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Lack of 'Mirror Neurons' Linked to Autism 89

Posted by ScuttleMonkey from the reverse-the-polarity dept.
FruFox writes "A recent study has pointed to a possible link between autism and lack of so-called 'mirror neurons' , either physically or functionally. This provides the first solid physical evidence to back up the theory that autism's root cause is a profound lack of empathy. This probably impacts the world of Asperger's Syndrome as well. Many Slashdot readers are undoubtedly familiar with the world of Asperger's / autism."
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Lack of 'Mirror Neurons' Linked to Autism More

Lack of 'Mirror Neurons' Linked to Autism

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  • Schizophrenia (Score:2, Informative)

    by poopdeville ( 841677 )
    Is there a link between these 'mirror neurons' and schizophrenia? Schizophrenia and autism are very similar in symptoms and epidemiology. Indeed, many researchers I know (unofficially) call autism "juvenile schizophrenia."
    • While there are similarities in the two disorders (as well as with Asperger's) the tag "juvenile schizophrenia" is misleading, as Autism is not restricted to children.

      That being said, further research into this pattern (such as to determine if there is an impact on schizophrenia) is of interest. As an aspie, I'm greatly appreciative of any information that can help me deal with the cards I've been dealt.

      • Re:Schizophrenia (Score:4, Interesting)

        by jd ( 1658 ) <imipakNO@SPAMyahoo.com> on Tuesday December 06, 2005 @12:19AM (#14191308) Homepage Journal
        The articles I linked to elsewhere in this discussion imply that Aspergers affects one section of the brain, but High and Low Functioning Autism affects two. I suggested there that this might mean that there are two independent mechanisms at play here, where those with Aspergers has one specific one and those with Autism have both.


        I got to thinking though that this would mean you'd have to have some OTHER condition in which only the second of those mechanisms was present. I don't know what the research says on this, but is it possible that the second mechanism on its own is responsible for schizo-effective disorders (of which schizophrenia is the most serious)?


        (This still means that Aspergers and Autism fall on the same spectrum, but would imply that HFA and LFA are Aspergers with a schizo-effective element. That doesn't sound right, but if that is NOT the case, we're looking at THREE independent mechanisms being involved in autism - at least - and I'm even less happy with the idea of having more variables than absolutely necessary to explain it.)

        • That's a very interesting take on the three disorders in discussion. I haven't had a chance to follow your links yet, but you've given me a lot to think about (and to discuss with my doctor). Thanks for that.
        • I've now followed the links (had to skim a couple). Very interesting indeed. I'd have to say that one of the most frustrating things about Asperger's is having the cognitave ability to understand what's happening, but being unable to stop it through force of will. Probably now after my insurance kicks over to my new parent company after the first of the year, I'll finally pursue actually getting some kind of treatment, now that I have a fair idea that it won't turn me into a flatline.

          Thanks again for the i

          • Re:Schizophrenia (Score:4, Interesting)

            by jd ( 1658 ) <imipakNO@SPAMyahoo.com> on Tuesday December 06, 2005 @02:14AM (#14191708) Homepage Journal
            Not a problem. I'm Asperger's myself - hence a lot of MY curiosity! :) There are a number of theories - and therefore a number of treatment approaches - out there, but now that actual mechanism data seems to exist, pdocs might have a better idea of how to approach Asperger's.


            In my case, it's a little confused since I have a mild seizure disorder AND have been diagnosed bipolar as well. However, the treatment I'm on for those does seem to mitigate the negative side of Aspergers some. However, without a baseline fMRI and an on-meds fMRI (plus an expert in this field), I have no hard data on that. It could equally well be that the other stuff aggravated whatever the Asperger mechanism is.


            The extensive research going on is excellent - I'm surprised it took so long for them to use fMRI, I would have thought that one obvious, although I've been told in the past by my own doctor that fMRI couldn't possibly show anything up. Clearly they were wrong on that. (* Gloat *)


            Some more information for the obsessive:



    • It's been suggested. From the abstract to a paper by Arbib and Mundhenk, Schizophrenia and the mirror system: an essay (2005):

      We suggest that verbal hallucinations occur when an utterance progresses through verbal creation pathways and returns as a vocalization observed, only to be dismissed as external since no record of its being created has been kept. Schizophrenic patients on this theory then confabulate the agent.
      Interesting stuffs.
    • How do you know if you're a dyslexic schizophrenic?

      You always think that you're following someone.

      ba-dum-bum.

      Sorry.. it's just a joke!

  • layer of abstraction (Score:4, Informative)

    by brother bloat ( 888898 ) <brother.bloat@[ ]il.com ['gma' in gap]> on Monday December 05, 2005 @10:34PM (#14190877) Homepage

    If I recall correctly, mirror neurons are associated with imitation and self-visualization. Somehow, this meshes well with the idea of autistics lacking "higher level abstraction" abilities. Specifically, mirror neurons provide a means of abstracting the idea of self. Let me explain.

    I've read that in some parts of the autistic brain, "layers" of neurons are connected directly to each other, such that every neuron in a particular layer is connected to every other neuron in the next layer. However, in normal brains, a third layer exists between pairs of layers. In this way, normal brains require fewer synaptic connections, but longer axonal pathways (i.e. a given signal takes longer to be processed, but may travel through internal layers which modify and abstract features from outer layers).

    This property is theorized to give rise, in some autistics, to "idiot savant" abilities; such individuals often excel at a particular skill or set of skills (such as multiplying large numbers together very quickly). For example, one might be able to multiply 5 digit numbers together in a couple of seconds. However, because of the lack of inter-layers which allow for abstractions (and possibly understanding/comprehension of the processed information), the same person may have no concious concept of the numerical value of real world things.

    • I've read that in some parts of the autistic brain, "layers" of neurons are connected directly to each other, such that every neuron in a particular layer is connected to every other neuron in the next layer. However, in normal brains, a third layer exists between pairs of layers.

      Link? It's been a few years since I took clinical neuroanatomy, but I don't recall running across this, and it seems quite unlikely. The formation of the neural layers is critical to the basic function of the brain (I mean any no

  • Cause or symptom? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by HotNeedleOfInquiry ( 598897 ) on Monday December 05, 2005 @10:41PM (#14190909)
    This provides the first solid physical evidence to back up the theory that autism's root cause is a profound lack of empathy.

    Wouldn't lack of empathy be a symptom of autism rather than a cause? Or that since the lack of mirror neurons is the cause, it gets expressed as a lack of empathy?

    • Re:Cause or symptom? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Gojira Shipi-Taro ( 465802 ) on Monday December 05, 2005 @11:47PM (#14191172) Homepage
      Good catch. I missed that in my initial response in this thread. Lack of empathy, inability to process non-verbal communication (particularly the non-verbal sort associated with inter-gender relations) in the same innate manner as the average person, are the symptoms of my own Asperger's that have impacted me the most.

      THing is though, older aspies eventually work it out (the non-verbal communication/flirting/pass), just too late. It's almost as if the part of the brain that most people use for that sort of communication is wired into other reasoning processes in Aspergers and Autism subjects.

      My great fear has always been that that part of my brain was (theoretically) repurposed to the skills that currently allow me to make a living, and that any cure might render me able to understand non-verbal subtext, but doom me to a life as a McDonald's manager.
      • I don't know about dooming me to working as a McDonald's manager, but I wouldn't want to take the risk. I'm quite happy with my life as a HFA and wouldn't trade it for the world.

    • Re:Cause or symptom? (Score:3, Interesting)

      by FleaPlus ( 6935 )
      Wouldn't lack of empathy be a symptom of autism rather than a cause?

      If I recall correctly, part of the problem is that it's both. The lack of empathy causes a lack of social interaction, and the absence of social interaction means that empathic skills don't get developed. This results in a rather nasty feedback loop.
  • This should serve has a reminder make backup; mirror data!

  • I'm autistic (Score:1, Redundant)

    by zappepcs ( 820751 )
    you insensitive clod!

  • Three related articles (Score:4, Informative)

    by jd ( 1658 ) <imipakNO@SPAMyahoo.com> on Monday December 05, 2005 @11:38PM (#14191137) Homepage Journal
    A study in Australia [wrongplanet.net] using fMRI showing why certain forms of autism adversely affect problem-solving abilities.


    A Neurology journal [oxfordjournals.org] article on the anatomy of Asperger's, as seen from fMRI scans


    Another neurology article [cam.ac.uk], on the anatomy of Autism, as seen from fMRI scans


    The research at the Institute of Psychiatry, by Professor Declan Murphy is beginning to indicate that autism affects the frontal and mid-sections of the brain, whereas Aspergers appears to affect the frontal sections only. Nonetheless, other studies (not linked to here) have shown that those with asperger's have an elevated probability of having autistic children. In other words, there's good evidence they share mechanisms BUT there is also good evidence that autism outside of Asperger's involves additional mechanisms that are NOT present in Asperger's.


    I asked the IoP about research on Asperger's and autism a while back, and they pointed me to the following lecture (which does not appear to be on the web anywhere):


    Frith U. (2004) Emanuel Miller lecture: confusions and controversies about Asperger syndrome. Journal of Child Psychology & Psychiatry & Allied Disciplines. 45(4):672-86, 2004 May


    I hope this information is useful, trivially interesting or even interestingly trivial, depending on perspective.

  • I honestly don't know if there are clear diagnostic tests for autism or Asperger's, or even if such tests are necessary, but could this methodology be extended to allow for conclusive medical diagnosis of autism? As I understand, it's a disorder that's characterized like other mental disorders by looking at symptoms--display enough of these signs, and you can be said to be autistic.

    Does this method allow for any child to be scanned with a medical imaging device and a conclusive diagnosis of autism given?
  • This so called lack of empathy seems really scary to me. I always thought that religion could be avoided because we all have the ability act moral without the threat of eternal damnation.
    Maybe I was wrong?
    I hope not.
    • Thinking that most religion is based on the threat of eternal damnation is pathetically ignorant, not to mention utterly unrelated to the ability to empathize and its loose connection to morality.
      • You must be new around here.

        I'm sorry to say that most discussions of religion on /. have a high proportion of pathetically ignorant (or pathetically bigoted) comments.

    • Empathy is not required to develop morals. It's easy to figure out that it is wrong to lie. The hard part, which requires empathy, is knowing when you *should* lie.
      • Spot on, as an aspie I can't lie to save my life, believe me I put this to the test as a youngster and got a few beatings ;-)

        example of how it effects my day to day life.

        SWMBO
        "does this make my arse look big"
        ME
        "No, your arse is big, I like big arses"

        Honest but probably not the best choice at this point.
    • From my own limited experience the lack of empathy can lead to causing harm to others BUT not in an intentional way. Even if they may not understand that other people can feel pain they do not go out of their way to cause pain either. An autist is not "evil" and can almost by definition never be a sadist.

      A sadist perhaps is a person who has reversed empathy, he/she gets off on the pain of others. An autist doesn't "get" that others can feel pain so would have no motivation to cause harm.

  • Consistent (Score:1, Interesting)

    by petrus4 ( 213815 )
    (Note to mods whose first impulse might be to mod this Offtopic...it is relevant, but you'll need to read down a bit perhaps to find out why.)

    "Your five predecessors were by design based on a similar predication, a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound detachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the One."
    -- The Architect talking to Neo, The Matrix: Reloaded. (Emphasis mine)

    Most people assume that the largely detached attitude of Neo is due purely to the inabilit

    • "Most people assume that the largely detached attitude of Neo is due purely to the inability of Reeves as an actor to emote. What they don't realise however, is that said lack of emoting for the most part is an integral part of the character.

      Here I always thought that the inability of Reeves, as an actor, to emote was written into the character after the fact.

    • Either this is a really good troll or...


      That line is "a profound attachment to the rest of your species"

      Otherwise the next line makes no sense at all:
      "While the others experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more specific--vis a vis..love."

    • "Show me any autistic individual with a non-Aquarian sun, and I'll show you a natal chart for the same individual with either several other planets in Aquarius, or a strongly aspected Uranus. (the planet associated with Aquarius)"

      You could probably do the same for a sizable fraction of the population, too. I'm sorry, but that assertion has about the same value as (and in fact is very similar to) the Discordian Law of Fives [westnet.com].

      Want to prove me wrong? First, define "several" and then determine what percent

    • Wait wait, are you saying you think astrology has any kind of predictive power?
  • And any slashdot poster can be expected to be intimately familiar with the pathological deficit of empathy ic understanding found in the readership.
  • Hey everybody, guess what? Most of you are just fine. You're probably either teenagers (it's normal to feel not normal as a teen), or you're under-socialized--that is, you're slightly geeky, you're inclined to overanalyze things and you don't know enough different kinds of people to be able to compare yourself accurately. Once you've gotten to know different types of people, you'll find out you're quite normal.

    I just don't think everyone's some misunderstood, tragic genius. I know I'm not anyways.

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