BOINC Project to Search for Gravitational Waves 206
Buzz Skyline writes "Einstein@Home is a new, BOINC-based distributed computing project that will analyze data from the Laser Interferometer Gravitational wave Observatory (LIGO). The goal is to perform a whole-sky, gravitational wave survey of pulsars. Beta-test versions of the Einstein@Home screen saver should be available by the end of the summer, and final release is planned for early 2005."
Wasn't there a generic piece of software for this (Score:2)
It seems to me that if you're after people donating CPU cycles something generic would be the way to go.
That would be BOINC (Score:5, Insightful)
So far, this would seem to be the 3rd BOINC project after Seti@Home and Predictor@Home.
Re:That would be BOINC (Score:3, Funny)
I'm not donating any cycles to see if my gf is pregnant
BOINC - Generic distributed client (Score:4, Insightful)
SETI@Home on BOINC [berkeley.edu]
Re:Wasn't there a generic piece of software for th (Score:2)
The New SETI@Home (Score:5, Interesting)
Of course, an advanced civilization using gravity waves would eventually switch over to some sort of sub-space/zero-point field communication system that could facilitate instant point-to-point communication between two points anywhere in the galaxy. Guess we'll have to wait for Subspace@Home.
Gravity travels instantaneously (Score:2)
If these hypothetical advanced civilization manages to find a way to communicate with gravity waves, then there you go; problem solved.
Re:Gravity travels instantaneously (Score:3, Interesting)
The US Navy is right now studying using gravity waves to communicate to submarines underwater, although a URL with more information eludes me.
I am hopi
Re:Gravity travels instantaneously (Score:2)
Re:Gravity travels instantaneously (Score:2)
Re:Gravity travels instantaneously (Score:3, Interesting)
It's like saying the Navy is researching how to use the body of the Loch Ness Monster to power their aircraft c
Re:Gravity travels instantaneously (Score:2)
Quite, we've been doing that with the economy for quite some time.
Re:Gravity travels instantaneously (Score:2)
Re:Gravity travels instantaneously (Score:2)
The graviton particle is a convenient way to imagine the force of gravity travelling and acting on other particles. It'd be nice to know how it really works though.
Re:Gravity travels instantaneously (Score:2)
The project name should have been a clue. Einstein's general theory of relativity means that signals cannot travel faster than the speed of light. Another feature is that anything that has energy also has mass. So light can be affected by gravity, which is what this project is all about!
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Gravity travels instantaneously (Score:3, Insightful)
The US Navy actual does a lot of research of gravity waves, however they are referring to a slightly different definition or nature. Instead they are looking at periodic influences of tides and other aspects of gravity. For example, examining the effects of "gravity waves" on the atmosphere [navy.mil]. It also doesn't help that a component of surface waves on the ocean are also called "gravity waves" since these are waves that are working against gravity. A google search shows the stuff does show up in a lot of Na
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Gravity travels instantaneously (Score:3, Interesting)
The term "gravity wave" is used in hydrodynamics to refer to large waves at fluid boundaries which are governed exclusively by inertia and gravity. For example, your typical ocean wave. This is as opposed to a "capillary wave" which is governed at least partially by the effects of surface tension and cohesion. In water, the transition from gravity to capillary wave behavior occurs somewhere around a wavelength o
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Gravity travels instantaneously (Score:2)
As you yourself mentioned, the jury is still out on this one.
The general consensus of the scientific world is that gravity probably travels at the speed of light, but the important point is that no-one has been able to measure it. Einstein's theory predicts that gravity travels at the speed of light, but if some experiment shows the speed to be something else, then the
Re:Gravity travels instantaneously (Score:2)
If giant balls of hydrogen, many times as massive as the earth, could just up and disappear, we'd have much bigger problems than the speed of gravity to worry about. Of course, I understand that this is all hypothetical.
At least, as we hurled off into deep space, our scientific curiousity would be satisfied.
Re:Um...No. (Score:2)
Sounds fine to me.
Feeling the effect before seeing the cause doesn't mean effect came before cause at the point of origin. If the cause particles (photons) take longer to reach me than the effect particles (gravitons), so what?
Re:Um...No. (Score:3, Informative)
If we can send a faster-than-light signal, we can exploit relativity to send signals into the past.
First, we need to realise that 'simultaneous' is a relative concept. Consider three evenly spaced spacecraft flying past you in a line. The centre ship fires lasers at the front and back ships, and when the beam reaches them they explode. Simultaneously? No: the lead ship is flying directly away from the
Re:Um...No. (Score:2)
I do realize that relativity tends to contradict common sense and that most arguments like this tend to turn out OK when all the details are considered, but I'm not sure about this one.
You're suggesting that if I draw a lottery (A) and then broadcast the result (B), so
Re:Um...No. (Score:3, Interesting)
If A and B are simultaneous in your frame of reference, then A will be before B in frames of reference moving in one direction, and B will be before A in frames of reference moving in the opposite direction. So if you broadcast the result using an instantaneous communication device, then the recipient will get the result before the lottery is drawn - at least from som
Re:Um...Headache :) (Score:2)
The same thing we'll DO when we have motion machines that ARE PERPETUAL -- modify the theory. Until then...
if the communication really is 'instant' - it is instant, for all frames of reference - so the ship would get the alpha cent signal at the same time as earth at the same time as all other points... if not, then it isn't 'instant' :)
Saying that the transmission and receipt of a signal are simultaneous, fo
Re:Um...Headache :) (Score:3, Informative)
Spacetime diagram doesn't work out for this one, unfortunately... Think of a light-cone centered on Earth and another one centered on Alpha - they cross
Re:Um...Headache :) (Score:2)
Re:Um...No. (Score:5, Informative)
No, for at least some moving observers you do wind up with the effect preceeding the cause. It's all part of relativity. Two observers moving in opposit directions can dissagree about the order of two events. If anything exceeds the speed of light one of the observers will see the effect preceed the cause on the time line.
There is no such thing as "simultaneous", it's all relative.
-
Instantly.. because it bends time.. (Score:2)
distance/time=speed
anything/0=undefined
weirdness.
Our instruments are anchored in time, so how can we measure a wave that warps it?
We really are stuck in a cave looking at the shadows on the walls.
I'll stick with Einstein on this one (Score:2)
Check out LISA at the JPL's site. (Score:2)
Re:The New SETI@Home (Score:4, Interesting)
Gravity wave communication strikes me as difficult - not sure you would get the bandwidth (high frequency) without a truly monster recoil problem. And building a Gaser - while a truly phenomal feat - you would need to know where to point it.
Neutrinos might be an interesting communication solution, but you also have the problem of having to point them in the right direction.
Radio is simpler, needs lower power and even dumb earthlings have some idea on how to listen to it.
Re:The New SETI@Home (Score:3, Interesting)
Not really. You take a beam of, say electrons, moving at ultrarelativistic energies and smash them into a target thereby generating, amongst other things, relativistic muons. The latter are emitted in a well collimated beam and as they decay to electrons and muon-antineutrinos, the latter are themselves created in a highly collimated beam. All you have to arrange is tha
Re:The New SETI@Home (Score:2)
But my bad - I should have said what I meant.
A radio wave spreads out easily - without a specifically designed antenna and covers all space easily to limit of detection sensitivity.
A neutrino beam is exactly that. Unless you know where to point it, you are not going to communicate to anyone unless you are amazingly lucky. So once you found an alien civilisation a neutrino beam comm channel could be useful.
Re:The New SETI@Home (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:The New SETI@Home (Score:2)
Are you talking about communicating at a speed exceeding the speed of light? Does not the current model rule that flat-out?
Re:The New SETI@Home (Score:4, Interesting)
You weren't at the lunch time meeting I was forced to attend - dumb and ignorant are both appropriate, and yes my "superiors" have permanently coloured my view of humanity.
"We know it's possible since it's a well known fact that hyperspace exists" - references please
"but we haven't really put much effort into cracking the science, " - I half agree here, but do you know anyone with the cash to setup a research facility for it? where do start, how do you stop filter out the cranks from research positions. While I don't think FTL travel or comms is really possible, there are some truly weird kinks in quantum theory that no-one has truly explored.
"since who on earth needs faster-than-light communication anyway." - me - give instantaeneous communication (who needs FTL comms)for 2 or 3 months and watch me rake in the big bucks (forex market - arbitaging between New York, London and Tokyo), until I get shut down or bought out. Actually give me a Naser (Neutrino Amplification Stimulated Emitted Radiation), so I can set up a comm link through the Earth rather than being routed through satellites or on cables around the Earth and I could still probably pull it off - should only need a second or two as an advantage and a fast trading program.
Re:The New SETI@Home (Score:3, Funny)
London and Tokyo are in relative motion. What London thinks are simultaneous events, Tokyo will think are separated by a small interval of time.
Exploit! Our instant signal from London to Tokyo goes to Tokyo at a time based on London's view of what 'simultaneous' means, and our instant signal back go
Re:The New SETI@Home (Score:3, Informative)
Erm, our current understanding via Einstein's general theory of relativity is that gravity waves move AT the speed of light. Among other things, this avoids causality problems. Some efforts have been (and are being) made to prove this, and early indicators are that this is so, though we await conclusive testing.
See the following reference [wikipedia.org].
The... what now? (Score:5, Funny)
Calvin & Hobbes book (Score:2)
Re:The... what now? (Score:2)
Which, due to the size of a gravitational effect are about as useful as a chocolate fireguard.
Prior art by Watterson? (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Prior art by Watterson? (Score:2)
Here's prior art to your post about prior art. [slashdot.org]
I was a member of the BOINC project (Score:2, Funny)
Troll? (Score:2)
Modding me as troll was a waste of mod points. Like all things that strive to be funny but fail, they should be ignored.
Sheesh, wait until Oscar Goldman hears about this, you will be so sorry. Now Jamie called, and I got to pick up some dog food for are dog. You would think a dog that is mostly electronic wouldn't eats so much.
That reminds of the time I met Bigfoot...
Can they port this to my cellphone? (Score:2, Interesting)
Desktop: Seti
Laptop: PrimeNet
Re:Can they port this to my cellphone? (Score:2, Insightful)
Am I the only one here that finds this attempt at humor actually rather interesting. Given that my pocket calculator probably has more power than the computer system on the Apolo lander (please no debates on whether or not it happened) I can see this comment making a lot of sense for the future of high-powered computing.
Re:Can they port this to my cellphone? (Score:2)
it wouldnt come out for portable devices. these things need to switch into lower power mode when you arent using them. SNES has a 9MHz? processor so its not going to do all that good. not even sure if it has a floating point processor. dvd players probably dont have great processors either, a separate chip for mpeg decoding to make them cheaper.
so, you just have to choose which one to run on your computer. probably once we are saturated with these things, it will be very hard for researchers to get anyone
Hooray for Boinc! (Score:4, Informative)
Boinc should open up more distributed computing projects as well, since the server/client infrastructure is mostly prewritten. Since my other Boinc projects have been sputtering and not giving me work lately, maybe I'll give this one a try. More info on Boinc Here [berkeley.edu]
BOINC has issues... (Score:5, Informative)
For one thing, on most of the workstations BOINC would appear to work very quickly on the data only to crash out well before the computation was created. Indeed, sometimes it would actually crash before any data was processed by the application. At other points it would work for hours and hours without actually achieving anything; closing down the workstations at the end of the day without getting one computed dataset off was quite frustrating. On the workstations that were actually computing datasets we discovered a few started to become bloated past the point of peak functionality within a few months of even casual use.
While it's possible that it's the inhouse .NET code that could be creating the problem, after several weeks of debugging we're pretty sure it's BOINC related. My suggestion is to steer clear and look for a safer and more reliable API (or roll your own).
Re:BOINC has issues... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:BOINC has issues... (Score:2)
Apparently you downloaded the Windows version...
Re:BOINC has issues... (Score:2)
but then again, you're a troll. rats.
Re:BOINC has issues... (Score:2)
Of course... Microsoft's code, known to be buggy, cannot possibly be the source of the problem... While code that is currently running on tens of thousands of computers across the globe with utter stability must be the problem.
From your description, it's
Re:BOINC has issues... (Score:2)
To be honest, a lot of folks on here would probably benefit from BOINC; it's definite
Re:BOINC has issues... (Score:2, Interesting)
Just a data point, but I'm not going to be bothered to troubleshoot their software to donate to their project.
Maybe when it's out of beta I'll try again, but I've been having all sorts of weird problems ever since I tried that damn thing.
Re:BOINC has issues... (Score:2)
All I Can Say. (Score:2, Funny)
GriPhyN - Grid Physics Network (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:GriPhyN - Grid Physics Network (Score:2)
No screensaver, just set the power management option to turn the screen off
Commercial applications of BOINC like software (Score:3, Interesting)
Most office computers in offices that I have been working in have relativly decent power and word processing doesn't take up much of their resources. Offices could make extra cash by running software in the backgrounds on their computers, if not during the day, then at night or after hours. Hrm, interesting possibilities
No it isn't (Score:2)
Re:No it isn't (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:No it isn't (Score:4, Informative)
The end users meanwhile don't want to sign up to run endless amounts of "test packets" that aren't accomplishing anything. (They obviously don't start getting paid until there's actually customers to crunch for.) It also doesn't help that these companies' software was also kind of bloated and quirky.
The lure of being able to materially contribute to real science, in areas that are typically underfunded, by donating only idle CPU cycles is quite strong. People will do that for free. The minute you start making them focus on it as a business venture, they start getting very picky and a lot less tolerant.
I don't think you're wrong, I think there will be some pay-to-crunch type systems existing in the future. But I think they will only be branches off an existing donated network (like Seti@Home). I really doubt anyone will be able to start one from the ground up as a business model. BOINC might be a place to start, but it would need some serious modifications.
For one thing, the BOINC credit system is based on what the end users' computers self-report. Each client software runs benchmarks of its CPU, and then based on the amount of time it took to finish a Work Unit, reports back to the server how many CS (credits) it should be granted. To guard against cheating, the server will send out the same Work Unit to 3 clients, and all 3 clients will only be granted the smallest number of credits of what the 3 individuals claim.
It will probably work well most of the time, because you have millions of users, and no real incentive for most of them to cheat. The probability of the same packet being sent to 3 different cheaters is fairly small. (And even if all 3 WERE cheaters and got more credits than they deserved, it doesn't REALLY matter, does it.)
But in a commercial setup, 100% of your end users have an incentive to cheat. (If you're getting paid $1.50 per credit, it's in every end users' interest to claim as many credits as you can get away with, regardless of how long it actually took.)
But regardless, I think distributed computing projects are going to be taking off dramatically in the next few years, paid or otherwise. It's going to be pretty exciting to see the kinds of crazy things people will start wanting to crunch with it.
Re:No it isn't (Score:2)
H-bomb@home (Score:5, Insightful)
One of my colleagues likes to tease our students by referring to this volunteer grid stuff as "H-bomb@home". "Sure, your SW says it's doing gravity-wave calculations. I claim that USDoD is using it to do H-bomb (or bioweapon, or whatever) design simulations for free on your computer. Go ahead, prove me wrong."
IMHO it's an interesting point.
Re:H-bomb@home (Score:2, Insightful)
Put his fears to rest. Most of this stuff is actually being used so a multinational corporation can get another patent on your computer's time. But all that electricity might as well work for someone instead of pushing flying toasters across your screen.
*This* project seems quite likely..Hanford? (Score:2)
I cannot overstate the alien devastation that is at the Hanford site. It is by far the most bizarre and scary thing I have ever seen. Nothing in my experience prepared me for what I saw, nor can I describe it to you. The most heinous depictions in movies and games only begin to capture the horror.
When I first heard of a 300 mil
Re:*This* project seems quite likely..Hanford? (Score:2)
I was truly astonished by some of the anecdotes he shared. They really have no idea what is in those tanks - the records kept were horrible, and they pumped stuff from tank to tank on several occasions. Ther
Re:*This* project seems quite likely..Hanford? (Score:2)
Actually, you just did.
Re:H-bomb@home (Score:2, Informative)
LIGO Hanford! (Score:5, Interesting)
Its interesting that LIGO Livingston seems to be the more PR focused one. Go figure the one in a worse location for this work, but not on a nuclear site gets the PR
If I remember right, there are 5 other international LIGOs, all collaborating on this. It's amazing the expense getting put into verifying this prediction by Einstein. It's never been clear to me why peopel care enough to go to such great lengths to verify this prediction. Anyone have insite in this? Please no philosophical boiler-plate answers...real impact-on-physics answers are what I am looking for.
Re:LIGO Hanford! (Score:2)
I overflew Hanford several years ago, and let me tell you, this place is not "cool". No doubt their seismograph is to detect intruders, not to detect "vibrations from space" (lol).
From the air, the truth becomes apparent, t
Re:LIGO Hanford! (Score:2)
Obviously, you've never been to Cleaveland! (rimshot!)
I work at Hanford. You haven't a clue about the past history and present condition of the facility. It is glaringly apparent by your comments:
I have met many people who have gone on tours of the facility, with happy dazy reports such as yours. This is because quite clearly, any place they let people visit is carefully designed to give a sense of normality.
The tone of your commen
Hmmm (Score:2, Informative)
What about the GEO 600? (Score:4, Informative)
As written up at the back of Wired mag [wired.com] a few years back.
http://www.geo600.uni-hannover.de/ [uni-hannover.de]
Picture two tubes, each exactly 600m long and at 90 degrees to one another in the horizontal plane. Bounce a laser beam off a mirror at the end of each one. The time should be identical. Unless there is a gravitational pulse, in which case one would appear shorter than the other.
Or maybe this is something completely different =)
Re:What about the GEO 600? (Score:3, Interesting)
Unit of Measurement (Score:2)
Gravitation Wave Laser Interferometers. (Score:5, Informative)
The interferometer is a typical Michaelson interferemoter using lasers with two orthogonal branches 600 metres in length. These gravitation events are small. Movements are ~10-E24 metres. It is expected that only one or two events a year will be detected. So it must run 24/7, 365 days a year.
Naturally you have to remove as much of the noise from the data as possible to detect an event. Mirrors are hung on glass threads as they are thermally inert. It runs in a vacuum. It is temperature controlled. Everything is monitored from air pressure to sisemology. The amount of data being produced is incredible. I assume LIGO is the same hence the distributed analysis.
GE0600 uses a microwave link to transmit data from the site to Hanover where it is backed up and fat pipes pass it on to partner universities. The 'head end' on site uses triple redundancy and enough bufferage for 24 hours back-up on site.
You are talking many gigabytes a day and many terabytes a year and some where in this lot will be an event. This is truely the domain of super computing or distributed processing.
Of course, even LIGO which is larger, is unlikely to spot many events if any and we will probably have to wait until LISA [nasa.gov], the NASA/JPL/ESA spaced based interferometry project is up and running to get decent results.
Good book on the subject - debunks 80% of posts... (Score:3, Interesting)
There's a great book called "Einstein's Unifinished Symphony" that covers all this in great detail.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0
The most likely thing to actually catch one is the proposed space based interferometer:
http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/missions/g
Re:Good book on the subject - debunks 80% of posts (Score:2)
I've read about this before. How the hell do they plan on keeping that system calibrated?
The three [spacecraft] are designed to detect gravity waves by measuring subtle changes in the spacecrafts' position. Aboard are instruments sensitive enough to notice positional changes as small as one-fiftieth the width of a human hair.
Sounds near im
Excellent mission; a bit rough on the environment (Score:3, Interesting)
That said, looking at the LIGO facility [caltech.edu], it seems like somewhat of a harsh scar on the Louisiana forest. Could they not have been a little 'greener' in their construction of the site? One of their daily secondary missions, after all, is educating students.
Gravity Waves, the answer to everything (Score:2, Insightful)
BOINC and economics (Score:2)
Gravity wave research.. (Score:2, Funny)
*remembers that Dr. Zefram Cochrane (ST) was born in 2030
Installable as daemon/service? (Score:2)
Sounds interesting. Seems from the site it only works as a screensaver, though. At work we have 3 powerful dual cpu workstations (always on, not always logged in, almost never in screensaver mode) that could contribute if only the distributed program functioned a service. My FreeBSD server at home doesn't even have X, but still have lots of spare cycles that a 'nice -19' gravitational wave daemon could use.
Just a thought.
Re:Many projects (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Many projects (Score:3, Interesting)
Fight AIDS at home [scripps.edu] is just such a project.
While I agree that there are factors that prevent this from being used by everyone constantly, large-scale projects can often have a marketing twist put on them, or offer incentives. Additionally, an especially cool geek project would certainly pull a few volunteers. The important part is getting the awareness of the project to the proper audience, as the internet expands
Re:Many projects (Score:2)
-Jesse
Re:Many projects (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Many projects (Score:2)
Folding @home [stanford.edu]
Re:Many projects (Score:2, Interesting)
I can't believe you mentioned it and didn't then tell us. I would be happy to supply computer time for projects such as yours.
When I look for an DC project I look for one that fits the following criteria in this order of importance:
a)The results are published freely with no restriction on there use (so non-commercial basically - they can pay for computer time if they want it)
c)There is a linux version (preferably command line)
b)The software requires no user intervention (bey
Re:Many projects (Score:2, Informative)
I'm sure they've been mentioned before, but they seem to meet your four criteria nicely:
a) The second question in their FAQ [stanford.edu] is "Who owns the results" [stanford.edu]
c) A Linux Console version is listed on theirDownload Page [stanford.edu] along with Windows and Mac OS X versions.
b) In my experience, I've had to do nothing but install and let the software do it
I think what's needed (Score:2)
Re:Gravity waves do dot exist. (Score:2, Insightful)
Well, as a theory it's done remarkably well at explaining existing phenomena and predicting new phenomena (eg gravitational bending of light).
The whole point of those silly calculations is to determine whether
Re:Gravity waves do dot exist. (Score:3, Funny)
Stop all funding for gravity experiments and go back to making some more of those wonderful bobble-head dolls. I can't get enough of them!