New Hominid Species Unearthed in Indonesia 588
Radical Rad writes "ABC News is reporting that anthropologists have found the skeletal remains of seven hobbit sized hominids. The population may have been wiped out by a volcanic activity 12000 years ago or according to local legend may have lived up until the 1500's living on in caves and eating food the villagers would leave out for them. Also found were bones of giant lizards and miniature elephants. CBS
also has the story." National Geographic and the BBC have good stories.
New species explaination (Score:4, Interesting)
However, if they were smart enough to find a way to this island, couldn't they just do another island-hoping to a bigger island like Sumantra, or even Australia?
The article also mentioned "many anthropologists have argued that in recent years, scientists have been adding too many new species to the human evolutionary tree. They say scientists have become too quick to call what may simply be an unusual individual a member of a whole new species."
Maybe these tiny people have some kind of sickness (or just look tiny), and were therefore exiled from the main(is)land?
Re:New species explaination (Score:5, Funny)
Sure, they had one guy who could make a lot of crap out of coconuts, and they always had some celebrity guests drop in for some wacky hijinks, but they never could quite get off that island. Tragic story, really.
Re:New species explaination (Score:3, Funny)
Maybe they just represent the Lollypop Guild.
Wrong Movie... (Score:5, Funny)
I've got a perfect puzzle for you
Oompa loompa doompety dee
If you are wise you'll listen to me
Oompa loompa doompety da
If you're not greedy, you will go far
You will live in happiness too
Like the Oompa Loompa Doompety do
Doompety do
*Ahem* (Score:3, Funny)
"Grunka Lunka Dunkity Dingredient, you should not ask about the secret ingredient."
Re:Wrong Movie... (Score:4, Funny)
Life isnt fair its sad but its true
Chumba Womba, Gobaldie Gee
When your poor legs are stiff as a tree
What do you do when your stuck in a chair?
Finding it hard to go up and down stairs?
What do you think of the one you call god?
Isn't his absence slightly odd?
Maybe he's forgotten you.
Chumba Womba, Gobaldie Gorse
Count yourself lucky your not a horse
They would turn you into dog food
Or to Chumba Womba
Gobaldie
Glue
Gobaldie Goo
Re:New species explaination (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, maybe they did...but that doesn't debunk the theory. Europeans found their way to the Americas, but there are still Europeans in Europe.
Re:New species explaination (Score:5, Funny)
Other than that, it's a lovely place to visit.
Re:New species explaination (Score:4, Funny)
May be after all this some of them realised what the had become and came back to their little island, to enjoy their little lifes and not bother anyone else...and there we found them.
Re:New species explaination (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:New species explaination (Score:4, Funny)
Re:New species explaination (Score:5, Insightful)
And this sickness also made their arms proportionately longer, created more prominent bone ridges above their eyes, gave them a sharply sloping forehead, and no chin? And it affected at least seven known individuals in the same way over a span of 30,000 of years, with no known fossil evidence of any "normal" hominids co-existing on the same island in that time?
Riiiight...
Re:New species explaination (Score:3, Interesting)
There have been cases when a special kind of individuals have been exiled, or killed, even because of their sex. You talk about the improbability for a malformation of the same kind in many individuals. Down's syndrome, for example, is a malformation that looks similar in every individual that has it, and it has morphological particularities, too.
Re:New species explaination (Score:3, Informative)
Re:New species explaination (Score:3, Interesting)
From that chapter:
"This article includes observations informed by personal experiences of both practicing sociology in exile and studying an exilic community. Since 1991, I have been involved in fieldwork research in North America and Europe among Iranian exiles. "
You're trying to apply contemporary human sociology to a society that is at least 18000 years old... and possibly not human?
Riiight...
Re:New species explaination (Score:3, Insightful)
Inbreeding is not a cause of mutations. Inbreeding merely reduces diversity within the gene pool. A small population with uniform selective pressure exerted on it might also exhibit more rapid genetic drift toward a new norm.
Re:New species explaination (Score:5, Interesting)
That's the argument used for living in extreme cold. We were told that ethnic cultures such as the Zulu's were tall because that was the best way to radiate heat (taller == more elongated == more surface area/volume), and that the Innuit were short and round due to the extreme cold (shorter == more spherical == less surface area/volume).
For reptiles, warmer temperatures usually leads to larger body sizes, while colder temperatures leads to smaller sizes.
So, maybe the climate went the other way, and everything became colder?
It has to do with humidity, not heat. (Score:5, Insightful)
In areas where the humidity is lower, being taller is a great way to help get rid of excess heat.
However that may not be what's going on on this island at all.
The other lifeforms are textbook examples of foster's rule in action. Foster's rule is the maxim that states that creatures isolated on a small island will experiece dramatic changes in size (or die, adapt or die).
So, for instance, the pygmy elephants got smaller than the elephants they started as because there simply wouldn't have been enough vegatation on the island to support them otherwise. There was EXTREME selective pressure to get smaller, so it happened fast.
Meanwhile, because nothing was around to eat these pygmy elephants, those komodo dragons that were born larger than the others were significantly more fit becuase they might be able to exploit the elephants as a food source (which they did -- they sustained themselves on the elephants until they went extinct, at which time humans brought deer to the islands thus providing them with a new food source).
One creature had selective pressure to get bigger, another to get smaller. In *general*, Foster's rule is that things will get smaller. But occasionally (such as in the example above), the rule can work in reverse.
Re:It has to do with humidity, not heat. (Score:3, Insightful)
This sounds dubious. I'd argue in favor of nutrition.
Different tribes may have different diets which could account for the growth differential.
Look at Japan. The older ge
evolutionary pressure (Score:5, Funny)
Re:evolutionary pressure (Score:3, Informative)
In this Washington Post Writeup" [washingtonpost.com], they clearly refer to the "island rule: animals smaller than rabbits get larger; animals larger than rabbits get smaller."
Re:evolutionary pressure (Score:5, Funny)
What about rabbits? What size do they become?
Re:evolutionary pressure (Score:5, Funny)
Re:evolutionary pressure (Score:5, Informative)
In short, it dictates that animals coming from a continent that are large, will get smaller when isolated on an island -- animals that are small, will tend to get larger.
Hobbit Sized (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Hobbit Sized (Score:5, Funny)
What about the '90s?
Re:Hobbit Sized (Score:5, Funny)
Hobbits in Indonesia (Score:4, Interesting)
So if we follow the map [uni-bremen.de] (assuming sea level has risen since Middle Earth days), mountain chain, south to Rohan, East, that would put Mordor right ... about ... Here [backpack-newzealand.com].
I thought Rohan/Gondor west of Ithilien river looked a lot like Australia. Now we know.
The questions on everybody's mind: (Score:5, Funny)
2. Would they make good slaves?
Re:The questions on everybody's mind: (Score:5, Funny)
We IT folk have enough competition as it is!
Re:The questions on everybody's mind: (Score:5, Funny)
That's tender young juicy Hobbit meat you are talking about.
Slave, feh. I've been stuck in this cave for three lousy years with nothing but maggoty meat to eat and you want Slaves?
Re:The questions on everybody's mind: (Score:5, Funny)
Re:The questions on everybody's mind: (Score:4, Funny)
I don't know, but Michael Jackson wants to find out.
This is so stupid (Score:5, Funny)
jeez.
Re:This is so stupid (Score:3, Informative)
To be precise, on Sunday, October 23, 4004 BC, at 9:00 AM [wikipedia.org].
Re:This is so stupid (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:This is so stupid (Score:3, Funny)
Re: This is so stupid (Score:3, Insightful)
> Yes. And there are also modern humans who still think that humans descended from apes.
Humans are apes. Unless your parents aren't human, you did descend from apes.
Re:Not to state the obvious or anything... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Not to state the obvious or anything... (Score:5, Funny)
You're right! (Score:3, Insightful)
Spoiler Warning (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Spoiler Warning (Score:3, Informative)
The Grey Havens is the name of the elvish port where Frodo, Bilbo, Gandalf and a contingent of elves left FROM when they departed middle earth in search of Aman http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aman [wikipedia.org], the land of the Valar, across the great western sea.
Re:Spoiler Warning (Score:4, Insightful)
So, does Ludicrously Literal Rationalization beat Tolkien Minutia? Let's ask whoever issues the geek cards...
Hobbit-sized and volcano eh? (Score:2, Funny)
WOW!! (Score:2, Funny)
Re:WOW!! (Score:2)
Re:WOW!! (Score:3, Funny)
Oh my God...Tolkien outsources too?
Hobbit sized? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Hobbit sized? (Score:2)
Re:Hobbit sized? (Score:5, Funny)
But the real question is ... (Score:2)
Must be careful (Score:2)
If they find any with a ring on their finger, they need to find that volcano and toss the ring in pronto.
Interaction with Modern Humans (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Interaction with Modern Humans (Score:4, Interesting)
These newly-discovered "hobbitt-sized people" may well be no more than a sort of local pygmy tribe, now extinct.
OTOH, it's perfectly possible that remnants of genetic side-branches of Homo Whatever persisted into historical times, if sufficiently isolated and protected by their local environment.
Size is no indication of being a different species; hell, look at dogs, which even among wild species range from 25 to 100 lbs. A closed environment can select for even larger extremes; also, note the radically different brain size among different breeds of domestic dogs, even tho they are all the same species.
Re:Interaction with Modern Humans (Score:4, Interesting)
Point being, you can't judge by appearance at that level. Now, if they had DNA evidence to back up their speculation about these people being a different species... that would mean something.
## Selection for proportions can be done in just a couple generations in dogs**. Humans aren't that much more complex, and human mating behaviour tends toward selecting the familiar (ie. someone who looks at least sortof like your own tribe). Types do develop and breed true in humans, if sufficiently isolated by geography and/or tribal behaviour. -- I've heard how some Orientals can peg another Oriental by physical type right down to their native village and even family, because the local types are so consistent. [I can do the same with some bloodlines in dogs.]
(**Something I'm intimately aware of, as a professional dog breeder/trainer with 11 generations of my own bloodline, and 35 years experience.)
Great, now you've made me do nested footnotes
Re:Interaction with Modern Humans (Score:5, Informative)
Looking at Hominid species and their brain sizes [talkorigins.org], and the actual information about the fossils themselves [talkorigins.org], you can examine the differences.
While the smallest of the small modern human overlaps with non-pygmy H. erectus, as written here [talkorigins.org]: "The low volume skulls were not primitive or aberrant in any way; their small volume was merely a result of the smallness of the entire skull. So although the extreme lower range of modern human brain sizes does overlap that of Homo erectus, their skulls are very different: in H. erectus, the brain case really is smaller in relation to the rest of the skull. In small modern humans, the skull proportions are normal and the brain size is small only because the skull is small." When you compare the two [talkorigins.org], (another example here [talkorigins.org], or look at a comparison of multiple Hominids here [talkorigins.org]) you can see that H. erectus isn't ever going to be mistaken for a small-skulled H. sapiens. The pygmy H. erectus has a brain that's half the size of a regular H. erectus. Floresiensis is smart and a tool/ fire user because Homo had been doing that for 2 million years, not because its a Homo sapiens.
Summarizing species and brain sizes...
1. Last common ancestor (Gorilla, Pan, Hominid)
modern Gorilla (average 500 cc)
2. Last common ancestor (Pan, Hominid)
modern Chimp (average 400 cc)
3. Australopithecus
(375 to 550 cc)
4. Homo habilis
(500 to 800 cc)
5. Homo erectus-> ->5a.Homo floresiensis
(750 to 1225 cc) (380 cc)
6.Homo antecessor
| \ 6b. H.s. neanderthalensis (average 1450 cc)
|
6a. H. s. archaic
(average 1200 cc)
(sometimes called H. heidelbergensis)
|
7. Homo sapiens sapiens
(average 1350 cc)
No no no, (Score:2, Funny)
Hmm... (Score:5, Funny)
Wow..Real beings (Score:2)
Not too surprising (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Not too surprising (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Not too surprising (Score:4, Informative)
In reference to the wolf [swipnet.se]
The differences in size within the species is quite considerable. The biggest is the American timber wolf which grows to a height of over 90 cm, and can weigh up to 80 kg. The Fenno-scandinavian wolf is of average size, height 70 cm and weighs 40 - 50 kg (the record for Sweden was a male wolf that weighed in at 75 kg). They are a little smaller in the south of Europe, weighing about 25 kg.
Re:Not too surprising (Score:5, Insightful)
Er, sorry, no. Dogs are the product of natural evolution, which includes human breeding programs. In other words, dogs as a species changed in various ways affected by their living in proximity to, and interacting with, humans. This is no less "natural" than, say, predators and prey developing different ways to catch/evade each other, or symbiotic species developing a dependence on each other. The idea that "nature" somehow stops once you get to humans, and everything we do is its own separate domain, is misleading.
Re:Not too surprising (Score:3, Interesting)
I know what he meant. And I'm saying that the distinction between natural and artificial selection is specious.
This situation is fundimentally different from the evolution of dogs because there was no 3rd party species to artificially select for traits in humans.
Humans didn't evolve in a vacuum. We are what we are today because of the ways in which our ancestors were affecte
Re:Not too surprising (Score:3, Interesting)
In a related find (Score:5, Funny)
"Antropologists are perplexed as to how a ring found it's way into the hands of a species lacking basic metallurgy or fire. One scientist was quoted as saying 'The precious, er I mean artifact, is a remarkable lovely find. So bright, so beautiful...' He was later heard to remark 'mine, mine, get away!! Filthy little grad students!!'"
Peter Jackson was not available for comment.
Hmm (Score:4, Interesting)
The Tropi! (Score:2)
The Tropi...Was It Human?...Animal?...Or The Living Descendant Of The Missing Link!
Seven short guys (Score:5, Funny)
hmmmm (Score:2, Funny)
Well, I suppose.... since they didn't have brazilian waxes back then...
small brains (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:small brains (Score:5, Funny)
Yes, yes, we've all seen managers too.
Chris Mattern
Remake anyone? (Score:3, Funny)
Okay, maybe I'm all alone on this...
In Other News... (Score:5, Funny)
The reason they died out. (Score:5, Funny)
Super Volcano? (Score:4, Interesting)
New Hominid species of diminutive size found... (Score:4, Funny)
Menehune (Score:5, Interesting)
Oh my god (Score:4, Funny)
They could FLY!?
little walls, little bridges (Score:5, Interesting)
These are clearly not hobbits (Score:5, Funny)
try sleepy, bashful, dopey, sneezy...
Keep digging, you'll pull up a hot brunette.
Ahoy! (Score:5, Informative)
More information on these hobbit-sized wonders can be found at Scientific American which runs a Q&A with Dr. Brown [sciam.com]. As expected, it's a bit more in-depth than "Hobbits Found!"
one specimen (Score:4, Interesting)
i'm no paleontologist (and i don't play one on tv, either) so i don't know exactly how well you can really extrapolate a whole species' traits from one specimen. do you know, for instance, that it's genetically "normal" for its species? was it typical of the nutritional, physical, and in the case of hominids, social environment?
for instance, what would be the inference if a future archaeologist found the skeletal remains of the following: someone born with Down Syndrome, someone with Marfan Syndrome, and someone with one of the 522 different types of dwarfism [dwarfism.org] - skeletons or models of which can typically be found in better natural history and science museums around the world.
where, for instance, are Lucy's kin? and she's the basis for whole shelves of books on human evolution.
Bayan Kara-Ula - Dropa and the Han (Score:5, Interesting)
They Featured in Legends (Score:4, Interesting)
First, this would be the first case of modern humans having even psuedo-recorded contact with another intelligent species.
Second, this rips back open the possibility of our faerie tales being more true than most of us would have expected.
Wha? (Score:3, Funny)
So they were pets, huh?
tired of quack science (Score:4, Insightful)
They say that they're 'surprised' that despite the small brain size, they appeared to be quite smart. This is contrary to what we know: brain size seems to have little correlation with intelligence amongst modern humans that are not defective, and there's strong fossil evidence for ancestoral species having fairly large brains as well.
Also, there's no accounting for the construction of the pyramids with modern man's intelligence/knowledge, so there must've been smart humans at that time as well. Maybe not technologically advanced as we'd see things, but certainly inventive and observant of the world around them.
It also sounds nuts to me that they'd claim this is an entirely different species. It seems to me that it's just as much a seperate species as blacks are a different species than whites, or what have you. They're still fundamentally human, and can co-populate with other humans. Granted, there's no direct evidence that this was possible, but it seems possible. There are plenty of 4-foot-tall humans today.
Re:tired of quack science (Score:3, Insightful)
WTF? Pyramids were built no more than 5000 years ago, and the people who did were definitely the same as we still are and just as smart. Now, if you can find me a pyramid built by non-homo sapiens sapiens hominid, that's certaily big news...
It also sounds nuts to me that they'd claim this is an entirely different species.
And what reasons you
Re:Sheesh... Another Pyramidiot (Score:3, Informative)
- It's composed of over 2 million blocks of stone, over 2 tons each. Many of them are over 20,000 tons - all this despite the fact that there is no substantial amount of stone or anywhere to quary it from for over 100 miles. Keep in mind that our best cranes today can lift a mere 3,000 tons.
- It was 481 ft high at the time
How will this affect the election? (Score:4, Funny)
See, Bush wins.
Flores is a big Island (Score:5, Informative)
So either it is another island they are talking about (possibly in the vicinity of Flores) or their 31sq km figure should read 31 thousand sq km (not likely given the importance of the small size of the island that explains their evolution to a small skeleton).
You can see a detailed map or the archipelago here:
http://www.sel.barc.usda.gov/scalenet/images/indoFlores is approximately at 9S 122E
It reminds me.. (Score:3, Interesting)
The fascinating history of H.P. Blavatsky 'The People of Blue Mountains [katinkahesselink.net]'.
Probably those small people of Indonesia had also his own myths about why and how the were there.
Cryptozoology (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Frodo (Score:2)
Re:Frodo (Score:4, Insightful)
Hobbits, are you crazy? Someone has clearly been reading too much Tolkein. Read the article: they were found in CAVES. So obviously, we're not dealing with hobbits, but dwarves.
Re:Frodo (Score:5, Funny)
Re:non-human? (Score:5, Informative)
How can these researchers say for certain that these remains are of anything other than humans?
The skulls are not similar to modern humans, but are similar to Homo Erectus, from which these creatures are thought to descend.
It is more probable that these remains represent a small group of homo sapiens that had genetic development problems, or some other kind of ailment.
See above. It is often debatable whether or not unique features (in this case size) represent a continum or a distinct species. It is not an exact science, and we may never know for sure. However, there is no other example of an adult human being so small.
Pygmies exist in Africa today, but are not considered a new species.
Pygmies are considerbly taller then these "hobbits". Also Pygmies are modern humans, the "hobbits" were not.
This report is more about research scientists getting more grant money than actually using the scientific method.
The findings are being reported in Nature, which has exceedingly high standards. There is absolutely no reason to make such accusations.
Re:non-human? (Score:3, Insightful)
>How can these researchers say for certain that these remains are of anything other than humans?
I assume that by "human" you mean the species Homo sapiens. The shape of the skull, dentition, the shape of the tibia, all point to it not being H. sapiens. In fact, there is some debate over whether it belongs in the genus Homo at all.
>It is more probable that these remains represent a small group of homo sapiens that had genetic development problems, or some other kind of ailment.
No, it is not.
Re:non-human? (Score:4, Insightful)
>I guess I'm a creationist now, I'm glad someone had the decency to tell me.
Are you claiming that you originated the toughts you posted? I have never encountered anyone voicing the blather you posted who did not have an a priori belief in creationism. There is not one "criticism you posted that has an ounce of support for it.>Maybe you are afraid to admit that evolutionary science is full of holes,
Hardly! Please list some of these alleged holes. I would absolutely love to find one. I figure that it would be worth a Nobel Prize and life tenure at Harvard or Stanford. Seriously. My only frustration is with religious zealots trying to shoehorn their fundamentalist dogma into science classrooms.I notice that you do not deny being a creationsist. If you are going to try to pretend that your bushwah actually passes for scientific thought, you should read some actual science. That way you won't sound like a luddite. I seriously doubt that you have heard "many" people who are not creationists criticize scientific researchers for leaps of faith. That statement is another staple of the creationist propaganda mill, as is the posture of wounded innocence that you affect. Save it for someone who hasn't seen it hundreds of times. As for religion, I have no quarrel with it until it enters the science classroom. On a personal level, I regard Biblical Litteralism and its offspring, creationism as heresy.