Is the Future of Silicon Valley Solar? 309
Noryungi writes "In this provocative article, Brian McConnell argues that Silicon Valley, instead of staying in the saturated IT field, should apply its resources (including its chip-producing plants) into Solar Power/Renewable energy. Intel branded Solar Panels, anyone?"
We need to look into more alt. energy (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem with alt.energy (Score:3, Funny)
I'd rather have sci.energy or even rec.energy.
Re:We need to look into more alt. energy (Score:4, Insightful)
California could get large-scale solar generator farms, but given the fragility of the ecosystem in much of the Mojave Desert....
Re:We need to look into more alt. energy (Score:2)
Re:We need to look into more alt. energy (Score:2, Insightful)
I am no tree-hugging environmentalist. I haven't seen any studies that convince me that wind farms are a significant danger. I am in favor of them.
Still with the blade length that is being used now, even at low RPMs the tips are moving pretty damn fast. They are also so widely spaced that they won't have a 'presence'. It would just be this massive thing that comes slicing through at over 100 MPH. But admittedly they are far enough apart that most birds would pass through the ci
Re:We need to look into more alt. energy (Score:2)
I went on a tour of the Pickering nuclear plant in Ontario, and they were talking about how the warm water they pump out into the lake was attracting fish, which were getting caught in the pumps and shredded. They tried putting flashing lights on it to scare them away, and apparently in just turned into a fish disco party
Oil isn't an electricity source for the US (Score:2)
Re:Oil isn't an electricity source for the US (Score:2)
Re:Oil isn't an electricity source for the US (Score:2)
Re:Oil isn't an electricity source for the US (Score:2)
We use lots of oil to create electricity, so increasing the amount of
electricity generated by alternative means will reduce one source of
oil demand.
The future isn't now, but it's soon. (Score:2, Interesting)
When this is released, they'll also be distributing hydrogen generators, enabling the average consumer to extract the gas from water at virtually no expense by using the electricity provided by such devices as wind turbines and solar panels.
Such an event would provide silicon valley wi
Re:The future isn't now, but it's soon. (Score:2)
Re:The future isn't now, but it's soon. (Score:2)
Re:The future isn't now, but it's soon. (Score:2)
True, but the photons that rain down from heaven, every day, automatically, for free, guaranteed for the next billion years, is about as close as it gets to AFL. All we need is a practical way to convert them into fuel.
Oil prices have been going down, not up (Score:2)
It's a pretty safe bet that when your alternative energy project goes on line oil will be cheap enough to bankrupt you. OPEC has never been able to maintain a stable price. Hydro power sites have been exhausted, much of the desert wild lost in the construction of the Glen Canyon Dam has been restored by the drought.
Re:This is NOT OFF topic! MOD PARENT UP! (Score:2)
OPEC (Score:2)
Me, I'd like to try what some countries & large companies did with microsft. Threaten to switch away from them(fund alternative research), forcing them to drop prices.
Realistically speaking, even if the USA went completely alternative, there'd still be a huge oil market consisting of the rest of the world.
Re:We need to look into more alt. energy (Score:2)
But don't worry. This wrap-and-claim thing will self-correct itself as more and more Midwesterners leave the area for places less destitute. At least, you will have hundreds of thousands leave the MW via the "join the military" route.
Ohio is a great place to be from. Those with sense and ambition choose to leave. I made the singular mistake of coming back to the family+friends zone, and will soon correct that mistake. I've never before seen so m
Offtopic - sig (Score:2)
By that definition, anarchy is a "stable society". I'd say that in a stable society, schoolyards don't get gunned down in the first place.
Re:Offtopic - sig (Score:2)
Re:more alt. energy (Score:2)
I hope that when all those windmills are put up in the poorer sections of country *, that the local folk will be the ones to see the cost benefits.
*
A small mistake in the article (Score:5, Informative)
Einstein didn't dicsover photoelectric effect, he has EXPLAINED it (and earned a Nobel Prize for it).
More details on the history (Score:4, Informative)
Sun Microsystems? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Sun Microsystems? (Score:3, Funny)
Shhhh....they don't want the public to know about their Sun Solar Panel and Sun Ray perpetual energy machine...
Re:Sun Microsystems? (Score:3, Funny)
Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Intel (Score:2)
They have a large facility in Ireland, which I've visited, and they certainly do chip fabrication there.
Also a friend and colleague of mine did a PhD that was sponsered by Intel. This research was entirely concerned with details of the fabrication process (using some data/input from the actual process being operated in Dublin).
Re:Intel (Score:5, Informative)
You are probably confusing this with companies such as ARM [arm.com]. They are merely a chip design and intellectual property company now, however in spite of the "merely" this is still an enormous economic asset in today's tech arena.
Re:Intel (Score:2)
which is important for them - and to stay on top of the game they need to research the fabbing by themselfs.
with ramping up the clockspeeds fabricating(and related tech) is a quite important part of the process(hell, it's the most important).
Re:Intel (Score:2)
Well, that's the end of THAT proposal.
Not a bad idea (Score:5, Insightful)
A house with these panels can provide most of its energy, and on sunny days even feed excess back into the grid (electric company pays YOU)
Considering the enery crisis, and terror threats to centralized power, it would seem irresponsible NOT to try and push for distributed solar power generation. It makes sense in almost every way (money, eco-friendly, security)
Re:Not a bad idea (Score:2)
Out here in snowy Iowa on the other hand...
Re:Not a bad idea (Score:3, Insightful)
If you want to get extra efficiency into your house you are best off with evacuated tube solar collector running with antifreeze like this one http://www.apricus-solar.com/index.htm [apricus-solar.com]and a heat exchanger. If you h
Re:Not a bad idea (Score:2)
It'd have the best return on new construction.
Re:Not a bad idea (Score:2)
Re:Not a bad idea (Score:3, Insightful)
Peak electricity usage is on sunny, hot, summer days. If there was a way for people to sell excess electricity back into the grid, the demand would be a lot lower on those days.
So while most people are at work, their house could be providing the electricity to keep their refrigerators and clocks and air condititioners running AND to keep them cool at work, or keep the
Re:Not a bad idea (Score:2)
If roof top solar power is truly a net savings for the property owners, building codes might be changed to require them. That is what is done currently to force builders not to cheap out in construction were it will hurt the owner in the long run, such as with insulation standards.
Re:Not a bad idea (Score:2)
And as you can imagine, the electric companies hate this. They oppose it everywhere they find out about it. Usually they claim it's on technical grounds (i.e. the installation isn't done properly, the equipment will cause massive blackouts, etc.) which are usually complete BS. Some installations might, but if it's done right [solar4power.com], then it will work perfectly [wisc.edu].
Re:Not a bad idea (Score:2)
Re:Not a bad idea (Score:2)
Maybe someday they won't need their own generatators
and will just run transmission. Then they can be like banks who just play the spread. At a bank they lend out money and a way higher rate than they pay on savings accounts. Seems a like a sweet deal of the electric companies.
Re:Not a bad idea (Score:2)
However decentralizing the power generation IS a good thing (your security point I believe), and a major upswing in demand would help push/fund/encourage research to reduce the downsides by improving thier effecient, manufacture cost, and longevity.
So on a whole I'm for increasing th
Re:Not a bad idea (Score:2)
The glass gets dirty, and it might get broken, but if you clean the glass regularly (once a year is good enough) and nothing breaks them (shatter-resistant glass), they'll essentially operate forever.
Decentralizing power is something we should have done in the 1950 and 60s. Eisenhower built the beloved Interstate Highways to protect from Soviet Attack. But with a nation dependent on electricity, all the Ruskies wo
Re:Not a bad idea (Score:2)
Re:Not a bad idea (Score:2)
All that law would do is crush construction companies, which are a cornerstone in our economy.
I am all for using more renewable resources, but if it's undesirable and not cost-effective vs. petroleum, then you shouldn't force it.
Keep the legislation out of it. When the market tires of our upcoming $80 barrels of oil and has finally made solar cost effective (as anoth
Re:Not a bad idea (Score:4, Insightful)
Hmmmmm....
funny they seem to be making record profits in CA.
"Why would I want to buy a home in California if I have to install additional expensive stuff that won't get me my money back yet? I'd rather move elsewhere."
Some people aren't as shortsighted.
The technical facts are:
(*) houses and commercial buildings have a very long valuable lifetime, which is why you can get a 30 year mortgage, and why you need to.
(*) the future path of energy costs may be unknown and may be far more expensive than today. Given the known production rates and declines of North American natural gas production due to actual depletion, this is hardly unlikely. Coal is still, and will be quite polluting and worse for greenhouse emissions.
(*) energy efficient construction and self-generation may be significantly cheaper and more effective and less ugly when designed into a house when originally built. Like, say, indoor plumbing.
(*) there is a major commons economic problem with energy efficiency. You put on one new energy-guzzling house on the grid, say a big cheaply built tract home in a hot area like San Bernadino (where lots of new houses are being put up, as the cool places near the coasts are already completely full) and the customer has to pay a certain electric bill. Fine, it's their problem.
But when lots of people do that, then suddenly there is a large strain on the overall grid capacity and transmission, and the utility has to raise rates significantly for EVERYBODY (not just the new A/C guzzling houses) and everybody suffers from poor service reliability. And of course there is more demand for the limited fuel supply and the price goes up too.
The choices made in building will influence energy consumption for decades to a century.
Are you feeling lucky?
Re:Not a bad idea (Score:2)
Just like you can get automotive financing for 5-7 years now. The mortgage term bears no relation to the longevity of the property. Buy a 30 year old house and you can still get 30 year financing.
Re:Not a bad idea (Score:3, Insightful)
Actual physical, damage-causing attacks are far down on the threat list. Wake up. You're buying the propaganda that you're supposed to be living in fear, while the real damage is being done by your own countrymen using your own institutions.
Re:Not a bad idea (Score:2)
Hm. Are these available in Soviet Russia?
this isnt new! (Score:2, Funny)
No consumer appeal, no 'wow' factor (Score:3, Interesting)
This is the reason they've sold so well.
I just don't see it happening with solar panels. Personally, I don't want to be in the electricity production business. How many people actually do?
I'm more for the advancement of Fusion technology discussed yesterday. It's clean AND it doesn't waste my time.
Re:No consumer appeal, no 'wow' factor (Score:3, Insightful)
Small scale, green energy production is just that: a distributed system for generating electricity.
I, for one, do want to be a part of that and want to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem.
I'd love an electric car that runs 100% off of solar power generated at home. Now if only batteries weren't so freaking bad for the environment...
Re:No consumer appeal, no 'wow' factor (Score:2)
Of course, I'd start with warehouses and malls before I bothered with residences.
Three other thoughts: You are most likely in the heating and/or cooling business; why don't you outsource that (in some places you can)? Also, maybe I'm a freak, but the prospect of producing clean electricity
Re:No consumer appeal, no 'wow' factor (Score:2)
Oops, I was in a rush and decided to bag the 3rd other thought...
Re:No consumer appeal, no 'wow' factor (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:No consumer appeal, no 'wow' factor (Score:2)
The reason everyone is working on higher efficiencies is that it is very hard to make the inefficient stuff any cheaper. There's just not any more room for economies of scale, etc
Re:Forget fusion (Score:2)
What can you do now?
Astropower (Score:5, Informative)
FYI, this is already done in a way, as far as Intel helping to build solar panels goes.
Astropower is a US solar panel manufacturer that gets many of its solar cell silicon wafers through recycling programs with Intel. TI, etc. See here. [google.com] They basically take bad/test wafers, clean them up, and use them for silicon solar cells.
I'm building a 100% solar home and already have a kW of capacity installed, and went with Astropower for several reasons, the above included.
Re:Astropower (Score:2)
Crap, they were one of the few US companies really committed to doing solar power right. Guess right != profitable.
Re:Astropower (Score:2)
This is true. It was true during the dot-com boom, and is still true now.
You're not going to see much of a solar 'boom'. Either only the most obsessivly green people and special situations will install them, or everybody will install them when they renovate. Solar equipment suffers in this aspect that the profit/loss is very much calculable. Either it makes sense or it doesn't.
Like what has been said before, if and when it comes down that solar actually saves money, the 'evil capita
Probably doesn't compete well with string ribbon (Score:2)
Recycling bum wafers may be a great way to get more value out of the chip making process. But as a standalone business, buying wafers, turning them into solar cells, and turning the cells into panels, it probably doesn't compete well with Evergreen Solar [evergreensolar.com]'s string ribbon fabrication process.
It might work better if the chip companies did the recycling themselves, and also built panels themselves and/or put standardized cells
Energy Efficiency (Score:5, Informative)
The first order of business for an energy consumer should be to minimize energy consumption. The economics are simple: a reduction in demand will reduce costs.
Many people are shocked when they learn that it's very easy to save $1000 in energy costs a year by spending less than $100 and an hour's worth of time. This guy [geocities.com] and this guy [blogspot.com] seemed to do just about nothing for 50% energy savings.
Even though it's always exciting to look at the state of the art in the energy business, it's more useful (but less exciting) to look at how it impacts you personally.
Re:Energy Efficiency (Score:2)
I'm always suspicious of people who think they're too good for spellcheckers.
Mod this post up [Re: Energy Efficiency] (Score:3, Insightful)
This previous post deserves to be modded up for containing this sentence.
Yes, please consider this advice, fellow geeks: how many monitors are always on even when they're not used for hours? And who pays attention to buying energy-efficient servers? Green PCs with power-saving modes? Recently left on the light when you weren't in the room for hours? Do you drive a car that needs more gas than the state of the ar
Related quote [Re: Energy Efficiency] (Score:2)
People fight over water, food and natural resources.
When our resources get scarce, we go to war over them.
In managing our resources, and in sustainable development,
we plant the seeds of peace.
-- Wangari Maathai (Nobel Peace Price)
Re:Energy Efficiency (Score:3, Insightful)
Even more interesting when you count in the longer vacations in
Re:Energy Efficiency (Score:2)
If you have electric resistance heating, and are using it, then most other changes simply will not have any effect. Any energy wasting appliances will simply cause your heater to turn on less often.
If you have natural gas heating, then by using energy-wasting appliances, you are choosing to use the more expensive electricity for part of your heating i
Turn down the hot water heater (Score:2)
There is a themostat on the hot watter tank.
Why would you want it hotter than you can touch!
If you find the hotwater that comes out for your
taps too hot turn down the heater.
I can't resist (Score:3, Funny)
Intel branded Solar Panels, anyone?
Intel Outside!In This Country We Obey The Laws Of Physics! (Score:2, Insightful)
The problem with solar energy isn't that there isn't enough funding for them, it's that it's a bad way of generating electricity. The maximum efficiency from the current cheap silicon solar cells is about 21% - which isn't all that great. Theoretically you could build solar panels that are even more efficient - perhaps up to 70%.
Which is great, but that doesn't include the costs of transmitting that electricity. Currently electricity isn't stored, it's made as needed. You can't do that with solar. If you
Re:In This Country We Obey The Laws Of Physics! (Score:2)
You forget another big problem - all the unknowledgeable people out there that have instant negative (kneejerk) reactions to anything nuclear. If nuclear
Re:In This Country We Obey The Laws Of Physics! (Score:2)
Philips already does this (Score:4, Interesting)
So, yeah: get with the times, Silicon Valley!
Hrmmm, doesn't sound a good idea (Score:2)
Another area might be monitoring devices. For example, it's an incredible pain in a large house with a lot of occupants to figure out who is usin
While we're at it let's get Novartis into aspirin! (Score:2, Insightful)
Solar is NOT news to Si Vally (Score:3, Informative)
Solar works fine. But you need too much panel area (Score:2)
Silicon Valley has already done its part. Inverters are available for around a dollar a watt, produce good AC waveforms (early units output square waves, causing excessive heating in inductive loads), will synch to and intertie with the power grid, and work reliably.
In California, there are huge tax incentives, the power company has to buy power back from solar installations at retail rates, and
Designed in Deli, made in Taiwan (Score:2)
Re:Designed in Deli, made in Taiwan (Score:2)
... good fit for California? ... (Score:2)
I guess that I don't see how it's such a good fit for Silicon Valley. I'll admit that the area is
How innovation occurs in the Valley (Score:2)
In Silicon Valley, although there are tech giants, it's the startups that are critical to the system. Intel, Apple, et. al. are contin
hard sell (Score:2)
It's doubtful that alternative power systems will attract the venture capital because it doesn't do anything new and exciting. It does something we've always needed in a less expenisive way. There's not much new about solar, fuel cell or power conversion technology. There has not been any sensational breakthru in any of these areas which has attracted the attention of the layperson, venture capitalist or otherwise.
The next big thing will be a surprise. Solar ain't it.
Silicon solar cell technology soon to implode! (Score:2, Interesting)
A better technology has been created. "Solar Fabrics". Several companies are using "Nano-materials" based on titanium-oxide to do "roll to roll" printing of Solar-to-electric energy fabric. Cost is less, is much more rugged ,integrates with buildings better, more usable capture space. Yield not equal to Solar Panels, but it is ne
Who's in charge (Score:2)
If he has a hardon for this, then HE can start his own damned startup. But he needs to stop acting like innovation's traffic cop. I'm already working in Silicon Valley building products that save hundreds of lives every day, and that's not good enough for him?. Screw him!
Solar Cells DO recoup their energy costs! (Score:3, Informative)
As quoted in Home Power Magazine [homepower.com]
Some skeptics of solar energy claim that it takes more energy to make a photovoltaic module (PV) than it can ever produce in its lifetime. The truth is that PVs typically recoup their embodied energy in two to four years. According to an article published by the National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL), today's single and multicrystalline modules have an energy payback of about four years, and thin-film modules about two years. Most PV modules in the field are made from hyper-pure crystalline silicon. Purifying and crystallizing the silicon consumes the most energy in making these PVs. Thin-film PVs are made from considerably less semiconductor material, and therefore have less embodied energy in them. Most of the energy consumed is in the thin-film surface. The aluminum frame on any PV accounts for about six months of its payback time. Solar energy is an amazing technology considering that PVs go on to produce clean, pollution-free energy for at least 25 to 30 years after they have achieved payback.
For more information on energy payback, see the National Renewable Energy Laboratory's Web site (www.nrel.gov) and Karl Knapp & Theresa Jester's article titled "PV Payback"in HP80. --Eric Grisen eric.grisen@homepower.com
Also, concerns about lifetime and hail resistance are red herrings. Most panels are warranted for full rated output for at least 20 years and most have performed well beyond those timeframes. Also all panels are UL tested to meet UL hail resistance specifications (which I believe covers hail up to 2" in diameter).
Finally, no one bitches when a gas-fired generator fails to recoup its energy cost of manufacture--it requires billions of additional therms of natural gas over its operating lifetime to produce electricty and never pays back its manufacturing energy cost. It is disingenuous to ask that only of solar (and odd since solar can actually do it!
Large scale deployment of alternate energy? No. (Score:2, Informative)
The achilles heel of any current alternate energy deployment is the reliance on the grid to act as the "energy backup" when the sun isn't shining or the wind isn't blowing. Unfortunately, we don't have a two way grid; nor is it smart enough to safely handle multiple energy sources being fed up into it from unplanned nodes (like your house for example). The current solar and wind systems out there can get away with it because there aren't many of them. Having to bring up "peaker" pow
Re:Takes more energy to produce than you get back (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Takes more energy to produce than you get back (Score:3, Insightful)
Which is why it's already in heavy use in places where the load is small (road signs, yard lights, emergency phones) the location is remote (rural areas) or sometimes where solar is more reliable than the grid (areas far from the primary generation with heavy weather causing frequent line damage).
It costs an ENORMOUS amount to run power even a fraction of a mile, let alone tens of miles, for a new hookup in an area not
Re:Solar Power not my future... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Solar Power not my future... (Score:2)
Living in a place that's cloudy most of the year means that the savings on your power bill might not catch up to the installation price before you want/need to move, or perhaps in your lifetime.
Re:Solar Power not my future... (Score:2)
Solar Power in my Michigan future (Score:3, Interesting)
Just because you're not getting a lot of sunlight, the fact that there is ambient light coming through the clouds still does generate some power. It may be reduced, but it is still there. If you read the related article Hacking Your Way Off The Utility Grid [oreillynet.com] he approaches it from a reducing his expenditures on power, and providing a cushion for any future price increases.
Additionally, dependin
Speaking of efficiency... (Score:2)
Where all the devices then proceed to convert AC into DC?
I know there would be issues with voltages/amps/watts, but wouldnt it be better to bypass all that heat generation ( unless it can be harnessed ) and go direct DC? Store excess in batteries?
And isnt that the full circle? Edison's wish was for the power to be provided DC, not AC.
Re:Speaking of efficiency... (Score:2)
Re:Speaking of efficiency... (Score:2)
I understand that for transporting electrical energy for distances, AC is by far the way to go. But from the roof of the house to the inside?
Just asking the question.
Re:Silcon Valley Arrogance? (Score:3, Informative)
Using these wonderful cells to power fluorescent lamps, set up the lamps to shine on the cells. Electricity out, no power in. Perpetual motion!
Near breakeven now. (Score:2)
The issue with solar versus grid is cost/performance.
Solar power has already surpassed transmitted power infor numerous applications: Small loads alongside roads, new instalations in rural housing, etc. The infrastructure is in place for building and installi
Keep them (Score:2)
In fact, it may even be the case that they will be able to contribute in this industry. (Disclaimer, IANAEE, I don't know how much of this would really be a good idea). They could develop embedded software into the solar panel system to make it more intelligent. The panels could be made to tilt as the day passes, it could try to predict what the demand will be and determine what to do with excess energy (stor
Re:Nor Intel or Solar Power will solve the problem (Score:3, Informative)
Also, the payback myth is just that - a myth:
http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_solar
I have 6kw on top of my house, and I expect they will probably be working even after I'm gone. I'm only 34 now.
It also sells electricity back to the grid during peak consumption times. Perfect.
Re:What's with the moderators today? (Score:3, Interesting)
I tried to post the following ideas in a slightly different format as a story, but it was rejected. Perhaps it'll do better here:
Moderation is anonymous
I say this is a Very Bad Thing. You can compare this to Kuro5hin, where you can easily see who did what to whom. Moderation with accountability allows anyone to see when a vendetta is being pursued, or when