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Space Science

Hubble vs. Webb - How Far Back Will They See? 315

Roland Piquepaille writes "According to Forbes, reporting in "Peering Back At The Universe's Past," space telescopes are really acting as time machines. They can watch objects which are so far from us that light has taken billions of years before reaching their mirrors. The Hubble telescope is able to look at events that took place 13.3 billion light-years ago. But the James E. Webb space telescope, currently under construction, and scheduled to be launched in 2011, will be able to see even further and catch phenomena which happened 13.5 billion light-years ago. The astronomers think the Webb telescope might even be able to see up to 13.7 billion light-years ago, when our universe was just 200 or 300 million years old. We are used to see fantastic images from Hubble, without paying too much attention to the characteristics of the telescope itself. So here is a thorough comparison between the two space telescopes."
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Hubble vs. Webb - How Far Back Will They See?

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  • Light-Years!=Time (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 20, 2004 @06:39AM (#9202431)
    As I'm sure everyone will be quick to point out, lightyears isn't a measure of time, rather of distance.

    It is more accurate to say that the hubble could see images 13.3 billion years ago, and the Webb telescope may be able to see images 13.7 billion years ago.
    • by meringuoid ( 568297 ) on Thursday May 20, 2004 @06:47AM (#9202454)
      As I'm sure everyone will be quick to point out, lightyears isn't a measure of time, rather of distance.

      I know a man from Kessel who thinks differently...

    • hubble could see images 13.3 billion years ago

      Now that sounds even stranger. The telescope wasn't even built back then... Put the word "from" in the appropriate place to make it better, or start talking about distance and how far away the objects are instead.

    • Come one - slashdot editors regularly seem to believe that "foot", "ounce", "gallon" and "mile" are metrics used in the modern western world.

      If they could start changing the little things [gsa.gov], they can use light-year as a time measure for another year for all that I care ;)
    • More like Light Years=Uncertainty. Further the distance, the greater the uncertainty.
    • Re:Light-Years!=Time (Score:2, Interesting)

      by NumbThumb ( 468496 )
      you are right, of course. But: in this case, the time (in years) you are looking back is *exactly* the distance in light years (by definition of light year). I understood this as an intentional pun pointing out the equivalence (or, more precicely, correlation) of distance you look to time you look back. And, after all, Einstein taught us that time and space are just different sides of the same coin (well, hypercube, actually). so.... just loosen up, ok? don't take everything so litterally.
    • Re:Light-Years!=Time (Score:5, Informative)

      by alfredw ( 318652 ) <alf@[ ]ealf.com ['fre' in gap]> on Thursday May 20, 2004 @02:46PM (#9207115) Homepage
      As I'm sure everyone will be quick to point out, lightyears isn't a measure of time, rather of distance.

      Well, in a Newtonian sense, yes...

      Einstein will tell you that time = distance. You just have to use the proper conversion factor (c, the speed of light in a vacuum) to get your units right. In relativity work, we often use units where c = 1. Time and space then behave identically in the math and you don't have to do one thing for one dimension and something a little different for the other three.

      c, by the way, is exactly 299,792,458 m/s. EXACTLY. The meter is _defined_ as the distance a photon travels in exactly one second. (The second has a much more complicated definition)

      So yes, light-years measure distance. And they measure time.
  • Quick! (Score:5, Funny)

    by Pflipp ( 130638 ) on Thursday May 20, 2004 @06:40AM (#9202432)
    Somebody place a mirror on the other end!

    Then we can look into the history of our own Earth!
    • Re:Quick! (Score:5, Funny)

      by JosKarith ( 757063 ) on Thursday May 20, 2004 @06:42AM (#9202438)
      Yeah, then it'll get /.'ed, just like all mirrors eventually do...
    • Re:Quick! (Score:3, Interesting)

      by mphase ( 644838 )
      Using faster than light travel (not necessarily traveling faster than c but rather a form of travel which gets you from point A to point B faster than light would travel the distance) and a powerfull enough imaging device you could actually do it. By computing the correct distance and magnificaiton the device would need to be located to zero in on the correct time and then getting your viewer there before the light which started out at the period you wish to view (you would of course also need to find a cle
      • Re:Quick! (Score:3, Interesting)

        by HeghmoH ( 13204 )
        Let's assume there are some aliens out there who want to solve the Kennedy assassination for us next year. At that time, the light will be 42 years out. Assume they want to observe visual light with a resolution of half a meter, which should be enough for a skilled analyst to decide whether the guy on the grassy knoll is carrying a rifle or just a camera.

        Unless I flubbed up the calculations somewhere, which is possible, you'd need a telescope with a diameter of 480 million kilometers. Or you'd need two gig
        • Let's assume there are some aliens out there who want to solve the Kennedy assassination for us next year.

          What, they'll come down and admit they did it? ;-)

          Statistically speaking, it's more likely that they already know because they were there and saw it in real-time. Or that we could do like in The Light of Other Days [tor.com] (a good read, I recommend it) and peek back in time through quantum tunneling effects. Call Wesley [wilwheaton.net], he'll know exactly what to do.

      • Using faster than light travel

        ... to drop a camera X light years from us is a horrible kludge. FTL violates causality by definition, therefore it is physically equivalent to time travel [google.com]. You may as well just go back in time directly and observe our past at arbitrary closeness.

    • Re:Quick! (Score:5, Interesting)

      by TheTXLibra ( 781128 ) on Thursday May 20, 2004 @07:57AM (#9202647) Homepage Journal
      You know... I've actually given this some thought before...

      Say someday we managed to put out a large mirror...say... X number of lightyears from Earth, where X was half the number of years you wanted to be able to look into Earth's history. Here's what I'm curious about:

      1.) Assuming you could get the mirror out there and set up at light speed, it would make sense that the first image of the Earth we would get back was of the craft toting the mirror leaving Earth...well, actually, probably not, since it would logically take some pre-lightspeed travel first. But you get my drift.

      2.) Assuming FTL travel, could you actually see into a point in time before the point the mirror left Earth?

      3.) What size mirror would be needed for a telescope to be able to capture a reflected image? Would it even be possible? Perhaps with refraction from other celestial bodies (like they've done to enhance Hubble's distance viewing).
      • If you travel faster than the speed of sound, you get a sonic boom.

        If you travel faster than the speed of light, do we get a massive flash of light? Screw fireworks, soon we'll be having the military fly planes over on the 4th of July.

        • Re:Quick! (Score:2, Informative)

          If you travel faster than the speed of light, do we get a massive flash of light?

          Actually, you do. It's called Cherenkov radiation, and it's very similar to the way a sonic boom forms, with waves piling up. It's a kind of eerie blue light, I believe.

      • Re:Quick! (Score:4, Informative)

        by Doctor Fishboy ( 120462 ) on Thursday May 20, 2004 @10:39AM (#9203849)
        Heh. A cute idea.

        On point 3) though, you'll have a big problem. The diffraction limit of an apertures defines the smallest angular detail you can see, and for any appreciable distance from the earth, you rapidly lose any interesting information. You also have the problem that planets which are illuminated by their parent stars, which are up to ten billion times brighter than the light reflected from the planet's surface towards you.

        This is what the Terrestrial Planet Finder mission is trying to do - it is trying to see the light of other earth-like planets around other stars, and the diffraction effect for finite sized mirrors means that the light of a planet is buried within the diffraction halo from the parent star, by a few million times. Two proposed techniques to improve detection of planet light include nulling interferometry, and coronagraph optics.

        Interferometry takes the light from two widely separated telescopes and combines them such that the parent star light is nulled out whilst the planet light passes through (essentially a fantastically accurate spatial filter) and the coronagraph has a black disk flying in front of the telescope blocking the light from the central star.

        Dr Fish
      • Re:Quick! (Score:5, Informative)

        by mdielmann ( 514750 ) on Thursday May 20, 2004 @11:55AM (#9204688) Homepage Journal
        First, simplify your model. Assume someone else put a mirror far enough out to reflect the image you want to see. That gets rid of the question of what you see first (not the spaceship). It also negates the issue of the spaceship flying in an arc so you don't see it. Now, here's the problem: if you want to see 50 years back, and a mirror was put in place right now, you would have to wait 50 years to get an image returned. Total time to see image would be 100 years. If you put the mirror at 25 light years, you would see 50 years back at time of viewing, but would only see images from 25 years back at time of placement.

        The solution is to look for mirrors that are already in place (or put a large number of mirrors in place for future generations). This sounds absurd, but remember this: black holes can theoretically wrap light around at exactly 180 degrees at a given point from their centre. So we already have a number of mirrors out there. Now the big problem: black holes will have huge distorions around them, and very little light reaching them in the first place, so it's doubtful that you would be able to see anything remotely useful. This is also the problem with placing artificial mirrors: the light returned would be so small, that it would be useless. So much for looking back in time.
  • Distance Units? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by davew666 ( 555119 ) * on Thursday May 20, 2004 @06:41AM (#9202435)
    13.5 billion light years ago? Maybe I am being stupid, but I always thought that a light year was a measurement of distance?
    • Re:Distance Units? (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Branc0 ( 580914 )
      A light year is usualy the distance that light can travel in a year. Imagine that light travels 1 mile per year... if you are looking at something 5 miles away what you are seeing is not what is happening now but what happened 5 years ago.

      At least this is what I understand, I am not an Astronomer or Physicist.

    • light year is indeed a measurement of distance, ie, one light year is the distance travelled by time in a year.

      if one can see an object N light years far, then the particle of light meeting the eye (observer) travelled that N light years and the event being witnessed is of the time when the particle of light started travelling. Hence, light years far is light years ago - looking back in time.
    • Distance and time are the same thing (4-dimensional spacetime). Of course, the article is flawed in the sense that it's meaningless to talk of a view of "the past". Since you can't travel faster than the speed of light, it's as much the present to us as it is the past.

      A light year is a valid distance measurement since the speed of light is a constant. It's as valid as defining the distance between home and work as "10 minutes in my car travelling at a constant 60 mph".

      • by kmac06 ( 608921 ) on Thursday May 20, 2004 @10:43AM (#9203885)
        Why is this modded imformative? No, distance and time are not the same thing. When you're dealing with space-time, time can be thought of as a dimension in the same way the other 3 coordinates we all know and love are, but its not the same thing.

        Also, you're perception of the past is wrong. If I'm a light-year away from something and see something happening, I can say that in my reference frame, that happened a year ago. Someone travelling at speeds approaching c might disagree, but that's another story.

        And a light-year is a measure of distance. If you specify "the time it takes for light to travel a light-year" than you have a measure of time, but that was not what the original story poster wrote (although you could assume it since the telescopes are recieving light).

    • maybe this will help:

      it takes light from the sun about 8 minutes to reach our planet.

      this means that the sun could have blown up 7 minutes ago, but it will still appear normal for about another minute or so.

      then you will be toast.


      regards,

      sam
  • by Timesprout ( 579035 ) on Thursday May 20, 2004 @06:42AM (#9202437)
    if they could only see a few days back and tell me where I left my mobile phone.
    • If you were to invent faster then light travel, you could grab one of the US' satellites with the lasers that can scratch your ass, drag it out of orbit, travel a third a light year away and spy on yourself losing the phone.

      Presumably if they can scratch your ass from space, they must be able to see your ass from space, so it sounds reasonable that it could see your ass from further away. If not, bring binoculars.
  • by drizst 'n drat ( 725458 ) on Thursday May 20, 2004 @06:42AM (#9202439)
    I think the imagery provided by Hubble to date has been phenominal and expect that imagery from Webb will just as good or better. Looking back that far in the past though is just that ... the past. When we look back and see light that is 13.3, 13.5, or 13.7, or whatever billions of years old, it is exciting and adds more to the knowledge base. However, when I see galaxies that old I can't help wonder if they're still there (probably not) and what has taken their place. What's there now ...
  • by da5idnetlimit.com ( 410908 ) on Thursday May 20, 2004 @06:44AM (#9202443) Journal
    13.7 / 13.3 = 1,030075188 => 0.03 % performance increase with the new, latest, more expensive system.

    Nahh, I'll maybe void my warranty, but I'll just increase the fsb of my old Hubble...

    Anyone has tips on deep space overclocking ?

    • Wouldn't that be 3 %?
    • by blorg ( 726186 ) on Thursday May 20, 2004 @07:17AM (#9202535)
      13.7 / 13.3 = 1,030075188 => 0.03 % performance increase with the new, latest, more expensive system.

      As another poster has pointed out, it's actually a 3% improvement.

      The point is, that's only 200 or 300 million years from the very beginning of the universe, and it gets exponentially more difficult the further back you want to see.

      Rather than 13.7 vs. 13.3 billion years back from now, think 200/300 million years from the start versus 600/700 years from the start. That's a pretty good improvement.
    • by Tony-A ( 29931 ) on Thursday May 20, 2004 @07:29AM (#9202568)
      .03 is 3% but anyway

      Depends on how you look at it.
      3 nines to 5 nines is
      99.9% to 99.999% which is a .1% improvement.
      From the other end, .1% to .001% is a 10000% improvement.

      14-13.3 is 700M years after big bang
      14-13.7 is 300M years after big bang
      Better than 50% improvement (using Hubble as base)
      Better than 100% improvement (using Webb as base)

      The problem with percents is that they state one number and leave unstated the base for that number. Very little trickery is required to minimize or diminish importance without actually commiting falsehoods.
  • by Njovich ( 553857 ) on Thursday May 20, 2004 @06:44AM (#9202445)
    Not trying to offend, I'm genuinely interested. How do they know how far in time they can look with those telescopes? Have photons lost too much energy after that distance?
    • Re:Does this mean... (Score:2, Interesting)

      by bcmm ( 768152 )
      Yeah. You can.

      Look anywhere in the sky (after all, space itself has expanded from the point where it happened, so the big bang happened everywhere). There is still a faint glow. It has doppler shifted a lot, not due to motion but due to the expansion of the space it has travelled through. It's called the cosmic microwave background, and it causes a very small part of the interferance you can see on an untuned tv.
    • by gurisees ( 315528 ) on Thursday May 20, 2004 @07:27AM (#9202561)
      There are 2 main methods:

      the 1st one is called parallax (or triangulation) and consists on measuring the position of the star from different points of the earth's orbit (i.e., at different times of the year). The differences in the angular position are then used to calculate the distance of the object.

      For objects (stars) that are too far away to give a measureable parallax (more than 400 light years), an indirect technique is used. It is known that different kinds of stars have different emission spectra (colors), and every kind of star has a characteristic brightness. This has been proven by observation of close stars. This way one can analzye the spectrum of a given star and guess how bright it should be. Since the light emission of a star is a spherical wave, the theoretical attenuation of its intensity can be used to calculate the distance. This does not mean that single photons lose energy on their way: they don't. A photon's energy is related with light's frequency (color), while the apparent brightness of the star is related to the number of photons that get here. Since thay propagate as the surface of a sphere, the further you are the fewer photons you get per unit area.

      • by pomakis ( 323200 ) <pomakis@pobox.com> on Thursday May 20, 2004 @09:18AM (#9203081) Homepage
        the 1st one is called parallax (or triangulation) and consists on measuring the position of the star from different points of the earth's orbit (i.e., at different times of the year). The differences in the angular position are then used to calculate the distance of the object.

        BTW, this is where the term parsec comes from. An object in space is considered to be one parsec away if it appears to move 1 parallax-second in six months (when the the two observations are 2 A.U. apart because of the Earth's orbit). One thing that tends to confuse people about parsec measurements is that it's actually a reciprocal measurement. That is, an object that moves a 1/2 parallax-second is said to be 2 parsecs away, etc.

        • To make things a bit clearer, I should have used the term arc-second (i.e., 1/3600 of a degree) in my description, and pointed out that the term parallax-second is used to describe an arc-second of apparent movement caused by parallax.

      • by jpflip ( 670957 ) on Thursday May 20, 2004 @09:52AM (#9203375)
        Astronomers have a whole range of different ways to measure distances, each of which works in a different regime. They form a "cosmological distance ladder" - you attempt to calibrate each new method during its overlap region with the previous method.

        Parallax is the method for the very shortest distances (nearby stars).

        For intermediate distances (distant stars in our own galaxy, relatively nearby galaxies), most of the methods come down to finding some sort of "standard candle" - something that you know the intrinsic brightness of, so you can use its apparent brightness and the inverse square law to calculate its distance. Astronomers tend to use particular types of variable stars (stars with a well-defined cycle of brightness changes) for this purpose. For galaxies, you can sometimes use averaged properties of all the stars to estimate the distance.

        For cosmological distances (very distant galaxies) the most common trick is to use redshift. Because of the universe's expansion, an object twice as far away is receding from us twice as fast, and so its light is Doppler-shifted twice as much. Ideally, you look for known features of the object's spectrum and see what wavelength they have ended up at. This is what people are talking about when they measure the distance to Hubble's latest find.

        There is also a complementary method that uses standard candles at cosmological distances. In this case, you use Type Ia supernovae, a particular type of exploding star that looks pretty much the same every time. They're bright enough to be seen very far away, and again you can get the distance using the inverse square law (modified by general relativity). It's the difference between this method and the redshift method that provides the strongest evidence for dark energy - it shows us that the universe is expanding faster than we expect, and that this expansion is accelerating.
    • How do they know how far in time they can look with those telescopes? Have photons lost too much energy after that distance?

      There's a couple of parameters of interest here.

      First of all, when you're looking at objects a looooong way off, there's a question of how many photons you get to collect from that object per unit time. If you collect too few photons, anything you might see gets lost in the noise associated with your detector (your 'camera'). You can see stuff further away with a bigger primary m

  • Does this mean... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Phidoux ( 705500 ) on Thursday May 20, 2004 @06:46AM (#9202452) Homepage
    ... that we'll eventually see the big bang? Assuming of course that the theory of the big bang is correct.
    • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 20, 2004 @07:07AM (#9202507)
      http://www.astronomycafe.net/qadir/acosmbb.html

      Just for the record, the Big Bang theory is becoming as accepted in cosmology as the theory of evolution is in Biology.

      There will eventually be a limit to how far back we can look in time. The Big Bang itself will just appear to be an incredible brilliance everywhere.

      That same brilliance has cooled to the point that nowadays, it's only detectable as an almost-universal background microwave radiation.

      The detection of that radiation is considered one of the strongest "proofs" of the Big Bang theory, by the way.
      • "Just for the record, the Big Bang theory is becoming as accepted in cosmology as the theory of evolution is in Biology."

        So this will be an other theory that will not be taught in schools. I always find it funny how people confuse religion and science. And the "religious" people are picking over the details of their religion and not getting any of the true meaning.
      • Just for the record, the Big Bang theory is becoming as accepted in cosmology as the theory of evolution is in Biology.

        I'm being pedantic but....
        Its the idea that there was a Big Bang that is accepted by almost everyone, but there is no single universally accepted theory of how the Bing Bang banged and what happened afterwards. Did inflation happen? Did the speed of light change? Was the Bing Bang a singularity? Was there one Big Bang, or several? All these are subject to debate.
    • No. Because the big bang is part of our "own" past. That is, would we, or this place, or these atoms have existed at that time, it has already happened now. And you can't fly 15, 16 billion light years out faster than light (or instantly, rather), and then see the light from the big bang arriving. You can't see your own past. Hmm.. I'm not too good at explaining, but I hope you see what I mean.

      We can only hope to detect the effects of the big bang on parts of the universe that have been moving away from us

    • Re:Does this mean... (Score:5, Informative)

      by jemnery ( 562697 ) on Thursday May 20, 2004 @07:49AM (#9202621)
      No, sorry. There is a limit to how far we'll ever to able to see, and it's called our "light cone" [caltech.edu].

      John Barrow's book "Impossibility" has a nice description of this (and other limits).
    • If we can eventually see BEFORE the Big Bang, then I'll be impressed!
    • Re:Does this mean... (Score:3, Informative)

      by fishicist ( 777318 )
      ... that we'll eventually see the big bang?

      Nope. In the very early Universe, all the matter was so hot that it was completely ionised. That is, there were lots of protons flying about and lots of electrons, just doing there own thing. It turns out, that light interacts very strongly with free electrons, so any light that was around at this early stage (such as from the big bang...) would've bounced around so much that it no longer carried any useful information about earlier times. Kind of like tryin
    • I actually had this as a question on an exam in my college astronomy class about 12 years or so ago. The question was worded something along the lines of "Since the more powerful a telescope is the farther into the past is sees, it should be theoretically possible to build a telecope that can view the big bang.

      Pretty much everyone in the class said True. The instructor marked it wrong. His explaination was that there would have been so much heat generated during the big bang that the energy wouldn't be
  • by Kulic ( 122255 ) on Thursday May 20, 2004 @06:48AM (#9202456) Homepage
    is the fact that while Hubble can view things in the optical, James Webb will be looking at things in the infra-red. The two Wiki links (from the article) provide much more information.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Webb_Space_Tele scope [wikipedia.org]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubble_Space_Telescop e [wikipedia.org]

    Grr... /. is screwing up the text, but the links should still work.
  • by fbrain ( 758421 )
    I'm not a that great with science, but isn't the speed of light not actually a constant but changing with the expansion of the universe (only page I could find [space.com]).
    I know many people here are better at science (not to mention spelling, grammer, coding, e.t.c), than I am, so i ask does this not make a lot of these predications less accurate than they might think?
    • by pdxdada ( 684092 ) on Thursday May 20, 2004 @07:09AM (#9202514) Homepage
      isn't the speed of light not actually a constant but changing with the expansion of the universe

      Short answer no, longer answer we don't know. Pretty much all of modern physics is built off the idea that the speed of light is a constant. If you start changing the speed of light then all sorts of thing "break" like conservation of energy. So if you can change the speed of light, you could create matter out of nothing. Neat trick if you could pull it off. That said changing the speed of light does solve some nasty problems [amazon.com] surrounding the big bang.

      There's also the question that if the speed of light was changing if we'd even have any way of noticing because everything would be skewed along with it. Fun stuff.
  • Instead of 13.5 billion years back, why not make the mirror/etc a little bigger and see to the "beginning"? Or better yet, have the resolution to see farther than that, and see what happens? I'd be way more interested in that than a lame 500 million light-years farther than the hubble. Furthermore, is Arecibo unable to reach that far because of the atmosphere?
  • by Timesprout ( 579035 ) on Thursday May 20, 2004 @06:59AM (#9202483)
    Dear Sir,

    Some of us prefer the universe the way it is, more mature and filled out. I think its disgusting that these perverts want to spend so much money to ogle at the universe when it was a young hottie.
    No doubt they are also hoping to get a glimpse of some of the banging the universe got up to in the exuberance of youth.

    Shame on you all I say.

    Yours etc.
    Outraged
  • Orbit and location? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by MegatronUK ( 756725 ) on Thursday May 20, 2004 @07:01AM (#9202490) Homepage
    Hubble is 375 miles from Earth, the article has Webb listed as 1 *million* miles from us. Where is it going to be located, and how is it getting there? (I'm guessing that there will be no opportunity for service calls, as there was for Hubble!)

    -J
    • by Timesprout ( 579035 ) on Thursday May 20, 2004 @07:10AM (#9202517)
      It will be located at Lagrangian point L2 which as you say is a million miles from Earth. The logic being that gravity is equalised there so it wont move and its deep enough in space to reduce heat interference on the IR camera. Part of the project goal is to reduce operational costs as Hubble incurs 230-250 Million US a year to run so there are no service missions envisaged, it will be a standalone effort.
      • by Skye16 ( 685048 ) on Thursday May 20, 2004 @07:34AM (#9202575)
        And if it doesn't work, we're all just going to sit down and have a good long cry together.

        (I understand the logic, but I really like contingency plans...)
        • The Shuttle servicability contingency plans turned to be expensive though. I get the impression that there is was a resentment about having to service hubble every three years, but if it weren't for the plan, a $12B telescope would have been completely worthless. That said, if they didn't skimp on $800k worth of testing, a $500M+ repair mission wouldn't have been necessary.
      • by p3d0 ( 42270 )
        More importantly, it must be a standalone effort, because humans cannot get to the L2 point. It is more than 3 times farther than the Moon, and as far as I know, we can't get there either---not without resurrecting some rockets from the 1970s.

        Any service missions would need to be entirely automated, which probably makes them impossible.

    • by pease1 ( 134187 ) <bbunge@ladyandtr ... m minus language> on Thursday May 20, 2004 @07:37AM (#9202585)
      Webb will get there on a old-fashion rocket.

      Running Webb at L2 will save money. It's difficult and expensive to run a large space telescope in low Earth orbit (LEO). Observations have to be planned carefully since the Earth gets in the way for most of the sky every 90 or minutes. The satellite also has to have batteries to power the systems when the satellite/telescope is eclipsed by the Earth. Batteries are heavy, have to be recharged and they fail. Hubble's are failing. Large satellites in LEO slowly see a degeneration of their orbits because of drag from the very highest parts of the Early atmosphere. This requires them to be reboosted very so often. Any future service mission to HST needs to also reboost it.

      Finally, satellites in LEO - least ones in orbits like the one HST is in - have to travel through a radition belt every orbit that can cause electronics to fail and bits to flip. This sometimes causes the telescope to go into safe mode and ruins observations. While in safe mode, operations crews are standing around and more observations have to be either cancelled or rescheduled.

      Many of these problems are avoided at L2 or similar locations. Webb's life will be limited by the amount of sensor coolant on board, but space telescopes like the International Ultraviolet Explorer [etsu.edu] have operated for 20 plus years. IUE used a small crew, was easy to operate and produced more then 3,000 papers at a very low cost - a great return in value for tax payer.

      • What about replacing the gyroscopes? The fabled gyroscopes on Hubble seem to need replacing every few years. Are they using a different method or more reliable ones on Webb?
  • by pdxdada ( 684092 )
    I've got it. Here you've got a project that has produced some very good data and yet the creators have decided to stop maintaining it while they completely redo it from the ground up because they think the old base has gotten too "messy" to properly maintain anymore, disenfranchising the user base in the process. That's right all the signs are there, we must have just not noticed before, Hubble must be an open source project [jwz.org].
  • by jemnery ( 562697 ) on Thursday May 20, 2004 @07:22AM (#9202551)
    The article states that the new 'scope costs about the same as Hubble, but will only have a 10-year lifetime, while Hubble is expected to be in service for 20 years.

    Surely modern manufacturing etc should be able to improve on Hubble's lifetime for the same money? What am I missing?
  • by noktuo ( 699502 ) on Thursday May 20, 2004 @07:27AM (#9202564)
    ...is an interesting thing, but a problem remains: it can't see events in the present (at far distances, obviously).
    • Yes, time travel remains one of the greatest challenges in this technological era. Everything we see in space is in the past. Even Mars, if it just exploded a second ago it'll still take about 10 minutes before we see it happen. Even the moon, although the delay would be much shorter.
  • According to the comparison [weblogs.com] Webb is able to see 13.5 billion light years back in time, not 13.7. And Hubble able to see 13.3 not 13.5.
  • Time vs distance (Score:2, Interesting)

    by old_unicorn ( 697566 )
    I don't understand how we can see so close to the beginning of the universe, unless we have been travelling at a significant portion of lightspeed. Surely the light from events 200 million yrs into the length of the universe should have long since passed this point in space?
  • ... one make a telescope powerfull enought to see arround the curvature of the universe? Would it see our own future?

    • If the basic nature of time is cyclic as some scientists have postulated, then our future is our past, and this might just work.
      Oh god, does that mean I'm gonna have to go through high school, over and over again?
  • position in space (Score:3, Interesting)

    by acceber ( 777067 ) on Thursday May 20, 2004 @08:01AM (#9202656)
    Position in space:
    Hubble - 375 miles above our heads.
    Webb - 1 million miles away from Earth
    Being so far out in space, wouldn't this make the Webb virtually impossible to service?
    Servicing missions to the Hubble added about 4-5 years of operational life to the telescope and this was possible because being only a couple of hundred miles above the earth, it was accessible.

    Obviously, we are human and we can make mistakes. So what happens if there is a problem discovered on the Webb telescope after its launch?

  • by delibes ( 303485 ) on Thursday May 20, 2004 @08:09AM (#9202678)
    Some points in response to other posts.

    The orbit is about 1.5 million km distance from the earth, at something called the L2 Lagrangian. The Webb wiki page has a link to the Lagrangian page, but for the lazy people, it's here [wikipedia.org]. The orbit was chosen to keep the position of the sun constant relative to the telescope, so that the big 'parasol' can be used to shield the infra-red sensor.

    As for Hubble, it's been able to give some awesome images, but it has its limits. I was hoping that the JW (henceforth called J-Dubya?!) would be able to start spotting planets around other stars, but it's not designed for that. I'd like to know if it's theorically possible to keep both in orbit and use them in parallel somehow, in the same way that ground-based radio telescopes have been linked together in arrays. Probably not worth the hassle?

    The 'infra-red only' sensor troubles me. Since the telescope's aim is to study the Big Bang, the light/photons it'll be receiving will have travelled for a long time/distance and I guess be red-shifted way down to the IR band. This is all very well, but it means that the telescope shouldn't be considered as a replacement for Hubble, which carries out a wider range of observations.

    As an aside, I believe that there is a limit to how far back we can look. At some point, probably less than 1 million years (a guess, can anyone help?), the universe was just too dense for photons to travel around unhindered as they seem to these days. Who said it was better back in the old days eh?

    Now two questions. First why beryllium? I know that it's lightweight so easier to lift into orbit. Any other reasons? And secondly what happens if a micro-meteor hits this shield? Do we get a permanent bright spot on all subsequent images, like a broken pixel on an LCD display?

  • One catch (Score:2, Insightful)

    by kpogoda ( 580939 )
    This is still if we have the space shuttles still flying and there are any left by 2010.
  • I understand the concept of light reflected from an object that's been traveling for billions of years granting us a look into the past. But what I wanna know is, does this mean we are looking away from the center of the universe? I imagine the light furthest from the center would be the oldest.

    If this is the case, what do we get by pointing our telescopes toward the center? Is there some crazy ball of energy still expanding outward or something? (Assuming the big bang theory is right.)

    Oh yeah, I assu
    • by inkydoo ( 202651 ) on Thursday May 20, 2004 @09:27AM (#9203168)
      I'm going to butcher the explanation, but modern cosmology posits that there is no center to the universe in the way you mean.

      It's important to remember that at the moment of the big bang, there wasn't a universe outside of it. That is to say that when the big bang occured, it didn't expland into some already exisiting space, rather it was the space that was expanding. As such, all objects are moving away from all other objects.

      http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/nocenter.html
      has a decent drawing to illustrate how this leads to no "real" center.

      The other explanation that has always helped me picture it is to imagine the universe as an un-inflated balloon. In this model, we've reduced the universe to a two-dimensional, unbounded, infinite space in order to help us visualize this principle. Before inflating the balloon, mark several points with permanent marker, Now, when you inflate the balloon, you can see that each point grows more distant (over the surface of the balloon) from every other point you've marked and that the farther one mark is from another, the faster it moves away from it. From the point of view of a given mark, everything else is moving away from it, which would give the impression that it's at the "center" of the balloon's surface. At the same time, however, that impression would appear to be true for every other mark.

  • One day Hubble will find the Death Star - after all, it was long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away.
  • although (Score:3, Informative)

    by argStyopa ( 232550 ) on Thursday May 20, 2004 @08:53AM (#9202907) Journal
    It's not inconceivable to use it as a measure of the radius of a 'cone' of space time which can be viewed from a certain point. Kind of a synthesis of distance and time.

    In that sense, it's implied in almost ALL astronometrical comments like "we saw this 15 light years away"; it's are really saying "we saw this event happening 15 years ago because that's as recent as we can see anything from that target".

    So yeah, basically you're right, but it's faintly arguable.
  • by dmjones500 ( 781144 ) on Thursday May 20, 2004 @09:25AM (#9203151) Homepage
    Anybody else notice that Webb is expected to have a lifetime ten years shorter than Hubble?

    I'd have expected a more recently built telescope to last longer than an older one.

    Also, anybody have a clue exactly what happens when a telescope dies?? (Visions of Hubble slowly growing incontinent etc.....)

I have hardly ever known a mathematician who was capable of reasoning. -- Plato

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