World's Tallest Building Causing Earthquakes? 344
IZ Reloaded writes "A geologist thinks that the increase in the number of earthquakes in Taiwan is due to Taipei 101, the world's tallest building. CNN reports: 'Lin said Taipei 101 weighed 700,000 tons and estimated stress from vertical loading on its foundation at 4.7 bars, of which some would be transferred to the earth's upper crust due to extremely soft sedimentary rocks beneath the Taipei basin. If a fault is about to crack, then a little pressure can trigger an earthquake. It's like the last straw that breaks the camel's back.'" More from The Guardian.
Nature will work it out (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Nature will work it out (Score:2)
Re:Nature will work it out (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Nature will work it out (Score:4, Funny)
Taipei 101 is "earthquake proof" (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Taipei 101 is "earthquake proof" (Score:2, Interesting)
Be careful when making sweeping claims that something man-made will stand up to Mother Nature, she has a tendency to make you look the fool.
Re: Condemning History (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Nature will work it out (Score:2)
In Soviet Russia... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Nature will work it out (Score:3, Insightful)
Any time we think that we can really have a big impact on nature, we're proven wrong. We've spent billions of dollars on levees for New Orleans, yet one small category 3 hurricane is all it takes to breech them. We build sea walls to hold back the ocean, yet after one or two powerful storms they disappear with little or no evidence they ever existed. Tsunamis can level entire coastlines.
The notion
Re:Nature will work it out (Score:4, Interesting)
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Nature will work it out (Score:4, Interesting)
Just for reference and apocryphal, facilities built near the Alberta Tar Sands take into consideration that a certain tilt for a large installation may happen as voiding occurs underground.
I've had a look at the civil drawings for one of these projects and there are deep piles everywhere. Mind you, this installation was the largest installation of its type ever (2 huge air compressors), so every precaution is taken.
Re:Nature will work it out (Score:3, Informative)
-AD
Acoustics of the old Carnegie Hall (Score:3, Interesting)
When we were tunneling for the 3rd water tunnel, the rock was hitting 16,000psi - 20,000psi, if I remember correct. That's so hard that it's unbelievable.
Many people believed that the sold rock substrata was largely responsible for the legendary acoustics of the original Carnegie Hall [widely believed to have produced the most beautiful sound of any concert hall ever built].
Sadly, though, there is widespread agreement among old-timers that the acoustics were permanently ruined by the 1986 "renovation".
Re:Nature will work it out (Score:4, Interesting)
In general, no building of size can be built in NYC until they've excavated down to "sounding rock". Yes, a guy actually gets paid to come in with what amounts to an advanced tuning fork and bangs the rock to determine whether it's sufficient.
Re:Nature will work it out (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Nature will work it out (Score:5, Funny)
The notion that a rocket can actually make it to the moon is totally preposterous. This sounds more like someone trying to justify a grant or raise money than any serious science.
Does not logically follow (Score:4, Insightful)
More specifically, if you believe human activity cannot affect seismic activity, I encourage you to read up on the Rocky Mountain Arsenal fluid injection study. In fact, here's a good overview [umich.edu] of the various ways in which humans affect seismic activity.
*And don't get be started on this word, which is fraught with interpretative baggage. Remember that scientifically we are part of nature too, so it's not a question of "humanity" affecting "nature," but rather one aspect of nature affecting another.
Re:Nature will work it out (Score:5, Informative)
http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/feat
By screwing with nature we caused all that damage during Katrina, that article was written a year ago. It had been known for decades that we'd been screwing up the whole region and eventually it was gonna come back and get us. Naaah... we can't really have much of an impact... Whoah! Hey where'd the Aral Sea go?
http://unimaps.com/aral-sea/index.html [unimaps.com]
Mods, why is this guy a 5? Induced Seismicity is explained several times in other posts... are you too busy trying to protect your "We can't hurt the earth" biases?
Tsunamis can level entire coastlines (Score:3, Informative)
good post, overall (i agree w/ it). just a small metaphor nit: coastlines are by definition already level (they are where the "altitude above sea-level" is zero). of course, you meant the human artifacts built upon those coasts, i understand...
Re:Nature will work it out (Score:3, Funny)
All together now... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:All together now... (Score:5, Insightful)
But it almost always warrants looking into.
Re:All together now... (Score:5, Funny)
Someone gets it! I have been saying this for a long time as I have been trying to get a research grant to investigate the relationship between a decrease in the number of pirates and an increase in average global temperatures (see graph [venganza.org]).
Re:All together now... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:All together now... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:All together now... (Score:2)
Re:All together now... (Score:2)
Should put "year/temp" at bottom, and "# of pirates" on left. Having 3 things to reference threw my brain into a fit for a second. Plus, it's 2:25am where I'm sitting....
Re:All together now... (Score:2)
Re:All together now... (Score:2)
There have been 205 pirate [bbc.co.uk] attacks this year alone. The graph you refer to, while cute, is wrong.
Re:All together now... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:All together now... (Score:3, Funny)
Ahhhh! Then they are illegal combatants, and are not afforded the rights of the sea!
So instead of keeling them or making them walk the plank, we can lock them up indefinitely with objective of obtaining Pirate intelligence for the War On Piracy.
Re:All together now... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:All together now... (Score:4, Funny)
Please in your good graces mod parent funny.
Kindest regards,
some random dude who talks like a wanker.
Perhaps the factor in question is the global decrease in number of pirates?
Re:All together now... (Score:2, Funny)
Do you mean ...at China here in Taiwan or ...at God here in China?
Re:All together now... (Score:3, Funny)
Not quite. He is saying that earthquakes in the present caused the contruction of Taipei 101 in the past.
Obviously, even if we had the ability, we shouldn't do anything to stop the earthquakes. If we stopped the earthquakes, Taipei 101 would vanish, or more
No, it's clearly the pirates (Score:2)
Which pirates? (Score:2)
And do only pirates who say "arrrrrrg" count here?
Re:Which pirates? (Score:2)
But whose definition of pirates are you using?
You know, pirates jack ships, kill the crew, and burn them to the waterline. And there are more of them of late, just not around the USA.
Tallest != Largest (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Tallest != Largest (Score:5, Interesting)
Comment removed (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Tallest != Largest (Score:2)
22:14, 13 October 2005 DragonflySixtyseven deleted "Boeing Everett plant" (content was: '{{deletebecause|Content pilfered wholesale from [http://www.boeing.com/commercial/facilities/ [boeing.com]].}}' )
Nice to see that someone is standing up against plagiarism [slashdot.org], no?
not so fast! (Score:2)
But did you consider biggest?
Disclaimer: English is not my first language.
Re:Tallest != Largest (Score:2)
Re:Tallest != Largest (Score:2)
Re:Tallest != Largest (Score:5, Insightful)
Think of how a 50kg woman in stilletto heels leaves dents in wood floors where a 90kg man in sneakers doesn't.
Re:Tallest != Largest (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Tallest != Largest (Score:2)
Re:Tallest != Largest (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Tallest != Largest (Score:2)
Worse: what about a 90kg woman in stilletto heels. Can you imagine that ?
Yeah: in my imagination, she boarded an airplane and got stuck in the floor.
Re:Tallest != Largest (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Tallest != Largest (Score:2)
Re:Tallest != Largest (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Tallest != Largest (Score:2, Funny)
A 50kg woman in stiletto heels? Your ideas intrigue me, and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
Re:Tallest != Largest (Score:4, Informative)
Maybe you should read this page instead:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_tallest_stru
America has the record in two of the categories for tallest structures:
Sears Tower is the tallest fully habitable structure in the world, as long as you include the antenna on the top.
and:
"The World Trade Center became the world's tallest buildings to be demolished"
Conspiracy theory (Score:5, Funny)
===
I think my statement is only slightly more farfetched.
Does slashdot cause earthquakes? (Score:2)
Re:Conspiracy theory (Score:2)
So it's true then... (Score:5, Funny)
(This looks like a job for Mythbusters!)
Re:So it's true then... (Score:5, Interesting)
I once calculated that if you spin around in an office chair, you rob the day of about 10^-35 seconds.
Of course, that's if you spin counterclockwise. Clockwise slows the earth down and lengthens the day.
If you wanna be precise, multiply by the sine of your latitude -- on the equator, it has no effect.
Of course, if you want to be precise, do the calculation yourself. I worked it out a long time ago while sitting in a spinning chair at a long overnight security guard shift. It might've been 1/10^35th of a DAY, or something. It's probably right to within a factor of ten million (10^7) and depends on how fat you are and how you hold your arms and legs.
Re:So it's true then... (Score:2)
Re:So it's true then... (Score:2)
Re:So it's true then... (Score:3, Interesting)
If you covered all the land on one hemisphere of the earth with elephants, you could shift the axis of rotation by perhaps a foot.
But the actual point around which the axis is rotating already wobbles [wikipedia.org] over the course of a year or so in an irregular circle up to 50 feet across. (there are also other drifts over the course of centuries).
This means the "North Pole" you see in pictures (I think there's a barber post stuck in the
Re:So it's true then... (Score:5, Funny)
Or at least the giant turtle they are standing on.
Biggest problem (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Biggest problem (Score:2)
Re:Biggest problem (Score:5, Interesting)
2. In order for the rest of the world to remain architecturally competitive, they were forced to build taller and taller buildings.
3. After a certain point, those tall buildings may eventually cause earthquake resulting in economic damage for that country.
A rather dastardly plan, eh?
Yeah or maybe its someone's dog house doing it (Score:4, Informative)
Well then, the straw that breaks the camel's back can be anything from the sky scrpaer, to a simple dog house in someone's backyward. Looks like the author of the article and headline article are just trying to draw an ironic episode. And since it would be impossible to prove exactly what that straw was, its clearly just speculation.
Re:Yeah or maybe its someone's dog house doing it (Score:2)
Re:Yeah or maybe its someone's dog house doing it (Score:3, Insightful)
OK, Mister "I-can't-be-bothered-to-spellcheck-my-posts". Whatever. Did it ever occur to you that the definition of "a little pressure" in seismology may be a term of art? Tha
Re:OT: your sig (Score:2)
Lawsuit (Score:4, Funny)
2) Move to Earthquake prone area
3) Put fragile stuff up high
4) File lawsuit
5) ?????
6) Profit!!!!!
It's like the last straw... (Score:2, Funny)
Ask Slashdot (Score:5, Funny)
hmm (Score:2, Funny)
Why is this on slashdot though?
Re:hmm (Score:2)
BBC article (Score:5, Interesting)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4493360.s
They Should Have Listened to Me... (Score:5, Funny)
Breaking news - butterfly wings flapping cause (Score:5, Funny)
Flapping butterfly wings cause Hurricane.
http://www.pha.jhu.edu/~ldb/seminar/butterfly.htm
Bush launches mass pesticide attack, in retalliation for Hurricane Katrina.
Induced Seismicity (Score:5, Informative)
This is called induced seismicity [wikipedia.org], and I really would be surprised if a mere 700,000 tons could trigger it. It's a real problem with dams and the enormous weight of water in their reservoirs, and no doubt keeps the project managers of the Three Gorges Dam awake at night (the dam is built on a fault line).
Re:Induced Seismicity (Score:5, Informative)
Inducing earthquakes is a long known process. It was sufficiently known by the 1930's that the US TVA anticipated it during the construction and operation of its large dams and lakes. These have since happened pretty much as expected. The US War Department (Yes -- War Department - before WW2) had built Wilson Dam at Florence, Alabama and finished it in 1926. The dam has kicked off up to 4.0 quakes and frequent in the 3.0 to 3.5 range since it was completed. It occurs every few years. The US TVA Guntersville Dam and lake causes quakes in the order of 2.5 to 3.5 with some frequency.
As another poster noted the 3-Gorges dam in China is anticipated to cause quakes. The size here is expected to cause quakes in the order of 7 to 8 on the Richter Scale. It has already caused numerous quakes in the order of 5.5 or so. There have been quakes upwards of that as well.
Hydro pool events are often discounted by some parties because rivers are always found adjacent to faults. This is because rivers tend to flow in the crack of a fault. The problem here is that the faults don't produce the large quakes until the lakes are added. The process clearly increases the quake intensity and frequency in the area.
The masses of water and hydrocarbon recovered from Coal Gas fields in Alabama have shown frequent quakes in the order of 2.0 to 3.5 happening in a zone which didn't have any quake frequency before. In South Alabama in the massive Natural Gas extraction efforts there the extraction of brines and natural gas have resulted in frequent quakes where the USGS says they expect few if any ever to occur. These have been in the range from 4.9 down to 2.5. The largest quake in Alabama history happened during Natural Gas well proving at the Little Rock Gas Field in Escambia County near Atmore. It was a 4.9. The Power River Coal Gas development will have quakes frequently up to 5 or 6 on the scale from this. Add these to the natural risk in the area and serious problems are expected.
One cannot say for sure what affect or effect happened at Ache in Sumatra in the quake/tsunami there but massive Natural Gas proving (Well blowing) operations were under way at the time that produced natural gas flares with fire upwards of 600 square miles in size at the time. Similar operations were under way in the region of Alaska at the time of the 1964 quake there.
It is absolutely sure that mankind can at least trigger a latient earthquake with large structures and large mining operations. It may be that such events are even partially caused by such activity.
To be fair, a large building might cause a quake as the earth adjusts to the new stress levels. It is a process that in time will settle down as there is no real dynamic change in the building's mass except the commuters. This is unlike hydro pools which change dynamically or like oil/gas operations which cause massive dynamic changes in the earth. Oil/Gas operations cause such massive dynamic changes in areas that they actually are larger than even the 3 Gorges Dam in mass changes in some areas. The withdrawal of 200 to 300 times in brine of the hydrocarbon extraction causes these operations to be the largest mass changes man is causing on the earth. Pressure changes in these formations represent some of the largest forces on the planet. Latient pressures in field like Petronius near Alabama reach up to 50,000 psi.
when a bad thing is actually a good thing (Score:4, Insightful)
Some posts immediatly labeled this fact as a negative consequence; citing one line, Often, there are unintended negative consequences to what we do no matter how good the planning is. Actually, this is not the case.
Taipei lies on the western boundary of the Philippine Sea plate; as the plates move, they accumulate energy on the boundary. Lin Cheng-horng wrote that Taipei 101 may be triggering many sismic events of magnitude 2.0 to 3.8. So this micro earthquakes are releasing energy. If Taipei 101 was not there, then this energy would accomulate to a point where a massive earthquake would occur. The more energy is released in small sismic events, the less will appear in a large earthquake (capable of destroying houses and killing people).
So, the aforementioned fact is a positive consequence.
Naming regrets (Score:3, Funny)
When junk science excells in stupidity. (Score:4, Interesting)
Now I dunno about you, but I seriously doubt that the tower weighed 700,000 tons from the moment they poured the concrete foundations, which more than likely means the micro quakes simply coincided with the beginning of construction, independant of any outside human activity.
If the quakes increased in number as the building progressed, then it could be possible.
One building can't have that much of an effect (Score:3, Insightful)
p.s. i have no geology training.
Ridiculous!! , says OpenOffice Calc: (Score:4, Insightful)
- Density of really light rock: ~ 1.2 tons/cubic meter
- Assume "supporting area" around the building: 1000 meters square
- Assume "supporting depth" of tectonic plate: 10km meters deep
- Volume of: 10^10 cubic meters
- Weight of that area around the building: 1.2 x 10^10 tons
- Building, fraction thereof: 0.00055
As a real rough calculation, the weight of the building is negligible.Tallest? (Score:5, Informative)
I must say, I find the standards for "tallest building" to be completely arbitrary, to say the least. I think moronic would be more appropriate.
I consider the Sears Tower to be the tallest by every rational measure. The Petronas Towers were considered taller only because the, err, "spire", simply met the standard for being part of the "structure", rather than being an antenna.
The Taipei 101 is taller than the Sears Tower because it has a tiny little observation-type deck up on it's spire. It's slightly higher than the highest floor of the Sears Tower, although not really a floor. That is in addition to the previous spire/antenna issue.
In addition, the Sears Tower has 110 floors, while the Taipei 101 only has 101 (hence the name). And no, the floors aren't any smaller...
Wikipedia has a very good illustration of their relative heights. After seeing it, I think most everyone will agree that the Sears Tower is taller in every rational measurement: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Skyscrapercomp
Re:it may be tall but its not the "largest" (Score:3, Interesting)
I live in Chicago, and people still try to make the argument that if you count from the sub-sub-sub-sub-basement to the top of the tranmission spikes, then the Sears Tower is still the world's {largest | tallest}.
I guess bragging rights still must count for something.
Re:it may be tall but its not the "largest" (Score:2)
Re:it may be tall but its not the "largest" (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:it may be tall but its not the "largest" (Score:3, Interesting)
Tapei 101: Spire: 508m, Roof: 448m
Sears Tower: Roof: 442m, Antenna: 527m
All well and good, until you consider:
Ostankino Tower, Moscow: Antenna: 540m
CN Tower: Antenna: 553m
More useful diagrams and comparisons [skyscraperpage.com] here.
Re:it may be tall but its not the "largest" (Score:5, Informative)
The Pentagon is the world's largest office building. The largest building by volume is the Boeing plant that manufactures 747's, 767's, and 777's in Washington. The NASA Vehicle Assembly Building is second or third.
But as far as pressure on the bedrock, I would have no problem accepting that Taipei 101 tops the list. It is an extremely big skyscraper on a relatively very small footprint.
Re:it may be tall but its not the "largest" (Score:2)
Re:it may be tall but its not the "largest" (Score:2)
LK
Re:CN tower (Score:5, Funny)
Sure, but that's like what, 474 meters US?
Re:CN tower (Score:4, Funny)
Re:CN tower (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Makes no sense.. (Score:2, Insightful)
/.ers seem to be ignoring the fact that there's an "ancient earthquake fault" (from the Guardian article) already there. The tower is just be reopening an old wound.