to orbit for 3 to 4 years before burning up on re-entry. The golf shot is the result of promotional fees paid to the Russian space agency by a Canadian golf club manufacturer."
Great... just what space entrepreneurs need... (Score:5, Insightful)
gah... (Score:3, Insightful)
(2) the speed of the space junk will be the speed of the space station, +/- the speed of your swing (see (1))
(3) there is a very thin atmosthere at low earth orbit deteriorating the orbit of anything there, further slowing the golf ball with time
(4) due to the nature of the spin of the earth and the fact that you get a boost from it, all spacecraft are launched in the same direction.
(5) therefore any collosion with the golfball at a later time will be a
Re:gah... (Score:2)
It's also true that the golf ball, like other small space junk, will eventually re-enter. Will the transmitter still be worki
Re: (Score:2)
Re:gah... (Score:2)
Re:gah... (Score:2)
By the way, not all satellites orbit in the same direction, many are in "polar" orbits, i.e. surveillance sats, Iridium sats, etc. A collision would not be low speed in these cases.
Serious threat (Score:2)
(5) therefore any collosion with the golfball at a later time will be at a velocity SLOWER than the swing, far slower than any other piece of space junk out there, and definitely not a threat. Not to mention there is a TRANSMITTER in there. They will see it coming and wave
ISS orbits inclined at 56 deg. A satellite orbiting in polar or equatorial orbit will be hit at a relative cos(i - 56). That can be a lot, like ~8000mph. It is a pretty irresponsible act given that space debris is already a serious pro
Re:gah... (Score:2)
Re:gah... (Score:5, Interesting)
Yes, actually, I do. I'm an aerospace engineer.
Now Y is moving several thousand miles an hour else it would simply fall to the earth.
Try several tens of thousands, 17,500 mi/h for LEO.
It is also moving at several thousand miles an hour, but it's on a reciprocal orbit of the golf ball.
You didn't read (4). No one uses reciprocal orbits in LEO. Hardly anyone uses reciprocal orbits... ever. The velocity the earth gives you by rotation is significant; working against it is stupid and is used very rarely, and generally only in GEO when you are trying to maintain a constellation of satellites (GPS).
Now, would you like to guess at the energy transfer of a collision at those speeds?
Kinetic energy = 1/2 * m * V * V; transfer depends on the elasticity of the collision.
I'm not stuipd, I just know the assumptions better than you do.
Re:gah... (Score:2)
17,500 mi/h is not even two thens of thousands... dunno about you, but my definition of "several" starts at more than 2 or 3... ;-)
Re:gah... (Score:2)
A bit about orbit geometry. (Score:2, Insightful)
This is a stupid "experiment". That transmitter will likely last days at best. In any case, the USAF which maintains the most complete and widely used space catalog does not & cannot use that transmitter to track the object. They rely exclusively on radar & optical observations to maintain the catalog. And this object is to small to be reli
Re:A bit about orbit geometry. (Score:2)
RTFA much? (Score:2, Insightful)
The odds of this being a problem for 'space entrepreneurs' is probably comparable to me winning powerball within the same timeframe. Space is big. Really big.
Re:RTFA much? (Score:2)
I don't personally feel comfortable making forecasts of orbital mechanics based on the acceleration vector of a human golf swing. It's not a particularly predictable energy input, and one good slice might put the golf ball into an slightly eccentric permanent orbit.
Or not. I don't have an intuitive feel of the scale of the energies involved, but if the golf ball's projected orbit will last for years, I
Re:RTFA much? (Score:2)
I doubt a golf ball can slice in a vacuum. Slicing is all about aerodynamics, and without air, there ain't much slice. And when the ball gets low enough that there is a little air to let it slice, it will just slow it down even more and make it
Re:RTFA much? (Score:2)
That's just the problem: it's not without air. It's very sparse, but you still get a steady, light hypersonic drag. The ball will be trailing weak shocks around it as it moves.
Of course, you don't get too much easier to model, in terms of laminar and turbulent flow, than a golf ball. Perhaps if it was closer to a perfect sphere it might be a bit easier yet, but this should be a fairly predictable flight once they get the initial tracking data.
Re:RTFA much? (Score:2)
Re:RTFA much? (Score:2)
According to a previous post, the ISS orbits the earth at a relative velocity of about 17k miles per hour. I don't know the speed that a golf ball typically travels at, but for the sake of argument, let's be generous and say it's something ridiculously high like 250 miles per hour. Even if the cosmonaut in question purposefully hit the golf ball as hard as he could perpendicular
Re:RTFA much? (Score:2)
I do. Next to the velocity of the station, the additional velocity imparted to the ball by the golf club is not worth mentioning. The orbit degrading, and the ball burning up on reentry in 3-4 years is exactly the same projection as for the ISS itself in the absence of regular orbit-maintaining boosts.
Re:RTFA much? (Score:2)
Really? Hmmm, I like those odds. I think I should like to watch this on TV and win the lottery.
***Me scurries out to buy powerball tickets and a bigger TV***
Re:Great... just what space entrepreneurs need... (Score:2)
Balls? Worry about divots. (Score:3, Funny)
Canadian Club (Score:2)
Re:Great... just what space entrepreneurs need... (Score:2)
(1) The iss is not in geosync
(2) What if it hits you going the other way?
Re:Great... just what space entrepreneurs need... (Score:2)
Re:Great... just what space entrepreneurs need... (Score:2)
Re:Great... just what space entrepreneurs need... (Score:2)
So lets say we have a satellite in orbit which we're worried about being hit by this golf ball. Maybe it's just me, but I'd think the 370 metric ton ISS would make a significantly bigger impact than the golf ball travelling 50 mph faster.
Who in their right mind is going to put anything into an orbit which intersects the ISS orbit? Except possibly the extraterrestrial cell of Al Qaida, in which case this golf ball might b
Re:Great... just what space entrepreneurs need... (Score:2)
The space shuttle and the International Space Station (ISS) move at speeds of 7.5 kilometers per second (17,000 m.p.h.) with respect to the ground.
So the Golf ball will be moving at 17,050 mph
but I'd think the 370 metric ton ISS would make a significantly bigger impact than the golf ball travelling 50 mph faster.
Though its easier to adjust the orbit of the ISS than it is the golfball, and honestly its not going to
Re:Great... just what space entrepreneurs need... (Score:2)
It's going to have to, otherwise it will burn up pretty damned quickly. If he fires it up relative to orbit, in 1/2 an orbit it will be back where it was, altitude wise, but heading down into the atmosphere. At 3/4 of an orbit it will be at it
Re:Great... just what space entrepreneurs need... (Score:2)
Re:Great... just what space entrepreneurs need... (Score:2)
Assume he hits it in the same direction as the station is traveling, thereby giving it an orbital boost. A good hit (but probably not while in a space suit) might give it an extra 200 mph. So its orbit will expand, and will be higher than the station for a while. But that higher orbit also takes more time, so the station will overtake it and pass it eventually, probably
Re:Great... just what space entrepreneurs need... (Score:2)
In any event, the crater size is immaterial since what you'd really want to do is figure out how to get your suit on and sealed in 20 seconds or so while the air is blowing out the golf ball sized hole where it came in, and the saucer sized hole where it went out the other side.
--
Cheers, Gene
Great, more space junk (Score:2)
Re:Great, more space junk (Score:2)
Was it a Green Golf Ball? nt (Score:2)
Yeah, we don't have enough junk in orbit (Score:2)
Getting hit by a golf ball travelling 27,734 km/h would REALLY suck.
Re:Yeah, we don't have enough junk in orbit (Score:2)
Re:Yeah, we don't have enough junk in orbit (Score:2)
Odds of an impact are better than you think (Score:2)
"With a relative impact velocity of 10 km/s, a piece of aluminum debris which is ~0.7 mm in diameter can penetrate through a typical 2.5 mm thick aluminum satellite wall. During its 5.75 year exposure, LDEF saw one (1) impact of this size per 7 [square meters] of exposed surface area in the RAM direction. In addition to this, LDEF experienced ~1 impact [per square meter], on ram-exposed surface
Hey, give them a break! (Score:2)
And, hey, we owe the Russians a little slack. Without them to give U.S. astronauts a ride, the ISS would have to be abandoned.
-Eric
Re:Yeah, we don't have enough junk in orbit (Score:2)
I bet (Score:2)
Sorry.
Oh please god yes (Score:5, Funny)
Cheers,
Ian
And make sure it burns up on re-entry too! (Score:2)
Are we the only 2 people who don't get golf?
I don't get it at all. You pay a buttload of cash for the equipment, for bad clothing, and for the privilege to play on a manicured field. And you keep paying the latter, over and over again, to avoid sucking that badly.
All this for "a good walk spoiled".
Sorry, I have an MBA, and I still don't understand the fascination. I can increase positive cash flow by opening my front door and have an unspoiled good walk for free. And that reminds me..
And
Re:And make sure it burns up on re-entry too! (Score:2)
Re:And make sure it burns up on re-entry too! (Score:2)
All this for "a good walk spoiled".
This is the reason why. [golftoday.co.uk] It's the money.
Re:And make sure it burns up on re-entry too! (Score:2)
I'm with Carlin on this one, there are only three sports. Football; baseball; and basketball. Everything else is either a game or an activity. Golf is definitely not a goddamned sport.
Carlin's characterization of golf is also dead on: "It's like watching flies fuck."
Baseball? American Football? (Score:2)
I'd disagree with you on Baseball. I find it only slightly less boring than golf, at least at the major leagues. Watching a minor league game is still fun, because the players still care. And as for football, I assume George Carlin was talking about American football. *spits* Maybe half of the game is actually spent playing. The rest is abitrating rules.
But then again, it's all a matter of op
Re:And make sure it burns up on re-entry too! (Score:2)
Replace baseball with ice hockey on Carlin's list and you've sold me.
If the golf ball punctures the side of the ISS.... (Score:2)
It could be worse.. (Score:2)
Re:It could be worse.. (Score:2)
I'm not sure how much of an industry we're talking about.
A caber is, after all, just a tree trunk. It's not like you need an 'official' caber from a specific manufacturer.
Just think how far you could throw it in a low-G environment. But, then you'd need space kilts or the Scotsmen would all cry foul. =)
It's all fun and games... (Score:2)
Still, just about anything that might get, say, your average golfer to remember (even for a moment, once a day) that we have stuff, that we put there orbiting around the planet... that's worth it. I wonder sometimes if the occasional golfer who found his way to the new course using the GPS-enabled nav system on his new Lexus is even aware that a bunch of orbiting hardware and thousands of people working on the gr
Re:It's all fun and games... (Score:2)
roflmao.
What if he chips it? (Score:2)
-Rick
Re:What if he chips it? (Score:2)
Do you get a drop? (Score:2)
Watch out for those deserts... (Score:2)
Out-of-this-World Record (Score:2)
Alan Shepard won the first hole (Score:2)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/
Cosmonaught to Play With Ball in Orbit for 4 Years (Score:2)
Most expensive (Score:2)
In space nobody can here you play golf! (Score:3, Informative)
"The ball is expected to remain in orbit for three to four years."
"The ball is expected to travel up to 2.1 billion miles before it drops back into the atmosphere and burns up."
TFA doesn't say if that distance is based on 3 or 4 years, so I'll work out both and give a max & min average velocity:
Min time in space = 3 years = 1,096 days (2*365 + 1*366: leap year in 2008) = 26,304 hours
Max time in space = 4 years = 1,461 days (3*365 + 1*366: leap year in 2008) = 35,064 hours
2.1 billion miles / 26,304 hours = 79,835.77 mph
2.1 billion miles / 35,064 hours = 59,890.49 mph
So the average speed will be between 59,890.49 mph & 79,835.77 mph!! (or 96,384.16 kph & 128,482.90 kph)
Considering the speed of sound (at sea level) is 761mph it's just as well in space nobody can here you play golf!
Haydn.
Re:In space nobody can here you play golf! (Score:2)
Re:In space nobody can here you play golf! (Score:2)
Carnival side show (Score:2)
Tentatively scheduled for a spacewalk this summer, a Russian cosmonaut will take his trusty six iron and a special weightless-friendly tee and put a golf ball into orbit from outside the International Space Station.
Is there any better example of the pettiness and utter pointlessness of the ISS? The program has been reduced to a carnival side show of paid stunts and celebrity guests. It won't be long until its hull is rented for advertising. I can imagine it eventually looking like a NASCAR racer. The p
Re:Carnival side show (Score:2)
To be honest I think this is exactly what it's going to take to see real human exploration of space. It's easy to see that they countries with the resources are willing to do little to make a real space program, we need commercial dollars invested and if this little stunt is going to show a profit and help the ISS along I'm all for it.
Re:Carnival side show (Score:2)
Yeah, let's do the science stuff too, sure, if there's really an interest. But have you eve
The trouble with those Russians... (Score:2)
6 iron? (Score:2)
Good Lord! (Score:2)
I can't hit a golf ball 30 feet. This is impressive. I would like to think that it would either burn up or move from the planet faster. I always felt that keeping something in orbit was a bit harder than basically hitting it with a stick.
Three to four years? (Score:2)
Um, this doesn't sound right at all. It will be lauched from the ISS, with a speed almost identical to that of the ISS, so it'll basically be in the ISS's orbit (at least at first), just like Suitsat [nasa.gov]. But Suitsat is expected to burn up in less than six weeks -- and the golf ball is expected to last thirty times as long?
ISS loses about 2 KM of altitude per month [heavens-above.com] if it doesn't use it's engines to gain some altitude (it's in a rather low
Re:Three to four years? (Score:2)
Re:Three to four years? (Score:2)
Of course atmospheric drag is related to surface area. Perhaps I just didn't go into enough detail on the square-cube law ...
If you take an object and double it's size in each dimension, it's surface area increases by a factor of four, but it's mass increases by a factor of eight. (Assuming that density remains a constant, of course.) Since atmospheric drag is roughly related to the surface area, this means that the drag will also increase by a
Re:Three to four years? (SPACE GOLF) (Score:2)
Quite right ... and interestingly, golf balls are engineered to maximize the length of their flight, subject to PGA rules. Most likely, that engineering assumes "normal" atmospheric conditions, so I don't know whether the ball will in practice have extended flight in the relatively rarified conditions around the ISS. It might depend on the configuration of the radio antenna as well.
Also of interest: PGA rules [pga.com] say, "... if you damage or cut your ball, you may change the ball after first asking your oppone
Reg golf ball could orbit at 354km at most 1 year (Score:2)
The inputs to that program are:
0.04593 kg satellite mass
0.00143 m^2 satellite (frontal) area
354.2 km satellite orbit
(no space weather)
Even if the golf ball's effective area (well, the "frontal area", which is what we're concerned
Re:Reg golf ball could orbit at 354km at most 1 ye (Score:2)
How about the ball? (Score:2)
Maybe it's more than just a golf ball. Maybe it's some super secrete Russian spy satellite and not really a golf ball at all.
--
Q
orbital mechanics-- BONK! ?? (Score:2)
Kim Stanley Robinsons Idea Would Be Cooler... (Score:2)
I believe it's in this one that one of the side stories is about a "space golf" tournament in an astroid field that involves lobbing a small clump of rocket propelled debris at a "hole" astro
Apollo 14 (Score:2)
Last thing the space station needs (Score:2)
Trusty six iron (Score:2)
sounds pretty much like
American astronaut will take his trusty balalajka and play few of his favourite tunes
ie - completely out of space.
PS For those loonies who put this news bit together - 90% of Russians don't even *know* what the golf is.
Accuracy of shot? (Score:2)
Since the golf ball has no propulsion ability itself, and they hauled 6 of them up there, are they going to simply wail off 6 shots and hope one actually goes into a reasonable orbit?
One would assume that they are firing it behind the space station (ie, it will go dozens of mph slower than the space station) so it'll have a better chance of de
Rules official please - I need a ruling! (Score:2)
Re:Satellites (Score:2)
Re:Other sports (Score:2)
It's called a joke (Score:2)
Re:Yardage? (Score:5, Informative)
From TFA:
"The ball is expected to travel up to 2.1 billion miles before it drops back into the atmosphere and burns up."
<sarcasm>I know it's a really hard conversion, especially for the techie crowd on
Re:Yardage? (Score:2)
2.1 billion miles to yards
Re:Yardage? (Score:2)
<pedantic comment>That's not necessarily true, TFA doesn't mention if it uses the American billion (most probable) or the British billion (3 extra 0's)... while google is possibly correct, it could also be wrong if the article uses the British billion. However 2.1 billion miles = 3,696 billion yards as long as both sides of the expression use the same billion.</pedantic comment>
You can slap me now =)
Re:Yardage? (Score:2)
Re:Yardage? (Score:2)
Bruce
Re:Yardage? (Score:2)
Re:Yardage? (Score:2)
And you can't really measure the yardage until the ball lands and comes to a stop... and since this ball will never land (it will disintegrate before landing), it'll never count.
Plus, if you count distance from where it was launched, and keep in mind that the space station keeps on moving after the ball stops, it'll
Re:That's a really big.... (Score:2)
Re:That's a really big.... (Score:2, Informative)
Calling out 'Fore!' let him know to keep an eye out for the ball.
Nowadays, it just kinda means 'duck!' though :)
Re:That's a really big.... (Score:2)
Re:Not to be pedantic but, (Score:2)