Breakthrough Decodes 'Classical Holy Grail' 538
wka writes "Scientists at Oxford University have made a major breakthrough in their study of a large collection of Greek and Roman writings. Many of the documents known as the 'Oxyrhynchus Papyri' (found at 'ancient rubbish dump in central Egypt') are 'meaningless to the naked eye - decayed, worm-eaten and blackened by the passage of time.' Using an infrared technique originally developed for use with satellite imaging, scientists are able to view the original writing, which 'could lead to a 20 per cent increase in the number of great Greek and Roman works in existence'. Thus far, works by Sophocles, Lucian, Euripides, Hesiod and others have been (re-)discovered. Additionally, scientists think they 'are likely to find lost Christian gospels.' (via The Light of Reason)"
This is just in... (Score:4, Funny)
Potentially Interesting Finds, and a correction (Score:5, Funny)
Well no, but it could certainly increase the number of them that we can read.
Additionally, scientists think they 'are likely to find lost Christian gospels.'
What's the betting that the one that reads "'The Bible' copyright 134AD, Any resemblance to people past or present is purely coincidental" is quickly covered up?
Re:Potentially Interesting Finds, and a correction (Score:5, Funny)
Or the Red Dwarf version:
Newsreader: Good evening. Here is the news on Friday, the 27th of Geldof. Archeologists near Mount Sinai have discovered what is believed to be a missing page from the Bible. The page is currently being carbon-dated in Bonne. If genuine, it belongs at the beginning of the Bible and is believed to read, "To my darling Candy. All characters portrayed within this book are fictitous and any resemblance to persons living or dead is purely coincidental." The page has been universally condemned by church leaders.
Re:Potentially Interesting Finds, and a correction (Score:2)
If we cannot perceive well enough to read something, does the phrase "in existence" really apply to it?
Re:Potentially Interesting Finds, and a correction (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes.
Re:Potentially Interesting Finds, and a correction (Score:2)
Oh, never mind. We could be pedantic about things like this for another 2000 years, when they dig up our old hard drives and recover the data.
Re:Potentially Interesting Finds, and a correction (Score:3, Funny)
Those are called "gnostic gospels".
Re:Potentially Interesting Finds, and a correction (Score:5, Insightful)
Holy Blood, Holy Grail.
It really shows how much the Roman Catholic church has lied, cheated and killed to remain in power.
Too bad it's a work of fiction.
Look, I'm a hard-core atheist who believes organized religion is the biggest scam ever created, but that doesn't mean I have to accept every crazy depredation laid against a church. HBHG belongs in the same category with books about J. Edgar Hoover being on the Grassy Knoll, and Elvis living in Peoria under an alias created for him by the Federal Witness Protection Program.
And while we're at it, the Catholics didn't burn witches in the dark ages; it was a heresy to even believe in them until the High Middle Ages, and it was the Protestants who made witch hunting an organized sport.
Re:Potentially Interesting Finds, and a correction (Score:4, Informative)
First, the high middle ages lasted from 1000-1200 [sparknotes.com] or 1050-1400 [newgenevacenter.org], depending on your source. Either way, they started just before the time period given by the GP.
Second, the most famous witch hunting manuel is the Malleus Maleficarum, written by Heinrich Kramer and James Sprenger, on orders of the Pope Innocent VIII, a Catholic. The papal bull was issured on Dec. 9, 1484. The protestant reformation didn't kick off until 1517, when Martin Luther nailed his edicts to the door. There were earlier attempts, but none of them ignited like his did. Henry V, in 1419, prosecuted his stepmother, Joan of Navarre, for attempting to kill him via witchcraft. So, what we can see is that witches and witch hunting were in vogue before the protestants were around.
Re:Potentially Interesting Finds, and a correction (Score:3, Informative)
Most of the witch hunting over here in Europe occured after 1600 and endured sort of until around 1750.
The funny thing is, that mostly the catholics are blamed for the witch hunting, but in fact, the catholic church is to blame for many things, but not for being the most evil witch hunters. In fact witch hunting was sort of moderate in catholic countries, while in many prote
Re:Potentially Interesting Finds, and a correction (Score:5, Informative)
It's highly likely that Jesus had a wife. There's strong evidence to show that Jesus had Rabbii training, and strong evidence that his wife was Mary Magdelene, aka Mary of Bethany (yes, the one and same person). During that era, it was extremely unusual for a jewish male to not be married, and a Rabbii had to be married. It was basically a 'law'.
Voodoo theology. See the wikipedia article [wikipedia.org] for a level-headed description of the matter.
The Roman Catholic church has long sought to hide the line of Jesus, spread by Mary Magdelene when she moved to the area of Marseilles.
Actually, in the area of Arles, in a locality which is now known as the Saintes-Maries-de-la-Mer (I should know, I'm from there). Together with Martha, Mary of Bethany, Salome, and Lazarus, among others. Then Lazarus went on to become bishop of Marseilles, Martha went to kill a monster that wreaked havoc in Tarascon, and Magdalene ended her life in the Sainte-Baume moutains.
This happens to be one of the many popular legends that flourished in medieval folk christianism. One of the early bishops of Marseilles was actually called Lazarus, but there is no relation with the resurrected one. Similar stuff occured all over Europe, e.g. Saint-Denis, patron saint of France, has been wrongly identified with Denys the Areopagite. In my own city, Arles, the legendary first bishop Trophimus has been identified with the homonymous disciple of Paul mentioned in the New Testament.
While many such confusions may have arisen out of sincere self-delusion, one should keep in mind that holy relics (which attracted pilgrims in droves) were extremely important at the time, both in terms of prestige and of plain commercial interest. Exposing the relic of a Father of the Church was much more profitable, in any sense, than some obscure 3rd century bishop.
The deal with Clovis was renegged less than 100 years after his death, removing the line of the Menengoverians by the assassination of Dagobert II.
You are an ignorant ass. The Merovingians faded into irrelevance out of sheer incompetence. They were replaced by the descendents of Charles Martel (then a kind of "prime minister", in charge of the actual work of running the empire), not by cunning or assassination, but simply because the guy saved the country and the rest of Europe from Arab domination - which brings us to your next point...
Add to the fact that the Roman Catholic church is highly intolerant of other religions - the murder and war against the Saracens in the 11th century
Look, man, I have no particular sympathy for Catholicism, but you should remember that the relationship between Christian Europe and the Moslem world has been one of constant invasions and counter-invasions - and the Saracens called the first shots in the 7th-8th centuries, until they got their arses kicked big time by Charles Martel [wikipedia.org], and were driven out by his successors, the Carolingians - eponymous to Martel's grandson, a certain Charlemagne.
When you add up aggressions and atrocities from both sides, all you can say is that there's no winner - only a few million losers.
Thomas-
Re:Potentially Interesting Finds, and a correction (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Potentially Interesting Finds, and a correction (Score:4, Insightful)
Because they generally were religious in nature. Remember that way back in the early days of writing that very few people could read and write. Usually on the religious and ruling classes could do so. Comparing what we find from 2000 years ago to what we have on our hard drives now is comparing apples to oranges.
Re:Potentially Interesting Finds, and a correction (Score:3, Insightful)
Most of our classical work today survives in manuscripts from the middle ages and slightly before. Texts that you buy in the store are not of the form that they were found; they're pieced together from extant copies, changes are made where scribes made mistakes, etc.
I've no idea how much classical studies you've done, but if you read latin or greek, look to the bottom of a scholarly text [e.g., OCT] an
ever hear of bribes and extortion? POLITICS? (Score:3, Interesting)
"Alright Paulus, I'll do it just to f*ck that bastard emperor for sending me to this Zeus-forsaken desert, but get his ass outta the Roman empire because if anyone ever sees him again we're toast."
"Where's he gonna go? It's the whole known world?"
"Hell I dunno, send him back to friggin' heaven if he's such a hot shot".
"YES! Listen Jesus, this guy's gonna
Re:ever hear of bribes and extortion? POLITICS? (Score:3, Insightful)
If the whole thing is a simple matter of extortion, bribery and politics, then the disciples would have had to be added in later as pseudo-fictional characters as well. If that's so, then the "it's all made up" scenario trumps the "extortio
Re:ever hear of bribes and extortion? POLITICS? (Score:3, Informative)
The concept of being chosen by God refers to Abram (later, Abraham) rolling out of Mesopotamia and being given everything he could see from the top of Mount
Moses on Sinai comes later, after Egypt, and the organizational behavior lesson that real change takes two generations.
That's all well and good, but.. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:That's all well and good, but.. (Score:3, Funny)
I certainly hope not!! That would take all of the fun out of it. I quite like getting random medication every month - makes life really worth living.
"Holy Grail" indeed (Score:2)
dei scientiam arrident
Obligatory... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Obligatory... (Score:3, Funny)
Classicist 3 Scientists (Score:5, Informative)
In this case, lost works by Sopholces are invaluable; we have only 7 of his plays complete. Any scrap we can add to the corpus provides a much better perspective of greek tragedy in general. And the possibility of finding lost gospels is always exciting for those of us interested in the development of Christianity.
So to sum it up: Thanks for the help, guys! We'll be sure to include your names when people start asking who's responsible for the next crappy sword-and-sandal flick!
Re:Classicist 3 Scientists (Score:5, Interesting)
As Carl Sagan explained it:
Imagine that we had some plays by this Shakespeare fellow, Titus Andronicus, Coriolanus, Cymbaline, Pericles, The Life of Timon of Athens, The Winter's Tale and Troilus and Cressida.
Fine plays all. We know from the record that he wrote a few other plays that were well regarded in his time, but alas, those have been lost.
KFG
Re:Classicist 3 Scientists (Score:3, Insightful)
But the thing of major interest is the discovery that there may be more than just Theogeny and Works and Days by Hesiod. What does Hesiod's other writings say?
twenty + comments (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:twenty + comments (Score:5, Insightful)
That's actually the criticism many people have of Christianity, you realise? As pertaining to trying to fit findings to a theory rather than theory to available evidence.
Reading the article (which is a form of heresy in itself...) this is an exciting development, though it does make you wonder how many previous archaelogical finds got discarded over the years because no-one had an inkling as to their possible value.
Re:twenty + comments (Score:3, Insightful)
OTs to the lot of them, I say!
Re:twenty + comments (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, you can imagine why people in the sciences might be a little snarky on this subject. A lot of the history of Christianity revolves around bashing people who try to point out the actual reality of the universe. Those people (scientists) do get a little tired of the unrelenting "seek to tear down" (to use your phrase) attitude from the religious side of the spectrum. So, must of the comments in that tone about this article are made in the context of a more-secular-than-usual audience, and presume a certain world-weariness on this subject.
Re:twenty + comments (Score:4, Insightful)
The problem is, while religions do not make it a secret that they have a particular worldview and a set of beliefs (and thus, sometimes violent and not-so-righteous acts to enforce those beliefs), science is supposed to be objective, fact-based, and experimentally-verified. I'm not here to say that scientists should be completely free of bias or any personal prejudices, but they definitely shouldn't let those things guide nor hinder their work in science---not anything more than initial inspiration, anyway. Religion-bashing does not belong to the "people in sciences". Religion, as far as science is concerned, should be irrelevant---personally significant (either in a positive way or negative way) to a particular scientist, maybe; but it should in no way influence (either positively or negatively) his work in science.
Is this a double-standard? Yes. But I put forward this double-standard as a double believer in scientific principles and Christ. And, as much as I don't like fundamentalists standing in the way of scientific progress, I am appalled by atheists exploiting success of science (which neither presumes nor denies existence of God, so far, at least) to bash religion. I would even go as far as to say that such coattailing is more cowardly act than oppressing minority beliefs under the authority of a powerful Church (a couple centuries back, anyway).
Re:twenty + comments (Score:4, Insightful)
Many (if not most or all, depending on how you measure) of those impacts are negative - and it makes perfect sense for science (and scientists) to analyze, and comment on, religion.
I am an atheist recisely because I am a scientist. If I were to, say, go into my lab and decide to believe that the electron had a positive charge, without any evidence whatsoever, and certainly no evidence that was verifiable & repeatable, I would be ignorant and stupid. Worse, if I got other people to believe this 'fact' that had no evidence to support it, I would be guilty of something worse: intentionally misleading people.
I apply the same standards to everything, because a world (and human society) in which what is is more important than what we might wish is better than one in which we tell ourselves stories and them call them truth.
Re:twenty + comments (Score:3, Insightful)
As an athiest, I don't think science puts the nail in religion's coffin. All the scientific explanations for the universe and it's functioning can be accepted as the design of God. And any contradictory passages in the bible can be labled as metaphor.
If anything puts the nail in religion's coffin, it's history.
Religions (at least the popular ones) have failed
Re:twenty + comments (Score:5, Insightful)
Science does not and cannot disprove God (i.e. the idea of a supernatural Creator): such a concept is beyond science altogether. It is not possible to prove or disprove the fact that the world was initially created by a sentient being.
However science, or even plain common sense, puts a lot of strain on religions, that is, particular teachings based on sacred revelations.
Religion consists in switching off your brain and believing the unbelievable. Not only that, but believing in one particular set of unbelievable things, to the exclusion of any other. Hint: What is the difference between a religion and a cult, except for size and political impact ?
I would even go as far as to say that such coattailing is more cowardly act than oppressing minority beliefs under the authority of a powerful Church
Show me a preacher burnt at the stake (as in real fire and real charred flesh, not metaphorically) by a council of scientists and I'll agree with you.
Thomas-
Re:twenty + comments (Score:3, Insightful)
Right now the christians talibans control the US govt at the highest levels, the presidency, leadership of both houses of congress, the attorney generals office and even a good portion of the supreme court. There is a reason for that, they know how to figh and win.
It's time the atheists and the people who believe in science get active. We all know what happens when
You misunderstand (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:twenty + comments (Score:3, Insightful)
Woah! Woah! Hold up!
Since when are comment posters intrinsically "people in the sciences"? You might note that the actual scientists quoted in the article didn't find it necessary at all to take any potshots, and most of the comments I've read here from people who claim to be in the field recognize Christian artifacts as a great archeological find, not an opportunity to slip in a few snide comments.
A lot of the
You did know Vatican contributes to hard science? (Score:3, Insightful)
"A graduate of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and the University of Arizona, Consolmagno sees nothing incongruous about storing chunks of interplanetary debris next to the courtyard where Pope John Paul II presides
Re:twenty + comments (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:twenty + comments (Score:3, Insightful)
So it was not really much of a choice.
Epure Si Mueve (Score:3, Insightful)
Ahh, those silly lost gospels (Score:2, Funny)
Finally they can decode In The John 3:16: "An_ _e_us we_t dow_ on t_e me_ty co_k _hrou_h t_e gl_ry _ole."
Hopefully it won't upset too much in religion.
Re:Ahh, those silly lost gospels (Score:3, Funny)
"And Jesus wept down on the meaty cook [who] brough[t] the glor[ious (sic.)] mole."
Sounds like Jesus had a terrific, Mexican-themed last supper. I'm sure people south of the border will be thrilled with this news.
This is exciting but not particularly new... (Score:5, Informative)
The use of multispectral imaging (MSI) to view ancient papyri has been going on for some years now, with the following being some of the most interesting projects:
- recovering text from a manuscript containing 10th century copies of some of Archimedes works which had been erased and over-written in the 12th century. http://www.thewalters.org/archimedes/frame.html [thewalters.org]
- similar to the project above, this is the recovery of carbonised Roman papyri found in Herculaneum (which was covered in 100 feet of lava during the eruption of Vesuvius in 79 AD) http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-14522 44_1,00.html [timesonline.co.uk]
There are also lots of other artefact imaging projects, such as that being carried out by the Digital Hammurabi Project (http://www.jhu.edu/digitalhammurabi/ [jhu.edu]), who want to digitise (make high-res 3D computer models of) ancient cuneiform tablets or the work at the University of Kentucky which may allow text to be 'read' without the artefact being touched at all - using a CT scan which can be decoded on a computer http://www.research.uky.edu/odyssey/fall04/seales. html [uky.edu]
Awesome stuff...
CSI style (Score:2, Funny)
Now don't let them in on this... (Score:5, Funny)
$ fortune
Re:Now don't let them in on this... (Score:4, Funny)
Copyright? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Copyright? (Score:3)
i'm waiting (Score:4, Funny)
When they find it ... (Score:4, Funny)
... for God's sake let them drink using the wooden cup and not the golden. I tell you, I've seen it happen before, I know.
Non-Ecumenical Gospels (Score:5, Interesting)
We have no original texts (Score:5, Informative)
And for your general information, the other gospels and new testament works have not been "tainted" through translation or interpretation- anyone who wants to can still access the original greek of those texts.
We have no original texts; the earliest texts that we have are fragments of copies of copies. Unsurprisingly, these multi-generation copies disagree with each other in places. One well known disagreement is the ending of Mark. The modern ending is found in none of the earliest manuscripts, and when we do begin finding manuscripts with an ending, we find two different endings. The Catholic Church declared the currently popular ending canonical at the Council of Trent in the 16th century.
There is also no "the Bible." Each major branch of the Christian church has their own Bibles, with numbers of books ranging from about two dozen for the Syrian church to 66 for the Protestants to 81 for the Ethiopian church. The most common dates I've seen for the Gospel of Thomas are 100-150, which puts it in about the same range as the 90-120 dates for the Gospel of John.
Since you brought up Paul, it's worth examining the authenticity of his writings too. For example, the Ethiopian Bible has 3 letters to the Corinthians, while the Catholic/Protestant Bible has only 2 such letters. Several of his epistles, including 3rd Corithians, were debated strongly when the Catholic church began putting together its Biblical canon in the 4th century. The Catholics rejected 3rd Corinthians, but kept several of the other more dubious epistles, which modern scholars now have come to same conclusion that some 4th century bishops did--they were forgeries.
The controversy over what was really canonical or not erupted again in Europe with the Protestant Reformation. Luther rejected the apostolicity of Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation, and moved them to the back of his translation of the Catholic Bible. Modern rediscoveries of the gnostic gospels, and communication between the European branch of Christianity with branches in Asia and Africa with their different Bibles have brought these controversies to life again.
Tech where? (Score:3, Interesting)
The significance of "new" gospels... (Score:4, Interesting)
N.B. I don't include Thomas in quite this category - it is a much more complicated case. But, despite the shrill nonsense that comes from the entertainment industry (anybody see the epigraph on "Stigmata") most scholars, myself included, would not regard Thomas in its present form as even being in the same class as the 4 canonical gospels.
At any rate, I suspect that any "lost gospels" found here will be of limited interest, mostly to scholars and pedants. Move along, nothing to see here.
Re:The significance of "new" gospels... (Score:5, Funny)
>Think of a 50 foot tall cross walking out of Jesus tomb, shouting imprecations upon Jerusalem.
Yeah, because that's just sooo much more fantastic than floating axes and talking bushes.
Re:The Floating Axe Gospel (Score:3, Interesting)
The old testament is simply a collection of stories from around the world as told by merchants and travelers. It's more like a book of short stories which contain retelling of myths.
Why somebody based a whole religion around it is a mystery to me, why people this day and age believe it to be 100% true and want to hang passages from it in their court house and schools is incredible to me.
Re:The significance of "new" gospels... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm guessing you're referring to 'historical' in the sense of the gospels recording historical events. What about the rest of the world? People used the rhetoric and ideas of Christianity to address problems outside the usual scope of the religion, or tried to mold the religion to fit personal or political objectives. These lost gospels tell us how people use religion, whether or not the religion has any sort of cosmic truth to it.
And, as scholars are the people who write the history books, they are the ones who determin what has historical value.
Your post reminds me of the religion students who used to take Greek with me at university. "Why are we reading Attic Greek?" they would ask, "We only need Koine to read the Bible!" There's far more to the ancient world than the 50-something (depending on denomination) books of the Bible, and even the Bible doesn't represent a self-contained system of information.
You don't find this interesting ???? (Score:5, Insightful)
Your example suggests that only 150 years after his death Christ was viewed as a super-human avenging spirit. 2000 years later we view him as a meek and mild self-sacrificing man. Yet the text of the gospels remains them same.
If you fail to see any interest here, I suspect you are more interested in reiterating the rhetoric of your teachers rather than studying early Christianity and interpreting the scriptures in the context of the epoch in which they were written and the church founded.
Re:You don't find this interesting ???? (Score:5, Insightful)
By the way, have you read that Unabomber manifesto? Turns out the average American is anti-technology and bombs people through the mail system, which is apparently the primary use of the mail system in 20th century America. And the recent find of "Dianetics" provides a fascinating view into the religious beliefs of the average American of the 20th century.
No, wait a minute, that's not right.
(One of the persistent fallacies is that the humans of the past are somehow different than today, particularly in their uniformity. They aren't, and the historically-rejected writings of one guy are about as representative as the same happening today, which is to say, not necessarily useless, but you might only learn about the dominant paranoid schizophrenic fantasies of the day (like black helicopters and mind-control beams today), not the common man. You are getting one very small fragment of an image of the time, don't make the mistake of focusing on one small piece and projecting it out on the entire time period. You are the blind man examining the elephant, not a well-informed almost-omniscient observer.)
There is more than enough data to study the 2nd century church, one need not over-intepret one piece of evidence to push an agenda.
Nonsense (Score:5, Insightful)
Also, it doesn't help your case that you point to a couple of "Jesus Myth" sites to bolster your case. You realize that these people are considered to be a joke in the world of New Testament scholarship, don't you? The "anti-Jesus" advocates are far worse than the "pro-Jesus" advocates, so far as distorting history goes. I would suggest you read a good, standard intro to new testament, such as Raymond Brown's, before you continue to spout this bilge.
You need to read more carefully (Score:3, Informative)
As for sources, here is one that took me less than 5 minutes to find: "In the Jesus Seminar, all or most of GTh is treeated as a composition of the 50s antedating the canonical Gospels; but the majority of scholars thinks that, although GTh may have preserved some original sayings of Jesus, as a whole the work is a composition of the 2d century and reflects at time incipient gnosticism."
Raymond Brown. An Introduction to the New Testament. Doubleday, 1997.
To tr
So who said space research (Score:2, Interesting)
70-some messages so far... (Score:5, Interesting)
Elaine Pagels work in the subject is fascinating - gnosticism itself is fascinating in its contradictions and, if anything, shows how different christianity might have been.
Re:70-some messages so far... (Score:4, Interesting)
One of the reasons the early church dismissed many of those "gospels" was that they had a dubious heritage and they basically just should pave an inroad for gnosticism.
In reading for instance Thomas, you can clearly see the gnostic roots and also some greek influences which are totally in opposite of what you can gather about the personality of jesus in the other gospels.
A re-renaissance? (Score:4, Insightful)
I wonder what discoveries will be made that could cause a re-renaissance in our modern civilization.
Re:A re-renaissance? (Score:3, Funny)
Bible = 'acceptable gospels' (Score:4, Interesting)
William Burroughs and Ted Kaczynsky had predecessors.
Re:Bible = 'acceptable gospels' (Score:3, Interesting)
The parent-post is perfectly legitimate in that it describes just one of several methods employed by aspiring holy-men. Deprivation and seclution are still practiced, formally and informally even today by various flavors of every popular religion. Several of the gospels were the result of some really crazy bugger stumbling back into town/village/citystate and clai
Nothing to see here, move along. (Score:3, Funny)
Lost works (Score:3, Insightful)
I'd be very keen on reading any of her poems. What little we still have is all fragmentary, and highly unlikely to be representative of her best
So come on, folks, please look for her poetry too, while you're reading about 50-foot tall crosses.
Lost Christian Gospel Translated! (Score:3, Funny)
-- Gospel of Terry
Re:rawr (Score:5, Informative)
We have plenty of examples of this, we do have a fair bit of background from many already avaiable anciant greek and roman works as to the culture of morality revolving around sexual attitudes back then.
These works are more likely to be a boon to the study of the more esoteric areas of the cultures , not that i dont doubt we will find some works relating to the sexuality of the cultures , This is by far in a way not a main area of study.
Though you are right that eroticism has driven many technoligies , but this is more of particular note in more represed cultures, as the current theorys go the anciant Greek and (earlyer) anciant Roman society were far less prudish about their bodys then we tend to be nowadays so pornography would be far less prolific as it tends to thrive where sexuality is less open.
Re:rawr (Score:2)
And I also would enjoy the discovery of some more vulgarities in ancient languages. You get tired of the same 500 words for "whore" (which is the only one of plenitude) after a while.
Re:rawr (Score:2)
Pornography is a much overused term in this day and age , Perhaps i am using an antiquated meaning of pornography , though i like to use it when refering to things that are slightly edgy and made to be sensational.
latin is indeed a very rich language , though i argue the point that these were vulgarities , as well tastes change and only now do we see them as vulgarities
many may have been vulgarities , though i admit to not being
Re:rawr (Score:2)
There are quite a few translations of each work online. Obviously, the original Latin can be translated in many different senses, but not all of us have the time or training to translate.
Re:rawr (Score:2)
This is also one of the reasons i would love to find time to start learning Latin again, as honestly Reading Faust in its origional form is far superior to any translation so i imagine the same would be true for these works of which my latin couldnt even get near,
Re:rawr (Score:2)
Re:rawr (Score:2)
i speak next to no anciant greek , but does porneia have any other meanings as im sure i have heard it explained with another meaning?
Re:rawr (Score:3, Funny)
Plato was an Emacs user!
<dons asbestos boxers>
Re:Bibles (Score:4, Informative)
I hope one of the new gospels has something that will really get the Bible-thumpers in a rage.
Doubtfull. It's well known among biblical scholars that there are works in Christianity that have been rejected from 'the cannon" of works that is the bible. These books are refered to as Apocrypha [wikipedia.org] Rejecting alternative texts as authoritative is old hat at far as Christianity is concerned.
Re:Bibles (Score:3, Informative)
This might seem very confusing, but it isn't, really.
Re:Bibles (Score:5, Interesting)
The "Lost Gospels" are not lost as much as they were *not preserved* by copiests in the early years of the Church. Fragments of many of them have been known. Occasionally an entire work - like the Gospel of Thomas are discovered.
They are extraordinarily useful for helping people understand the early fights within the Church. And for putting the writings that the Church has deemed Orthodox into perspective (since we finally have access to the documents that the cannonical works were written in response to).
Re:Bibles (Score:3, Interesting)
> I hope one of the new gospels has something that will really get the Bible-thumpers in a rage. Something like "Thou shalt not discriminate against gays"
The (purported) Secret Gospel of Mark [wikipedia.org] would fill the bill, though as others have already pointed out, Christians have spent the last 16-17 centuries ignoring the ones that the early Church decided were off-message.
However, the fact that all we have of the SGoM are quotes of the sexual shockers purportedly in it is makes me suspect that it is a mod
New Gospels Doubtful... (Score:3, Interesting)
While Sophocles wrote over 120 plays, only 7 have been uncovered in their entirety. Missing texts may be a common theme for classical Greek literature (??), but is really not very common for Christian texts.
There are literally thousands upon thousands of ancient Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. Hundreds of copies of writings of the church fathers exist as well. In short, no one's really looking for any *new* gospels or epistles since there really aren't any indicators that they exist li
Re:Bibles (Score:3, Informative)
That would be an interesting situation, but it is unlikely. Christans of the time were mostly also Jews, any deviation from Jewish law was controversial, and therefore makes it into their writings.
Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Now christian teach on old testament law is a little complex, as the new testament replaces it. It replaces it as a continuatio
Re:Bibles (Score:2)
Now if they found a copy of the Gospel of St. Judas then I'd be amused.
They already did [mosnews.com].
Re:Bibles (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:God willing... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:God willing... (Score:3, Funny)
Thou shalt not pay too much for a muffler.
Re:God willing... (Score:2)
Maybe you need to pursue a better religion? There are many different churches claiming the name of Jesus. Logic dictates that they are not all necessarily the same. To my eye, the ones which come closest to truly following Jesus are the Anabaptists (Mennonites, Brethren, Amish, etc.) Not that this doesn't mean that you have to ride in a horse and buggy or wear a bonnet. Only a tiny fraction of Anabaptists choose to live "retro".
Take a loo
Re:Nature of faith (Score:2)
Re:Nature of faith (Score:2)
Some people have faith in the inherent superiority of a particular race.
All opinions do not necessarily deserve respect.
Re:Nature of faith (Score:3, Interesting)
It's not open to debate. It's a personal choice and should be respected.
A few counter-examples:
Faith can be used to justify appaling acts and discrimination or can limit
Re:Nature of faith (Score:3, Insightful)
These two I imagine could be proved or disproved relatively easily.
... '
Faith can be used to justify appaling acts and discrimination or can limit development of society, and is not something to be respected.
That's ridiculous. It's like saying 'physics can be used to destroy entire cities
Re:Nature of faith (Score:5, Insightful)
> Evidence doesn't matter.
Therefore, the fact that you can disprove the point doesn't matter. The tall-tree thing is from some Dawkins book, a belief held by a tribe with no access to space travel, telescopes etc so they couldn't disprove the point, anyway.
Faith, as the original poster puts it, is the belief in something without evidence. It is logically inconsistent: if somebody believes one thing without evidence, why not everything? How does one decide which is a 'right' faith? Is there actually some evidence required? At what point does it stop, then, being something you believe through faith and something you know through evidence?
Physics is not a belief system, it cannot be used to justify anything. It's just a collection of theories which appear, given the evidence we have, to describe our universe reasonably well. As such, you can't judge physics: it just is. E may stop equaling mc2 tomorrow, that doesn't mean physics stops.
Faith, on the other hand, as a construct of human thought, can be judged as good or bad.
Re:Nature of faith (Score:3, Insightful)
A person without some form of "faith" might aswell give up now, I mean what's the point, you and everyone else are going to die anyway. The same can be said of those who lack "logic", God won't protect you from a car accident because of the plastic Saint Christ
Re:Nature of faith (Score:3, Informative)
Science is based on the *assumption* that the universe is predictable: proof by induction. It seems to be working out pretty well for us so far, but if it stopped being true tomorrow, science wouldn't be wrong.
As is inevitable in threads like these, I should mention Karl Popper [wikipedia.org].
Re:Nature of faith (Score:3, Interesting)
Those that lack it, can never understand it.
I can understand the impulse to believe something without proof because it makes your life easier. I understand it, but I don't believe in it. Life after death, judgement of the wicked, etc, etc are all beliefs that make living life a lot easier to live. Though really I don't get the appeal of actual eternal life though. People would go all batty after the first few hundred years. I suppose many people just haven't thought it through far enough.
It's a pe
Re:Nature of faith (Score:3, Interesting)
One, a definition from Hewbrews:
"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
That is very open to interpretation, so don't be so sure you've figured it out.
A nice comment from one evangelical I like, Jim Wallis,
"Perhaps the greatest heresy of twentieth-century American religion was to make faith into a purely personal matter and a private affair."
It is risky business, protecting faith as you do. Once you say your faith can't be criticized, th
Re:BYU? (Score:3, Informative)