Toxic Moondust Bounces Like A Cannonball 156
Jotii writes "A new NASA article says that moondust fetched to Earth by Apollo 17 is now being studied. From the article: 'Zen-like, he studies the a single mote of dust suspended inside a basketball-sized vacuum chamber for as long as 10 to 12 days.' Moondust is apparently very static, and bounces like cannonballs. Another article from NASA emphasizes the dust's toxicity: 'In some ways, lunar dust resembles the silica dust on Earth that causes silicosis, a serious disease.'"
I for one, (Score:3, Funny)
statically bouncing (Score:5, Funny)
I think the poster has grasped the less than clear point that 'bouncing like cannonballs' means not bouncing at all. Perhaps 'bounces like watermelons' would have been better, but then again 'melons' and 'bouncing' in the same sentence may have distracted some of our younger readers...
Re:statically bouncing (Score:4, Informative)
Actually, the submitter seems to have mashed up the analogies in TFA to somethng unintellible.
It says "In the lunar daytime, intense ultraviolet (UV) light from the sun knocks electrons out of the powdery grit. Dust grains on the moon's daylit surface thus become positively charged. Eventually, the repulsive charges become so strong that grains are launched off the surface 'like cannonballs,' says Abbas, arcing kilometers above the moon until gravity makes them fall back again to the ground."
Note that the word "bouncing" does not appear anywhere.
Metal balls bounce better than rubber ones (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I for one, (Score:1)
what, they aren't going to try and tyranically rule us?
Re:I for one, (Score:2)
Re:I for one, (Score:3, Funny)
I finally got to use that word.
~X~
flubber (Score:4, Funny)
Re:flubber (Score:3, Interesting)
Not really; with perfectly elastic collisions is would bounce forever. The energy dissapates as heat and sound from friction against the surface, internal plastic deformation, and friction with the air. Similarly, an ideal pendulum will swing forever.
Previous Information? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Previous Information? (Score:1, Informative)
So yes, the astronauts had high exposure while walking around the moon's surface without any breathing apparti.
Re:Previous Information? (Score:2, Funny)
or maybe they died from the extreme cold, lack of oxygen and mass radiation exposure.. I can't remember the details.
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Previous Information? (Score:3, Interesting)
Now think about a particle 1/20th the size of most earthbound stuff with a much stronger static charge. It's going to stick very, very tightly to whatever its on.
Besides, what's caught to the body of the suit isn't as much a deal as what was on the shoes, and they had covers, IIRC. Not to mention everyone was in quaranteen and extreme medical
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Previous Information? (Score:2)
Re:Duh... (Score:2)
prevent the dust from getting everywhere.
Re:Previous Information? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Previous Information? (Score:5, Informative)
As to health issues, isn't silicosis the result of chronic exposure? I doubt the dozen (18 if you count the guy in the CSM being exposed on the way home) folks with the most exposure were exposed to enough, for long enough, to have any impact.
If/when we have a long-term presence on the moon, this may be an issue. I suspect one easily solved by taking a quick shower in the airlock on your way back in. Obviously you'd recycle the water, distilling it if need be to leave behind the dust. Though I suspect that in the presence of water and being allowed to sit a while, it might form a sludge that settles. Failing that, I'm sure there's something that could be added to bind it into a harmless solid.
Filtering the air, electrostatic precipitation, etc. would also likely be a good idea.
Re:Previous Information? (Score:1)
The shower would be while suited (no doubt requiring a lot of testing of new suits for water resistance). Maintaining a high relative humidity inside would probably be helpful as well.
Re:Previous Information? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Previous Information? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Previous Information? (Score:2, Insightful)
I can see using velcro to hold down lips and pieces of a suit, but to actually seal a space suit with velcro?
Can you support your statement with some evidence?
Re:Previous Information? (Score:5, Informative)
Silicosis is the result of chronic exposure to crystalline silica, and it was believed that the illness was caused by mechanical irritation and subsequent scarring (plaques) of the lung tissues. Amorphous silica was considered to be safe since its rounded aspect meant it could be removed by the body's macrophages relatively easily.
We do know now though, there is a form of acute silicosis which is caused by inflammation of the lung tissues in contact with large amounts of silica (chemical toxicity). The onset is much more rapid (weeks or months instead of years) but it is likely it will be a treatable illness where chronic silicosis is not.
Re:Previous Information? (Score:4, Informative)
One of the worries on a Mars mission (similar UV situation to the Moon) is that if a persons skin comes in contact with rocks they will be burned (chemically). This is also the reason why it is extremely unlikely that life is observable in the first couple of millimeters of Martian soil. I would imagine that Moon dust has the same hazards.
Of course if you are trying to breathe Moon dust you are either inside your capsule or have much greater worries that the chemical reactivity of the dust.
Re:Previous Information? (Score:2)
Re:Previous Information? (Score:2)
Yeah, it's a good thing they had those breathers, or they'd have been looking at some serious OSHA violations.
No doubt they would be exposed to it at some point during the mission...
Seriously, the samples were placed into sealed containers to avoid contamination of the moon material with earth material. The moon material was quarantined, then sampl
Re:Previous Information? (Score:2)
returning to their ship with dust on their suits (Score:3, Informative)
Re:returning to their ship with dust on their suit (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Previous Information? (Score:2, Informative)
Lol. (Score:3, Insightful)
Don't know if we've ever brought back enough dust to actually cause anyone harm.
Re:Lol. (Score:1)
--
Lead is toxic, but the mechanical injury of being shot is the more immediate concern...
Re:Lol. (Score:3, Informative)
Watch out NBA (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Watch out NBA (Score:1)
Re:Watch out NBA (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Watch out NBA (Score:2)
Re:Watch out NBA (Score:5, Informative)
However, as the previous poster mentioned, cannonballs do in fact bounce. However, I doubt that it would be possible to actually see the bouncing cannon ball itself, as it is probably moving at least 300 m/s or so. (I imagine that most of the collisions were highly elastic...allowing a bounce) especially since archeologically recovered canonballs dont have too much damage to them. However, you could probably see the dust rising from where the canon ball is skipping...as well as the effect on any troops in the way. I remember watching a show on the Military Channel where they filmed different types of cannon shot...in slow motion...so you could see how the ball skipped/bounced and lost energy.
Re:Watch out NBA (Score:5, Interesting)
Personal accounts by a Civil War era soldier (my great grandfather) say that the cannon balls looked like softballs bouncing across the field. He said that you would think you could put your foot out and stop it, but if you did, you'd lose your leg.
Also, when the light is right, I've seen 22 bullets in flight. (22 Long Rifle) I was a doubter until someone showed me.
Re:Watch out NBA (Score:2, Interesting)
Of course, you know that a personal anecdote is bad logic, and thus bad science, since it is a well-known logical fallacy.
However, I think your great-grandfather's story is very compelling and really cool...and matches what I saw on that tv show...although I
Re:Watch out NBA (Score:2)
Now onto debunk the rest of your post by making more Argumentum ad Logicams! (i.e. saying that your a
Re:Watch out NBA (Score:2)
Re:Watch out NBA (Score:2)
Re:Watch out NBA (Score:2)
Suggestion... (Score:5, Funny)
I think that if this study proves that moondust can be dangerous, any astronauts stationed to a moonbase should probably just stay inside. Or at least, cover their mouths while they're roaming around outside. No sense in risking your health by walking around outside on the moon without any kind of protection for your lungs.
Re:Suggestion... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Suggestion... (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Suggestion... (Score:1)
(if there are volcanoes on the moon, maybe.)
i, for one, welcome our new linguistic overlords.
Re:Suggestion... (Score:1)
Re:Suggestion... (Score:2)
I have hippopotomonstrosesquippedaliophobia... ARRRRGGHHHHHHHH!!1!!"%/(*&$£8£[NO CARRIER]
Re:Suggestion... (Score:2)
What a wierd post (Score:3, Funny)
I'd be torn. Cool space dust... or the Xbox 360 that I asked for. Descisions, descisions!
Re:What a wierd post (Score:2)
Go with the moon dust (Score:3, Funny)
Go with the moon dust. After the PS3 and Revolution come out, the moon dust will still be cool. ;-)
Fight static with static. (Score:2, Funny)
You could simply use static emitters in the lunar module to trap dust, just like a 5 billion duster.
Cheaper alternative, stick a sign on the door that says: "Please remove your shoes before entering lunar lander."
I'm confused (Score:3, Funny)
Re:I'm confused (Score:4, Funny)
They tested it by firing it at a model of the USS Constitution carved out of a grain of rice. The moondust cannonballs were found to be much more effective at doing damage to the hulls of an armada of less-well crafted microscopic ships of war.
I think the "cannonball" reference indicates the powers that be have let slip a little too much:
Re:I'm confused (Score:1)
Re:I'm confused (Score:2, Informative)
Re:I'm confused (Score:1)
1.The balls have same sizes (and thus the rubber ball less mass)
2.They bounce 'up' countering 1G of gravity. ?
That's why I said (between parenthesis) that weight reduces the bouncing effect of a cannonball compared to a rubber ball.
Re:I'm confused (Score:1)
Re:I'm confused (Score:2)
Imagine a rubber cannonball.
Now that's bounce.
bounces like cannonballs? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:bounces like cannonballs? (Score:2)
Remember the 5 D's of cannon dodgeball - dodge, duck, dive, dip, and... dodge!
Chemical makeup and toxicity (Score:4, Insightful)
On a different note now, silica dust seems to me like it'd be basically glass or ceramic powder, and it makes intuitive sense that powdered glass would be very bad for the lungs. But couldn't any finely divided dust of materials with similar properties to silica be expected to cause a similar condition if inhaled over time? I'm thinking steel dust or granite powder, or something like that. It's not like asbestos, where the "toxicity" is really "carcinogenicity."
In fact, calling the dust "toxic" makes it out to be a poison, when it's really more of a severe and persistent irritant. To call this or asbestos toxic seems a bit misleading and sensational--not to understate the dangers, but you want people to understand why things are dangerous, and in what way. Dimethyl mercury is toxic by contact; phosgene is toxic by inhalation; I think that both do more than just irritate.
Re:Chemical makeup and toxicity (Score:4, Informative)
Yes, TFA mentioned it specifically as quartz.
Ew.
The thing that makes moondust more bothersome that earth quartz dust is that the moondust is charged by UV rays, which causes it to be a lot more sticky than quartz dust is here. Also, the cannonball reference was to the dust flying up off the surface of the moon, which means that the astronauts' spacesuits (and moonbase, once we build one) will be covered from above and below in the stuff. It'll be hard to keep the stuff out if the astronauts come and go often, and once in, it can wreak havoc on their health over the relatively short period of time of a few months.
Re:Chemical makeup and toxicity (Score:2)
OK, so, from the article:
Lunar dust, being a compound of silicon as is quartz, is (to our current knowledge) also not poisonous.
So it _has_ silicon in it, and it's probably chemically similar to quartz. After a little google work, I turned up This [nasa.gov] presentation that outlines the stuff a little. It appears to be mostly silicon monoxide--similar in composition to silica, but not chemically the same. But, hell, just looking at those particles, they look "sharp edged,
Re:Chemical makeup and toxicity (Score:2)
Spinoza thought so!
Zen-like, he studies the a single mote of dust... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Zen-like, he studies the a single mote of dust. (Score:5, Funny)
Suspended in emptiness
A scientist coughs
Take your time guys! (Score:2, Funny)
Well, all I can say is, it's about time!
WTF? (Score:1)
Re:WTF? (Score:2)
layman-speak (Score:3, Funny)
i understand the instinct that drives scientists to say things like it "bounces like cannonballs" for the sake of us average joes who don't talk in kilocuries and attonewtons and femtofarads
however i would respectfully request that scientists attempting to talk in layman terms update their terminology to something after the civil war, as i don't think many of us average joes have seen any cannonballs bouncing around anywhere lately
i mean what is "bounces like cannonballs" supposed to mean? the best mental image i can come up with is a bouncing bowling ball... which doesn't really bounce- is that the point? then why not just say "it doesn't bounce"
does it make sense to say "the car drove off the highway at 80 mph and bounced off the tree like a cannonball" unless you're trying to write colorful fiction?
Re:layman-speak (Score:4, Informative)
God, that's funny.
In NASA's defense, "bounces like a cannonball" was the submitter's phrase, not the article's. The article says:
This simile, while still perhaps antiquated, makes a lot more sense.
/still imagining "bouncing" cannonballs...
Moondust is toxic (Score:4, Interesting)
The astronauts did inhale some of the moondust, with effects similar to a hay fever.
Not only that, but the dust is statically charged because of the Sun and lack of humidity, so it will stick to just about anything, causing abrasion.
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2005/22apr_don
There are plans to build a "microwave lunar lawn mower" that will melt the dust into something useful and stop it from bouncing.
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2005/09nov_law
Toxic? Nonsense! (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Toxic? Nonsense! (Score:3, Informative)
Quartz, the main cause of silicosis, is not chemically poisonous: "You could eat it and not get sick
Lunar dust, being a compound of silicon as is quartz, is (to our current knowledge) also not poisonous.
Martian dust could be even worse. It's not only a mechanical irritant but also perhaps a chemical poison.
Re:Toxic? Nonsense! (Score:2)
The dust itself won't do much oxidizing unless it gets wet.
Undiluted lye is FAR FAR WORSE than laundry bleach...
If it doesn't get much warmer than -20 deg F at the equator, and the air is about as thin as on Mt Everest, don't you think that people will be in some form of bunnysuit out there anyways?
Don't yo
Incidently... (Score:3, Informative)
Landing at Taurus-Littrow [nasa.gov]
They're just getting around to it now? (Score:1)
Another government program that doesn't understand the concept of turnaround time. Demand efficiency, or farm it out to the free market!
(Ha ha, only serious.)
Thanks Slashdot! (Score:2, Funny)
Nominated for worst Slashdot headline 2005 (Score:4, Insightful)
That makes me feel better (Score:3, Funny)
Now I don't feel so bad about how long it takes me to get around to finishing projects.
What's that again? (Score:2)
Cannonballs bounce?
I felt a great disturbance in the Force . . . (Score:2)
. . . It was as if millions of personal-injury lawyers [ferrarolaw.com] suddenly cried out in ecstasy [acr.org] and were suddenly enriched [provostumphrey.com].
Re:If you find yourself breathing moondust... (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah.
Pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicolunarconiosis.
Re:If you find yourself breathing moondust... (Score:2, Funny)
Indubitably (Score:2)
Just, Die. (Score:2)
Yeah, and by the time you finish trying to pronounce those long [wikipedia.org] words, if you aren't dead yet because of the inhaled silica dust, you'll be surely asphyxiated to death, trying to say it without stopping to catch breath.
Re:Bouncing like a cannonball (Score:3, Funny)
"The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't."
Re:Bouncing like a cannonball (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Bouncing like a cannonball (Score:1)
Re:Earth vs Moon: At least we have editors (Score:1, Informative)
"Mian Abbas did not find that the b single mote of dust or the c single mote of dust were very interesting. But the a single mote of dust, that one was fascinating. Zen-like, he studies the a single mote of dust suspended inside a basketball-sized vacuum chamber for as long as 10 to 12 days."
Re:Earth vs Moon: At least we have editors (Score:1, Offtopic)
Re:Origin Of The Toxic Moondust (Score:2)
Re:Origin Of The Toxic Moondust (Score:2)
Re:Origin Of The Toxic Moondust (Score:4, Informative)
If there were enough dust to shape the moon round, the apollo lander would have just sunk in
The layer of dust has NOTHING to do with the creation process of the moon but rather with the fact that the lack of athmosphere combined with billions of years of pulverisation of the surface through impacts has created it, plus the lack of the magnetic field has implaneted ions from the solar wind.
Re:Origin Of The Toxic Moondust (Score:2)