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Space Communications Science

Amateur Rocket to Carry Ham Radio Payload to Space 222

Posted by michael from the estes-all-out-of-D-engines dept.
n1ywb writes "An amateur rocket team this month will attempt to send a 21-foot-tall rocket carrying a ham radio avionics package into the fringes of space. The launch by the Civilian Space Xploration Team (CSXT) could occur as early as Monday, May 17. Some 20 months ago, the last CSXT try to reach space ended some three seconds after launch when the rocket's engine exploded. Avionics Team Leader Eric Knight, KB1EHE, says CSXT has since rebounded from that devastating blow with a newer, bigger vehicle. In terms of Amateur Radio, the GoFast rocket will transmit telemetry on the 33-cm amateur band and Amateur TV at 2.4 GHz using a high-quality color camera. The avionics also incorporate multiple global positioning system (GPS) systems to record the vehicle's precise location and flight path, redundant data acquisition and storage systems, and a variety of data sensors. Plans call for the solid-fuel rocket to zip upward from the desert floor and reach a speed of more than 4000 MPH in about 9 seconds. The suborbital vehicle will attain an altitude of 100 km or 62 statute miles--high enough to be considered 'space'--linger there for a couple of minutes then arc back to Earth some 26 miles down range. The whole thing will take somewhat less than a half-hour. If successful it would mark the first amateur rocket launch into space."
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Amateur Rocket to Carry Ham Radio Payload to Space More

Amateur Rocket to Carry Ham Radio Payload to Space

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  • Linger at 62 miles up where there nearly no air? More like falling to earth at over the speed of sound [wired.com]

    Simon

    • Re:Linger? (Score:4, Informative)

      by hopemafia ( 155867 ) on Wednesday May 12, 2004 @02:40PM (#9130941)
      Yes, linger. The vertical velocity of the rocket decreases to 0 at the top of its trajectory and then accelerates downward due to gravity, therefore the rocket will spend a longer time at the top than at any other point in its journey (besides the ground...). Thus linger is the appropriate term.

  • I suppose the X-prize is out the question (Score:3, Funny)

    by brejc8 ( 223089 ) * on Wednesday May 12, 2004 @02:23PM (#9130669) Homepage Journal
    Imagine the rocket needed to take these three guys [arrl.org] up there and back.

  • Webcast.. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by AllUsernamesAreGone ( 688381 ) on Wednesday May 12, 2004 @02:23PM (#9130675)
    I wonder if they'll do a webcast of the TV signal for those of us out of range/without HAM equipment.

  • Familiar Development Process (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 12, 2004 @02:23PM (#9130682)
    "Hey, it blew up!"
    "Guess we better build a bigger one."

    Sounds like management at my company...
    • I makes me think of Monty Python's "The Quest for the Holy Grail" where that nobleman with the singing son kept building castles in a swamp.

      They kept collapsing, so he kept building on the ruins of the previous ones until he succeeded. :)

      Then he wanted his son to marry the woman with huge......tracts of land.
    • Seriously though, how smart is it to A)make it bigger and hence different and B)put equipment on there that isn't needed to test it out.

      Would it not be smarter to stick with on rocket and test and refine it to get it to work a couple of times then spend the money for the fancy broadcasting equipment...

  • Airbags? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by purduephotog ( 218304 ) <`moc.tibroni' `ta' `hcsrih'> on Wednesday May 12, 2004 @02:24PM (#9130699) Homepage Journal
    Does that model rocket come with an airbag?

    Honestly this is rather interesting. I've heard about the problems of establishing a GPS lock after a 25G sustained force- and that it's near impossible. Pulling it off is quite a feat.

    I don't understand why they are returning to earth so soon, however- shouldn't a parachute (which arguably wouldn't provide much slowdown with ~1000 molecules/cm3) delay the reentry more than 1/2 hour? Unless they are expecting to lawn dart ;)

    Here's to their success

    • Re:Airbags? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by mikeee ( 137160 ) on Wednesday May 12, 2004 @02:28PM (#9130758)
      Probably no parachute is a ground safety issue; if they deploy one at that altitude, there's no telling where the thing might land.

    • Re:Airbags? (Score:5, Informative)

      by kbonin ( 58917 ) on Wednesday May 12, 2004 @02:32PM (#9130808)
      Recovery is a big problem for high power rocketry - how many hours downrange do you want to drive to get your rocket back?

      Normal approach is to eject a small drogue parachute near the apex of the flight, which is intended too let you lose lots of altitude without going to fast. It also keeps you from drifting too far from the launch site. Once you're close to the ground (via redundant altimeters) you eject the main chute to set it down 'relatively' gently.
      • My redundant chutes were always the 'catch it in the air' approach. It worked, for the most part, at least until my little sister tried once.

        She ran and when it looked like she was about to catch it... she balked.

        Big Bertha lawn darted 1 foot into the soft, Indiana soil. The engine mount now served as a nose cone.

        Oh well. Maybe 2nd chance will come out with something a bit smaller ;)

    • A Unique Recovery Plan (Score:5, Funny)

      by Eagle5596 ( 575899 ) <slashUser@5[ ].org ['596' in gap]> on Wednesday May 12, 2004 @02:50PM (#9131083)
      Actually the site says they intend for the recovery to be parachuteless, they decided to see what the effect of such a tall rocket would be if it impacted Lindon, Utah at several thousand miles per hour. Darl McBride will be waiting at the landing site with a target strapped to his forhead to aid in the experiment.
    • I fly at Blackrock all the time - you have miles of downrange in all directions - but it's more common to deplot a drogue at apogee and something bigger at a few 1000 ft
    • No parachute would survive reentry. You would need some sort of ablative coated surface to take the heat for any length of time, but then your shedding a plasma field that would block any earth-bound receiver from listening to the transmission. I've seen the video feeds off sounding rockets (Black Brant, etc). Once you start picking up the atmosphere, you only see 2-3 seconds of telemetry before loss-of-signal. So, let it burn.

  • One would think... (Score:3, Funny)

    by Power Everywhere ( 778645 ) on Wednesday May 12, 2004 @02:25PM (#9130705) Homepage
    ...that with all of the technology available nowadays we'd put something more advanced tham HAM radio into space. This is like using a submarine to deliver pizza.
    • There's something wrong with that? My sub made pretty good pizza.

      SSN679
      • There's something wrong with that? My sub made pretty good pizza.

        SSN679

        Unless I miss my guess, you are referring to the USS Silversides, named for the WWII SS236 submarine, launched June 1971, decommissioned and struck from the Navy list in July 1994.

        I didn't know those boats had a large enough kitchen to make a pizza. I suppose you could always pop it in the reactor for a quick warming! :-D

    • Ham radio is advanced. They're using Ham frequencies most likely because they can do so without requiring special liscensing from the FCC for the transponder channels. All they need is one person who is a liscensed Ham radio operator on the ground.

  • Xploration? (Score:3, Funny)

    by wtmcgee ( 113309 ) on Wednesday May 12, 2004 @02:25PM (#9130709) Homepage
    they just HAD to use that 'X', didn't they?
    • Maybe it's because CSET was already trademarked by IBM. (Though it's a different industry, so that may not actually matter.)

  • Significant (Score:5, Informative)

    by Tuna_Shooter ( 591794 ) on Wednesday May 12, 2004 @02:26PM (#9130715) Homepage Journal
    I think most people don't realize the this is the FIRST non- governmental private ametuer vehicle to reach space. That by itselt is a VERY important milestone. I wish them well. !!

  • Odd (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Pig Hogger ( 10379 ) <pig.hogger@gmail ... m minus caffeine> on Wednesday May 12, 2004 @02:26PM (#9130719) Journal
    It's amazing that the department of homeland insecurity would let ordinary people launch a homemade missile...

    • Ah, but what the public doesn't know is that the government is also testing the Star Wars Alpha Module on May 17th.

      Looks to me like the CSXT will earn the honors of having the first vessel destroyed in space combat.
    • apparently you have no idea how much paperwork they had to fill out and get approved before they were granted permission.

  • Wish them luck! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by BCW2 ( 168187 ) on Wednesday May 12, 2004 @02:26PM (#9130727) Journal
    I don't know if there is any real scientific value to this flight or not. But shooting a hobbists rocket into space is just cool. These folks are following in the footsteps of Goddard and the rest of the rocket pioneers. Not a bad path at all, they might even find something new. I hope they have fun, and everything works.
  • I just hope that the launch site will be really far away from any civilised area.

    If the rocket climb that high at the wrong angle, they will suffer a major blow if they blow up someone when the cargo touch down a lot farter than predicted.

  • Damn (Score:3, Funny)

    by Prince Vegeta SSJ4 ( 718736 ) on Wednesday May 12, 2004 @02:27PM (#9130736)
    I thought it said "Rocket to Carry Spam Radio [spamradio.com] into space"

    I thought were sure to create even extra terrestrial enemies if were gonna start spamming space for crisake

  • Okay, it's officially time... (Score:5, Informative)

    by Myself ( 57572 ) on Wednesday May 12, 2004 @02:27PM (#9130741) Journal
    ...to get my license ;)

    On that note, hams and electronics geeks in the midwest should note that it's time for Dayton Hamvention [hamvention.org] this weekend!

    Holy shit, this is cool even if it's very suborbital. I wonder how many years it'll be until the amsat launches are truly amateur-done :)

  • Bah, amateur space enthusiasts... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Black Parrot ( 19622 ) on Wednesday May 12, 2004 @02:28PM (#9130751)


    The amateur anti-missle defense club will try to shoot it down.

  • Sounds cool to me (Score:3, Informative)

    by bigredmed ( 699538 ) on Wednesday May 12, 2004 @02:29PM (#9130764)
    I realize that Ham radio seems passe' to the "basement full of Linux boxes" people, but its cool and this project, while rather unlikely to completely succeed would be cool to listen in on. For those of us who go outside, Ham is a great source of communication, as many people live where cell phone towers don't and many of the really cool places are not where cell phone towers are.

  • Why? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by slycer9 ( 264565 ) on Wednesday May 12, 2004 @02:29PM (#9130765) Journal
    Why is the /. crowd so anti-amateur radio?
    It's like, the original geekdom, and while a LOT of the geezers out there are boring as shit to talk to, there's a LOT of cool stuff going on.

    Tons of digital modes, (interfacing comps with radios), satellite coms, EME, meteor bounce.

    Really, it's just confusing to me that as a group, /. can still talk about how great pac-man was (with a straight face), and yet totally trash Amateur Radio.

    You want retro roots? THERE"S your roots.

    • Re:Why? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by dr_dank ( 472072 ) on Wednesday May 12, 2004 @02:49PM (#9131073) Homepage Journal
      Really, it's just confusing to me that as a group, /. can still talk about how great pac-man was (with a straight face), and yet totally trash Amateur Radio.

      I've had my license for ten years next month. I'm not on the air much anymore. Aside from emergency communications and such, the internet has ham radio beat hands down. Packet is STILL capped at 9600 bps as it was when I first got my ticket. Worldwide communications can take place easily over AIM, IRC and the like (no reliance on sunspots, can cuss and use encryption to your hearts content).

      I think there is a great educational value in ham radio, but the kids (who are the new blood to keep the hobby going forward) don't seem to be gravitating towards it in the face of such competition.

      Current hams, please feel free to correct me or debate the above.

      • Re:Why? (Score:2, Informative)

        by hypnagogue ( 700024 )
        Packet is STILL capped at 9600 bps
        That's why hams are inducting 802.11b/g into Part 97 with the aid of 2.4gHz amplifiers. Just make sure you have WEP disabled, and are on the right channels.

      • Re:Why? (Score:5, Informative)

        by Rorschach1 ( 174480 ) on Wednesday May 12, 2004 @03:27PM (#9131735) Homepage
        Capped at 9600 bps? Hardly. Check out BayCom's USB modem [baycom.org] - it does 78.6 kbps standard, 300 kbps max.

        Plus, you can run 802.11b/g with MUCH greater power and range than unlicensed users, provided you stay within the limits of Part 97 operation.

        Yeah, ragchewing is pretty lame when you've got the Internet. Never did much for me in the first place. My primary interest is in AVL, telemetry, and weather applications. The 'net doesn't do you much good when you haven't even got cell phone coverage.

      • Re:Why? (Score:3, Insightful)

        by sipy ( 602638 )
        Your point appears to me to be that Ham Radio is no longer relevant. et tu, Brute? (You're a ham.) =)

        You just cited emergency communications, and said "aside from [that]". But "that" is one of the original justifications the government gave for creating the amateur radio system in the first place - to provide a mechanism for communications in times of disaster/crisis/where public safety is in jeapordy. This service to the public is still absolutely relevant.

        Just ask the victims of the Oklahoma City bom
      • is a license actually needed anymore?

        i was under the impression that talking on these frequencies without your callsign was just asking for trouble.

        however, i notice that many people use HAM without licenses without any problems at all. just take a look at all the hangglider and paraglider folks.
      • I dunno, I think that what you cited, educational value, is the PRINCIPAL reason why we should try to get more people involved in HAM radio. I'm in the engineering program at UBC (Vancouver, Canada) and belong to the UBC Amateur Radio Society [ams.ubc.ca] (they're gonna kill me for linking that :-). I always find that the guys there are pursuing interesting projects, that I get a great opportunity to learn useful stuff outside the classroom in a fun and practically applicable setting, and that the whole community is ful

  • Only 100km? Whew... Well my $1000 is safe. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Baldrson ( 78598 ) on Wednesday May 12, 2004 @02:31PM (#9130784) Homepage Journal
    For a moment there I was concerned I'd have to fork over $1000 for The Bowery Award For Amateur Rocketry [geocities.com] but that's for 200km and this is only 100km. It is, however, not too hard to get from 100km to to 200km given the lack of air resistance at that altitude.

    PS: That award offer will have been outstanding for a decade come a year from this coming fall.

    PPS: Does anyone know why the CATS prize had (and Ansari X-Prize has) time limits?

  • You are just pissed... (Score:3, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 12, 2004 @02:32PM (#9130811)
    that someone nerdier than you is doing this.

    My Dad is an Extra licensed Ham, and there ain't no bigger nerd in the world than a Ham.

  • Caution Rant mode is on! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by KD7JZ ( 161218 ) on Wednesday May 12, 2004 @02:38PM (#9130912)
    What a bunch of damn whiners. These are folks that are basically doing the Slashdot thing (learning, exploring, trying). Yes it amateur radio, but it is telemetry data and full motion color video. Hurray for them trying!

  • Next step: amateur Sputnik! (Score:4, Interesting)

    by b1t r0t ( 216468 ) on Wednesday May 12, 2004 @02:51PM (#9131113)
    Russia launched the first satellite in October 1957. The 50th anniversary is less than 3 1/2 years away.

    It would be great if someone could get an amateur rocket to put a satellite into orbit in October 2007 to celebrate the anniversary. At this rate, it might even be possible.

    • Re:Next step: amateur Sputnik! (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Not even close yet. The R-7 rocket that launched Sputnik weight 280 tons and was 28m long.
      • Of course, the CSS Hunley was turned by a hand cranked screw and took 9 men in a 35 foot submarine to sink a wooden warship. A commited hobbiest could probably build a ship with the same capability with a crew of 1, an electric motor, and clock it in at 8 or 10 feet.

        That being said, I doubt that if we re-launched sputnik today it would require the same size rocket. Engine efficiencies have increased by several orders of magnitude.
        • Actually, engine efficiencies have barely changed since the 60s. If it required hundreds of tons of rocket to get a satellite of size X into orbit then, it requires hundreds (possibly fewer hundreds, but not even one order of magnitude less) of tons of rocket to get a satellite of size X into orbit today.
      • Sputnik the satellite also weighed 183 pounds. I think with modern technology we could reduce the payload weight a tad. A little less payload, a lot less rocket.
    • That's a bit like saying "I just learned how to ride my bike to the Bonnevile salt flats. Next step: break the sound barrier!"

      What they are doing is reaching 100km with zero velocity. What an orbital flight requires is 7km/s velocity. In fact, to sustain an orbit also requires several times that altitude to eliminate atmospheric drag.

      Having said that, I am not a rocket scientist, so I could be wrong.

  • My first thought upon reading the title. (Score:3, Funny)

    by 955301 ( 209856 ) on Wednesday May 12, 2004 @03:06PM (#9131365) Journal
    Now there is a guy who's fed up with being a HAM radio operator.

  • Cheaper, but still fun (Score:4, Informative)

    by Rorschach1 ( 174480 ) on Wednesday May 12, 2004 @03:33PM (#9131814) Homepage
    Rockets are great, but for getting to the 'edge of space' and staying there for longer periods, balloons are a lot easier and cheaper, though they can still be pretty challenging.

    Check out Edge of Space Sciences [eoss.org] and Arizona Near Space Research [ansr.org] for some good examples.

    Balloons are a great opportunity to experience the engineering challenges of launching, tracking, and communicating with a payload under harsh conditions without the risk of things blowing up.

    I haven't built my own yet, but telemetry encoders [n1vg.net] (site down at the moment, freaking DSL) I've designed have flown on a couple of flights, and I've got a K-size cylinder of helium in the garage begging to be put to use, so it's probably only a matter of time.

  • Jim Henson clearly owns the IP to space pork, I'm sure his estate's attorneys will be contacting these Ham Rocketeers soon

  • About the launch site... (Score:5, Informative)

    by ikluft ( 1284 ) <ik-slash@NoSPaM.thunder.sbay.org> on Wednesday May 12, 2004 @04:11PM (#9132354) Homepage
    I talked with some of CSXT's [civilianspace.com] Avionics Team about what would happen when this went up on Slashdot. And here it is. We figured it's inevitable that some people will try to show up even though it's short notice and a really inhospitable location.

    Bear in mind that the launch site is far away from populated areas on purpose. Over there in the deep desert, that presents a survival issue for anyone who comes unprepared. There is no city infrastructure that most people are used to - it's a wilderness. If you wander off and get lost and stuck, you may survive for days but not be discovered for weeks. That's why you should take this seriously.

    Cell phones do not work out there. It's well over an hour's drive from the nearest cell site. Amateur Radio and satellite phones are the only reliable communications out there. If you don't have those, don't wander away from the paved roads and the launch site.

    So if I haven't scared you away yet, here's some info that hopefully will help you survive out there. Remember that in the desert, bring your own drinking water - and lots of it. I have a web page about the Black Rock Desert [kluft.com]. I have a page with a minimal camping checklist [kluft.com]. Even if you're planning to stay in a motel, bring enough camping gear to survive overnight and wait for a rescue if you get stuck. (Overnight temperatures are usually in the 20's and 30's this time of year.) But don't go wandering off where no one knows to look for you. And lastly, see our page about "How to avoid needing a rescue at Black Rock" [stratofox.org], which we wrote after participating in many rescues of stranded people out there.

    I'm going to be out there with the Stratofox Aerospace Tracking & Recovery Team [stratofox.org]. We consider it an enormous privilege that CSXT has invited us to assist at their launch.

  • homer's waiting on the ISS (Score:3, Funny)

    by Transcendent ( 204992 ) on Wednesday May 12, 2004 @08:51PM (#9135052)
    "Mmmm.... hhaammm..."
  • It's just a little airborn, it's still good! It's still good! It's gone Homer.

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