Quantum Information Can be Negative 445
nerdlygirl writes "In a development that would probably even puzzle Claude Shannon,
information can be negative -- at least when the information is quantum.
The discovery, by
Horodecki, Oppenheim, and Winter, appears in the
current edition of the leading journal Nature.
If I tell you negative information, you'll know less. Apparently, researchers hope to use this to gain deeper insights into phenomena such as quantum teleportation and computation, as well as the very structure of the quantum world. More details can be found here and
here
A popular account of the article can be found on Oppenheim's
homepage, and a free version of the article can be found in the arxiv for those of us
without subscriptions to Nature."
This is not news (Score:3, Funny)
Re:This is not news (Score:3, Informative)
Re:This is not news (Score:2, Funny)
Re:This is not news (Score:3, Informative)
I think another example would be religions.
Or the classic Billy Madison line "we are all now stupider for having listened to that" (not sure if I phrased that exactly but it's very close to that).
But you can look at pretty much anything in society and see this being used all the time. Look at how many people think things like Universal Health Care is bad, Schools need local control, taxes are always bad, paying off national debt
Re:This is not news (Score:3, Funny)
2. "researchers hope to use this to gain deeper insights"
Hmmm..... I always knew quantum physics was full of contradictions, but putting those two lines together really did make me laugh.
nope (Score:3, Funny)
Yes it can (Score:3, Informative)
The concept of a "quantum eraser" is not a new one. Consider the classic double-slit experiment, where electrons are shot at a double slit and form an interference pattern on a screen which corresponds to the probability distribution of the particle's position. If you were to place detectors so that you knew which slit the particle went through, the interference pattern would disappear-- that is, there would be no uncertainty in the position (because obviously, you know which slit
Re:Yes it can (Score:2)
Re:Yes it can (Score:2, Insightful)
You clearly know nothing about quantum mechanics. The slit is not a detector because, put simply, it does not detect anything. The whole point of the double slit experiment was to show that if there are two
Re:Yes it can (Score:2)
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,1130877,00.as p [pcmag.com]
http://www.bbn.com/For_Government_Customers/Networ king/Quantum_Cryptography.html [bbn.com]
Re:Yes it can (Score:2)
Politics aside, you keep using the word "detector", I don't think it means what you think it means.
They're talking about things like photomultiplies, etc. A slit is not a photo multiplier, it is the hole in the article that gives the photon a path to the photomultiplier located further along in the experiment. Usually, photomultipliers are placed where one suspects light will come out. However, light gets rea
Re:Yes it can (Score:3, Informative)
1) The experiment works with photons or electrons. The latter is more related to the experiment's most recent significance (re: the implications for quantum mechanics).
> The paradox can be very simply explained to the lay person.
2) Your ability to be trusted as an authority died per point 1), and the carcass is beaten by your subsequent ramblings.
> It turned out that if one tested for particles, one got results
> consistent with particl
Re:Yes it can (Score:3, Funny)
It has already been proven that the moon is made of cheese [google.com].
Re:nope (Score:2)
Although, this just goes to prove the point I always made when I was sitting through mind numbingly boring lectures given by stupid people in the past... "i feel dumber for having sat through that". Now I knot that I wasn't just imagining it!
Finally, a matter I can speak on with authority... (Score:5, Funny)
Initially, I believed that negative information was an abstract math concept, but after a significant amount of additional study I've determined rather conclusively that it exists in our frame of reference and that the effects are actually easy to detect. The trick is to *locate* some of this negative information. Fortunately, I've managed to work that out as well -- I'm not publishing for a few months yet, but I figure I'm far enough along to spill some of the beans:
Experiencing negative inforamtion is all about occupying a point in space and time which intersects with the negative information stream. This was initially tricky, but through months of tireless research I've worked out the optimal conditions: I find that your best chance of encountering it is roughly around 1 AM when you're at the bar with your friends after a long night of drinking and one of them says something along the lines of, "Awright! Time for some shots!"
Bang! Negative information. What happened after that? How did I get home? All lost in the quantum flow, never to be accurately described by anyone involved (except, occasionally and for reasons I still haven't managed to factor into my equations, the bouncer and the police). I assume the headaches and liver damage are just a nominal side effect.
Best place for negative information (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Best place for negative information (Score:3, Insightful)
MSWord & Storing Negative Information & An (Score:4, Funny)
It seems that virtual particles of antimatter and exotic particles of normal matter that spontaneously emerge from the void, and then disappear without interacting with anything. [1] The theoretical potential of tapping this particle flux has brought vacuum energy to the fore of research by the NSA into Quantum Information Theory.
Experiments conducted by the NSA and the DOE on large data samples gathered in large bureaucracies (both public and private) indicate that Microsoft Word Documents are effective containers for Negative Information, which hitherto had been considered a transient phenomenon, almost impossible to store given our current understanding of physics. The phenomenon of massive amounts of stored negative informisinformation, as it turns out, makes the typical corporate or government intranet much more resiliant to cyber terrorist attack than previously predicted -- nearly as resiliant as the typical government organization to a FOIA request today, for comparison.
It is expected that once we understand the characteristics of MS Word Documents which allow them to efficiently store negative information in a stable form, Quantum Physicists and Information Theorists should be able to get together, perhaps over a nice hot cup of tea, and stitch the two branches together, getting us one step closer to faster than light travel, finally bringing the stars within reach -- except it won't really be FTL, it will be something that we don't presently understand. [2]
Only the humor-impaired need read this bootnote.
[1]Yes, I see the grammar error. I've intentionally borrowed a pattern, common in conspiracy theory writing, of constructing a complex sentence, perhaps full of objects, perhaps full of verbs, perhaps full of nouns, on the theory that it might amuse, whereas it normally serves to confuse, as sometimes subjects or verbs may go missing. Oops I did it again! Or did I?
[2]Yes, I realize I mention antimatter only in the title, and not in the text.
[3]Yes, I realize there are 3 bootnotes, not a single bootnote as referenced above.
[4]Yes, I realize that only 2 of the bootnotes are indicated by reference numbers in the text. (Absurd bootnotes are also common in conspiracy theorist writings.)
PowerPoint & Storing Negative Information (Score:3, Insightful)
I already knew this (Score:3, Funny)
when you asked me to take the trash out (Score:4, Funny)
True (Score:5, Funny)
Negative Information (Score:2, Funny)
What next, negative intelligence? (Score:2, Funny)
When I was in high school (Score:5, Funny)
Of course negative information is cool, but it would be even cooler if you could combine negative information and positive information to produce a huge explosion.
Re:When I was in high school (Score:5, Funny)
Maybe things have changed in the last 10 years, but back when I was in high school we called these people "girls".
Re:When I was in high school (Score:5, Funny)
Actually, proximity to girls caused higher brain functions to be transferred to an area just below the waist. You could still technically think, but it was limited in scope.
Re:When I was in high school (Score:4, Funny)
Muggles.
Re:When I was in high school (Score:4, Funny)
Re:When I was in high school (Score:2)
Well lets see - what you are experiencing is a large quantum bogodynamic field being emitted from various people. Probably in the order of several microLenat's [watson-net.com]
(-2)+(-3)=+1 (Score:2, Funny)
So, if two people tell me negative information, I'll know more?
Re:(-2)+(-3)=+1 (Score:5, Funny)
I think you've hit the lower limit already....
Re:(-2)+(-3)=+1 (Score:5, Funny)
You have obviously received a lot of negative information before you started writing this 'math'.
Re:(-2)+(-3)=+1 (Score:2)
Either that or he is working in the modular arithmetic group of order 6.
But that isn't even a field, so I don't know why he'd be doing that.
Of course (Score:2, Funny)
Re:(-2)+(-3)=+1 (Score:5, Funny)
Depends on what you're doing. (-2)+(-3)=+1 is Slashdot Moderator Math, which has no basis in either reality or fantasy and transmits no useful information whatsoever.
It's a miracle .. (Score:2, Flamebait)
Re:(-2)+(-3)=+1 (Score:2)
if and only if
2+2=5
Re:(-2)+(-3)=+1 (Score:2)
(-2)(-3) = 6
(-2) + (-3) = -5
Re:(-2)+(-3)=+1 (Score:3, Informative)
(-2) - (-3) = 1
That's Intuitive (Score:2, Funny)
I experience this almost everytime I speak to my boss.
Nothing new here... (Score:2)
This is nothing new, the effect is known as 'the dumbening.' It can be easily reproduced in the home by watching Harold & Kumar go to White Castle. Watch that movie, and I guarantee you'll know less!
Affects black holes! (Score:5, Interesting)
Since a black hole's entropy is directly proportional to it's information content, this, if true, would have an effect on black holes.
If I recall correctly (and I may not -- my physics isn't what it used to be), the amount of information contained by a black hole is directly proportional to its surface area -- specifically, I believe that the total number of bits contained is equal to 1/4 of its surface area as measured in Planck units.
Now, if information can be negative, that would provide another method of shrinking a black hole, in addition to Hawking radiation.
Re:Affects black holes! (Score:2)
I didn't cover black holes in much detail, but that certianly makes sense - the surface area of a black hole would be proportional to its mass, which in turn is a function of the amount of mass it's captured, and mass capture would be the way that it captured information. (Where for the purposes of this discussion (and most discussions of this sort
Re:Affects black holes! (Score:3, Informative)
Um... (Score:2)
So less really is more?
Don't click on the 5th link! (Score:2)
Bad Analogy (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't think that really works. You can't make someone know less by just telling them something, unless by doing so you somehow alter their brain chemistry to store less information or remove information already stored. I suspect this might be closer to the quantum idea.
Suppose you have two pieces of quantum information, one positive and one negative. The negative piece could negate the positive one which would result in 0 total pieces of information instead of 2.
However, the idea of this negative information is still kind of abstract and not that easy to understand. The quantum nature of this is key I think. It doesn't look like it extends that well to our concept of information (which would be the kind stored by the brain), at least not yet.
Re:Bad Analogy (Score:2)
If the partial information is positive, its sender needs to communicate this number of quantum bits to the receiver; if it is negative, the sender and receiver instead gain the corresponding potential for future quantum communication.
At risk of oversimplifying, negative information is information that is not known, but soon will be. It's not unlike what we would think of as a prediction, or more accurately, a premonition.
Re:Bad Analogy (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Bad Analogy (Score:2)
I know 1+1=2, what if someone convinced me 1+1 infact made 3? Surely I would know less information no?
You don't know less (Score:2)
Re:Bad Analogy (Score:2)
Except you also now know that you were incorrect with your initial thought. So adding negative information in that regard increases your total information.
Re:Bad Analogy (Score:3, Interesting)
Let's say there exists a person, Alfred, who is a psychic. Nobody knows he is a psychic (except perhaps himself), but he is. He is approached by Bill, who has Â$55 in his wallet. Alfred senses the $55. There is now information in the system that "Alfred is a psychic" because if he tells Bill about the $55 without Bill showing them to h
Only fooling themselves (Score:2, Funny)
Taking into consideration the sentence before that, it seems like the hope of those researchers is unfounded... Irony.
Old philosophy, revisited... (Score:3, Funny)
That explains it! (Score:2, Funny)
So, American television programming has been giving us negative information
for decades now....
Oh, man! I wonder how many /.-ers will get this :) (Score:2, Insightful)
So first off you need an understanding of QM (it's statistical information, so screw the Kopenhagen interpretation
Or is that just the wave function? (Score:2)
At least one (Score:4, Informative)
I have to say I'm not especially impressed by the work, however. The frisson of defining information as negative emerges ultimately from a semi-deliberate muddling of the distinction between the definition of information in the quantum computing context and information as we use the word in daily life. This is not hard useful scientific discovery so much as the scientific equivalent of making an outrageous pun.
But then I feel similarly about most of what's published in the Bell's Inequality, EPR paradox, quantum tele-whatever field. Getting cynical myself, maybe I am....bah, humbug...grumble...
Re:At least one (Score:3, Insightful)
This is pretty much my reaction, and I have a similar background.
It has been known for a long time that quantum information can be negative. But no one has known how to interpret it. These guys are giving one possible interpretation out of the infinitely many possible ones. It is a good interpretation as it has some operational significance, but I've always found interpretive papers to be less than satisfying as science (which is why I've never published one, despite having some interesting ones.)
They ar
Re:At least one (Score:3, Informative)
Quantum information is not a question of interpretation -- it is well known what it is, in terms of communication theory. What these guys did, is prove how much communication was required to send information, if the receiv
you'll know less (Score:2, Funny)
I get it now... (Score:2)
Not new (Score:2)
That, plus any other saying that makes the listener dumber.
This explains the Creationist/ID movement (Score:4, Funny)
As information regarding the field of biology -- specifically in the study of evolution -- increases, a balance must be made. As a result, the increase of information in biology causes a reaction of an equal increase of negative information with respect to the creationist movement. The more biologists figure out and the more knowledgable experts become, the dumber and more gullible the general populace must become to balance the information flow out.
Re:This explains the Creationist/ID movement (Score:2, Insightful)
(I also appologize for my apparent over-use of conjunctions today :P)
Re:This explains the Creationist/ID movement (Score:3, Funny)
Lao Tzu figured this out millenia ago (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Lao Tzu figured this out millenia ago (Score:3, Funny)
1)Don't RTFA
2)???
3)Enlightenment!
KFG
Re:Lao Tzu figured this out millenia ago (Score:2)
This explains SCO's press releases (Score:2)
Quantum mechanics is already well known as... (Score:2)
So.. (Score:2)
I haven't RTFA (yet) but this seems one of them "If we saw invisible people would we even know?" type questions..
sounds like... (Score:2)
24 Hour News (Score:2)
Anyone who watches any of the 24 hour cable news networks should know this by now. Well, they probably don't because I'm guessing it's hard to observe information loss...because you won't remember it. This is probably redundant by this point thought, huh?
Math (Score:3, Insightful)
Conservation of Information (Score:2)
Simply put they bring in the best and brightest students, hire professors to send these students negative information in their lectures and writings, and thus the university gains information.
Keep this up for a couple of hundred years and it is quite obvious how top universities become famous as such great centers of learning.
I think Feynman thought of this first (Score:5, Informative)
Feynman presented it as just a different way of having quantum interference, from negative probability instead of complex amplitudes.
Re:I think Feynman thought of this first (Score:3, Interesting)
Two things. First, can we observe negative information? Sounds to me li
Re:I think Feynman thought of this first (Score:3, Informative)
What do you mean by observe? If you mean, what is the information of the things we see, then what you say sounds right. Because classical information is positive always. If you mean, can we tell that the information is negative, then it seems we can -- the authors show
From one of TFA... (Score:2)
It looks like the author's already experimenting with negative information...
Welcome... (Score:2)
Quantum devices in all living room (Score:2)
So negative information... (Score:2)
Re:So negative information... (Score:2)
Escort Web Pages (Score:3, Interesting)
That's not really how you use that word. His spell checker must have provided negative information.
Antibrain Matters (Score:2)
Have I told you about Lavinsky's theory of the antibrain? Stop me if you've heard
Are you positive? (Score:2)
The application is obvious (Score:2)
To erase data on a Quantum storage device, you only need an electromagnet or a hammer.
Ugh, not again (Score:2)
It's your stock of entangled particles (Score:5, Informative)
Now think about it as if someone else controlled the book. They can tell you things over the phone, and they can cause answers to pop out of the book. If they waste the book on something you actually already knew, your total information goes down, so the information in the transaction is negative.
Mod Parent +Insightful (Score:2)
Nicely explained. Thanks.
-kgj
I think I have this figured out... (Score:3, Informative)
In order to learn something, you have to make a measurement. Of course, in the quantum world, measuring a system will change it, so you are giving up what you know by measuring. It seems that in negative information situations, you are giving up your certainty in order to measure something, but your aren't learning anything in return. So your net 'gain' of information is negative.
But it doesn't work at absolutes (Score:4, Funny)
Clarify? (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Clarify? (Score:2)
Re:Implication on Information Theory and Probabili (Score:2)
Re:Ouch! (Score:2, Interesting)
The phone digit analogy used in
Re:I wonder... (Score:5, Insightful)