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Science Technology

Using Math To Design Cities And Supercomputers 40

caek writes "If you've played Sim City you've wrestled with one of the problems faced by supercomputer designers. Unfortunately there's no GameFAQs.com for the technical staff at Japan's Earth Simulator or Srinidhi Varadarajan and colleagues at Virginia Tech. True enough, they won't have to deal with rising crime or Godzilla but, as hinted at in a recent paper in Journal of Physics A, the physical layout of a massively parallel supercomputer is fundamentally the same problem as minimizing the time commuters spent stuck in traffic jams. Read the rest of my kuro5hin article for a popular explanation."
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Using Math To Design Cities And Supercomputers

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  • Why not? (Score:3, Funny)

    by danratherfan ( 624592 ) on Wednesday June 02, 2004 @11:38AM (#9315266) Journal
    Just make the city a big parking lot. With roads that lead to nowhere?
  • Excellent.. (Score:5, Funny)

    by Kiriwas ( 627289 ) on Wednesday June 02, 2004 @11:52AM (#9315462) Homepage
    The most powerful SimCity bot ever created!! Oh, and I suppose it can be used for other stuff too.
  • by Marxist Hacker 42 ( 638312 ) <seebert42@gmail.com> on Wednesday June 02, 2004 @12:38PM (#9315969) Homepage Journal
    It doesn't surprise me. I've been saying for years that the algorithims used for network and resource optimization have real-world applications; that the reverse is also true is simple logic. Now- if we could only apply *nix resource allocation algorithims to food, clothing, shelter, and medical care; perhaps then we'd actually have an economy that works for the people instead of a people who work for the economy.
    • Of course, this will never work, because some people insist on eating lobster and steak, wearing armani suits, living by themselves in 50 million dollar homes, and paying extravagent fees for medical care. Just because they want to be better than everyone else.
      • And thus, they shouldn't be ALLOWED to do that, should they?

        Of course, I eat steak- but only that which my family raises ourselves- it's an entirely different experience when you know the name of the animal you're eating.

        Likewise with lobster- if you're willing to go to sea and catch it yourself, why should we stop you?

        But to spend public resources on private gain just because you believe you're better than everybody else- that's just stupid of society to fall for it.
    • Economy (Score:1, Offtopic)

      by nuggz ( 69912 )
      What is wrong with the current allocation system.

      Yes it doesn't allow equal distribution, however the key idea behind a capitalist free market IS the unequal distribution.

      Capital and resources flow to those which generate more value. This creates a net increase in total value.
      • Capital and resources flow to those which generate more value. This creates a net increase in total value.

        Under Capitalism that's true- but we no longer have capitalism, we have corporatism, in which capital and resources flow to those who can lie the best about generating more value while actually generating less value.

        Yes it doesn't allow equal distribution, however the key idea behind a capitalist free market IS the unequal distribution.

        Which also causes problems because it isn't needs based- quite
        • I agree, the liars can cause a problem, but this is an implementation issue, not a system issue. If there was greater depth and awareness this problem would go away.
          This is similar to democracy, a current problem is the uneducated electorate. If this problem was solved democracy might work a bit better.

          If an entity can not create more value then it consumes it should die. This goes for both companies, ideas and people. Harsh, but that is the nature of the system. It is also the way of natural selection.
          • I agree, the liars can cause a problem, but this is an implementation issue, not a system issue.

            That's kind of like saying that Microsoft allowing executable code in e-mail messages is an implementation issue, not a system issue. Idealy, the system should be engineered from the start to prevent parasites and viruses from arising to begin with. If it doesn't, then the system needs to be scraped and replaced with something better, just as many of us scrap Windows in favor of Linux.

            If an entity can not c
          • >>If an entity can not create more value then it
            >>consumes it should die. This goes for both
            >>companies, ideas and people. Harsh, but that is the
            >>nature of the system. It is also the way of natural
            >>selection.

            Isn't this precisely what happens when a company folds? It can't pay its bills because it can't generate any revenue.
      • There's a second problem with unequal distribution: it prevents freedom. I think that's what gets me about this whole subject the most. Part of this comes from just watching the new Sci-Fi channel interpretation of Huxley's Brave New World; happiness, not freedom, was the goal of that communist dystopia, and that's the goal of corporate capitalism as well. Keep the Betas, Gammas, and Deltas happy so that the Alphas can enjoy a life of luxury off of their work, right? That's the REAL meaning of the curre
        • The pay for labour in the other countries is lower, so you can more efficiently spend your money. The other point is that if there is enough demand for their labour, their wages will increase, this is already happening. Not equal yet, but it is coming.

          We have the same basic opportunities, it has just worked out that some people have been very successful.
          Bill Gates, Arnold Schwarzenegger are just two examples of people that have really gone quite far just from the opportunities presented.

          I understand the f
          • The pay for labour in the other countries is lower, so you can more efficiently spend your money. The other point is that if there is enough demand for their labour, their wages will increase, this is already happening. Not equal yet, but it is coming.

            Tell that to my bank- they haven't lowered my mortgage just because they're now using programmers in other countries. Sure their wages will increase- but yours and mine will decrease far more long before they get anyplace close to "EQUAL".

            We have the same
  • by PaulBu ( 473180 ) on Wednesday June 02, 2004 @12:54PM (#9316203) Homepage
    At the time when I was involved with preliminary design of HTMT petaflops supercomputer (yes, it is petaflops, as in million gigaflops, see, for example, here [caltech.edu]), anyway, one of the problems which would require a supercomputer with this this kind of performance was real-time optimization of car traffic in a city the size of Manhattan, NY.

    Paul B.
    • by AmericanInKiev ( 453362 ) on Wednesday June 02, 2004 @01:02PM (#9316315) Homepage
      So the question then is - how do you layout a city such that 10 million computer experts can all get to one place and design a super computer capable of calculating the design of such a city.

      Idea: remove the vehicle subsidy - which is killing trains, buses, and bicycles.

      Then you get mass transit.

      In the end - the real barrior to optimizing streets will be the arab oil cartells screaming about the loss of oil revenues to keep those compluters stuck in traffic burning up time, space, and O2.

      AIK
  • by AmericanInKiev ( 453362 ) on Wednesday June 02, 2004 @12:56PM (#9316228) Homepage
    Cities should layout their High Speed Bus (er Train) routes early

    This will provide the contract builders need to build high density housing along high speed corridors - rather than randomly.

    The key to getting commuters out of traffic - is only in part - optimizing their route.

    The real key is getting them out of their damn cars.

    (Electric Bicycle commuter speaking)

    AIK
    • Yes, that's all nice, but it doesn't help the many many *existing* cities any. They already have buildings sprawled all over the place.

      If you are encouraging building more NEW cities, then I have to totally disagree with you. We need to fix the ones we have somehow. You can't get people out of their cars unless you provide them with a humane way of alternate travel. Trains are good, provided they actually reach people (hard), and are not overcrowded like the subways in Toronto. I voluntarily worked an extr
      • You're Right - That is an excellent point.

        I suggest to do this - we

        1. Send everyone to europe for a 2 week manditory car cooling off period.

        2. After they come back - they can vote on a central carfree zone in their city.

        3. We have better technology now to bridge the gap between the limitation of mass transit (the last mile problem)

        SOME IDEAS:

        The city should lay down some serious linear transit routes - in order to encourage as much brownfield redevelopment, and density conversions as possible.

        Low den
        • 2. After they come back - they can vote on a central carfree zone in their city.

          I don't know about a totally car free zone, trucks still need to be able to make deliveries for instance. But we definatly need more walking streets like in Europe. Driving downtown in most cities is futile anyways, and walking streets add so much character and class to a city. :)

          The city should lay down some serious linear transit routes - in order to encourage as much brownfield redevelopment, and density conversions as po
          • by AmericanInKiev ( 453362 ) on Wednesday June 02, 2004 @02:30PM (#9317420) Homepage
            Thanks for your perspective.

            I think you may have glossed over a point.

            The City must establish LINEAR High speed transit corridors.

            Because only LINEAR transit routes can achieve - Rapid - as in faster than an SUV - transportation (After you figure in the cost of waiting around)

            Deliberate Haste doesn't mean kicking people out of their homes - it does mean allocating the region for change. - and insisting that any changes - result in higher density outcomes.

            Those neighbourhoods are nice precisly *because* they have no high desnsity housing.

            This is perception.
            When I was in Egypt I stayed in a resort - it was very high density - but also a very nice neighborhood. We had gardens, pools, beaches - well you get the idea.

            If cities would reward high density housing with resort grade amenities - they could reclaim their air.

            Sure - only one row of houses can really have a nice view - but the theory of shared resources says its better that MORE PEOPLE have this view than fewer.

            And housing does not HAVE TO completely ruin the natural beauty - there are aztec designs - and a variety of old world looks which have natural appeal.

            The most important task is to alter public opinion - that living near railroad tracks in tenement buildings is sexy.

            Making sexy trains, and sexy tenement grounds is the solution to clean air.

            AIK
          • I don't know about a totally car free zone, trucks still need to be able to make deliveries for instance.

            In Europe - Northern Germany (Oldenburg) to be exact - there are walking areas, and these rather samll delivery trucks come early in the morning.

            I'm not sure if there's a sticker - a time - or a general understanding - but I didn't see unnecessary vehicles - and it is clear that thetruck are on pedestrian turf - not the ither way around - which drastically changes the way they are driven

            AIK
            • In Europe - Northern Germany (Oldenburg) to be exact - there are walking areas, and these rather samll delivery trucks come early in the morning.

              Yeah, this is what I was referring to as a walking street. I think most european cities have such streets.

              But it wouldn't make sense to make, say, the entire downtown area of a city into a walking only area though. Some buildings like hospitals, banks, couriers, etc, need large deliveries throughout the day. So the walking areas would have to be chosen with thes
              • I agree (living 20 miles outside of Boston) Boston also has some very nice walking streets as well.

                What I don't understand is why we don't start building downwards.

                I would be perfectly cool with living in hive like structure underground that could have some natural light piped in, etc.

                Just sink a 150ft deep central galley and then run spokes off in 4 or 8 directions. At the end of each of these spokes would be a smaller shaft that went back to the surface. Off of each of these spokes build underground
                • I would be perfectly cool with living in hive like structure underground that could have some natural light piped in, etc.

                  Except that many people have SAD (seasonal affective disorder). They need LOTS of light or get massivly depressed. This would be VERY bad for them. I highly doubt you could get enough natural light down there.
                  • You could bring light down by light pipe. Ironically - I believe underground space could be made quite pleasant.

                    It would need to include large areas, and probably small ajoining rooms which open into large atriums - with surface light. That construction is quite appealling, and is often rendered by hotels above ground.

                    I worry that underground construction is more expensive.

                    AIK
                • There's actually plenty of space for people

                  What there is not - is plenty of education, energy, and air / water purification.

                  Underground saves you some energy - that's good.

                  Subways offer underground exchanges - which can include malls, food courts, and hotel lobbies - while at the same time reducing noise, air, and visual pollution.

                  Better that we should travel underground and eat crumpets with a view.

                  AIK

          • I don't know about a totally car free zone, trucks still need to be able to make deliveries for instance. But we definatly need more walking streets like in Europe.

            The zone could be enforced based on the clock like in some European cities. For example, the road barriers go down around midnight and come up around five. This allows for freight delivery, refuse pickup, street sweepers, etc.

    • by rewt66 ( 738525 ) on Wednesday June 02, 2004 @01:09PM (#9316416)
      I read somewhere an article where somebody from Chicago was giving advice to Seattle on their new transit system. The author said that the key to getting people out of their cars is rapid transit - defined as "faster than driving". Just having transit isn't enough. People will still take their cars because it's faster, which equates to more convenient. But if the transit is faster than driving, people are more inclined to take it.

      San Francisco added a nice touch to this with their BART system. In some places, they build the rapid transit right up the freeway median. When you're stuck in traffic on the freeway, and the train blows past you at 80 MPH, it tends to make you think, "I wish I was on that!"

      • Mod this Up.

        Often without saying it - That MUST be the effect of shared transit.

        This is the primary reason that buses suck.

        Buses must have HOV lanes to be a considered alternative.

        The other is the cost of parking - London has fees just for entering downtown.

        Cities should NOT provide subsidised parking.

        They should put that money instead into - as you say - Rapid Transit.

        AIK

  • by Chemisor ( 97276 ) on Wednesday June 02, 2004 @01:04PM (#9316335)
    Look at this city [carfree.com] design. Instead of trying to create better routing of commuters, it eliminates the whole problem of commuting.
    • This is a great site.

      We need to insist that carfree options are explored on an equal footing with highway expansion proposals.

      AIK
    • The secret to reducing commuting is. Put where you want to go near to (walking distance) where you are already.

      The real question is... How do we tack that concept on to already zoned and planned cities?

  • Object Oriented programmers are already aware of the congruence. Architect Christopher Alexander's books "The Timeless Way of Building" and "A Pattern Language" were the inspiration for the patterns movement in OO programming.

    There are important lessons in these books for both urban design and system design. Many architects and urban designers don't like Alexander because his approach is counter to the "power over" (top down) approach to urban design, but encourages supporting bottom up, "power with", design-while-building that is characteristic of vernacular architecture. The problem, as they see it, is that they can't start building until the design is complete - the support systems (as well as the permit process) require it. They're wrong in principle but right in practice, because that's how the support systems already in place work.

    Even when designers try to emulate the style of a village, it is still not quite like the real thing that grew over decades or centuries. However, perhaps automation could empower a kind of collaboration and serendipity so that a naive group of 'users' could essentially grow a design.

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