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Newsflash: Gourmet Coffees Have Lots Of Caffeine 500

Evangelion writes "According to the Globe and Mail, gourmet coffees (Starbucks, Second Cup, etc) apparently have lots more caffeine than their non-gourmet competitors. One jumbo (20-oz) contains an entire day's worth of C8H10N4O2." Remember, for best effect, drink it through the day, not all at once.
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Newsflash: Gourmet Coffees Have Lots Of Caffeine

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  • I knew it! (Score:5, Funny)

    by Mz6 ( 741941 ) * on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @05:35PM (#9199120) Journal
    Hah! I knew it was true! Conspiracy Brother had it right all along! [imdb.com]
    • Re:I knew it! (Score:5, Insightful)

      by cshark ( 673578 ) on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @05:45PM (#9199240)
      I think the term no duh comes into play here. Starbucks and friends use coffee that is derived from espresso. Espresso tends to have more caffeine in it. I could have told you that. If you want to get angry, get angry at the soda manufacturers that put caffeine where it shouldn't be (unidentified citrus soda?) as a play to get you hooked. Last I checked oranges and corn syrup didn't naturally have caffeine in them. There was an expose about it on the local news here in Indy awhile back. They said it compares to what the tobacco industry does with nicotine. The only difference... Nobody really cares.
      • Re:I knew it! (Score:5, Informative)

        by Phurd Phlegm ( 241627 ) on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @06:14PM (#9199586)
        Starbucks and friends use coffee that is derived from espresso.

        Wrong. "Espresso" is a technique for producing a coffee beverage. It forces hot water under high pressure through tightly-packed grounds. Espresso *does* have more caffeine than brewed coffee, mostly since it is stronger. However, the article appears to be talking about ordinary brewed coffee.

        I must agree that "Charbux" coffee is extremely over-roasted. When Cook's Illustrated did a coffee comparison, their tasters didn't like Starbucks. When they had some people that work blending coffees check them out, their opinion was that Starbux beans were higher quality than the others, but they were so burned that the result was just plain ol' nasty. I'd give a reference to the article, but it's subscription-only. It [cooksillustrated.com] is clearly the nerd's cooking magazine, though.

        • Re:I knew it! (Score:5, Interesting)

          by Hatta ( 162192 ) on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @07:02PM (#9200014) Journal
          I must agree that "Charbux" coffee is extremely over-roasted. When Cook's Illustrated did a coffee comparison, their tasters didn't like Starbucks. When they had some people that work blending coffees check them out, their opinion was that Starbux beans were higher quality than the others, but they were so burned that the result was just plain ol' nasty.

          They have to do that to get consistancy. The point of the franchise is that everywhere you go in the country or world you get exactly the same product. They couldn't do that if they let the natural flavors come through.
        • No you don't! (Score:3, Informative)

          by mrklin ( 608689 )
          Espresso does not have more caffeine compared to drip coffee in general.

          I mention in general because espresso is more uniform in their bean selection (arabica), roast (dark), grind (fine) and method of extraction (less tha 20-25 seconds @ 8-10 bars of pressure). Compared to drip coffee which can be prepared in a variety of ways i.e bean (arabica or robusta), roast (light, medium, dark), grind (coarse to medium), and methods (ideal way is 4 minutes in french press but drip machines are inconsistent and so

        • ...dark. Some people like bacon that has been fried to a crisp, some people like to purposely burn their marshmallows over the campfire. Some people like the dark meat from the Thanksgiving turkey. Obviously it is a matter of personal taste.

          If "Cook's Illustrated" used words like 'so burned' to write off every variety of the world's most successful coffee franchise then I suspect that using sources who were in the business may have compromised the objectivity of the article.
        • All you need to do is drink another coffee every hour and a half from wake to sleep and you can code forever

      • Mountain Dew has no caffeine here in Canada. There is a law to the effect that drinks that contain caffeine must be brown(coffees or colas).
      • Re:I knew it! (Score:5, Informative)

        by Rostin ( 691447 ) on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @06:44PM (#9199893)
        This is a common misconception. The only difference between what is usually called coffee and espresso is method of preparation. The only drink Starbucks serves that fits your description ("coffee that is derived from espresso") is an Americano, which is made from pulling a shot (or two) of espresso and adding hot water.

        To make things clearer, most brewed coffee comes from a drip machine. Water at close to boiling is "dripped" through ground, roasted coffee.

        Espresso is a whole different animal. The water is a little warmer, and instead of dripping, it is pumped under about 9 bar of pressure through a puck of finely ground coffee. The ratio of coffee to water is also far higher (so it does have more caffeine on a unit volume basis).

        Commonly coffee intended for espresso is roasted a little darker than coffee intended for drip, but it doesn't have to be.

        Caffeine content in coffee (brewed by the same method, with the same degree of grind) has mostly to do with how it is roasted (darker = more burnt = less caffeine) and what kind of bean it comes from. It is usually claimed that robustas contain more caffeine than arabicas, and also that most premium coffees are arabicas. What's confusing is that Starbucks has a reputation for burning their coffee and presumably would use higher grade arabicas. *shrug*
  • PFFFTTTTT! (Score:5, Funny)

    by darth_MALL ( 657218 ) on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @05:36PM (#9199129)
    TH-th-th-that's a t-t-t-total load of c-c-c-crap! Stewardess! Another Venti! Now!
  • Makes me wonder... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by SCSi ( 17797 ) <(moc.tpedav) (ta) (suvroc)> on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @05:37PM (#9199137) Homepage
    if they do this on purpose, so they can hook you then make you come back to more.. Caffeine withdrawls suck, and if the home-made stuff isnt as potent, people are pretty much the slave of starbucks (or have to drink 2x more home-made coffee)...
    • there's plenty of 'gourmet' coffee available from non-starbucks vendors.

      which is good because starbucks coffee is really gross! burnt to a crisp before brewing, yuck!

      (and they make their employees work when sick. super)
      • by That's Unpossible! ( 722232 ) * on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @05:51PM (#9199312)
        which is good because starbucks coffee is really gross! burnt to a crisp before brewing, yuck!

        My dad (coffee connoisseur) always complains about their "burnt coffee," and I always thought he was just trying to describe the flavor... then I bought a bag of starbucks dark roast whole bean.

        No joke, that shit (or rather, those beans) are BURNT. They were also incredibly oily. Perhaps as a side effect of being burnt (fried? :)

        (and they make their employees work when sick. super)

        I'm afraid they don't make their employees do anything; they choose to work at Starbucks.

        However, if they don't encourage their sick employees to stay home from work, that would be rather gross.

        Personally I'll stick to my Dunkin' Donuts fresh ground coffee brewed in a french press (freedom press?).
        • by spun ( 1352 )
          French and Italian roasts are always 'burnt' and always oily, that is the nature of the roast. Some people like it. IMO, darker is better, but Italian is too dark. Full City Roast, where the beans are very dark brown, not black, and only have a small amount of oil on them, is the best. The distinct varietal flavor of the beans comes out more in a full city roast. Any lighter, and all you taste is the slightly grass-like flavor of raw beans, any darker, and all you taste is the smokey, bittersweet taste of t
      • by greenplato ( 23083 ) on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @10:24PM (#9201103)
        and they make their employees work when sick. super

        This is completely off topic, but I'll jump in with two feet... (I write as a former Starbucks partner with two years of experience from the bottom up to middle management)

        Fortune Magazine consistently rates Starbucks as one of America's top 100 employers. There is a reason; they offer excellent benefits, reasonable compensation, and a good working environment. On paper, if you look at the training programs and advancement opportunities within the company, it looks fantastic from the outside. Specifically, there are company (and health code) regulations that forbid sick people from working.

        However, these do no good within a company with an entrenched corporate culture that encourages and rewards dishonesty, bullying, cheating, and backstabbing. Unwritten rules always trump written policies making the job a joyless hell for some.

        Consider this scenario: you work at Starbucks part time, about 20 hours a week. This is the cut-off point for heath converage (a quite generous plan); partner must maintain 20 hrs/week to be eligible for this coverage. Sick leave is not available for hourly employees. So if you are sick you face the tough choice of working sick or losing your health coverage. The kicker is that managers are trained (in the informal wink and grin style) to keep many employees' hours close to this level and use this leverage to minimize employees calling in and disrupting the business. It's a devious crock but nobody has been forced to work while ill.

    • by ron_ivi ( 607351 ) <sdotno@cheapcomp ... s.com minus poet> on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @05:45PM (#9199235)
      Considering how successful tobacco, alcohol, soft-drink, etc. companies are, I'm almost surprised coffee shops didn't catch on to this "more caffeine gets people hooked faster" insight earlier.
    • by turnstyle ( 588788 ) on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @05:58PM (#9199388) Homepage
      "Caffeine withdrawls suck"

      Every so often I quit coffee, just to do it.

      Rather than quit cold, and get the nasty headaches, it's a heck of a lot easier to gradually reduce -- I start with my regular level, and then the next day have a bit more than half as much, and so on for a few days, till it's just a sip.

      Or, you can quit cold and get a wicked headache for a day or so...

    • by Stigmata669 ( 517894 ) on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @06:00PM (#9199421)
      I think the intention is less dubious than trying to "hook you" and more likely that people like the caffeine high, and are more likely to spend 3.85 for a latte if they get more of a high.

      I recently bought a pound of pure Arabica bean which has a very good flavor: no bitterness even in a very strong espresso. My mother who also tried the coffee immediately didn't like it because the caffeine content is much lower in the Arabica bean (most blends have Robusto(sp?) which is very high in caffeine and has a bad/bitter flavor) so she didn't get the normal buzz. "Does this coffee work?!"

    • Makes me wonder... if they do this on purpose, so they can hook you then make you come back to more.. Caffeine withdrawls suck, and if the home-made stuff isnt as potent, people are pretty much the slave of starbucks (or have to drink 2x more home-made coffee)...

      And if there is *any* evidence of this (and even if there isn't), I wonder about the possibility of mandated warnings and/or lawsuits. From the Globe and Mail article, Your morning habit holds chemical bomb [globeandmail.com]:

      In fact, a 20-ounce jumbo cup o

    • Whatever marketing drones came up with that notion are idiots. Coffee, while not as bad as cigarettes, is definitely an acquired taste for many people. The sip your girlfriend steals out of your cup is not going to be enough to addict them, no matter how much caffeine is in it.

      If you want to avoid caffeine withdrawal and also the jitters and hunger pangs of coffee's caffeine, switch over to green tea; not only does it prevent the nasty headaches and sluggishness, it doesn't make you vibrate at high frequ
  • by ducomputergeek ( 595742 ) on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @05:37PM (#9199142)
    After only 4 cups of the coffee house stuff (I like my $2.00 bottomless cup) and the entire pot of no effect from foldgers in my cup at home.
    • That doesn't really explain anything. I drink folger's at home (because it's a hell of a lot cheaper than real coffee) and it will buzz me up plenty even though I drink plenty of diet coke on a regular basis. Assuming that's really happening to you, you either must have some strange reaction to folger's, or you got a can of decaf by mistake. (Maybe a mislabeled can?)

    • How you can actually drink Folgers is quite beyond me.

      When I grew up, coffee came out of a two foot tall stainless steel urn (military special). It was nasty crap that required huge amounts of sugar just to choke down.

      Now that I'm a discriminating adult, I have my beans imported from Costa Rica [cafebritt.com] (discovered the brand by accident while on vacation down there). I just plain can not get near a cup of freeze-dried crap anymore.

      Do yourself a culinary favor; purchase whole beans, a grinder, and a good drip
      • Do yourself a culinary favor; purchase whole beans, a grinder, and a good drip coffee maker (or a French Press type for those in a hurry). You'll be glad you did.

        If you order green beans [sweetmarias.com] and roast them yourself [sweetmarias.com], you can take that experience to the next level, and even save a little money.

        I roast once or twice a week, and will never go back to buying pre-roasted coffees. There is a quality of freshness to the cup that I have only tasted in coffee I ordered directly from this roaster [espressovivace.com], who ships it the day
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @05:37PM (#9199145)
    one large at 8 am.
    another large at 10
    another at 12
    another at 2
    another at 4
    another at 6....
    • by frisket ( 149522 ) <peter@sil[ ]il.ie ['mar' in gap]> on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @07:41PM (#9200246) Homepage
      This is news?

      US "gourmet" coffee = normal coffee in the rest of the world.
      US "regular" (aka "brewed") coffee = undrinkable bat's piss.

      Of course it has more caffeine, that's what it's for...

  • Wait... (Score:3, Funny)

    by System.out.println() ( 755533 ) on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @05:38PM (#9199147) Journal
    Wasn't April Fools' Day LAST month?
  • I caan atttttessst ttoooo thaaatttt. Juussst goot baaacckkk ffroommm Staarbuccckksss...anddd myy haaandds aaaree shaaakiing......
  • Like 90% of people are aware of the sky is blue (most of the time),Microsoft still sucks,PearPC is still very impresive,Darl of SCO is a moron,etc... on the real now...who here didn't know coffe had lots of caffine in it?
  • Hah (Score:3, Funny)

    by iswm ( 727826 ) on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @05:38PM (#9199152) Homepage
    That's pretty funny that this is actually considered news. Only on slashdot will you find people excited about knowing which coffee has the most caffiene. On a different note; I'll be back from starbucks in a few minutes.
  • First Cup! (Score:2, Funny)

    by MoreDruid ( 584251 )
    that first cup in the morning gets me started... the bigger & stronger the better... you don't want to be around me if I haven't had my first cup...
  • Coffee or Espresso? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by jchenx ( 267053 ) on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @05:39PM (#9199162) Journal
    I wonder how many people actually drink straight up coffee at their gourmet coffee shops. It's been my experience here in Seattle (home to Starbucks) that most folks are ordering lattes, caramel machiattos, mochas, etc. than a regular cup o' joe.
    • by B1ackDragon ( 543470 ) on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @06:08PM (#9199528)
      Just so you're aware, according to the book Espresso by Petzke and Slavin-

      "Although most people assume espresso to be as strong as in caffeine as it is in flavor and aroma, it contains less than one half to one third of the caffeine in a cup of coffee brewed from robusta beans, the cheaper coffee beans used for canned coffee. Arabica beans, the high-quality beans used for espresso, have less caffeine. The dark-roast process, which concentrates the flavor of the beans used to make an espresso blend, also has the effect of burning off some of the caffeine content, so that the darker the roast, the lower the caffeine."

      Possibly not the best source of information, but for a book dedicated to the subject of espresso, its got to be pretty near the target. And I know what you mean, a lot of people drink fancy drinks as opposed to coffee, which I think actually requires a finer taste (well until you're addicted anyway, which might be the cause of the finer taste in coffee - the fact that we keep on drinking it.)
      • There are many sources that do in fact prove that beans prepared for use in espresso drinks contain less caffeine than cheaper beans.

        Also, you are correct that the dark-roast process will burn off some of the caffeine found in these beans.

        And, yes, when it comes down to it, ounce by ounce, "regular" coffee has more caffeine in it than espresso roasted coffee. However, we are all missing something very important here. This is BEFORE the coffee is brewed!

        When brewing an 8oz cup of coffee, you use about 1oz
  • I knew this for years. Most bad coffees use Robusta beans, which have far more caffeine than Arabica beans. In addition, the darker you roast, the less caffeine left in the bean, and incidentally, the more water weight you lose, so cheaper coffee is usually light roasted, resulting in more caffeine.
    • Wait... Gourmet coffees have MORE caffiene? That makes no sense. Contradicts what I learned working for a gourmet coffee roaster during college.

      Well, that'll teach me to post before reading the article completely (Hahahahah! As if!)
    • Most bad coffees use Robusta beans, which have far more caffeine than Arabica beans. In addition, the darker you roast, the less caffeine left in the bean, and incidentally, the more water weight you lose, so cheaper coffee is usually light roasted, resulting in more caffeine.

      And despite this head start, somehow the cheap brands still manage to lose the caffeine race to gourmet varieties.
    • You statement makes no logical sense. You are arguing the exact opposite of the findings.

      Starbucks and other gourmet houses use arabica beans. They are also dark roasted. So by your statement they should have less caffeine. The report states the exact opposite of your hypothesis.

      A can of Maxwell House, by contrast, is floor sweepings of robusta and the standard roast is very light. So again, by your argument, Maxwell House should be a caffeine bomb; but that is not what the report found.
      • It doesn't make sense, because I saw what I was expecting to see, not what was written. Nevertheless, my statement still stands, and I provide a link further down to back up what I said. All I can think of is that some chain gourmet shops are secretly using loads of Robusta beans to save money.
    • by JungleBoy ( 7578 ) on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @05:48PM (#9199272)

      I find that it doesn't matter what type of beans you use, as long as you make it with Water Joe [waterjoe.com] and grind up a hand full of NoDoze with the beans.

      Thats the sort of thing that gets me going... And probably leads to situations like my signature.


      -JungleBoy
      • by LS ( 57954 ) on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @08:17PM (#9200467) Homepage
        I know you are joking, but PLEASE don't eat too much caffeine. Here's an experience [erowid.org] by someone who took 16 pills:

        my sister and i decided to get what we thought might be a 'high' one night in december and nearly died. i decided to take 16 caffeine pills with a 200 mg amount of caffeine in each pill (equivalent to 2 cups of coffee) and drink a diet coke. my sister liked the idea because she thought it might be like speed. it was like hell. i shit three times i peed like a race horse about three times. i also thought maybe consuming some good h2o and some nourishing food might help but everything that went into my body came back up. i had an intense headache and body temperature that seemed to range from boiling to arctic freezing. i reached a point where i could not stop tremoring or shaking and my heart was pounding out of my chest. i really thought i was going to die. my sister had taken half the amount that i did and saw what i was going through. i had called an ambulance and was carried out in a stretcher and just about bounced out out of it from being unable to keep still. on the way to the hospital i blacked in and out and the blackouts got longer and longer. i was given numerous amounts of shots and hooked up to hooplas of equipment and was told to drink charcoal or i would die. my sister, i later found out went through the same thing just when i was hooked up to all of the monitors and what not. we were both told that we could have died from the amount of caffeine that we had taken.

        my reason for telling this to whomever is reading it would be, be aware of what how much something can do to you. i just thought i would be very awake. it turns out i was almost asleep permanently.
    • Googled 'robusta arabica caffeine content' and this [coffeeresearch.org] was the first on the list.

      Maybe the gourmet coffee shops are actually mixing Arabica (the good beans) with lots of Robusta (the icky tasting beans.)
    • That's part of the explanation. The other part is that most "gourmet" coffees are actually being made as an espresso or Turkish/Greek coffee. In both cases, the grounds are extracted using a relatively low amount of really hot water, in the case of espresso also pressurized. This results in far more efficient extraction of fatty fractions (containing caffeine but also cholesterol) than with regular filter processes where sometimes tepid water is being slowly dribbled over (indeed often cheaply made) grounds
    • I knew this for years. Most bad coffees use Robusta beans, which have far more caffeine than Arabica beans.

      What you say seems to be true [2basnob.com], but it certainly doesn't seem related to the article summary, which claims that more expensive coffees contain more caffeine, despite the lesser caffeine quantity in arabica beans.
  • The Real Story (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Marxist Hacker 42 ( 638312 ) <seebert42@gmail.com> on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @05:42PM (#9199206) Homepage Journal
    The dose of caffeine in a cup of coffee depends on several factors, including the type of bean, the duration of brewing and the amount of grounds used in a coffee machine.

    Gourmet coffee shops use about two tablespoons of grounds for every six ounces of coffee made -- about double the amount used at a donut shop or in a home machine.


    And I thought they were genetically engineering new beans- no, it's just how a true esspresso machine works....I can believe this- I've got a friend with one of the original Italian machines, and an 8-oz cup of his coffee gives me the shakes (this from a guy who used to get through programming assignments at OIT by dropping a vivarin into a 2 liter bottle of Mountain Dew).
  • I know we make jokes on Slashdot about the usefulness of caffeine as a geek stimulant and all-round pick-me-up, but I'm pretty sure it's better to have less caffeine in your coffee as opposed to more.
    • Actually, I would rather have to drink less than more. It's less liquid in my system, which means I have to pee less. This is important because I always seem to have to pee when I'm on a roll coding.
    • I personally don't do caffeine. I was physically addicted pretty bad back in college, so much so that I *needed* caffeine every 2 hours, otherwise I'd get a splitting headache, and I needed some to get to sleep. I realized that that was probably not a good thing, so I quit. Withdrawl for me was 2 days of headaches and nausea, and I haven't gone back since.

      Personally, I think that caffeine is a bad thing. It's been linked to a few long term problems, such as heart problems. And it makes sense that peop
  • Not too plausible (Score:4, Informative)

    by jmcharry ( 608079 ) on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @05:42PM (#9199210)
    There may be a lot of caffeine in a 20oz cup, but for an equal volume gourmet coffee should have less caffeine than the cheap stuff. The reason is that it is pure arabica, while utility grade coffee contains large amounts of robusta beans. Robustas have a lot more caffeine than arabicas. That assumes, of course, that the cheap coffee is not also brewed weaker than it should be.
    • RTFA- it's not the beans, it's the method of brewing that makes the difference. Those huge piston press coffee machines squeeze and steam the flavor and caffine out of the grounds- and use twice as many grounds as your home coffee machine.
  • by maynard ( 3337 ) on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @05:42PM (#9199212) Journal
    Buy a coffee roaster and green beans in bulk from Sweetmarias [sweetmarias.com] (I have no connection with them other than as a satisfied customer), and then buy a good espresso machine like the Rancilio Silvia [coffeegeek.com], then enjoy the best damn espresso drinks in life for less than $.50 cents a shot. And who the fuck is worried about caffeine overdosing anyway? If you're heart doesn't palpitate, you haven't had enough!
  • by Fbelch ( 9658 ) on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @05:43PM (#9199216) Homepage
    Ermm... I guess with too much caffeine, you won't get the grammer right on the first time too!

    Yet, scientists are far from unanimous on the health impacts of coffee, and caffeine in particular.
    Research has shown that caffeine -- a bitter white substance found in many plants -- can cause spikes in blood pressure, and contribute to osteoporosis by depleting the bones of calcium.
    But there is also evidence that coffee drinkers are less likely to develop serious health conditions, including diabetes and Parkinson's disease.
  • by swb ( 14022 ) on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @05:45PM (#9199236)
    The article seemed to indicate that because they use 2 tbsp coffee per cup brewed, you end up with more caffeine than other coffee. Is that all there is to it? "GOURMET COFFEE USES MORE COFFEE AND IS THEREFORE STRONGER." Well, duh. Insert $obligatory_canadian_intelligence_insult.

    I thought perhaps there was some conspiracy where they were doping coffee with extra caffeine or something.
  • by ld_hrothgar ( 755793 ) <ld_hrothgar@@@yahoo...com> on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @05:45PM (#9199243) Homepage
    It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed,The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning, It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
  • Give me a quad compana (espresso w/ whipped cream) and a shot of white chocolate. Think of it as a concentrated Quad White Mocha, at half the price!

    Ah...

    Tim
  • Heh (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Auckerman ( 223266 ) on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @05:46PM (#9199255)
    We have a locally owned cafe that roasts their own coffee. Their "House Blend" (mostly South American beans) has added caffine, this is advertised as a positive thing. It sells quite well. I'm a African coffee person myself, so it's never appealed to me.
  • Gourmet? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Bilestoad ( 60385 ) on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @05:46PM (#9199256)
    Gourmet Coffee? Starbucks!?

    What is wrong with you?

    (and are you really surprised that a business that aims to have a store on every street corner in the world (according to the CEO) and doesn't mind achieving that by forcing existing stores out of business would learn something from the tobacco industry?)
  • by blackmonday ( 607916 ) on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @05:47PM (#9199269) Homepage
    Someone just dared to call Starbucks a gourmet coffee. Stay in your seats, the coffee nazis will be arriving in 3...2...1...

  • That's quite odd, as gourmet coffees are typically arabica, which tends to have less caffeine than robusta. Robusta also tends to be much cheaper than arabica. Most generic, commercial, cheap coffees have a bit of robusta in the blend to give them that extra kick. My expectation would be that cheap coffees contained more caffeine.

    However, with all the varieties of arabica coffee available and the various extents to which they are roasted, caffeine content can vary a fair amount from coffee to coffee.
  • by TheTXLibra ( 781128 ) on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @05:50PM (#9199292) Homepage Journal
    You know, I can accept a certain status-quo hatred of Seattle-area based MegaCorps like Microsoft, Barnes & Noble, and so on... They are hated, for the most part, because they have money that the haters do not. There are other reasons to be sure, but it all amounts to the fact that they represent The Man, and hating The Man is en vogue.

    Why then, do so many die-hard penguins and independant bookstore shoppers insist on supporting Starbucks? If coffee has an archetypical "The Man" figure, who has way too much money, produces shoddy goods, and destroys good quality companies with its monopoly-like tendancies, it is Starbucks. They put great coffee houses out of business, the kind that you may have met some of your best friends at. They use inferior beans, cooked at too high of a temperature, for too short an amount of time, just to increase output. That's right, you're drinking a bean that was treated worse than those poor saps on WB's Superstars.

    Why God? Why of all people, do you, "The Man"-hating intellectuals, actually give them your business?
    • You're right. It's wrong for a company to put together a business model, work hard over the years, be competitive, and ultimately succeed. It's fine to support a company, so long as they're not greatly succesful and have locations in more than one county.
    • by IO ERROR ( 128968 ) <errorNO@SPAMioerror.us> on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @06:35PM (#9199808) Homepage Journal
      Why God? Why of all people, do you, "The Man"-hating intellectuals, actually give them your business?

      Starbucks hasn't really hurt the local coffee houses at all, from what I can see actually living in a town where Starbucks recently arrived. The coffee house I am always found in has one big advantage over Starbucks: free Wi-Fi. It's always full in here and sometimes hard to even find a seat. Maybe even more so since Starbucks opened.

      From the Iowa City Press-Citizen [press-citizen.com]:

      A new stand-alone Starbucks store is not the only change that downtown Iowa City patrons will notice on the coffee front later this month.

      The downtown Java House, 211 1/2 E. Washington St., is in the process of a $250,000 renovation to improve customer service, reduce waiting times and add seating options.

      "We are doing a remodel, but it has nothing to do with Starbucks coming and everything to do with us stepping up our service," said owner Tara Cronbaugh, adding that renovation plans for the 10-year-old coffeehouse have been in place for several years. "We are in our last phase of renovations. Our only goal is to improve the speed of service."

      Work on an extended coffee bar, which includes two more slots for brewed coffee, an additional register, a second espresso machine and more seating, should be complete by the time University of Iowa students resume classes for the spring semester Jan. 20.

      Developer Marc Moen said the new Starbucks store at 228 S. Clinton St., eastern Iowa's first stand-alone location, should open about the same time.

      "They look like they are ready to roll," Moen said, adding that he heard drinks will start flowing Jan. 20.

      Cronbaugh said she is not worried about Starbucks' expansion into Iowa City and thinks it will strengthen the specialized coffee scene.

      "Long-term, I think it's a good thing for the industry," she said. "And I think downtown is loyal to its local businesses."

      David Meyers, co-owner of Terrapin Coffee Brewery, 257 E. Iowa Ave., agreed.

      "Starbucks will make the game fun," Meyers said. "It will be really interesting to see how they play."

      Meyers opened the downtown Terrapin with his brother, Robert Meyers, on Oct. 21, 2002. He said they are not planning store renovations but will expand their menu this month.

      "There will be additional hot teas, desserts and other complimentary items," he said. "The reasoning is that we have been here over a year and we are taking our natural form."

      The first of the Java House renovations began in July 2002 with a new window bar in the front of the store and an expansion to the service area.

      Cronbaugh said crews made the majority of the Java House's recent changes on Christmas and the day after. In addition to expanding the front portion of the coffee bar, Java House crews are removing the elevated platform across from the coffee service area and replacing it with alternate seating options.

      Officials also will add tables in the back of the coffeehouse, and Cronbaugh said the store will be able to accommodate a total of 18 to 20 more patrons.

      Although Cronbaugh said she has not planned any immediate changes to the other Java House locations at 713 Mormon Trek Blvd. on the west side of town, 1555 S. First Ave. on the east side, and 15 S. Dubuque St. above Prairie Lights, she is planning to implement a new pre-paid card system linking all the stores.

      The pre-paid coffee cards will allow regulars to pay a lump sum and subtract each purchase from the card as they purchase beverages or food items.

      "They can use it so they don't have to get out $3 all the time," Cronbaugh said.

      To accommodate changes, the downtown staff will increase by 10 employees and the east- and west-side stores will each add two to three workers.

      Cronbaugh said she doesn't anticipate any price increases and said the last time she made cost adjustments was in October based on economic changes.

      "We increased espressos, teas, anything having to do with milk cocoa or tea," she said. "But our brewed coffee stayed the same, our bakery line stayed the same."

    • Honestly, because good local cafe hold their own just fine against Starbucks -- I live in downtown Sacramento (California), which is not exactly a cultural hotspot, and every cafe, indepenent or Seattle-borne, is filled pretty much every night of the week. In fact, the non-Starbucks do much better than the Starbucks do -- I can usually find a table at Starbucks on Tuesday night, whereas at Naked Coffee, it's almost standing-room-only, and Naked has more tables to boot.

      In addition, Starbucks doesn't act li
    • by dghcasp ( 459766 ) on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @07:51PM (#9200299)
      I have to put on my MBA hat to answer this one... [1]

      Branding and perceptions. Starbucks took a product that you used to pay under $1 for (coffee) and charged you upwards of $3 for it.

      Why did people buy it? For the fringe benefit - You and your friends could go to a local Starbucks and hang out for several hours for that $3. There weren't a lot of other places where you could really do that... Bars are too noisy to have conversations, and restraunts want to flip your table and get the next person in.

      Eventually, a perceptual association forms: Starbucks == good times with friends. And since you buy coffee anyways, you get in the habit of buying their coffee just for yourself.

      You take the cup to work. Everyone sees it (free advertising.) The more people are seen toting Starbucks cups, the more other people want to figure out what the "buzz is."

      Then, of course, they expanded like a watermellon dropped from a 747. Now, everywhere you go, you pass a Starbucks. It becomes just too convinient to drop in and pick one up. It becomes too convinient to call a friend and say "I'm at the Starbucks on 7th S.W. - come on over."

      Now, people continue to patronize because they've become comfortable with the brand.

      [1] I actually do have a hat that says "MBA" - I got it on the first day of my program. I guess they figured it softened the blow of the tuition bill... "Hey, you get a hat."

  • Coffee - a great tasting addictive drug, that's legal and trendy to boot!!! What a great busine$$ to be in. Guranteed repeat customers. If there weren't so many coffee joints already (I live in WA) that's the first business I'd start.
  • Obligatory Plug (Score:5, Informative)

    by 4of12 ( 97621 ) on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @05:52PM (#9199329) Homepage Journal

    for Fair Trade Certified Coffee [globalexchange.org]

    Consider choosing to pay a little extra for your coffee to encourage sustainable agriculture, preserve rainforests and help out the long term social fabric of coffee growers and their families.

  • by Fiz Ocelot ( 642698 ) <baelzharon.gmail@com> on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @05:55PM (#9199357)
    "There are certain advantages to caffeine but, after 300 milligrams [daily intake], you start getting into health problems," Dr. Marcone said."

    Ok so 300 is the upper limit. But...

    Health Canada recommends that adults limit their consumption of caffeine to 400 mg daily -- the equivalent of about four small cups of coffee.

    So Canadians think it's ok to drink 33% more than is healthy? And yet, they try not to call it caffine addiction. Interesting.

    • by GraZZ ( 9716 ) *
      Dr. Marcone works for U of Guelph. He's citing his own studies most likely. The Health Canada limits are probably not based on his studies.
    • by azav ( 469988 ) on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @06:06PM (#9199488) Homepage Journal
      Living above the border you have to acclimate yourself to a higher latitude. The days have less sunlight and therefore the upper limit of caffeine is higher.

      Contrary to popular belief, the effect of caffeine is not hindered by cold weather nor is the Canadian metabolism less efficient as their brethren below the border.

      It has been surmised that the greater daily beer consumption by the average Canadian may also contribute to the higher maximal dose of caffeine.

      This is a recently established medicated fact.

  • So I buy a large, and carry it with me all through the day - in meetings, lunchtime-sports, et al?

    No thanks, I'll prefer to drink my coffee all at once. Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I still want my dose of caffiene at one go.
  • Green Tea (Score:5, Informative)

    by azav ( 469988 ) on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @05:58PM (#9199395) Homepage Journal
    I drink about 20 Oz of green tea a day and I admit, the caffeine and other teaish goodness is liquid motivation.

    It seriously can be rocket fuel and wears off smoother than coffee does.

    The tea I use needs to be purchased specially at a Chinese tea store and is not prepackaged. It is White Dragon Pearls. Little rolled balls 1/4 of an inch in diameter with young tea leaves and flowers.

    I'll put about 40 balls in a 20 Oz glass Campbells soup jar - or a mason jar and nuke for 3:30 to 4 mins. Then let it sit till it is golden - 10 - 15 mins. Filter the Tea into another 20 Oz glass and sip away. Save the leaves because you can generally brew another batch out it this. This tea does not get bitter and you can sip it all morning and into the afternoon.

    The stuff is about 40 bucks a pound but that's about 1/2 to a whole year of tea. A bargain at any price.

    And it makes me motivated AND feel good about the world. At least till it wears off. Then it's back to my unibomber style shack and dreams about getting rid of that principal Skinner.

  • .... caffeine is one of the four basic food groups.
  • Er... No. (Score:4, Funny)

    by lakeland ( 218447 ) <lakeland@acm.org> on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @05:58PM (#9199402) Homepage
    Remember, for best effect, drink it through the day, not all at once
    No, for best effect, drink it all at once, and keep reordering through the day.
  • The coffee houses say their goal is better taste, not developing caffeine dependency.

    Yeah, right. I seem to recall Phillip Morris making a similar argument.

  • by kedalion ( 745252 ) on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @05:59PM (#9199416)
    Last year, I wrote a summary of several psychological papers that used caffeine in their experiments. It seems there is a "sweet spot" where the level of caffeine has the best affect on alertness. When you drink a cup of coffee, the caffeine level jumps up rapidly and is well above the optimal dose. As the body disposes of the caffeine, there is a brief (30-45 minutes) period where the level is in the optimal range. The best results were not from caffeinated beverages, but from a time-released caffeine capsule. It keeps the levels perfect for hours. I haven't been able to track down which pharmaceutical company manufactures them and where I can buy them. If anyone knows, let me know!
  • by Komi ( 89040 ) on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @06:00PM (#9199422) Homepage
    Drink coffee - do stupid things faster!
  • I can see it coming. Someone crying, "The coffee industry misled the public about coffee's addictive properties and increased the caffeine dosage to secure market share in spite of well known health risks."

    And something equivalent of the Tobacco industry lawsuits...
  • by earache ( 110979 ) on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @06:23PM (#9199695) Homepage
    Having a serious 10 year caffeine problem, on the order of 12 to 16 shots of espresso a day, I developed an "allergy" to caffeine which in turn caused Generalized Anxiety Disorder.

    After a battery of tests, I was told that my intake of caffeine was causing excess adrenaline production, hence a constant state of anxiety.

    Now I take three klonopin a day just to feel normal.

    I still drink coffee though, the decaf variety, but every once in awhile the idiot at the coffee shop fucks it up and gives me a caffeinated beverage. Suffice to say, it can be a day wrecker. Dizziness, fainting sensations and general physical sensations of imbalance.

    No fun.
  • Illegal coffees? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by babyrat ( 314371 ) on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @06:43PM (#9199891)
    From the Coffee FAQ [coffeefaq.com]


    Is there a legal limit for caffeine content?

    The answer to that is it depends on the country. A few examples of laws related to caffeine content for food and drinks include the following:

    In the United States there is a limit of 6mg of caffeine per liquid ounce in beverages. There is also a limit of 200mg in pills such as Vivrin.

    From, article, a 20oz coffee has 400 mg of caffeine, or 20 mg/oz - so would it be illegal for Starbucks to sell that same coffee in the States?

    Who knows, maybe the coffee FAQ is wrong...but it was on the internet so it must be true!

  • by TheMohel ( 143568 ) on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @07:13PM (#9200077) Homepage
    In fact, a 20-ounce jumbo cup of house blend at Starbucks or Second Cup contains almost 400 milligrams of caffeine -- the upper limit of what Health Canada says an adult can consume healthily in a day.
    ...
    "There are certain advantages to caffeine but, after 300 milligrams [daily intake], you start getting into health problems," Dr. Marcone said.
    ...
    Problems arise, he said, when people cut back. "You develop headaches, you are irritable, you seek caffeine to relieve those adverse effects," Dr. El Sohemy said.
    ...
    Health Canada recommends that adults limit their consumption of caffeine to 400 mg daily -- the equivalent of about four small cups of coffee. The health regulator says that because of its diuretic and stimulant properties coffee can cause insomnia, headaches, irritability and nervousness.

    Okay, as a physician and a caffeine user I just have to comment. I have no idea where they came up with their 400 mg/day cutoff, but it wasn't from any published data I've seen. Public health nannies have been looking for something bad about caffeine for decades. From "It'll stunt your growth" to "it'll rot your bones" they keep looking for some reason why we shouldn't drink coffee.

    The facts, unfortunately, are quite contrary. Caffeine is a drug, albeit a very benign one. Yes, you can overdose on coffee. A truly unpleasant experience, but one that is quite survivable (in large part because coffee doesn't carry very much caffeine compared to the dangerous dosing). You can overdose on No-Doz too, and that actually is more dangerous because you'll get more in before you start feeling it. Neither, however, is seen very often in actual emergency practice (other ingestants, like alcohol or Tylenol, are MUCH more dangerous in moderate overdose).

    Caffeine increases alertness and learning. It's been reliably shown to improve test scores (especially for those of us who can't think without it). Interestingly, large public-health studies have correlated a high caffeine intake with decreased gallstones and with a markedly decreased incidence of type II diabetes, although I'm not fool enough to call it causality when I only have correlation.

    And that's it. No increased cancer risk (they checked). No increased hypertension (they checked). No increased risk of coronary artery disease (they checked). No increased risk of psychiatric disease (well, okay, I didn't actually read that one, but most of us in THIS forum came by our psychopathology in other ways anyway).

    Doctors are not the world's best source of public health information. They live lifestyles that make programmers look positively healthy (I know - I do both professionally). Still, doctors don't smoke any more (seriously - it's down to a few percent) and they don't drink to excess the way they used to. Drug use is relatively uncommon (although not unheard-of, unfortunately) and seriously frowned upon. But caffeine is ubiquitous in the hospitals and clinics, and there's a good reason. Compared to the stress of getting through the day without it, most of my colleagues share my basic view, which is that there are few Good Things in this world, but coffee is definitely one of them.

    • No increased hypertension (they checked).

      I'm an insurance agent. If you skip your morning coffee before a paramedic exam (typically administered when buying large face amounts of life insurance), your BP reading will be 5-10 points lower than if you don't skip it.

      I checked that one personally. I can believe that long-term usage doesn't necessarily increase hypertension, but the short-term effects certainly would make it appear to!

      BTW, as I mentioned elsewhere, Science News [sciencenews.org] ran a recent article on co
  • by tyrione ( 134248 ) on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @07:49PM (#9200288) Homepage

    First, Biological Science twenty years ago warned of the dangers of Caffeine and now are discovering those findings were either falseified or flat out, due to their lack of "science", dead wrong.

    Secondly, ever hear of Green Tea part of the day and Coffee another part of the day? I don't get headaches from coffee withdrawals.

    Thirdly, how many of you drink over 1 US Gallon of water per day? I do. Believe me it sure dilutes the potency of the Caffeine. Here is a hint: If you suddenly feel warm and clammy, go pound 32 ounces of H2O.

  • by MidnightBrewer ( 97195 ) on Wednesday May 19, 2004 @09:29PM (#9200844)
    Even so, research conducted in the United States shows that gourmet coffee customers are fiercely loyal. More than one in every eight patrons of gourmet coffee shops visit four or more times a week, according to the market-research firm Mintel International Group.

    This person has obviously never drank coffee in the United States. American coffee, when not served too weak, usually tastes like battery acid (or, in culinary terms, "robusta," apparently.)

    I had to realize the article was from a Canadian paper before I could understand why they were making such a big deal over gas station and donut shop coffee being weaker. In America, that is not only the norm, it barely rates above "hot water that somebody has dipped a dirty rag in."

    People, American coffee sucks. I never knew this until I lived in Germany, where the coffee you buy in your supermarket is incredibly superior for the same price as American store-bought coffee. I had to defend American coffee to my German friends because I had no idea what they meant by our coffee being weak.

    Heck, here in Japan, they sell coffee in "regular" and "American" styles, where "American" is used synonomously with "weak." I've even had the waitress at a restaurant, unprompted, apologize to me that the only coffee they have to offer is American.

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