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t/Space Demonstrates New Air-Launch Method 117
FleaPlus writes "Last month t/Space, an organization with plans for constructing a simple, low-cost successor to the Space Shuttle, was mentioned on Slashdot. Recently t/Space used a portion of the concept study funds it had been awarded by NASA to also build and test actual hardware. They performed three weeks of drop tests of a 23%-scale model from a Scaled Composites Proteus carrier aircraft to demonstrate the feasibility of a new air launch method they had devised, dubbed 'Trapeze-Lanyard Air Drop.' The new method eliminates the need for wings on air-launched rockets, potentially leading to improved safety and cost-effectiveness. Last month at a space conference they also displayed a full-scale model of their vehicle. Unfortunately, with the recent selection of Boeing/Northrop-Grumman and Lockheed-Martin as the two competing teams for the contract to build the Shuttle's successor, t/Space's future path is somewhat uncertain."
'Trapeze-Lanyard Air Drop.' (Score:5, Funny)
Re:'Trapeze-Lanyard Air Drop.' (Score:5, Informative)
Not that it's not an interesting deployment concept, mind you. There are lots of interesting airbreathing assisted methods, although none of them scale up to very large orbital craft. In addition to this and standard belly-dropped rockets, there's also wing-dropped (doesn't usually need a custom aircraft, but is geometrically constrained and offbalances the craft), roof-launched (the whole "tail" thing tends to get in the way unless you have a custom craft, but you can handle almost any geometry), tow-launch (you pay a penalty in carrying heavy landing gear, but the modifications to the towing craft are minimal), unfuelled tow launch (you fuel midair from lines attached to the craft at liftoff), docking and fuelling (taking off with just enough fuel to get to altitude - allows for multiple reentries and possibly powered landing), and carrying the craft inside the carrier, launching with a drogue chute (very geometrically constraining, but almost no modifications to the carrier needed).
The problem with scaling up is that airplanes get tougher to scale up beyond a point. It's really only realistic for small satellites and humans to LEO.
Re:'Trapeze-Lanyard Air Drop.' (Score:1)
I seem to recall reading some speculation that a spacefareing race would evolve to be smaller.
Re:'Trapeze-Lanyard Air Drop.' (Score:1)
No. I didn't think my phrasing was hard to understand, but let me rephrase:
It's really only realistic for humans and small satellites to LEO
A craft carrying, say, three people will have only, perhaps, 300kg of human cargo (plus life support, backup systems, supplies, etc). Many satellites are even smaller than the human portion of the mass alone. Large satellites, probes, and modules for things like ISS, however, are often measured in metric tonnes and are physically quite large.
Re:'Trapeze-Lanyard Air Drop.' (Score:1)
Re:'Trapeze-Lanyard Air Drop.' (Score:3, Informative)
The spacecraft does need some kind of landing gear, unless a disposable sled is used for takeoff. Consider a cart strapped to the vehicle and dropped at liftoff
But the real problem is that the spacecraft has to fly from the word go, and (unless we assume your next option) needs to do so fully fuled.
This works surprisingly well for sailplanes but spacraft have the opposite problem. They are
Re:'Trapeze-Lanyard Air Drop.' (Score:2)
Re:'Trapeze-Lanyard Air Drop.' (Score:2)
Re:'Trapeze-Lanyard Air Drop.' (Score:1)
And a net in LEO to catch the humans.
scaleing (Score:2)
I don't know about manned but for sats it may be the way to go.
Re:scaling (Score:1)
The downside is, now you are launching from a moving platform. And the savings, while there are some, arent **that** great... IE, you aren't going to b
How about an unmodified C5A? (Score:2)
Small disposable drogue goes first to make sure payload points the right way throughout (would be the world's most expensive air-air missile if it destabilised and happened to point the wrong way when it went whoosh), slide out back end, (roll and?) send C5A into negative gees to miss the payload, light blue touch-paper, home time.
Hmm. The 56.7t load was over 8000km... (Score:2)
Re:'Trapeze-Lanyard Air Drop.' (Score:2)
Re:'Trapeze-Lanyard Air Drop.' (Score:2)
Re:'Trapeze-Lanyard Air Drop.' (Score:1)
Famous last words: "Hey, guys, watch what I can do!"
Re:'Trapeze-Lanyard Air Drop.' (Score:2)
"Hold my beer..."
Down with combustion! (Score:3, Insightful)
Elecromagnetism? Superheated water / water reclamation?
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http://www.nasa.gov/centers/marshall/news/backgro
Oops wrong link.. check this... (Score:4, Informative)
http://www.eng.titech.ac.jp/jyosei/t_yabe.pdf [titech.ac.jp]
That is more along the lines of what I meant!
Re:Oops wrong link.. check this... (Score:2)
Myrabo (Score:3, Interesting)
You are right that huge savings can be had by separating the power source from the vehicle - Myrabo was writing about this 20 years ago. Most of the energy used by a rocket is used to elevate the fuel to the altitude at which it is burned. If the energy is supplied to energize a propellant (such as vaporized water as s
Re:Down with combustion! (Score:1)
Fossil fuels are the cheapest way to go. If they weren't, we'd be using electromagnetism to fling ships into space (but we dont).
Takes much less energy (Score:4, Informative)
The overwhelming majority of fuel used to launch spacecraft is spent accelerating the rest of the fuel. If you don't carry the fuel with you, it will take much less energy to reach orbit. Consider the European Union's Hopper [wikipedia.org] which will accelerate spacecraft on magnetic rails. They already have a prototype [wikipedia.org].
Re:Down with combustion! (Score:2)
We need to realize this, however, in order to try to develop that technology...
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Fossil fuels are cheapest because we've already got it, but it may be cheaper in the long run to research something else, not to mention there are speed limitations to combustion (which they try to work around by make the spacecraft lighter and lighter)
Re:Down with combustion! (Score:2)
However, the dynamic forces exerted upon the vehicle are MUCH different than if it was sitting on a solid concrete pad. Something for the computers to account for....
Uncertain future.. but not in space tourism.. (Score:4, Insightful)
Given the possible boom in space tourism, I dont see t/Space going out of business anytime, especially if they have a viable technology.
Re:Uncertain future.. but not in space tourism.. (Score:2)
Re:Uncertain future.. but not in space tourism.. (Score:3, Insightful)
More on topic, how about air travel in the 40's and 50's? Look at the cost and technology at the time, and compare it to modern jet technology. Sure, it started as an affluent method of travel for the "jet-setters", but now, anyone can travel by air from LA t
Re:Uncertain future.. but not in space tourism.. (Score:5, Interesting)
PCs kept dropping in price because simpler (and higher power) manufacturing techniques kept being developed - and there was a clear path layed out for the next decade at almost all times, with research laying clear foundations for the every-three-year doublings of the next several decades. Nothing even close to this exists for rocketry. The only major thing that can do an order-of-magnitude reduction in prices are huge materials leaps forward (we'll get incremental improvements, of course - there's some nice ones due soon).
How about air travel in the 40's and 50's?
Driven almost entirely by people who needed to travel, paying the equivalent of several thousand dollars per ticket (not several hundred thousand), and getting to a destination that they had a strong need to arrive at. Very little of it was "joy riding", even if travelling places by plane was somewhat of a status symbol.
Give commercial space travel it's start
Private industry developed almost everything NASA ever built. Private companies like SeaLaunch and Orbital successfully built their own privately funded rockets; there was no leap forward, just incremental improvements. Several dozen companies outrght failed. It's not a "private industry" thing; it's a "technology thing". And no, a rocket that goes a tiny fraction of orbital velocity isn't a step forward; it's a big leap backwards. If you're going to hawk a "private enterprise" technology with promise, you should be hawking SpaceX or whatnot. The "100km straight up and then down" companies are as close to real space travel as a person who makes a go-cart out of a lawnmower engine is to making a car to race in the Indy 500. Seriously. The ISPs are awful, the payload fractions are awful (because of the low ISP engines and high tank/structural masses), they don't deal with much TPS if any, etc. I.e., they don't deal with the real engineering problems of spaceflight, and thus aren't advancing anything. Cheer for those who are actually advancing technology.
And no, before you state it, let me head it off: they're not helping parts be "mass produced" and thus cheaper. The materials that they use are generally all wrong (far more in common with aircraft) and the low performance engine designs share little to nothing in common with real rocket engines, which are more like jet engines. And of course, since they don't need much of any TPS, they don't advance TPS research/costs (most of which are labor, anyways)
Re:Uncertain future.. but not in space tourism.. (Score:1)
What are these privately funded rockets of which you speak? I work with OSC on a regular basis and have evaluated SeaLaunch capabilities in an AF source selection and neither have "privately funded" development on their rockets. Perhaps you allude to Pegasus who's motors are derivative of the Minuteman upperstage motors. SeaLaunch uses derivatives of the Russian Zenit rocket. This of course
Re:Uncertain future.. but not in space tourism.. (Score:2)
I do. By the way, my home computer is an Athlon XP, which is a derivative of the Athlon, which is a derivative of the Pentium, which is a derivative of the 486... (etc). The fact remains that Pegasus was funded by private development dollars, and not a dime of government funding.
SeaLaunch uses derivatives
I think stopping that quote right there says it all. "Derivatives". I.e., changes to an extant system. Did th
Re:Uncertain future.. but not in space tourism.. (Score:1)
Re:Uncertain future.. but not in space tourism.. (Score:1)
Re:Uncertain future.. but not in space tourism.. (Score:2)
I can't think of the last time I, or anyone in my family, have needed to get into LEO.
In fact, after 50 years neither the Soviets nor NASA have been able to come up with a "Killer Application" for space. There are some nifty pure science items for sure, but nothing that is going to make Joe Sixpack want to be there or buy something from there.
You gotta think, nobody bothered with the Americas until there was money involved. Well, exc
Re:Uncertain future.. but not in space tourism.. (Score:2)
Re:Uncertain future.. but not in space tourism.. (Score:2)
And while technology has gotten better, there are now far fewer private aircraft in the Untited States. I suspect this has more to do with "safety" regulations and licensing requirements than with economics.
Truth is that aircraft and
Re:Uncertain future.. but not in space tourism.. (Score:2, Insightful)
What Rutan did was admirable, but it was really less than the soviets did 44 years ago,about equal to what the US did
Re:Uncertain future.. but not in space tourism.. (Score:1)
Re:Uncertain future.. but not in space tourism.. (Score:2)
Re:Uncertain future.. but not in space tourism.. (Score:2)
So can a freighter or container ship. Which do you think would be easier to get to America?
Re:Uncertain future.. but not in space tourism.. (Score:2)
Re:Uncertain future.. but not in space tourism.. (Score:2)
Nobody declares war any more. The first you hear about it is after you've been attacked.
You most certainly will not be stopping freight shipping. Wars are often fought to keep trade going. The US isn't going to blockade itself.
Ballistic weapoons are only useful against an opponent with no nukes of their own; or if you have an overwhelming first strike and are confident of knocking out al
Re:Uncertain future.. but not in space tourism.. (Score:2)
Re:Uncertain future.. but not in space tourism.. (Score:2)
Re:Uncertain future.. but not in space tourism.. (Score:2)
The US is at war now. Is it blockading ports?
Re:Uncertain future.. but not in space tourism.. (Score:2)
Re:Uncertain future.. but not in space tourism.. (Score:2)
Wasn't the threat of that used as the justification for the war?
No future ? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:No future ? (Score:2)
Re:No future ? (Score:1)
Only in the US. If they want to live in the dark ages, the rest of the world is happy to let them.
Remember, we (rest of world) will at that stage have a cheap, reliable nuke delivery system. Not wise to be making threats.
Exactly (Score:2)
The question is: was that 23% the size or 23% scale model, because those are two vastly different volumes.
And the corollary question is: was it an empty shell? or did it have the same mass distribution that the rocket will have?
Re:No future ? (Score:2)
Although... (Score:5, Interesting)
Also, Griffin has made it quite clear that he wouldnt probablly fund t/space, BUT if they do get a vehicle built and it is cheap, he will gladly use it for crew and cargo transfers to the ISS.
Re:Although... (Score:2)
Re:Although... (Score:2)
NASA is planning on spending around 400-500million over the next 4 years for cargo transportation capabilities for the ISS... Guess how much the t/space guys need to build their whole system? Thats right, 400million.
Starcraft? (Score:1, Funny)
Re:Starcraft? (Score:1)
Funny thing is, now that I think about it, just about all of Burt Rutan's designs [scaled.com] actually end up looking like Protoss aircraft.
Mmm war (Score:1)
Re:Mmm war (Score:3, Funny)
Which is why the dark part of me WISHES for a war with China, in SPACE!!
Of course its just a foolish thought, but wouldnt it be awesome, I mean after all the death and destruction, just think of all the new technological advancements that would come! Heck, even a Cold War would be good. Very few die, and we still get the good tech!!!
Re:Mmm war (Score:1)
Re:Mmm war (Score:2)
Re:Mmm war (Score:1)
Re:Mmm war (Score:2)
Re:Mmm war (Score:1)
Missiles (Score:2)
Re:Missiles (Score:3, Informative)
Yes, there are ballistics involved, but Missile technology is a helluva a lot more complicated because you are accellerating a mass that is constantly shrinking through an atmosphere that is constantly thinning to a speed that is so fast that the "bullet" enters a state of perpetually falling.
New branches of mathematics and numerical analysis have been fleshed out just to describe the problem properly. You know all those Differential equations you High School math teacher told you were impossibl
loo training?? (Score:1)
What you saw was a weather balloon! (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:What you saw was a weather balloon! (Score:4, Informative)
That's pretty much what JP Aerospace [jpaerospace.com] is doing, "airship to orbit." RLV News has some additional info and news items [hobbyspace.com] on them.
rockoons (Score:4, Interesting)
I think you're thinking of these. They do work, it's just that you have to deal with the time and danger involved with a baloon ride before firing the rocket, while going up in a powered aircraft like a plane gives you more control.
A blimp like thing (lighter than air, powered and with a lifting body profile) that might be nice. That's a whole nother aerospace engineering project in itself.
Re:rockoons (Score:2)
I poked around the research papers and it doesn't look like anyone's launched any serious rockoons since the first 1957-60 experiments by Van Allen. I guess baloons don't have enough Right Stuff compared to piloted aircraft and air-launch platforms.
Re:What you saw was a weather balloon! (Score:5, Insightful)
It turns out that it only takes about 5% of the fuel (or less) to get to the altitude that a typical airship flies - and that a reasonable size payload requires an airship twice the size of the Hindenburg to carry it. Given that a) fuel costs are down in the noise and b) the (extremely fragile) airship costs hundreds to thousands of times more than is saved in the costs of tankage - it suddenly seems like a much less nifty idea.
Anyhow, the main problem in getting to orbit isn't about altitude, it's about speed.
Re:What you saw was a weather balloon! (Score:2)
Re:What you saw was a weather balloon! (Score:3, Informative)
But reducing fuel mass by 5% allows you to increase your payload mass by at least a factor of two for many launch vehicles. I'm not sure balloon-launch is the way to go, because as you say speed is the issue, but rockets are so enormously inefficient that relatively small percentage savings
Re:What you saw was a weather balloon! (Score:2)
Another idea is to strap an ion engine to your blimp. In the high altitude you may actually be able to get to orb
Space elevators (Score:1)
article (Score:4, Interesting)
I think the contracts for cev were awarded to northrop/grumman and boeing for a 2 party competition. That is, the crew exploration vehicle which resides in space.
Though, nasa might fund them $400m for a alternate/creative role in the process. Who knows, now wouldn't be funny if they could pull it off with the limited funding? That would prod the bigger companies which would be good.
The beauty is if they can get rid of shuttle the savings will pay to get to the moon. The moon has its own resources which could be used to create launches/refueling from the moon and not earth.
Google Add (Score:4, Funny)
________________
Space Ship
Save on new and used items. Search for space ship now!
www.ebay.com
_________________
eh eh they think they have everything
Re:Google Add (Score:1)
Re:Google Add (Score:2)
Re:Google Add (Score:2)
Fixed.
Re:Google Add (Score:2)
(It might have been some similar word and not "slaves", but I think it was.)
Re:Google Add (Score:2)
The t/Space solution is clear... (Score:2)
All t/Space needs is to get a couple dozen congressmen in its pocket and boom! ...in like Flint.
Let's face it...the manned space program is a slush fund for well-connected defense contractors.
P.S. Did I mention the "word in image" thing still sucks donkey balls?
Re:The t/Space solution is clear... (Score:2)
Other Uses for Air Launch (Score:2, Informative)
That's baloney. The US military loves the air launch thing. Back in the '70s there was a pathfinder-type mission that air launched a Minuteman [siloworld.com]. And the MDA is heavily invested in air launched targets for the various interceptor programs. There was the LRALT [crc.com] program and a newer target [spaceref.com] launched
Re:Other Uses for Air Launch (Score:2, Insightful)
In the usual scenario, innovation gets purchased, but not without the Northrop-Grumman getting a big, no -giant-, chunk of the contract.
If you only had the slightest idea exactly how RFP's and RFQ's get written you would understand the powerball-lottery-like odds of the entrepreneur landing the big contract.
Don't B.S. me about company X or Y who did it either. They had to make a big deal with the bigger guy to be a small part of the pr
full scale (Score:2)
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=1661
wonder how hi proteus was when it dropped the capsule
not entirely new (Score:2)
23% scale model (Score:2, Funny)
Gary, Burt and a long way from here... (Score:3, Interesting)
Burt needs no introduction: he's da man. Burt builds the coolest planes in the world and has finally started building spaceships.
So, t/space has been doing droptests, excellent! They have a great capsule demo and seem to be trying to stretch their funding as far as possible. I'm pretty sure they said that the "CXV" was proposed specifically outside the CEV RFP, because they refuse to fill out that much extra paperwork. You can see what Mr. Hudson was working on in the early 00's here: http://hmx.com/ [hmx.com] The pdf is his proposal for a capsule (manned/cargo) for the old Alternative Access to Station program, gives a good idea of where the CXV's heritage is.
t/space is an amazing team. If they can keep the funding coming, they will deliver on this craft.
Josh
Re:Gary, Burt and a long way from here... (Score:2)
Re:Gary, Burt and a long way from here... (Score:2)
I am what you might call a space advocate. Space freak? Space geek! I'm for space development and colonies and all that. I just think that companies like t/space, SpaceDev, SpaceX etc are going to get us there while NASA spins their wheels.
Whore for the private spaceflight industry? Yes, please.
Josh
I would be far more impressed if... (Score:2)
Path is clear (Score:1)
I would think their path is clear: Get one of those other two to buy them!
t/Space's future - licensing (Score:2)
If the idea is that good, one or both of the contractors could license it from them. Could be very profitable for t/Space. Also likely: they get bought up by one of the big guys.
Paper with more details (Score:2)
http://transformspace.com/document_library/media/
Re:fuck space (Score:1, Troll)
OMG! It's 2am and I fell for a troll.
Re:No wings... (Score:2, Interesting)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifting_body [wikipedia.org]
I like the idea of not having these things strapped to the side that can break off, they always looked flimsy - maybe it'll save weight.
My! This armchair is comfy!
Re:nuclear launch vehicle (Score:2)
These are solid core designs, sort of like a nuclear power plant which vents the heated fluid out to the back, so theoretically you could make the exaust pretty clean of fissile elements and radioactivity.
The problem is despite having a high ISP, their thrust to weight ratios are lousy. This means they cannot be used as a first stage engine for launching f