Lying Makes The Brain Work Harder 364
Ant writes "This Wired News article says it seems to take more brain effort to tell a lie than to tell the truth according to functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) scans. Lying caused activity in the frontal part of the brain -- the medial inferior and pre-central areas, as well as the hippocampus and middle temporal regions and the limbic areas. Some of these are involved in emotional responses. During a truthful response, the fMRI showed activation of parts of the brain's frontal lobe, temporal lobe and cingulate gyrus."
Err, of course? (Score:2, Insightful)
On the contrary (Score:2)
You sez:
"It seems like it'd require more effort to
fabricate something than to recite truthful
memories"
Well
It doesn't take a lot to say "I am lying"
Am I fabricating anything ?
Or am I telling the truth ?
Re:On the contrary (Score:5, Insightful)
Keep in mind that when you lie, your brain will be more active, weighing the impact the deception might/would have regarding other memories and any possible future situations involved with those memories.
I'm going to go out on a limb and attempt some sort of comparison...
when you tell the truth, it's almost like the answer is cached, no thought is really required other than recalling that direct memory which holds the data.
when you attempt to deceive, the answer is no longer cached; the brain must actively retrieve the data and then worry about dependencies, children, etc.
It's no surprise that to lie or deceive requires more brain power than simply reciting truth.
Duh.
Re:On the contrary (Score:5, Insightful)
All that can be true when you tell the truth too. For instance, imagine your wife asking "Are you cheating on me?"
You're starting with the assumption that the truth can't hurt, and that assumption seems quite obviously false.
Re:On the contrary (Score:3, Interesting)
Partying used to be such an adventure
Re:On the contrary (Score:3, Informative)
Re:On the contrary (Score:5, Interesting)
You don't actually have to believe it. You just have to have previously constructed the memory in your mind. People react differently when remembering things than they do when creatively "making something up." A common tell is when people glance up and to the left while speaking. This is a common indicator of creative thought. A good liar will have rehearsed or fantasized a lie in their head. When asked about it, they remember what they rehearsed, rather than creating it on the spot. Especially talented liars base their lies upon a true experience to prevent details from tripping them up. This way they do not have to think up anything on the fly.
I'd be very curious to see what is shown in these scans when a well trained professional is put to the test. I suspect they are just detecting how creative thought differs from memory retrieval and that classic lying techniques will fool this new method as well.
Re:On the contrary (Score:3, Insightful)
It seems likely that recall of action versus observation would have at least as much impact as lying versus truth-telling. To be good science, the study would have to be repeated with just the people who fired the gun or with ju
Re:On the contrary (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Err, of course? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Err, of course? (Score:5, Funny)
Says the guy who went by a pseudonym.
Thinking (Score:4, Interesting)
Pretty simple concept IMHO.
Re:Thinking (Score:5, Interesting)
And where the problems will arise are with those people who can lie. After all a lie is only a lie if the person telling the lie thinks it is. When the person thinks they are telling the truth then the lie is not a lie anymore. Its all relative!
Where I see serious problems with this is when people use it to test for terrorists. They will only catch those people who cannot lie. Those that can lie will pass through with flying colors and bomb everything. Great, I can see the excuses now, "But he was telling the truth..."
I wish there would be a little less technology and more reliance on common sense!
Then you must... (Score:5, Insightful)
Keep your lies consistent too.
Re:Then you must... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Then you must... (Score:5, Informative)
No. This is emphatically not true. Psychological research over the last has shown that memories can be equally realistic whether or not the events "remembered" actually happened. An event does not have to have occurred for you to remember it in exactly as if it had; the brain makes no distinction.
Furthermore researchers have demonstrated that it's remarkably easy to train people to remember events that didn't actually happen. You start with a plausible nugget, and then flesh in through repetition a few specific (but fake) details. These details are the key. The brain of the typical research subject fills in the rest every time he/she reminisces on the (phony) memory with the researcher.
For example, "what color were the tiles in your grandparent's house?" When your grandparents didn't have tiles in their house. The build on that to invent a story about some event that happened at your grandparents house...etc. It doesn't take very long to develop very complex, very vivid memories of very "important" events that never actually happened.
This is a major ethical issue for the likes of psychiatrists and criminal investigators, as prompting or leading someone can produce traumatic childhood "recovered" memories or eyewitness accounts that are entirely false.
Re:Then you must... (Score:5, Insightful)
It is not possible to catch intelligent liars using machine detection. This is the crux of my problem with the use of technology to catch criminals.
Re:Then you must... (Score:4, Interesting)
Your second paragraph is questionable, though. The machine detection does not measure believeability of the lies, rather it measures physical responses. Being intelligent is useless if you start shaking when you tell the lies. I am not saying that there are no people who could escape detection, but it's a different issue altogether.
Re:Then you must... (Score:4, Interesting)
In the UK you have to tell the appropriate authorities if you dig up human remains and the police got interested because this bog was only a few hundred yards from a house where a woman had mysteriously disappeared about 20 years before. The police had always suspected the husband, but he had always claimed innocence.
The police went back to him and told him that they had found remains and the guy cracked. He confessed to them how he had killed his wife and dumped her body in the bog.
Several months later, the archaeologist got his results back from the lab proving that the skeleton was Iron Age.
Ooops.
Re:Then you must... (Score:4, Interesting)
just enough details to be believable
I mentioned this in another post, but it bears repeating. A well trained liar does not make up a story from scratch with a certain level of detail. This is a good way to get caught as an unexpected question about a detail may indicate that you are lying. It is best to base your story on a previous experience, even one unrelated to the story. Ideally you should base it on something similar to what you want the interrogator to believe. If you want to lie and say you did not shoot someone when you did, talk about a night two weeks previous to the night in question but with the differences you want to incorporate rehearsed in your mind. By blending a real experience with fiction, inconsequential details are just memories of that real experience, and do not require any creativity. When you say you were at home with a good book, you can easily describe what you were reading about, wearing, eating, etc.
Re:Then you must... (Score:5, Insightful)
Lying is just another form of information processing. I'd guess that an accomplished liar -- a master liar if you will, is going to have a number of well learned strategies for deception, and thus work much less hard than a truthful person.
Of course, very few people are wholly truthful. I wouldn't be surprised if each person were a master liar in some topical area, such as why my term paper is late.
Obligitory Star Trek Quote (Score:5, Insightful)
Keep your lies consistent too.
I thought this reminded me of something, along with a quick Google search here it is:
(Bashir tells the story of the boy who cried "Wolf")
Bashir: If you lie all the time, no one is going to believe you, even when you're telling the truth.
Garak: Are you sure that's the point, Doctor?
Bashir: Of course. What else would it be?
Garak: That you should never tell the same lie twice.
You're fired (Score:4, Funny)
You're fired.
And these are not the droids I'm looking for.
Move along. Move along.
.
Re:Thinking (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't forget the hippocampus! (Score:5, Informative)
Not to mention those involved in sequence completion (hippocampus [virginia.edu]) and configural learning (hippocampus [newscientist.com]). Configural learning has some similarities to what-if scenarios, as does sequence completion. Naturally, this is why the hippocampus is good at both.
And yes, I am a huge fan of the hippocampus.
Re:Thinking (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Thinking (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Thinking (Score:2)
BTW the easiest way to fool the lie detector is to make something moderately painful to yourself.
Bite your tongue, press your fingernail into your palm.
I wonder whether the modern EEG devices can distinguish one from another.
Pants of fire (Score:5, Funny)
Yes. (Score:5, Funny)
BBC Address (Score:3, Informative)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4051211.stm [bbc.co.uk]
Useless against /. Folk (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Ok then (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Ok then (Score:2)
Re:Ok then (Score:2)
Didn't they take the Lying Module? (Score:2, Insightful)
Yes, terrorists aren't trained at lying, only FBI agents are.
Ah finally an explanation... (Score:4, Funny)
- I run a 40-yard dash in 2 seconds
- I compleded college by the age of 18
- I have climbed the Everest - naked
- I became Mr Universe AND Miss Universe, in the same year
Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)
Univerersally applied? (Score:3, Interesting)
That is, if someone wants me to recall a fact from highschool biology, I can probably work hard to remember it. However, I could probably work a lot easier and just make something up.
This sort of thing has happened to me before. My parents once gave my sister and I a math problem, some multiplication of two large numbers. Much to my chagrin, my sister came up an answer the fastest, to which my parents replied "Wow! That's right!" I worked so quickly to try to come up with the right answer, and I fumed about her getting it right until I realized that she had just made up a number...my parents really didn't know the answer either, but by acting confidently like they did, I couldn't see the lies until a minute later.
I'm quite certain that my brain was working a lot harder to do the multiplication than my sister's, which had only to pull a reasonable-sounding number from thin air.
Beavis... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Beavis... (Score:2)
That one was a classic, thanks for reminding me...
"So that's how the machine works. Do you understand?"
"Uh... yes." *BZZZT*
"Ok, just say something, anything, just so we can test it."
"Uh, I killed a bunch of people once. Heheh." *PING*
(paraphrased)
Working hard (Score:2)
Well, DUH (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Well, DUH (Score:2)
Re:Well, DUH (Score:2)
Re:Well, DUH (Score:2)
The point isn't that MRI tells you lying is harder than telling the truth, the point is that lying is measurably harder than telling the truth. The MRI can measure for a specific person saying a specific thing if they are lying.
Re:Well, DUH (Score:3, Insightful)
I agree, but I don't think your subject line is a very fair one, unless you're aiming it at the journalist instead of the scientists. Otherwise it sounds as if you're bashing the scientists for doing this properly and making sure that it's correct.
It's likely quite intuitive to most people, including psychologists, that lying takes more effort. The problem is that intuition isn't good enough for science. This is an actual study that scientifically demonstrates that it takes more effort to lie. It
Speaking of lying... (Score:4, Funny)
MS's "Get the Facts"
http://m3.doubleclick.net/790463/mrs03111_VeriTes
Oh the irony!
Maybe that content-based advertising system really does work!
There's a reason (Score:2)
Hmm... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Hmm... (Score:2)
Doh (Score:2)
I was halfway through writing an email to my boss with the subject "Siesta" before I read the second line and slapped my forehead.
How is this news? (Score:2)
What's harder to do? Sing a song you already know, or make up a new one?
You don't say? (Score:3, Insightful)
Good to see it confirmed, I guess, and I do believe in pure research for research's sake, but even I am moved to say "well, duh!".
OVERKILL (Score:2)
So that's why... (Score:2)
Re:So that's why... (Score:2)
Makes Sense (Score:5, Insightful)
- dshaw
Laid (Score:3, Funny)
whew. I'm pooped.
Great! (Score:2)
I'd be interested... (Score:5, Interesting)
It could be quite pertinent to find out if this were ever to be used seriously as a truth detection mechanism, as it could trip up in some situations, such as for instance a man who's just killed his wife, sitting in his car thinking to himself all the things he did today not killing his wife, essentially fabricating a story or lying to himself. When brought in for a lie detector test you really wouldn't want it showing that a murderer could indeed lie about comitting such an act without any sign showing that he was indeed lying. Of course, this method would be quite useless for questions which the subject hasn't had ample time to manufacture the truth for.
Re:I'd be interested... (Score:5, Interesting)
When the subject is asked questions about the story, the subject will honestly answer with what s/he believes to be the truth.
"Yes, sir, there were definitely Iraqis among the 9-11 terrorists!"
so...brain go overdrive or shutdown for saying (Score:2)
???
Dub'ya (Score:3, Funny)
Doctor: Ok, put the probes on the president, Norma.
Norma: They are on, sir.
Doctor:
Norma: Yes sir, they're on tight.
Doctor: Mr. Bush, can you please tell us why we are at war with Iraq.
Dub'ya: They are a terrorist harboring nation with weapons of mass destruction! Yeehaw!
Doctor: Norma, can you turn down the sensor sensitivity, please? My reader just crashed.
Dub'ya: Yee-haw!!
Believing the lie (Score:2)
Lie Detectors (Score:2)
Skinny girls... don't trust em' (Score:2)
You can tell an honest girl by how fat she is.
Any else seen Cypher? (Score:2)
Re: WSoP... (Score:2)
So.... (Score:2, Interesting)
Since it takes more "brain power" to lie then does that mean that smart people are better liars?
Nik
Re:So.... (Score:2)
The quote at the bottom of the page: (Score:2, Funny)
"One man tells a falsehood, a hundred repeat it as true."
It's soo true! I do *ALL* the damn work around here.
One reason lying works the brain harder (Score:3, Interesting)
"Liars have alot to remember."
-- an unknown but astute source
Things to ponder (Score:4, Insightful)
Also, I wonder what differences would be observed if you tested somebody who is more used to lying in a convincing manner, such as a a politician or undercover cop.
Re:Things to ponder (Score:3, Informative)
Well, it can't be much worse [antipolygraph.org]...
Of course, at the moment functional MRI requires a lot of very expensive, specialized equipment. The scanner itself will run you two or three million dollars, and it will probably set you back a thousand dollars an hour or so for time on it.
This study is flawed (Score:5, Informative)
This experiment isn't symmetric - the conditions for each group are entirely different. A proper experiment would consist of:
1. a group who committed the act and lies
2. a group who committed the act and tells the truth
3. a group who witnesses and lies
4. a group who witnesses and tells the truth
Also, they should probably have a control group of people who didn't witness anything.
I can see it now (Score:4, Funny)
S: "Sweet!"
R: "Just lie down under this scanner..."
S: "Is this gonna give me cancer?"
R: "No no, it's perfectly safe. Just a moment... ok, main screen turn on."
S: "Can I go now?"
R: "No, first you have to tell me who fired the gun"
S: "What gun?"
R: "The gun that was fired about 10 minutes ago"
S: "But I only just got here!"
R: "Is that so... where were you 10 minutes ago?"
S: "I was on Slashdot!"
R: "You're lying!"
FBI busts down the door, carts the test subject off to Cuba. Another day, another victory in the War On Terror.
Re:This study is flawed (Score:2)
If you are *asked* to say you didn't shoot a toy gun, it doesn't take any significant mental effort to figure out what to say. There is no guilt, or stress in order to sound convincing. You simply recite what you were told to say.
Compulsive liars? (Score:4, Interesting)
I wonder... (Score:2)
I wonder how hard they had to think to bring us this lie?
Ah, good ol' "Waste of Ressources Labs" (Score:2)
Because, MRIs are fun, but no one should need that much tech to come to the conclusion that "making something up based of recollections and saying it" takes more brain power than "just saying it".
Also useless, making a study about how gummy bears pick up dirt when dropped on the floor (really, sticky stuff picks up dirt when dropped on floor? amazing, please tell me more).
Digging up corpses from the first
That's OK... (Score:2)
/. cookie is right (Score:2)
One man tells a falsehood, a hundred repeat it as true.
Does it mean that the article is B/S or what?
Good, They need something better than polygraphs (Score:2, Insightful)
Eerie (Score:2)
Telling the truth is hard (Score:5, Interesting)
The problem lies in editing. For any complex situation, there are several truths that can be said, some relevant, and some not. You have to decide what your questioner really wants to know and think about that stuff.
You also have to turn that stuff into a coherent sentence. In my case, my mind generally works in a very fuzzy way. I don't really categorize things until someone asks me a question, so It is hard to untangle the fuzz and put it in a nice, complete package.
The final problem with telling the truth is the spin. You have to describe things in such a way that you look good and can't get trapped. Like the old "does this dress make me look fat?"-type questions, or pretty much anything you say to your boss.
With lies, these problems kind of solve themselves. When you make up a lie, you build in the spin and story from the start.
I'm not so sure... (Score:4, Interesting)
So... (Score:4, Funny)
No way! (Score:3, Interesting)
As a corollary to lying and brian measurements... (Score:3, Interesting)
They strapped a suspect in a chair and showed them a carefully laid out sequence of images on a TV screen, some benign images (like bowls of ice cream or a beachball) but some are details about the crime (if murder, show police photos of the corpse, or show some evidence left behind like a scarf or jewelry that the victim didn't own, or possible accomplises already linked to the crime). While this went on, the scientists measured brain activity and they could tell when a suspect "remembers" pictures, the parts of the brain fire off and the scientists can see it. When the suspects brain indicates it remembers and it's on a crime photo, they can reasonably presume the suspect had something to do with it.
Of course this has limitations, like what if the suspect was under the influence of something, or the materials about the crime aren't effective enough, but it's much harder to fool your brain.
Surprised (Score:4, Funny)
This explains... (Score:3, Funny)
At first, I thought it was due to exceptionally high intelligence. Now we know "the rest of the story."
Dr. Tim
only for beginners (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Ok, we knew this (Score:4, Informative)
Re:No shit (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:No shit (Score:2)
But what if you plan your lie ahead of time, convincing yourself (somewhat) that it's the truth. You wouldn't have to think too hard if you have the lie memorized.
Re:No shit (Score:2)
Yes, but if you "plan your lie" before they test you, you don't have to do any thinking during the test.
Re:No shit (Score:5, Funny)
You've never worked with sales people, have you?
That's why they are working SO HARD ! (Score:2)
On the other hand - we must be very lazy bums !