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Space Robotics

Robots Might Allow For Space Surgery 102

Posted by Zonk from the hold-your-hand-steady dept.
An anonymous reader writes "Robots might allow for delicate surgeries in space, reports the Washington Post." From the article: "The tiny, wheeled robots, which are about 3 inches tall and as wide as a lipstick case, can be slipped into small incisions and computer-controlled by surgeons in different locations. Some robots are equipped with cameras and lights and can send back images to surgeons. Others have surgical tools attached that can be controlled remotely ... Officials hope that next spring, NASA will teach astronauts to use the robots so that surgeries could one day be performed in space. Delays in communication because of the distance to space would mean surgeons on earth would have tell astronauts what commands to give the robots"
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Robots Might Allow For Space Surgery More

Robots Might Allow For Space Surgery

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  • delay? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 29, 2005 @05:39PM (#13906455)
    yeah but isn't the same delay present in telling the astronauts what to do as well?

  • Gonner (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Gogogoch ( 663730 )
    I'm afraid that unless you take a surgeon with you, if you need an operation in space you're a gonner. Robots... yeah right.
    • Wheeled robots?
      What happens if the robot gets some tissue stuck in an axle. Wouldn't that be a bigger issue than most of the surguries requiring the bots?

      I think we've successfully taken a step backwards.
      • He he - dont wheels kind of rely on a friction reaction for propulsion - normally generated by way of gravity? Wheeled vehicles dont really do too well in zero g.

        I seem to remember that the maximum acceleration achievable by a wheeled vehicle is, in fact, Fg, where F is the coefficient of friction, and g is g.
    • I just hope that the robots are able to protect us from the terrible secret of space. [newgrounds.com]

      Hey wait, are there stairs on spaceships?

  • ludicrous! (Score:3, Funny)

    by bogaboga ( 793279 ) on Saturday October 29, 2005 @05:43PM (#13906474)
    Are the creators of this technology saying that we shall at some point in future, have to send patients into space in order for them to have surgery? How expensive! To me, the whole project sounds ludicrous.

  • Space Surgery? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by AppleFever ( 917782 ) on Saturday October 29, 2005 @05:43PM (#13906478)
    I read the article, but why do we need to do surgeries in space? I would estimate that no more than 10 people are ever in orbit at one time, and usually we don't send up people to space in need of surgery.

    _ _ _ _ _
    Got Teeth?
    http://www.doctorgallagher.com/ [doctorgallagher.com]

    • Re:Space Surgery? (Score:2, Insightful)

      by anotherzeb ( 837807 )
      I get your point about people in space being unlikely to need surgery, but if I was going into orbit or even if manned Mars mission ever become likely (not something I'm expecting anytime soon) I think I'd feel better if there was something that could help if I had some kind of accident that left me needing surgery
      • Yeah, I'm sure a robot on Mars controlled by a surgeon on Earth is going to work. The signal delay is really just minimal.

        • Re:Space Surgery? (Score:1, Informative)

          by Anonymous Coward
          Read the post much? It will be operated by another astronaut who is trained on using the robot. They will attempt to be in contact with a surgeon as much as they can, but don't need direct contact from the earth based surgeon.
      • One thing that could help is to go ahead and have a prophylactic appendectomy! I don't know how many other body parts can be removed for a net decrease in health risk, but NASA has certainly considered checking astronauts' appendices at the launchpad, especially in the case of astronauts potentially headed Mars-ward.

        Same is often done for scientists wintering in Antarctica.
    • I didn't read the article, but if we're going to send people to mars we're looking at probably an 18-month round trip, minimum. So we need to be able to have them perform surgery in case of an emergency, and having a surgeon onboard would be one less valuable berth.
      • True not taking a doctor with you would leave more room for others, but would you really go on an 18 month journey without a doctor? Why not take the surgeon along who has can not only heal but deal with other biological studies.(Plants, human behavior, etc)

        • Would you want to get surgery from a doctor who hasn't done any surgery in 40 months? (18 there, 18 back, plus several months on Mar - emergency comes up just before you get back home, too urgent to wait) Particularly if the surgeon is not a specialist in that area?

          These device seem like a much better idea, particularly if they come up with an "AI" that can do the more common surgeries without help once inserted.

        • Re:Space Surgery? (Score:3, Insightful)

          by m50d ( 797211 )
          True not taking a doctor with you would leave more room for others, but would you really go on an 18 month journey without a doctor? Why not take the surgeon along who has can not only heal but deal with other biological studies.(Plants, human behavior, etc)

          With the amount it's costing and so forth, I'd want the very best scientists going along. As long as they're able to get there, all else is secondary. And as another reply said, a surgeon who isn't a specialist in your area, which is the best we can usu

          • With the amount it's costing and so forth, I'd want the very best scientists going along. As long as they're able to get there, all else is secondary. And as another reply said, a surgeon who isn't a specialist in your area, which is the best we can usually hope for, will probably do better with these robots than without them.

            My take is that they'll send a doctor along for the very reason you site, namely that they're sending along the best in a very expensive manner. It'll be stupid to kill someone that

      • I'd have thought latency would be an issue at any distance from earth orbit, but I ain't read the article either, so maybe that's dealt with somehow. Anyway, I can see uses for such a thing on earth, as well as in orbit.
        • From the article, and the post. Delays in communication because of the distance to space would mean surgeons on earth would have tell astronauts what commands to give the robots

          Also, this device is also expected to be used in the battlefield, and I assume rescue operations and other remote circumstances. At $200 a robot, these are indeed sort of expensive (single use, often multiple robots per procedure) but not outrageous for certain uses.
      • So we need to be able to have them perform surgery in case of an emergency, and having a surgeon onboard would be one less valuable berth.

        Some MDs are also PhDs; they focus on research and development, and not just cutting. Depending on their research specialties, some are highly talented physicists and chemists.

        One would expect there to be significant cross-training of the entire Mars crew; a surgeon who went along would be expected to do useful work while he wasn't needed in his medical capacity (i.e

    • Re:Space Surgery? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by timeOday ( 582209 )
      I'm sure it will wind up primarily a battlefield technology. (The article does mention military applications). The inital focus on space just means the developers got their funding from NASA instead of DARPA, that's all.
    • It's nothing to do with Space Surgery(TM), and everything to do with outsourcing.

      After all, why would you hire the ludicrously expensive local surgeon when you can hire an equally-skilled Indian living in Bangalore (right next door to the Dell phone support center) to use these robots to work remotely.

      Soon, you'll be able to have your surgery done at WalMart, and the only people they have to pay directly are the anesthesiologist and maybe a couple of post-op nurses.

      Oh, and don't think that WalMart won

    • About the closest comparison to something on Earth would be the South Pole researchers, who are stuck there (particularly during the southern hemisphere's winter) w/out recourse to outside help. A little research drug (no pun intended) up a timeline [southpolestation.com] of events at the station. What's interesting from just a cursory review of it is the number of cases of apendicitis in the first few years of the station. There has also been at least one case [70south.com] of a torn knee tendon.

      So in the space arena, whether it's requir

      • I believe there was an incident a couple years ago where the South Pole DOCTOR needed surgury. Possibly to remove a cancerous tumor or something. So they were having someone not an MD perform surgury.

        • I couldn't find the article when I was writing my original post, but yeah, I remember the same thing-- eventually (if I remember correctly) she ended up performing surgery on herself. I dunno, even in a life or death situation I doubt I could do the same... kudos to someone like her, who took human experience to the edge of the envelope & pushed just a little harder.

  • OK, but (Score:5, Insightful)

    by $RANDOMLUSER ( 804576 ) on Saturday October 29, 2005 @05:46PM (#13906491)
    I think I'll get excited about this when they start using it locally as a superior technology to regular surgery. I mean, if this is such a great option, why aren't they using this as a replacement for an 8-inch incision?
    • This didn't strike me so much as a replacement for the 8-in incision, as a way of remotely performing emergency surgery. Wherever possible, I think the incisions are already being (have been) replaced with laproscopic techniques.

    • Re:OK, but (Score:5, Informative)

      by Anti_Climax ( 447121 ) on Saturday October 29, 2005 @06:07PM (#13906568)
      They already do. [mos.org]

      The best part is that the controls can scale large movements down to very fine ones allowing procedures that aren't possible by hand, as well as filtering out normal muscle tremors. Though I'm with you, I'd like to see it used more often.
    • I mean, if this is such a great option, why aren't they using this as a replacement for an 8-inch incision?

      I bet it won't be long before they use it as a replacement for the 6-figure surgeon. Let the medical outsourcing begin!

      • I would be very happy if this thing could replace surgeons, for several reasons:
        • It'll only do so if it's better than what a surgeon could do.
        • If it's cheaper (which is far from guaranteed) so much the better.
        • It'll free up doctors to do other tasks, which is important given the doctor shortage (albeit one largely created by the doctors trade unions artificially restricting the amount of training places available).
        • I don't think you understood what I was suggesting. I think eventually surgeries will be performed by doctors but they will be doctors in third world countries where they work for the equivalent of a few dollars an hour. It will be the end of one more high paying profession in the US and contribute toward the slow decline of our economy. I fully expect to someday meet a former medical doctor working at Wal-mart as a greeter, and like all Wal-mart employees he will do his shopping at Wal-mart because that is

          • It will be the end of one more high paying profession in the US and contribute toward the slow decline of our economy. I fully expect to someday meet a former medical doctor working at Wal-mart as a greeter, and like all Wal-mart employees he will do his shopping at Wal-mart because that is all he can afford.

            Hahahahhahahahahahahahahahhahahahah. That's funny. Ooo wait. Your serious. That's not funny thats scary. If you actually delved a bit deeper into robotics technology you would discover that this wou

            • No not totally serious. The second sentence you quoted was meant as droll humor. I disagree that robotic surgery will always need surgeons physically present. I would bet that within two decades a typical surgery will be performed by a team of low paid surgical specialists in the developing world with only a couple of emergency medical technicians actually standing with the patient. And those technicians will feel lucky they have their jobs because they make four dollars an hour more than the greeter over a

              • The second sentence you quoted was meant as droll humor. I disagree that robotic surgery will always need surgeons physically present. I would bet that within two decades a typical surgery will be performed by a team of low paid surgical specialists in the developing world with only a couple of emergency medical technicians actually standing with the patient. And those technicians will feel lucky they have their jobs because they make four dollars an hour more than the greeter over at Wal-mart.

                They always

                • They always will.

                  I doubt it. Computing and Robotics will be so reliable in twenty years that the cost of having a surgeon physically standing by for every operation will likely be considered wasteful. Technicians can stablilize a patient in the (very) unlikely event that a communications/power/robotic system goes down as well as all redundant backups of that system. Then repairs take place or a qualified surgeon travels from somewhere else.

                  EMT's do not have the knowledge to save a person if a procedure

  • Remember HAL-9000? (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 29, 2005 @05:50PM (#13906503)
    The minute you go under the anesthesia, it's over.

  • Solving tomorrow's problems today. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Isldeur ( 125133 ) on Saturday October 29, 2005 @05:51PM (#13906504)
    Robots might allow for delicate surgeries in space,

    Rrright. I'm glad we're solving *tomorrow's* problems today. Shouldn't we first actually get a space program?

    • I would much prefer these problems solved before we go. I'd hate to be on a trip to mars, and die on the way because nobody knows how to do some surgery that I unexpectedly need. I want all bases covered, with enough redundancy that if something goes wrong it isn't fatal.

      Remember Apollo 13? Something like that could not be recovered from on the way to mars, so they have to have other way to recover. There are plenty of other disasters that could happen that need to be planed for. (with enough suppl

    • At first, I was thinking the same sort of thing. It would be nice to have that as a problem. However, there is a rosy side to this. It really is surprising how much teleoperations hasn't advanced in the past bunch of decades. If this sort of project finally gets usuable teleoperation equipment and other remotely guided robotics into the hands of industry, then maybe we are getting somewhere.

  • latency (Score:5, Interesting)

    by frankmu ( 68782 ) on Saturday October 29, 2005 @05:52PM (#13906508) Homepage
    man, as a surgeon, i would really hate the ping time. you can bleed alot from an arterial bleed.
        also, low gravity surgery would require new techical skills. we actually depend on gravity to keep bowel from floating around and obscuring our view. what do bleeders look like in low-gravity? for the mars mission, will people just have their gallbladder, appendix and uterus out before the trip?
    • Quite honestly, if there was a high ping time to the robot, I would hate more as the patient than the surgeon. As far as a Mars trip, nothing will have to be removed if you have somthing like this or you have a surgeon/medic on board.
      • huh? even if you have one the original poster said why it won't solve the problem: surgery on zero-g is much more difficult and more importantly no knowledge from experience of what to do/what can go wrong/etc. Not to mention that you have a surgeon who hasn't done surgery in a while, may not have ever done the surgery you need done and whose experience is limited to earth gravity.

        Of course then you have the lack of a medical team, "nurses" with little experience, lack of the optimal equipment, and probably
    • From the other side of the drapes, I would find doing anesthesia in space... challenging, to say the least. IV fluids would have to be under pressure bags at all times. Airway secretions could not be counted on to pool in dependent areas. Aspiration would become a much larger risk. Who knows what else we would find out?

      I agree with your conclusion - I would have the GB and appy out prophylactically before I set off on such a mission.

    • All of the zero gravity problems can be easily solved with artificial gravity. A spinning chamber can use centrifugal force to simulate gravity. Basically, the floor of the room is the outside edge of the spin, drawing everything towards the floor.

  • Rama II (Score:2, Interesting)

    by aitikin ( 909209 )
    Am I the only one whose first thought upon reading this headline was Rama II where an appendicitis is performed?

  • Lipstick (Score:4, Funny)

    by Phroggy ( 441 ) * <slashdot3@NOsPaM.phroggy.com> on Saturday October 29, 2005 @06:06PM (#13906558) Homepage
    The tiny, wheeled robots, which are about 3 inches tall and as wide as a lipstick case,...

    Oh come on, Slashdotters are supposed to know how big a lipstick case is? ;-)
  • "Louey isn't with us anymore..."

    Say what you want about the eco-hippie theme, that movie had some nice AI concepts.

  • ...from the terrible secret of space!
  • What are their demands? I say we give them whatever they want.
  • Surgeon on Earth - "Damn lag!"
  • Last time when Lockheed Martin engineers were overwhelmed by the complexity of the metric system it did cost NASA a Mars probe. I hope next time when someone doctors with 3 "inches" robots it won't cost a life. Not that I expect the Washington Post to accomplish what 95% of the world has done, but I sure hope NASA does.

  • Delay? (Score:2, Redundant)

    by nacturation ( 646836 )
    Delays in communication because of the distance to space would mean surgeons on earth would have tell astronauts what commands to give the robots

    And issuing the command to a human who then has to issue the command to a robot will somehow introduce less delay than the surgeon issuing the command directly?
     
  • can be slipped into small incisions "I think you're bugged." Agent Smith would *love* this idea.

  • Ob. Trek (Score:4, Funny)

    by (negative video) ( 792072 ) <.moc.ocax-ocet. .ta. .em.> on Saturday October 29, 2005 @07:24PM (#13906807)
    Dammit Jim, I'm a doctor, not a robot driver!
  • I for one, welcome my space robot surgeon overlords!

    Yea, the actual title of the article is poorly written: "Robots May Allow Surgery in Space"
  • how is this thing supposed to stop bleeding? How will it suck out the excess blood? What happens when blood and other fluids get all over the camera lens? Will it come with optional wipers installed? What will it be able to do at all inside a body with those 3 claws? I can't see how it will saw pieces together or how it can do anything except for clamping. And this robot will cost 200 bucks only? I say hogwash. Don't believe in this at all.

  • Inverted Priorities (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Minna Kirai ( 624281 ) on Saturday October 29, 2005 @09:46PM (#13907200)
    This is SO pointless. Remote-controlled robots to perform surgey in space, on the slight chance that an astronaut has an unforseen urgent emergency? Why not just build robots to do the astronauts' jobs via remote-control, and skip this trickiness?

    Consider the relative difficulty of invasive surgery in comparison to installing a PCI card or changing the lubricant in an automobile. Repair work on a machine (which can have been intentionally designed for easy servicing) is incomprably simpler than trying to heal a live human by cutting her up.

    The differences are magnified at orbital or interplanetary distances, were telecommunications lag comes into play. Even a few seconds delay between commands could have a human patient bleeding to death, but machines can be powered down before maintenance, meaning NASA can easily take 60 minutes to direct each individual step (and then wait the same time to get images of the result).

    Once we've got robots that can reliably fix a flat-tire by transcontinental remote-control, then we can start to think about robosurgery. Walk before you can run; solder before you can suture.

    (Furthermore, if something goes wrong, a dead astronaut killed by a misaligned surgeon-bot is more expensive than a satellite disabled by a mechanic-bot, once all the costs from negative publicity have been factored in)
  • I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned the possibility of one of these things being left inside after a surgery. If doctors can miss an eight inch or larger retractor when closing up a patient, what is stopping them from missing one of the few little robots with which they are doing remote surgery?

    Granted, the interface would probably have each robot indicated as to status (in body or out) and it might not be an issue, but there's always the possibility of sensor or total failure.

    Also, if one were left ins

  • Bad robot (Score:2, Funny)

    by Gogogoch ( 663730 )
    Hear about the lagging space-based circumcision robot? It screwed up and got the sack.

    "got the sack" [wikipedia.org] Brit slang
  • This autosurgeon can already do the same thing without any human instructions.

    http://agdb.net.ru/images/system_shock_1.jpg [agdb.net.ru]

  • The astronauts can ask Tony Curtis if he could donate one of his ME DI BOTs [bbc.co.uk].

  • Don't get me wrong: I work in spaceresearch at the moment. But this is ridiculous. We've got tens of thousands of people right here on *earth* in need of surgeons every day.

    Couldn't this tech be used in places like Pakistan [google.com], like, tomorrow?

  • So surgeons are going to talk to astronauts who are trained to operate robots who perform surgery?

    Wouldn't it be easier to just train the astronauts to perform surgery themselves? Saves you the cost of developing the robot. Is there any reason to suspect that guiding a surgeon robot will require less skill than doing the cutting by hand?

    Sounds to me like someone desperately trying to justify NASA funding for a worthwhile research project that doesn't have anything at all to do with the space program. (No

    • Wouldn't it be easier to just train the astronauts to perform surgery themselves? Saves you the cost of developing the robot. Is there any reason to suspect that guiding a surgeon robot will require less skill than doing the cutting by hand?

      Robots can filter out extraneous signals like a shaking hand which is extremely useful for surgeons whose hands shake. Im pretty sure that this will account for major whoops moments that someone who isn't a surgeon will experience. Also, another advantage to robotic su

  • I'm a microsurgeon, and have spent thousands of dollars and almost a year practicing. I can finally use my talents for profit. I went to Konami University in the 80's and... oh wait, that was Life Force (salamander). NM.

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