A Liquid That Turns Solid When Heated 450
Roland Piquepaille writes "There are some sure things in life, such as death and taxes. When you are heating a solid, you expect it will melt and when you're boiling water, you're pretty certain that it will turn into vapor. But what about a liquid that becomes solid when it's heated? Of course, it has already been done, for example in the chemical process of polymerization. But now, PhysicsWeb writes that a team of French physicists has discovered a law-breaking liquid that defies the rules. When you heat it between 45 and 75C, it becomes solid. But the process is fully reversible, and this is a world's premiere. When you decrease the temperature, this solid melts and turns again into a liquid. I'm not sure of the implications of such a phenomenon, but it's fascinating. Read more for essential details."
Weird, but cool! (Score:5, Funny)
The Matrix anyone?
Re:Weird, but cool! (Score:4, Insightful)
This is one of the things that makes you think if everything is as you know... The Matrix anyone?
Ehhh. This is more what we know empirically. We're merely discovering a priori things that we weren't aware of previously. The Matrix was more about what we know epistemically.
Re:Weird, but cool! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Weird, but cool! (Score:3, Funny)
He's probably just studied some philosophy. Get a clue. Or a PHIL minor. Or something.
All of the above.
Re:Weird, but cool! (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Weird, but cool! (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Weird, but cool! (Score:5, Funny)
Yes - it's survival of the fittest. Those bugs that could hide the best (until they show up to bite you in the ass) will do so.
Re:Weird, but cool! (Score:3, Insightful)
Reproduction. Mutation.
Re:Weird, but cool! (Score:3, Insightful)
However, a reversible transition in which a liquid becomes a solid when heated has never been observed until now (emphasis added by poster)
boaworm wrote:
Ever heard of a thing called an "egg"
I have in fact... but I have yet to hear of anyone un-cooking one...
Re:Weird, but cool! (Score:4, Informative)
Absolutely true. I was just trying to make fun of the very bad headline. The headline was "Science: A Liquid That Turns Solid When Heated", which is not at all interesting.
Also eggs cooking is the water coming out.
Now that is plain b-s. As I said, what happens is that when you add energy (heat) to the proteins, they re-fold and turns into a more stable substance, transforming from a liquid to a firm state.
Just to clearify this so that people dont believe your disinformation. If you boil and egg, in water, with the eggshell intact, you still think you will boil the water away from the "egg", making it firm ? You are utterly wrong, and not informative at all. Even a simple google reveals this, look here [howstuffworks.com] or here [faseb.org].
Go back to your cave, troll.
what it says (Score:5, Insightful)
Plazanet and colleagues prepared a liquid solution containing a-cyclodextrine (alpha-CD), water and 4-methylpyridine (4MP). Cyclodextrines are cyclic structures containing hydroxyl end groups that can form hydrogen bonds with either the 4MP or water molecules.
What I see:
And if you expect me to tell you how this discovery will modify our lives, you're going to be disappointed. I've not a slightest idea about it, even if I find fascinating that scientists always find new ways to break rules and shake our certitudes.
Re:what it says (Score:2, Funny)
Re:what it says (Score:2)
Re:what it says (Score:5, Funny)
And if you expect me to tell you how this discovery will modify our lives, you're going to be disappointed. I've not a slightest idea about it, even if I find fascinating that scientists always find new ways to break rules and shake our certitudes.
What I see:
I am a chemist that has discovered a class of mixtures with a very interesting and heretofor unobserved property. I have published information on how to prepare these mixtures--in a way, it is a solution looking for a problem. I expect that given a small group of engineers, a dozen or so different applications could be hashed out over their morning coffee. I am disappointed--but not surprised--that a Slashdot reader couldn't be bothered to use his imagination to come up with an application, preferring to instead complain that no ideas were spoon-fed in the brief PhysicsWeb note.
speculation on applications? (Score:3, Interesting)
thermometers for the 21st century and beyond.
Re:speculation on applications? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:speculation on applications? (Score:5, Funny)
You go to Target to buy a 12-pack of "One-Time Use Thermometers."
Instructions: "When the temperature is between 45 and 75 degrees celcius, the liquid inside turns to a solid, shattering the glass! That's all there is to it!"
Re:speculation on applications? (Score:5, Funny)
Useful for cooling stuff. (Score:5, Informative)
To a physicist the phase diagram is interesting, because the solid/gel must have a larger entropy than the corresponding liquid. (Remember that you calculate equilibrium by minimizing the Gibbs energy G = H - TS).
Anyway it has been known for many years that some triblock polymers form gels when heated, but perhaps the solid phase of this new liquid is "more solid". Perhaps the news is that the liquid has a larger enthalpy of melting. I don't know
Ok, here's what I can come up with (Score:5, Insightful)
Shock absorbers. This stuff would make fantastic shock absorbers.
Reinforcement for solid structures. Somebody already mentioned skyscrapers, but I'm also envisoning other more improbable structures, like hurricaine proof buildings. Wind blows, soften up the beams and let her bend a bit. Wind stops, stiffen the supports back up.
Mecha. This has to be used in mecha. Beams that can bend a bit, be solid or fluid, would be excellent in 50 foot killer robots. You know it.
Tank armour. Make it solid and when stuff hits, it breaks. Change temperature, and it melts. Change temp again and it becomes solid again, with no signs of previous damage. Regenerating armour.
Re:Application: Construction of Skyscrapers (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Application: Construction of Skyscrapers (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Application: Construction of Skyscrapers (Score:3, Interesting)
At best it proves how little we understand that law, but there's nothing to say the entropy wasn't balanced by the energy transfer involved(all physical condensations, straight from gas to solid would be a lot worse from a disorder aspect, without factoring the energy involved), and it's quite likely the math will bear this out(but I'm too lazy to do this math).
It also shows how an instinctive understanding of physic laws can lead to misunderstanding those laws. I'm sure someone tried to i
Re:Application: Construction of Skyscrapers (Score:3, Informative)
No need; conceptually it's easy enough: each of the aCD moledules gets bent out of shape by the heat, thus exposing more sites for hydrogen bonds to form, allowing the solidification to occurr. Since these molecules are capable of snapping back into the previous shape when cooled, they are therefore storing energy. And so the solid is still in a higher-energy state than the liquid.
Re:Application: Construction of Skyscrapers (Score:5, Informative)
Secondly, based on the types of compounds in the solution, and the description in the article, the "solid" is probably more of a waxy/jelly sort of substance.
That said, your idea could be made to work in other cases. I wonder if maybe the substance could be altered for use as a variable damping material for suspension or acoustic purposes.
Re:Application: Construction of Skyscrapers (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Application: Construction of Skyscrapers (Score:5, Interesting)
First, the World Trade Center collapsed because jet fuel burns extremely hot. The WTC design was actually far stronger than most other skyscrapers standing today. Notice that the building survived the initial impact of a plane, and that it wasn't until later, when the intense heat of the burning fuel had time to weaken the steel support structure that it collapsed. A normal building fire would not have threatened the structural integrity of the WTC because there was nothing in the WTC that was hot enough to melt the beams, until the plane, full of fuel, arrived.
Second, I didn't notice in the article whether the volume of the material expands or contracts when it turns solid. If the hollow beam is partly filled with liquid (because the liquid expands when frozen) then there isn't necessarily enough contact between the liquid and the burning sections of the building to protect the upper portions of the beam. The beam will conduct some of the heat to the liquid, but depending on where the fire occurs in relation to the beam, the top of the liquid might freeze first, leaving the upper portion of the beam hollow. If the liquid contracts when frozen, you end up with a partly filled beam, which isn't necessarily stronger than a beam with nothing in it.
This leads to the third point, that nothing is mentioned about the structural properties of the liquid when frozen. Steel behaves extremely well under tension, and concrete under pressure. Thus, they complement each other quite well (which is why we make buildings out of them). Would the liquid make a better replacement for the steel, or the concrete? And would it perform equally well when the building is not on fire? Has having liquid-filled cavities in the building strengthened or weakened the structure, for the large majority of the time?
Finally, does the cost of using a material like this justify it? It's new, it probably costs more than steel to use in a building. Wouldn't redundant support structures be more reasonable? Or, using a design like the WTC, which I noted only failed from the heat of burning jet fuel?
Re:Application: Construction of Skyscrapers (Score:5, Insightful)
Even with jet fuel it wasn't enough to melt the steel. The problem is that steel loses much of it's strength at high temperatures, making it liable to bend or snap under load.
Also, and I relize your are replying to someone else's idea here, but I fail to see any logic in using this stuff in construction. What possible benefit is there in having the material be liquid at low temperatures? Instead of adding this stuff "in case of fire" you're better off using some ordinary building material that will be stronger at both low and high temperatures.
-
No use to skyscrapers (Score:3, Informative)
The basic issue, as you note, is that steel loses flexural strength at an alarming rate when heated. At 500degrees C, the flexural modulus is reduced over 50%, and that's enough to destabilise structures - after which loads get concentrated, and progressive collapse ensues. No need for actual melting.
So: how to keep
Cookie dough batter (Score:3, Funny)
Cookie dough batter turns to solid in oven when heated. (Yeah, yeah, it's not reversible...)
Re:Cookie dough batter (Score:2, Informative)
Cookie dough batter turns to solid in oven when heated. (Yeah, yeah, it's not reversible...)
I was thinking about that as well. But I think that cookie dough just turns solid because the water in it slowly evaporates and not because the molecules stop moving (or move slower).
Re:Cookie dough batter (Score:3, Informative)
Maybe it is because of the loss of water in it...
Re:Cookie dough batter (Score:5, Funny)
What?! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:What?! (Score:4, Informative)
I read about this a while back.. (Score:5, Funny)
What a shocker... (Score:2, Funny)
Re:What a shocker... (Score:3, Funny)
The Americans call the French pussys and cowards...
The French call the Americans arrogant and, uh, bigots...
You must be french.
BTW: The whole thing is a joke anyway. Don't get your panties in a bunch. Pussy.
Now we can buy (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Now we can buy (Score:2)
Re:Now we can buy (Score:5, Funny)
So you live on a diet consisting exclusively of salt, sand, battery acid, and water? What, are you some kind of robot? If so, what are your powers? Do you use them for good, or for awesome?
Re:Now we can buy (Score:5, Funny)
Assassins take note! (Score:4, Interesting)
So...if you were to put this in someone's bloodstream with the right concentration, you could cause it to solidify once it reached standard body temperature...
The Sci Fi angle... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Assassins take note! (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Assassins take note! (Score:2)
Re:Assassins take note! (Score:3, Interesting)
The human body is a toasty 37 degree celsius (98.6 degrees fahrenheit). To take it to 47 degrees (116 degrees) would likely kill the person long before the hardening of the substance would.
Never mind the 75 (167) degrees...
Methinks that this might have some value as reinforcement for ceramic moulds.
Or... perhaps a form of cooking spray that wou
Gotta say it... (Score:4, Funny)
Heat shield? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Heat shield? (Score:5, Informative)
That would probably depend on the property of the solid that forms when the solution is heated (is it a good insulator? what are its structural properties?), but I can think of one related application: temperature-controlled switch.
The solution is transparent to visible light, whereas the solid that forms is not. Since this process depends on the temperature and is reversible, it's very simple to design a circuit (using a LED and phototransistor or some sort of photo-detector) that works as temperature-dependent switch. From what the article says,
The temperature at which it becomes a solid falls as the concentration of CD increases.
it should be possible to tweak the turn-on temperature to a degree.
But then, this is not anything new--as far as dependence on temperature goes, there are many other materials that are probably more reliable (the only thing novel about this would be that its dependence is backward.)
Back to the topic, yeah, it can probably be used as heat shield in a limited capacity: i.e. if it turns out that the liquid is transparent to infrared radiation while the solid isn't, this can be used as natural temperature-controlled infrared radiation shield (but of course, it will still be subject to heating due to other methods, like...conduction via the solid itself, unless the resulting solid turns out to be similar to styroform).
Re:Heat shield? (Score:2)
It would be far simpler to exploit the temperature dependence of the LED or the transistor, or maybe an even more simple device that is made for temperature sensing.
Re:Heat shield? (Score:2)
Re:Heat shield? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Heat shield? (Score:3, Informative)
Good point, it takes a lot more energy to change phase (eg. ice to water, water to steam) than it does to simply heat a single phase material a few degrees. The phase change will consume energy before heating will occur again. That is the reason why ice water is at 0 celcius until you melt all of the ice, even if the pot it is in is at 100 celcius - you have to put enough energy in to complete the phase c
Gets hard when you heat it? (Score:5, Insightful)
Or at least a splint that packs down small but that remains rigid when in contact with a warm body.
Um.. Maybe that would apply to a sex toy
Re:Gets hard when you heat it? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Gets hard when you heat it? (Score:2)
security system (Score:2)
actually . . . (Score:5, Funny)
Missing some info here (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Missing some info here (Score:5, Informative)
I wouldn't be too sure about that.
Bose-Einstein Condensate [wikipedia.org]
Superfluids [wikipedia.org]
First rule of physics: When you're dealing with extremes, things get funky.
Re:Missing some info here (Score:5, Interesting)
That's in theory, of couse, since you can't hit 0 degrees Kelvin.
But assuming you mean 'near 0 Kelvin', like d00ket pointed out, things get really weird down there. Some substances don't appear to have freezing points, there is no state below 'liquid'...they just move slower and slower. And some freeze quite normally, then do another transition way down there where they move back to a liquid like substance.
The substance in the article is interesting, but not completely amazing. Various 'states of matter' are just rules of thumb.
Re:Missing some info here (Score:3, Interesting)
I could be wrong, but I think that many-body interactions can change the internal states of the atoms, which of course must be the same across the board for the condensate to form.
In a nutshell, BECs are formed by applying a magnetic field, which is essentially a 3D SHO potential (mass on a spring). The atoms are cooled by lasers, craftily 'detuned' fro
Re:Missing some info here (Score:3, Interesting)
I know, it's a trick. The fermionic atoms pair up [colorado.edu]. Weird trick, I don't really get it. (How are they overlapping enough do that in the first place? Damn quantum mechanics.)
So, more technically, it only occurs for entities which are bosonic.
But that way leads to madness and people walking though walls after removing a few atoms from their body and the wall.
Re:Missing some info here (Score:3, Interesting)
Applications? (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm not sure this is that new (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:I'm not sure this is that new (Score:4, Informative)
From Haldex [haldex-traction.com]:
Something tells me having hydralic fluid that turns solid when it gets hot wouldn't help a system like thisRe:I'm not sure this is that new (Score:5, Informative)
The other type of LSD is a clutch-plate type. These can be adjusted for resistance to slippage by arranging the type and order of clutch plates in the LSD. A viscous LSD on the other hand is governed by the properties of the fluid, and is subject to failure under high loads (i.e. the liquid can only take so much friction before it breaks down and loses it's valuable properties). In general practice, for performance and cost, viscous LSD's are used, but for high performance, resilience, adjustability and durability, the clutch type LSD is preferable, but has a significantly higher cost.
That's about all I know about LSD's.
Re:I'm not sure this is that new (Score:4, Funny)
Torsen differential (Score:4, Informative)
The best option over the above (and a common upgrade) is the fully-mechanical "Torsen" ( torque-sensing ) differential.
Quaife [quaife.co.uk] makes one of these. An all-wheel drive car would need three, and at around $1k a pop they aren't exactly cheap, but they have a lifetime warranty.
Breaks the laws of physics? (Score:5, Informative)
This is not an example of a new found element with impossible thermal properties. This is an example of materials and molecular chemistry in action. This works because it follows the laws of physics.
Slashdot Egoists + science story = hilarity (Score:5, Interesting)
Good work but not revolutionary. (Score:3, Interesting)
People have been studying vortex systems that
do that. This is only new because it's a chemical
compound (rather than say electrons) that does this.
No physics breakthrough here. Maybe chemical
engineering breakthrough but that's it.
Space shuttle? (Score:3, Interesting)
Roland Piquepaille (Score:5, Funny)
I don't know chemistry (Score:5, Funny)
Plazanet and colleagues prepared a liquid solution containing ?-cyclodextrine (?CD), water and 4-methylpyridine (4MP).
Is it edible?
Re:I don't know chemistry (Score:4, Informative)
water? Definitely.
4-methylpyridine? Probably causes cancer. Known to cause damage to the central nervous system. In simple words: Poision.
Damnable Hydrogen Bonds (Score:4, Funny)
New meaning to the term lock up (Score:3, Interesting)
Seriously though, if this stuff interacts well with other substances (i.e. doesn't explode, melt, send it to another dimension) then it could feasibly have applications where it would solidify around objects once they got too hot, thereby stopping their motion. And since the article says you can adjust the solidifying (freezing?) point based on its concentration, it could be tailor-made for different devices. This probably won't happen though because I'm guessing this stuff is probably expensive to make and does who-knows-what to human tissue
It's stuff like this... (Score:2)
Useful material to have when printing out organs (Score:5, Interesting)
BTM
Bah, I do this all the time... (Score:3, Funny)
Placing the solid into my fridge, and again forgetting it for say, 2 or 3 weeks, reduces the solid back into a liquid.
Though I havn't personally tried it, I'm fairly certain that if I were to return the liquid back to the oven, and again properly forget about it, that I would again get a solid.
Breaks the rules? (Score:4, Informative)
Analogy: Water freezes at 0 degrees Celsius, sodium chloride (salt) much higher at 804 Celsius. Add the two together to form an aqueous solution of sodium chloride and it lowers the freezing temperature, contrary to the properties of both substances. Heat it, and evaporate the water off and you end up with solid NaCl.
Sorry, but this has been hyped beyond recognition.
Re:Breaks the rules? (Score:3, Informative)
In other words it freezes.
And your boiling salt-water analogy is horrid. This is pure and reversible melting freezing process.
It isn't a "scientific breakthrough" in that there is no new new physics understanding, however it is an entirely new material with entirely novel behaviour. Novel materials with novel behaviour is an opportunity for entirely novel engineering and ent
Re:Breaks the rules? (Score:3, Insightful)
If so then water turning into ice is "chemical manipulation" as well. When pure water freezes it forms the exact same sort of hydrogen bonds this new substance forms. In both cases those hydrogen bonds provide the attraction that overcomes the thermal motion of the molecules, freezing them in place.
It's the exact same process. The only difference is that in this new substance the hydrogen atoms are "hidden" towards the inside of the molecule at low temperatures and they swing
Astroturf Alert! (Score:4, Informative)
liquid bullet proof jackets anyone? (Score:4, Interesting)
Lovely. A revolutionary leap in science... (Score:3)
Too much Calvin & Hobbes, I suppose.
Summary for non-chemists (Score:5, Insightful)
When you heat something, the entropy (disorder) of a system increases in importance. This is a law of thermodynamics.
A gas has greater entropy than a liquid, both have greater entropy than a solid. Usually.
Now, this substance turns solid when you heat it. -This means the solid phase has higher entropy than the liquid phase. That is unusual, but it doesn't violate any laws.
How does it work? Well, it appear the alpha-cyclodextrin molecule has two conformations (shapes). In the low-temperature one, it hydrogen-bonds to itself. At higher temperatures, these bonds are broken. (this is what happens with ice-water-steam too)
The funny thing about this substance, is that once these internal hydrogen bonds are broken, it allows the molecule to bind to other ones.. so while you break the "internal" hydrogen bonds, you give rise to a bunch of "external" molecular bonds, to other alpha-cyclodextrine molecules.
This leads to the formation of a solid. (not actually a true solid, but rather a 'sol', a suspension of linked-together alpha-Cyclodextrin molecules in water) And this solid actually does have lower entropy than the liquid phase, due to the breaking of the internal hydrogen-bonds.
No laws broken. Nothing 'impossible' going on. But, it is however an interesting phenomenon, and something which certainly may turn out to have practical uses in the future.
Is this really news? (Score:4, Insightful)
Well,it's amazing, but it's not the first time i see it.
I work in molecular biology. Recently we started doing experiments with so-called Matrigel. This is purified extracellular matrix from mice tumours. It's a natural environment to grow endothelial cells and study the development of blood vessels. This is by no means a mysterious substance - thousand of labs buy it and use it every day.
Well, Matrigel works exactly the same way the substance in the article does. It is fluid around 0, but rapidly freezes at -20 and rapidly becomes solid at room temperature. And it is fully reversible. This also makes the substance a bitch to manipulate -you pick up with the pipette,and it becomes solid inside the pipette before you can transfer it!
Still, it is amazing to mimic such a behaviour in a simple solution instead than in the tremendous proteins-and-sugars mess that's Matrigel.
New deodorant? (Score:5, Funny)
OK, I'm just spitballing here.
The process they describe IS polymerization (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:I can think of another one... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:chemistry (Score:3, Funny)
Re:The Law (Score:2, Informative)
Re:The Law (Score:3, Funny)
"dumb-it-down" soundbite phrasing (Score:5, Insightful)
It's almost certainly those pesky hydrogen bonds - they're responsible for just about everything interesting in organic chemistry... Strange how things ultimately come down to geometry
It is new and strange, but I'd be willing to bet just about anything that the physical laws of energy conservation, attraction and conversion are being rigorously adhered to
Simon
Re:Cool (Score:4, Informative)
Sols aren't solids. A "sol" is a colloid solution, so is a gel. Without getting too deep into the chemistry, he's basically saying it's a gel.
(Look up 'sol', 'gel', 'dispersion' and 'colloid' for more details)
Re:Cool (Score:5, Interesting)
Its basically a more refined process of distilling out a liquid from a solution, and getting a solid out. However this new solid has chemical properties of both parts of whatever was in the solution. It allows for things like low-temperature glassmaking.
Literally a "sol-gel" is just a solid that still has some of the properties of a liquid/fluid such as flowing and free atomic relocation, but is much closer to a solid then a traditional fluid. This however does not make it a "jelly" or a "gel" its chemically, as well as physically distinct.
Medevo