Huge Parachute Saves Crashing Planes 280
theodp writes "When his small plane banked uncontrollably and began spiraling toward earth, Canadian rancher Albert Kolk and his three passengers were saved by a single parachute. Big-as-a-house parachutes made by Ballistic Recovery Systems are stored behind the rear seats in small planes and fired with a rocket through the rear windshield; they're attached with high-strength lines to the plane's wings, nose and tail. Deployment videos here."
Loony Tunes? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Loony Tunes? (Score:2)
Besides, you will just create a hole in the earth in the shape of the plane and you can climb back out. (while the parachute system ends up deploying after the crash, as happened in the article).
I think that server needs one (Score:4, Funny)
Awesome (Score:5, Informative)
Prices [brsparachutes.com] are not absolutely horrifying either (starts at 2000 USD, which has the ability to save 225 pounds of stuff and human).
Not So Awesome (Score:3, Insightful)
The purpose of BRS are when there is a structural failure or when the airplane has become uncontrolled, such as getting into a spin from which the pilot cannot recover. It's really a last ditch attempt when there is no other way of staying
Re:Not So Awesome (Score:2)
Re:Not So Awesome (Score:5, Informative)
If you loose your engine in a boat, does it sink??? No. If you loose your engine in a plane, it still flys.
Case in point, I had a "catastrophic" engine failure in my Cessna 172 a while back. Engine gone... pieces left the aircraft. I landed on a road and turned into some guys driveway. He was pissed because I was blocking his drive. Never asked me how I was or what happened. When he started yelling, I pulled him over to my plane... pointed at the big hole in my cowling and all the oil running down the side of my plane. He suddenly got quiet.
I had full control of the plane the entire time... there was a sudden Roll when the engine seized, but I could fly it no problem. Went through the standard saftey checklist... shut down fuel, electrics, picked my spot... got to best glide, tuned radio to 121.5. Delcared emergency... switched the box to 7700 and flew it down. It took me about 10 minutes to get down... I even circled my landing site and then dumped 40 degrees of flaps to get it down.
Now, I see planes like the SR22 with these BRSs installed and hear stories about guys who hit turbulance and pull the cord. That's a costly mistake if there ever was one. I'm not going to pull a handle that turns my $250,000 plane into a pile of junk unless it's already junk.
Lesson here... fly the plane if it can fly. A plane is nothing but a glider with an engine... if you loose the engine... it still flys just fine.
Bill
Bill
Re:Not So Awesome (Score:4, Insightful)
Of course, the obvious solution would be to go around it before the engine fails. But I guess it depends where you live.
Re:Not So Awesome (Score:2)
Most of these systems are installed on homebuilts and ultralights. While there is a system in place to inspect homebuilts at every step, I wonder how many of thoes are 'buddy-buddy wink nudge' inspections. Do you trust your welds with your life? Are you *absolutely* sure that the epoxy on the main spar was mixed at exactly the right proportions in exactly the right temprature an
Re:Not So Awesome (Score:5, Informative)
In the best case, sure.
In reality, not true.
Have a gander at the December 2004 Flying magazine (at least, I think that was the one) -- they had a really good article about BRS chute deployments and their contributions to safety, or lack thereof. The general conclusion was that they reduce the fatality rate by about 50% in loss-of-control accidents.
(Commercial pilot/CFII/MEI/AGI/IGI)
p
Re:If you had an aeroplane? (Score:2)
And a tinfoil hat in case mind-control radio waves really are being beamed at you.
Chutes are "the law" (Score:5, Informative)
All planes have that rescue system. A small rocket which pulls the parachute out in about a second.
There are not many cases when you need it, but it saves your life if you make a fatal mistake.
Most cases are pilot errors, ie. flying in a cloud without instruments.
Wings dont break off and planes do not fall to the ground when the engine stalls.
I rather do a safe glide landing than pull the cute, EXCEPT I am over a forest or rocky terrain (which can also be put under pilot errors)
Such a backup is a good thing to have. Larger aircrafts can benefit from it too.
Chutes are complete snake oil (Score:2)
Parachutes are hailed as the save-all for pilots. Except:
Re:Chutes are complete snake oil (Score:2)
Re:Chutes are complete snake oil (Score:2)
Re:Chutes are complete snake oil (Score:2)
Bruce
Real info from a pilot (Score:5, Interesting)
I've been an FAA certified private pilot for a couple of years and read many of the monthly general-aviation magazines/websites/etc...
Just to give some real info about parachutes and small planes.
Myth # 1: Engine Failure ==> Crash.
This is very un-true. Reading usenet forums (rec.aviation.piloting/owning/student) there are a great deal of forced-landings involving full or partial engine failure. From the very beginning of flight training, you are tought to always have a place you can glide safely to. In reality, this is difficult - particularly on takeoff climbing out, but for most of the 'time' portion of any flight it is very doable.
Myth # 2: Personal Parachutes are easy - c'mon, we see them in movies all the time. Fact: it is *not* easy to jump out of a moving plane. I took about 5 hours of aerobatic lessons, and let me tell you - it's tough enough getting into small planes, but try it with a 15lb full-chair-back size parachute stuck to you. It was actually difficult getting in and out on the ground, stopped. Add to that, most airplanes have doors that open like car doors - opening to the back. Any idea what the aerodynamic forces are at, say 100 mph? The aerobatic plane I flew had an emergency full-door release that pulled out the door-hinge pins at the front.
Now, back to the BRS parachutes. These are being put mostly on Cirrus Designs aircraft - very sweet, beautiful planes IMHO. These aircraft are *very* capable, fast, and a bit tougher to fly than your average Cessna 182 (from the reports I've read). Most times an aircraft gets in trouble, it's due to the pilot making a bad decision, not due to engine failure. Bad decisions like: flying into bad weather (IMC), scud running below low overcast, etc... These are the places where BRS was intended to be used:
1. Inadvertant Spins - the Cirrus is highly spin resistant, but it is possible & people have died in Cirrus following a spin.
2. Full instrument failure in IMC (clouds,fog,etc). This could leave the pilot with few ways to save the lives of the people inside.
A last fact: from what I've read, the BRS does not in-fact save insurance companies money. It nearly totals the plane. Think about a house-sized parachute attached to your average family sedan, deployed by rockets at 120mph. The planes are mostly totalled, but the avionics & engine (most expensive parts after the airframe) are likely salvagable.
Re:Real info from a pilot (Score:2)
Product Liabilty distortion (Score:5, Interesting)
My father-in-law invented and marketed a device that automatically deployed a parachute if a skydiver did not pull the rip-cord and the alitude is less than N feet above MSL. He got out of the business in a hurry after he was sued because the device did not work when the parachute partially deployed - which slowed the descent enough not to fire the safety mechanism, but still fast enough to kill on impact.
So while an insurance company might save money, the manufacturer has a strong disincentive to deploy imperfect mechanisms for saving lives.
Re:Product Liabilty distortion (Score:2)
All devices fail, including safety ones. You just have to build them as best as you can.
Maybe a system where the manufacturer is only liable for "known conditions". IE they're only liable if they fail to correct the product when a defect becomes known. If the vulnerability is unfixable(IE we use seatbelts, even though they're not 100% effective), as long as you're safer with the product than without it, it's considered good.
The person who comes up
Re:Product Liabilty distortion (Score:2)
Sounds like another point for the need for tort reform.
Sounds to me like its a need for someone to actually fight a lawsuit in court. Better yet, if you have money, carry an umbrella policy!
Not only can you get $1,000,000 worth of insurance for relatively very little cost, when you get sued, its the insurance company's money on the line, and they'll fight the case for you. Even, God forbid, if it is your fault, a $1,000,000 tends to cover almost any civil settlement. If you are really paranoid, y
Re:Product Liabilty distortion (Score:2)
In this example the inventer of this particular system of parachute created a system that costs about 10k that has a chance of returning a plane no longer capable of controlled flight to the ground in relative safety. A problem occurs, and suddenly the company is being sued for $26 million. That is the total cost of 2,600 of these systems. IE in order to cover this liability, they would have to double the cost of the system to $20,000, and s
Re:Product Liabilty distortion (Score:2)
Which was a form of tort reform. Seems to have worked, hasn't it? People aren't afraid to give CPR anymore.
By that I mean that every company should have sufficient liability insurance.
And how is the insurance company supposed to underwrite a new safety device without charging an arm and a leg for it? How can a small business, strained by just the R&D and initial construction afford it?
Everyone knows that even in the most sue-happy area, medicine, lawsuits
Re:Product Liabilty distortion (Score:2)
Huh? I'm not a republican. When I say tort reform, what I mean is an acceptance that there are risks in the world, and that personal responsability should be a bigger part. Also, that a lawsuit should be somewhat harder to bring. It is a difficult process to tune.
And you mention google. I tr
Re:Product Liabilty distortion (Score:2)
Re:Product Liabilty distortion (Score:2)
And how many of them were developed after, say, the '80s? How many of them are simply refinements of existing technologies? We're not saying that safety isn't a large industry, that existing safety devices don't have a place, but we're saying that existing liability laws are an obstacle to new safety devices reaching market.
The mythology is that one evi
Re:Product Liabilty distortion (Score:2)
And I do. You didn't notice, but I structured my statements carefully. Done right, it would make it harder for corporations to sue too. I fully support the anti-SLAPP laws, for example.
I guess what I think needs to happen is that lawsuits need to be avoided where possible, while still making the process cost less
Re:Product Liabilty distortion (Score:2)
It's not the parachute that caused the plane crash. Rather, the parachute failed to prevent the plane from crashing. Learn the damn difference. Nine times out of ten, the actual cause of the crash is pilot error, like grandparent post already expla
Re:Real info from a pilot (Score:2)
However, I don't think the real question is whether a plane is BRS equipped. From a physics standpoint, a BRS equipped plane isn't any different from any other plane with a little extra cargo.
This isn't like an airbags or no airbags argument- the driver of a car has no control over the airbag deployment once they are enabled. This is a pilot decision argument. Will a pilot use this facility prematurely or when it isn't actually necessary, just because it
Re:Real info from a pilot (Score:5, Interesting)
I have given over 330 hours of SR22 instruction and have over 200 hours in cessna 182s. I know what I'm talking about. The SR22 is aerodynamically very clean and engine management is trivial. Landing speeds are similar. The only tricky bit is that the SR22 is faster in cruise and climb. I've transitioned 60 hour private pilot wonders from piper warriors to SR22s "takeoffs and landings" in a flight or two. Getting a feel for the avionics takes longer.
I'm not convinced (Score:5, Informative)
As a pilot (ASEL, IA) and owner (Cessna 182), I'm not convinced I could ever "pull the lever" on this thing. Once this device is deployed, you are no longer the pilot -- you are just a passenger with no control over where or how the plane will land.
Flying a small plane is not risk-free, and it never will be.
Re:I'm not convinced (Score:3, Insightful)
The article talks about the families suing the company because the parachutes didn't work. It's not like the parachutes killed them
A buddy of mine has a Cirrus... (Score:3, Insightful)
Given the choice between landing at DFW with no roll control or popping the chute... well the chute sounds pretty damn attractive to me.
Re:A buddy of mine has a Cirrus... (Score:2)
We both know it's never going to happen...do you remember that incedent where flourescent orange duct tape (so you wouldn't forget to take it off) was left on the plane (the tape was put over something while maintenence was being done, I'm not a pilot or aeronautic engineer, so I can't remember what it was), and completely fucked up the altimeter readings.
The pilot started to figure out what was going on when the tower gave differe
Re:A buddy of mine has a Cirrus... (Score:2)
No, I think the duct tape was over his altimeter, and it was the ground crew that left it there (It was an airliner, IIRC). Hopefully they learned from that.
Re:A buddy of mine has a Cirrus... (Score:2)
Probably happened before GPS.
Re:I'm not convinced (Score:2)
If you wanna risk your life, that's your call. Just promise me that your next of kin won't sue if something unfortunate ever happens, because for my sake, I want a parachute on my plane. If I can't get the thing under control before I get close to
Lawyers (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Lawyers (Score:3, Insightful)
rj
Re:Lawyers (Score:2)
Well, it works for DeBerrs...
Last I heard, there executives are forbiden from entering the USA because their buisness is in violation of a Federal Court order.
I wonder (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I wonder (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:I wonder (Score:2)
Instead of a parachute, release a hot-air balloon, heated by the engine. If the plane's going down, bam! Out comes the balloon and you genetly float off, continuing to your destination.
Sure, you may arrive a few hours/days late, but that's better than not arriving at all. ;-)
I wouldn't get one ... (Score:2)
Slow news day? (Score:2)
power of marketing (Score:2, Insightful)
The fact is that the insurance industry considers the parachute-equipped Cirrus to be a very risky airplane as evidenced by very high insurance rates and restrictive coverage.
The occasions in which deployment of a parachute would be a good solution to a problem in flight are very rare. Having the perce
Re:power of marketing (Score:3, Informative)
Sigh. SR22 has expensive insurance. SR22 has BRS. Therefore, BRS = expensive insurance.
= BULLSHIT.
The Sr22 insurance is expensive beacause it's a fast new airplane with a big engine being bought by low time pilots. The BRS has nothing to do with it.
/ I know what I am talking about.
Re:power of marketing (Score:2)
Fair enough--but linked to the speed and complexity of the aircraft.
The DA40 has a 180hp engine and a 600 pound useful load. Apples and oranges. Yes, the accident rate doesn't help, but the original poster essentially claimed that it was because of the BRS system that the insurance is high, which is nonsense.
To claim that the SR22 has poor aerodynamic design is either actual ignorance, or the sort of ignorance th
Re:power of marketing (Score:2)
Slashdot behind the times, naah :-) (Score:4, Insightful)
The problem with the parachutes is like going from a twin engine plane from a single - they aren't a panacea.
At first glance, the uninitiated may think that the parachutes solve everything. But it's easy for the parachute to actually make things worse, not better. Why:
1. You are no longer pilot in command once you deploy it. You go where the wind blows you. That might be an open field, but it also might be a school yard at playtime, a busy motorway/freeway (depending on what country you're in), the top of a tall building, the top of a tree, in power lines, the edge of a cliff etc. These are things a pilot can avoid if they are still flying the plane, even in a state of distress.
2. The landing isn't exactly smooth. It is designed to let you walk away afterwards (even if you do have a bad back from the impact). Specificially, the aircraft's structure is used to absorb the impact.
I'm a private pilot (single/multi engine, IFR - or in US FAA speak, ASMEL/IA) and if I were wealthy enough to own a Cirrus, the only time I'd use the chute is if the aicraft had suffered structural failure and was now uncontrollable. If it's still controllable, I'm still flying it.
Not as great as it sounds (Score:2)
Granted, this is better than dying in a crash, but some pilots think that you can just pull the chute any time you get in a little trouble... which can cause a lot of unnecessary scrapped aircraft.
Seat belts! (Score:3, Insightful)
Case in point: Flying with my dad in his Super Cub. We're flying along, then suddenly the plane lurches down 50-100 feet in a second or so. A second later, the plane lurches back up 50-100 feet or so.
Had I not been wearing my seat belt, I'd probably have been hurt, possibly severely -- there's support braces right above my head, and I would have hit them *hard*.
(It's not certain what happened, but presumably it was a vortex created by a jet airliner, possibly above us in the clouds. We never saw the plane that created it, however. It also did no damage to the plane (dad had it checked out after landing), but it certainly sent everything not strapped down flying.)
Re:Seat belts! (Score:2)
Re:Seat belts! (Score:2)
Are you going to assume your passangers still have their belts on, are you going to spend time visually checking to see that their belts are one, or are you going to yell "seatbelts" just to remind them to make sure?
Save your love ones... (Score:2)
Sikorsky! (Score:4, Funny)
Only in helicopters!
Parachute = safer? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not convinced that a "safer" airplane actually makes one safer. Twin engine airplanes have worse statistics for post-engine-failure accidents; the Ercoupe (a stall/spin-proof airplane which was about the only non-tailwheel plane of its time), was designed for a high level of safety but didn't have that great a record (and by the end of its life, had had all the safety features removed save the nosewheel); and the parachute-equipped Cirrus had a horrendous safety record early on.
See, for example,
http://www.aopa.org/asf/asfarticles/2004/sp0402.h
I think that reliance on safety features may tend to lead one into more unsafe behavior than one would otherwise engage in. I can say from personal observation at the AirVenture fly-in (http://www.airventure.org/ [airventure.org]) this summer that Cirrus corporate demo pilots pushed the safety envelope to the point of being grounded this past year.
It's an old truism that the superior pilot relies on superior judgement to prevent the need of his superior skills. With very, very few exceptions, wings don't fall off airplanes until some time after the pilot makes a bad decision.
rhetorical question... (Score:3, Funny)
nothing new here (Score:2)
RESERVE PARACHUTES [flyhigh.com]
Just so y'all know... (Score:2)
Re:Just so y'all know... (Score:2)
A *must* have... (Score:2)
They might re-think the design of larger planes to just have escape modules--kinda like the way they redesigned the Shuttle.
I'd also want hell if I were in ice water--or maybe the other way around, too.
God must be crazy II (Score:2)
Plane parachutes have been around for awhile; there's an example in the movie "The Gods Must be Crazy II". For most small planes, unless the wings fall off, you would probably try to land normally because once you pop the chute, you are at the mercy of high-tension lines, windmills, etc. A Cesna 152 lands at around 55 MPH, so it's not too hard to walk away if you ditch it in a field.
Just a few pennies worth of opinion (Score:3, Informative)
When I first heard about the BRS in Cirrus planes I was quite excited. This sounded like a brilliant idea and from all my reading seemed to work great. Of course, at this time I was not even a student pilot and the only Cirrus was the SR-20 (the SR-22 followed on a few months after I first started reading). I'd had an interest in flight for some time, that much is true... but I hadn't yet had the financial stability to take the plunge so to speak.
So, leap forward to the present. I'm a PP-ASEL (in FAA speak... Private Pilot, Airplane Single Engine Land), and planning on doing my Instrument and Multi in the new year... finances allowing. So how has my opinion changed in that time? Well, quite a bit actually.
1. The only time an airframe parachute makes sense is in the event of a structural failure of the aircraft. I can only see two times when this would come about; pilot error (doing aerobatics in an aircraft not built for it) or SEVERE turbulence... enough to snap the wings in a negative-G state (VERY hard to break the wings in a positive-G state on most GA aircraft). Either of these are PILOT ERROR INDUCED under most circumstances. At the first hint of severe turbulence, standard practice should be to slow the hell down and get to or preferably below maneuvring speed... at that speed the airfoil will stall before the aircraft will be severely damaged. Also
2. A BRS "save" in a Cirrus occurred some time ago when a maintenance error led to the departure of the aileron from the airframe during flight. This was probably a valid use of the parachute in this case since it was a situation that would be less than perfect. HOWEVER... it IS possible to control a plane without ailerons. I've done it... in fact my instructor was VERY adamant that I should be able to fly the plane with only rudder, throttle and trim if it came down to it. I probably have several hours of time (under the IFR hood and visual) where I was flying "hands off the yoke" for some time. Nerve-racking... but doable. Even if I then lost the rudder I have at least once flown with elevator trim, throttle and the doors of the plane (sounds funny, but it works!) If you suffer this kind of multiple failure simultaneously then you probably should have landed after the first failure!
3. An engine failure does not a parachute situation make. In fact I would avoid this where possible. Engines fail... fact of life in aviation. A plane with no engine WILL glide VERY well. During my training again I had a joke early on that by the time I reached my first cross country solo I had had more "engine failures" (simulated) than I had landings. This wasn't far from the truth. Through sheer repetition my instructor ingrained it in me to the point where it's almost a reaction now... loss of engine power equals ABCD... "Airspeed" (best glide, 65 knots in a 172), "Best Field" (locate my location to land), "Checklist" (check my fuel, mixture, carb heat, primer, fuel selector valve) and "Declare" (tune 121.5, declare an emergency, give location, dial 7700 on the transponder).
I also have an advantage with the engine failures though... I live in St. Louis, MO where there's nearly always an airfield or a suitable corn field close by... but I'm ALWAYS conscious while flying of where my "best bets" are.
4. An airframe parachute will only really help about 15% of annual accidents. This might be a low estimate, but most of my reading tells me that the most common accidents are things like controlled flight into terrain, VFR into IMC, and often bad pre-flight. One example of the latter was a recent accident here in STL where a Cessna 182 (or 210... not sure) went down after a go-around at a l
Re:this is not the first post (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Counterpoint. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Counterpoint. (Score:2)
From what I understand, and have seen, most of north america is pretty sparsely populated. Ever fly across the US
Re:Counterpoint. (Score:2)
Re:Counterpoint. (Score:2)
In contrast, most accidents happen around takeoff and landing. Which doesn't usually happen in unpopulated areas.
Re:Counterpoint. (Score:2)
Re:Counterpoint. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Counterpoint. (Score:3, Informative)
The thing with light aircraft accidents is that they tend to occur in 3 main different ways.
The first is inadvertant entry into IMC (Instrument Metoerological Conditions - essentially weather conditions inadequate for flying visually). This is all well and good if the pilot is instrument rated, but, if a non rated tries to keep flying visually, it is likely that they will enter a spiral dive, or, a spin. A BRS (Ballistic recovery system - ie parachute) wi
Re:Counterpoint. (Score:2)
You figure, people are still taking WWII planes out of junkyards and restoring them.
Re:Counterpoint. (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't see this being more practical in small planes than simply having individual passenger parachutes in small planes, and letting them bail.
The thing is that only works if you are at high enough altitude that you have time to put on the parachutes, get the door open, jump out, and have the parachute deploy.
This is much faster - you just pull a lever and it deploys, and thus is much more likely to help out in the more common real world scenarios where something goes wrong shortly after takeoff or before landing (obviously, you have to be high enough for this parachute to deploy, and it's hard to look up the stats right now as their server is toast).
Re:Counterpoint. (Score:2)
Added benefit -- it saves the plane. I imagine that the plane is damaged somewhat after a parachute deployment, but it's far better than having it crash. And it's safer for people on the ground ...
Damage after parachute landing (Score:2)
The parachute is generally sized to drop the plane within the tolerance of the landing struts. Given a relativly soft & flat surface, the damage isn't bad. Of course, this depends on why you had to deploy the paracute in the first place.
Given how expensive a plane is, it is a major plus to save it. Of course, it is also much easier to deploy the plane-chute then to try to climb out of
Re:Counterpoint. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Counterpoint. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Counterpoint. (Score:3, Informative)
Skydiver: "There's no such thing as a perfectly good airplane!"
Pilot: "There's also no such thing as a perfectly good parachute."
Skydiver: "That's why we carry two of 'em!"
(Thank you, thank you, tip your server, don't forget to try the veeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallll...)
Re:Counterpoint. (Score:2)
Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Re:Counterpoint. (Score:4, Insightful)
It's true these will not work for larger aircraft, but some have had the idea of breaking the larger airframes into a series of seating modules, and if disaster hits, the modules get closed with bulkhead doors and then each module gets ejected from the plane with 20-30 passengers and a big honking chute. Rather like the ejection system on some military craft that ejects the whole cockpit instead of just the guy.
The downside of this is obviously this won't work for existing craft. The planes would have to be built entirely differently to accomodate such a feature, and that would cost lots of coin, so of course it won't happen.
Re:Counterpoint. (Score:3, Insightful)
Modularize passenger/luggage compartments: when a module is filled, the next module is loaded. Say, 2 first class rows, 3 business rows, a small kitchen module, a 6-7 rows of cattle class, with bathrooms fore and aft.
Zero hijack potential(after all, the cockpit is TOTALLY inaccessible...). Efficiencies of loading and unloading, INCLUDING luggage (Your luggage is with you in your module...). Safety in case of airborne accident
Yes, we'd have to build a whole new cla
Re:Counterpoint. (Score:2)
Also, hijackers can threaten passengers instead of just the crew. Making the cockpit inaccessible prevents 9/11 style situations but doesn't prevent old style "take us to ___ or everybody dies" hijackings.
How would it be safe in case of an airborne accident? What's the risk of an airborne accident anyway? Air travel is so overwhelmingly safe that building giant parachuting pa
Re:Counterpoint. (Score:2)
Actually, with that system in place, those would be eliminated or severly curtailed in their effectiveness as well. Try this one on for size: A hijack is announced with 5 hijackers, who claim they have a bomb. The pilot hits stage 1, which brings all the bulkhead doors down and seals the plane into 12
Re:Counterpoint. (Score:2)
If we had a material like that, would we not put it around the engines and control surfaces already?
The point of 9/11 (Score:2)
Re:Counterpoint. (Score:2)
Re:Counterpoint. (Score:2)
Re:Counterpoint. (Score:2)
Chute deployment: perhaps 20-30 seconds. .....
Passengers (and pilot) putting on parachute (while strapped into their seat in a spiraling plane) then bailing out under uncontrolled conditions and not getting hit by plane parts, and then
splat.
Then of course, there's the problem of teaching your 5-year old kid how to properly deploy a parachute (not to ment
Re:Counterpoint. (Score:5, Informative)
Alas, you are simply ignorant on this matter.
I fly and teach in a Cirrus SR22 with a built in ballistic parachute. Frankly, if you look at the cost/benefit of such a system, it's wasted money - for the vast, vast, VAST bulk of SR20/22 pilots, the money would be much better spent on an additional, say, 160 hours of flight training.
However, there are many many situations where a balistic airplane parachute is a far better choice than an individual parachute.
One is an uncontrolled spin / structural failure situation. Now, mind you that the parachute is not strictly certified to open in all flight regimes, but, frankly, if your airplane starts breaking apart, you may well not be able to make it the door. This is why fighter pilots in WW2 often died despite wearing parachutes.
Two is aerodynamic design. The SR22 is very sleek. The way it is designed, it is damn near impossible to open the doors in flight (not that I've tried - I've done this plenty of times with cessnas and so forth), but since the SR22 is designed for speed and (considernig the speed) economy, making jump-outable doors would be neigh-on impossible.
Aircraft Survivability (at least the chance of) - at least one aircraft where the BRS has been deployed has flown again after not too extensive work. I dont know many bailed out of aircraft that can say the same.
Environmental survivability. These things are going to be pulled often over mountainous terrain. If you land with the airplane, not only do you have a shelter, but you have the survival junk you store in the back. Same can't be said for bailing out. Oh ya, and you're also close to the aircraft's Emergency Locator Transmitter for emergncy purposes.
Re:Counterpoint. (Score:2)
A few years ago, I was taking lessons in a Cessna 152. On my third flight, when we were to be doing stalls, the door opened at about 100-200ft and didn't want to sh
Re:Counterpoint. (Score:2)
Don't know much about small planes or parachutes do you?
1. It tends to take some training to learn how to use a parachute. I do not think many four year olds would figure it out in an emergency. I guess you could leave the kids behind.
2. Everybody would have to wear the chute all the time and that would be uncomfortable.
3. Many four seat planes have only one door
Re:Counterpoint. (Score:5, Interesting)
I personally knew the man who died in the Oct 29 plane crash [turnto10.com] in Rhode Island. That article is a bit inaccurate, but all the news reports were in regards to the crash. He had built the plane (Adventure Air Amphibious 6-seater) in his garage over the course of almost 15 years and it had only been in the air for about a month when it went down. During that entire time he studied to get his private pilot's certificate and all the relevant certifications to properly fly his plane. He was a very good pilot by all the accounts that I had heard (my father - he's also a pilot, and other friends of his).
Anyways, the plane went down about 2.5 miles off the end of the runway, which is about a minute of flying, and by my guess (I am a student pilot with 47 flight hours logged), maybe 1000' or 1500' of elevation AGL. I don't yet know what went wrong that day, but I get the impression from the eyewitness report that the plane was intact until it hit. The bigger factor for me is that I saw how much detail he put into the plane... he was a stickler for perfection and he knew his stuff (he studied mechanical engineering before going into law). So this leads me to believe that the plane was OK as far as the airframe. With a huge parachute like that and even just 500' elevation to pull it, he just might have survived the crash.
The cockpit of that plane and the big harnesses that he had in there would have taken more time to get out than he had. Whole-plane parachutes give pilots more time to react, rather than having to aim the plane away from (as was the case in Paul's crash) a shopping mall, unbuckle yourself, open the canopy (not an option in certain planes where you'd have to push the door against the air resistance), bail, and pull your chute. This is a big problem because most crashes happen in the very first or the very last minutes of flying (when the plane is flying slow and is more susceptible[sp?] to stalling). It can save lives.
Just my $0.02.
Re:first post! (Score:2)
Re:first post! (Score:2)
But how is any of this front page
To be correct. (Score:2)
To be absolutely correct, BRS has been supplying their system to Cirrus for several years (with several 'saves' too)
Re:They forgot... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Not as good as it sounds (Score:3, Insightful)
There's those errors, there's the freak accidents, and there's those kinds of wierd whether conditions you couldn't predict (like a sudden fog when there's supposed to be none). I'd still like the safety of a parachute.
Your claim is kinda like saying that cars with airbags are more unsafe too, beca
Re:Not as good as it sounds (Score:5, Insightful)
BULLSHIT!!!
I am a flight instructor. I also teach on the SR22 (340 hours SR22, 7800 total time).
I am *not* a big fan of the parachute--I don't think it's as cost effective as additional training, but your claims about its use and insurance rates dont stand up to any scrutiny.
First, the insurnace bit: the insurance rates for an SR22 are higher for your Cessna because an SR22 costs about 5-6 times what your cessna 172 does, has an engine with over twice the horsepower, and flies a hell of a lot faster. Plus, the SR20/22, the only aircraft with these included standard, are relatively new airframes, which always make rates higher.
Second: the "instructor idiot" bit. Let me ask you: do you also wear a seat belt / shoulder harness because your instructor was an idiot? Because, the first thing that must be said is that your assinine comment is no smarter than that of the idiots in the 50s who said that seat belts would only encourage reckless driving.
No? then let me ask you another question: when would a good pilot deploy the parachute? say, control system failure due to a control line being snagged at a pully or something? Hmm.. let's see.. no way for a pilot to check this during preflight. So according to your "explanation" this is to be blamed on maintenance. So basically what you're saying is that "we should not install safety devices in aircraft because this will encourage bad maintenance." That is beyond stupid.
Third, there is another MAJOR aspect to the BRS system - a lot of these planes are being bought by 60 year old doctors and lawyers. Doctors and lawywers who have heart attacks. While flying with their wives. 'Nuff said.
I'd write more, but you are a moron and it ain't worth it.
Re:Hope those strings are fireproof... (Score:2)