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Science

A Completely Separate Ecosystem on Earth 323

Suman writes "A lake hidden beneath 19 meters of ice and gravel has been found near the bottom of the world that might contain an ecosystem completely separate from our own. In a modern version of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's classic book Lost World, NASA funded scientists are now plotting a mission to drill down into the lake and remove a sample of water from the lake for analysis. Lake Vida, buried under Antarctic ice for over 2,500 years, is liquid only because of a high salt content that results from salt being expelled from water above as it turns to ice. Previously, scientists drilled to within a few meters of the lake and indeed found frozen microbes. Their existence bolsters speculation that similar microorganisms could be found in frozen brine beneath the surface of Mars. If living organisms are found in Lake Vida, they may give an indication that life might even still exist under similar frozen ice-sheets, such as under the larger Lake Vostok, parts of Mars, and even moons of Jupiter such as Europa. Pictured above, a robot meteorological station continues to monitor surface conditions over the ice-sealed lake." We've mentioned this lake before.
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A Completely Separate Ecosystem on Earth

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  • by soapbox ( 695743 ) * on Sunday April 04, 2004 @01:32PM (#8762191) Homepage
    As with so many rare finds, the real question is How to not contaminate or destroy what we've found [spacedaily.com], while still getting access to the knowledge we want.

    On the other hand, there is this article, about the Rio Tinto in Spain [earthsky.com], which supports life despite a pH of around 2. It might not be totally separate or isolated, but that's a pretty alien environment. (another similar story, including a brief discussion of astrobiology, is here [chronicle.com].

    • This is also one of the reasons why we're so edgy about sending probes to Io, we don't want to let our life destroy theirs without even knowing it.
      • by heptapod ( 243146 ) <heptapod@gmail.com> on Sunday April 04, 2004 @01:47PM (#8762264) Journal
        Io?
        It's highly unlikely that there's any life on Io [ucar.edu]. It appears to be too extreme for extremophiles [astrobiology.com]. Perhaps you are thinking of Europa [msoe.edu]. Europa [spaceref.com]'s the icy moon. Io [solarviews.com]'s the volcanic one covered in sulfur.
      • by schnarff ( 557058 ) <alex&schnarff,com> on Sunday April 04, 2004 @03:02PM (#8762695) Homepage Journal
        Honestly, what are the chances that an Earth microbe could survive on Io or Europa (see respondent to this post), especially in the face of competition from a native microbe that was well-adapted to the surroundings? Any microorganisms that we'd accidentally be bringing along are not extremophiles, but garden variety human-digestive-tract stuff and the like, which would die pretty quickly when exposed to the extremes of temperature, radiation, and/or chemical concentrations on either of those worlds.

        Don't get me wrong, we should certainly be taking preventative measures to ensure that we don't contaminate other worlds...but I don't think it should be something that paralyzes us and stops good science from being done. The chance of actual contamination occuring is just too low to spend too much energy worrying.
        • by KDan ( 90353 ) on Sunday April 04, 2004 @03:12PM (#8762768) Homepage
          To paraphrase something heard in a crummy movie (Jurassic Park in this case), the fascinating thing about life is that it just adapts!...

          Sure, it's unlikely that our garden variety bacteria would survive on Europa, but then, how likely is it that life would arise on its own? If you believe in the latter you have to allow the former, which is a lot more likely, statistically...

          Daniel
          • by Doomdark ( 136619 ) on Sunday April 04, 2004 @10:22PM (#8765391) Homepage Journal
            Sure, it's unlikely that our garden variety bacteria would survive on Europa, but then, how likely is it that life would arise on its own? If you believe in the latter you have to allow the former, which is a lot more likely, statistically...

            No, it is not. Not that you or I can provide much in way of statistics to speak of, but consider the fact that "our" microbies would have only one chance to get enough of them to mutate, to survive, and failing that. They're dead, until next spaceship comes, if ever. On the other hand, getting native ones to develop can happen at any single point over millions of years, under potentiallty varying circumstances.

            Chances of either happening are probably miniscule, but one is a continuing process, and the other discrete tiny one-time chances. I'd put my money on life evolving spontaneously, over someone bringing in specialized life-forms ill-suited for new environment any day.

        • by Jesus 2.0 ( 701858 ) on Sunday April 04, 2004 @05:48PM (#8763751)
          Honestly, what are the chances that an Earth microbe could survive on Io or Europa (see respondent to this post), especially in the face of competition from a native microbe that was well-adapted to the surroundings?

          I understand your point, but frankly, the same question could have been asked in the seventeenth century about bringing rats, cats and pigs to Madagascar. How could they possibly compete with the native and well-adapted dodo?

          And that's just an example, of course. There are many such examples, not just that one, of native species being decimated by introduced species.

          The problem is that the dodo, for example, was well-adapted in a locally maximal sense, not in a maximal sense. Rats are better adapted for Madagascar than dodos were; they were just never given a chance there until the 1600s.
        • Any microorganisms that we'd accidentally be bringing along are not extremophiles, but garden variety human-digestive-tract stuff and the like, which would die pretty quickly when exposed to the extremes of temperature, radiation, and/or chemical concentrations on either of those worlds.

          You have heard of spores, haven't you? The garden variety stuff would be the easiest to get rid of, but the unusual stuff would still hang around. Take any random sample of atmospheric air, filter it, expose the filter t

        • Asteroid collisions and solar wind have been splattering bits of our planet and atmosphere all over the system on a regular basis for billions of years. Bits of other planets rain down on us all the time, in the form of meteor fragments. It is well-established that both living bacteria and spores survive could easily survive such interplanetary trips. If there is life on Mars, Io, Europa or wherever, you can be sure its all the from the same source, and cross-contamination would be a regular occurrence.
      • by Hao Wu ( 652581 ) on Sunday April 04, 2004 @04:07PM (#8763132) Homepage
        This is also one of the reasons why we're so edgy about sending probes to Io, we don't want to let our life destroy theirs without even knowing it.

        We? Speak for yourself!

        Any "contamination" from such a probe will have to compete with native microbes in Io's natural environment. Most likely, it will be quickly overrun and out-competed for nutrients. If it DOES contaminate and take hold of the planet, then it was meant to be; it probably would have heppened by now from meteor impacts. Earth itself has been contaminated with martian rocks. I don't hear you environmentalist wackos complaining about that.

        • by Namarrgon ( 105036 ) on Sunday April 04, 2004 @08:25PM (#8764737) Homepage
          Earth itself has been contaminated with martian rocks.

          I, for one, welcome our new petrified microbe overlords... yep, they're a serious threat all right.

          it probably would have heppened by now from meteor impacts.

          Giant meteorites burning through our atmosphere & hitting the ground with such force that it blasts rocks containing live bacteria at escape velocity out past Mars & the asteroids, narrowly avoiding Jupiter's gravity well & gently touching down in a hospitable place on Io - and you call that probable? Like it happens on a daily basis.

          If it DOES contaminate and take hold of the planet, then it was meant to be

          What are you, some sort of predestinationist? It's OK to hang about in SARS clinics or have unprotected sex with AIDS sufferers, and if we get infected, well, "it was meant to be"?

          From where I'm sitting, such an event would be our choice, the humans planning the mission, since we could by a simple choice not allow it the chance of happening.

          Environmentalist wacko complaints aside, try to see it from a simple science viewpoint at least. Any life on Io (or Europa or underground lakes etc) can be viewed as a (very rare) experiment, with the potential to learn a lot about how life develops, and if we introduce external influences we run a real risk of contaminating the results.

          That alone is enough reason to take every precaution.

    • by kfg ( 145172 ) on Sunday April 04, 2004 @02:27PM (#8762492)
      This lake is not so rare as the story might suggest. There are now more than 70 such Antarctic lakes known, Lake Vostok being the largest of them by a good margin.

      This lake is rare in the sense of largish perfect diamond, and thus notable, but it is not rare in the sense of unique, and thus truly breaking news.

      The contamination of any of these lakes could amount to something of a scientific tragedy, as each may have unique enviromental qualities, but on the other hand, if we restrict our early experiments to the smaller and less significant lakes, if we make a mistake or two learning our way about the process major tragedy might be avoided.

      And we're likely to make a mistake or two despite our best efforts. We only learn by making these mistakes. It's called "trial and error," not "trial and continued success."

      See the early Bill Cosby routine entitled, "Oops."

      So the real scientific import of Vista and her sisters is that we can explore them before we tackle Vostok, and ultimately Io. If we accidentally contaminate Vida it's a possible tragedy. If we contaminate Io it's an unmitigated disaster.

      KFG
      • P.S. (Score:3, Interesting)

        by kfg ( 145172 )
        The story also hints at a bit of "survivalist" lore that no longer appears to be common knowledge even among sailors venturing into subarctic climes, and lives have actually been lost because of this lack of knowledge.

        The ocean, in human terms, is in many ways a desert , despite representing an immense quantity of water, because it is salt.

        "Water, water everywhere, nor any drop to drink."

        Salt water turns fresh when frozen.

        If you have a means to freeze salt water, like, oh, say, the air temperature ( sal
    • It's completely natural. We are after all the top predator. There is a very long list of other species which were not up to scratch and which human beings have made extinct. I wouldn't worry too much about some microbes.

    • Another fairly major issue which everyone thus far seems to have missed is that a lake this far beneath ice will have a tremendous amount of pressure upon it. Upon breaching the ice near the lake, there is a significant risk of rapid depressurisation, in which gases dissolved in the water (possibly caused by biological processes) would rapidly come out of solution, much akin to opening a shaken bottle of soda.
    • Contaminate the water? I'm surprised it hasn't been bottled by now.
  • Woops. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by dolo666 ( 195584 ) on Sunday April 04, 2004 @01:32PM (#8762192) Journal
    As soon as NASA drills down, this lake will become a part of our ecosystem, and subject to our deficits and benefits; the only thing keeping it separated is about to be breached, which in the interest of science is very interesting, yet still impossible to prevent. Like Mars, we are going to leave trace elements of our world behind, in an effort to understand this system. I'm not suggesting any immediate contamination, but slight contamination is going to happen no matter how NASA proceeds.

    As for the Mars theory of life existing in frozen climates, the funny thing is when the fiery residents of the Sun, laugh and realize we puny humans can exist on the frozen climate of Earth! Their probes will be made of molton sunspots that will sadly destroy much of our ecosystem in efforts to understand it, or at least that is the premise of a sci-fi book I may write in the near future. My point is that life is all a matter of perspective, not that I truly believe there is life on the Sun (although there must be).
    • Re:Woops. (Score:3, Insightful)

      by JaxWeb ( 715417 )
      It always scares me when Scientists want to do this sort of thing. Not because they are particular destructive people, but we all make mistakes, and we don't want this ruined.

      At least, this time, we're going to drill in a fragile area in this name of Science, not Capitalism (As in for oil)
      • Re:Woops. (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Jim Starx ( 752545 ) <{JStarx} {at} {gmail.com}> on Sunday April 04, 2004 @01:47PM (#8762265)
        What alternative do you propose?? That we never try?
      • Thanks for a wonderful demonstration of Sophistry.

        Them commies don't drill for oil, they respect the environment!

        It always scares me when Reactionaries try to do this sort of thing. Not because they are particularly destructive people, but we all make mistakes, and we don't want this ruined.

        ;)
        • Re:Woopsistry (Score:3, Insightful)

          by tverbeek ( 457094 )
          Thanks for a wonderful demonstration of Sophistry.
          Them commies don't drill for oil, they respect the environment!

          Quite a sophist-icated argument you've got yourself, there. He wasn't contrasting Capitalism with Commununism, but with Science (i.e. the motivation to own with the motivation to know). You're knocking down a straw man.

          :P

    • Re:Woops. (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Jim Starx ( 752545 ) <{JStarx} {at} {gmail.com}> on Sunday April 04, 2004 @01:43PM (#8762242)
      that I truly believe there is life on the Sun (although there must be) (emphasis mine)

      Please explain that?

      Contamination is bound to happen. How far in the future is a matter of question, but if humans continue to invent and expand as we have allways done then inevitably we will settle other planets or the moon maybe even other galaxies. Are you arguing that the lake should be left as it is never to be touched? I think it's inevitable that exploring the scientific finds will contaminate the lake but I also think that nasa can figure out ways to reduce that contamination maybe even to the point of irrelevance.

      Also... if a "sun scientist" were smart enough to build a probe an launch it out of the suns gravity to the earth (keep in mind that that is exponentially harder then us sending probes to mars as they don't have orbital dynamics working in their favor), don't you think they would also be smart enough to build said probe out of something solid and non-molten, as to not destroy the planet they intend to explore?

      • Re:Woops. (Score:4, Funny)

        by oconnorcjo ( 242077 ) on Sunday April 04, 2004 @02:52PM (#8762650) Journal
        Also... if a "sun scientist" were smart enough to build a probe an launch it out of the suns gravity to the earth (keep in mind that that is exponentially harder then us sending probes to mars as they don't have orbital dynamics working in their favor), don't you think they would also be smart enough to build said probe out of something solid and non-molten, as to not destroy the planet they intend to explore?

        Actually the "Sun Scientists" have been transmitting large dosages of radiation into space to find life in the universe and were quickly surprised to find life on the third moon from the sun. Some scientist in the community ponder weather the life existed before the experiment started and wonder whether the search for life alters the data findings. This controversial project to find life in the universe may be coming to an end due to pressures from galaxy enviromentalists and budget cuts on the project.

  • by DarthWiggle ( 537589 ) <sckiwi AT gmail DOT com> on Sunday April 04, 2004 @01:38PM (#8762212) Journal
    Sounds like my roommate's bathroom. *shudder*
    • by DarthWiggle ( 537589 ) <sckiwi AT gmail DOT com> on Sunday April 04, 2004 @01:53PM (#8762318) Journal
      Holy crap you mods are fast.

      Anyway, for a more serious response, is it really a completely separate ecosystem? I mean, a) it's only 2,500 years, and b) it still evolved (see (a)) from the same stuff we're all made of. Or maybe I'm being insufficiently semantic... There's a difference between a completely separate ecosystem and a completely independent one.

      Mars. Europa. Eroticon Six. Those would be completely independent. Which then leads to another question: if all you're studying is /isolated/ populations which evolve from a genetic line which originated in more favorable conditions, does that really have anything to do with the possibility of life originating on other planets? I mean, yes, life may be able to thrive in unfavorable environments, but does that mean it would naturally start there?

      Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. Shouldn't we be discussing Daylight Savings Time or something? (Aside: Don't news websites and such generally post helpful little icons that tell you when the time change is coming? Or did my ad blocking in Firefox work too well this time?)
      • by n3k5 ( 606163 ) on Sunday April 04, 2004 @02:17PM (#8762448) Journal
        Mars. Europa. Eroticon Six. Those would be completely independent.
        We can't actually know that. Perhaps the very same entities from the furure who came back in time to Eroticon Six in order to mine the excess heat energy generated by the tourists coming to see the Triple Breasted Whore also wioll haven retro-be mining Mars to get ... err, on-forewhen pregetting ice-cubes for their gargle blasters.
      • by llywrch ( 9023 ) on Sunday April 04, 2004 @02:25PM (#8762482) Homepage Journal
        > Anyway, for a more serious response, is it really a completely separate ecosystem?

        It's arguable. No organic material has entered or left this underground resevoir apparently for 2500 years, so if any organisms are living in it, these organisms had to support each other in a stable relationship -- or they'd have all died by now.

        This is like one of those terrariums described in my old high school biology textbook: put a snail & a plant into a glass container, seal the container, & see how long this ecosystem survives. The plant will provide oxygen for the snail, the snail CO2 for the plant -- at least until the snail eats the entire plant.

        This experiment, of course, will come to an end much faster if the sealed environment isn't kept in light: energy must enter any ecosystem from somewhere, & in the case of Lake Vida I wonder if geothermal energy would enter this environment -- in the Martian equivalents -- in sufficient amounts to make it viable for life.

        Geoff
      • Good questions:

        (1) Is it really a completely separate ecosystem?
        (2) Does that really have anything to do with the possibility of life originating on other planets?

        It's certainly not separate in the sense that it would provide any kind of interesting model for what we might find on other planets. 2,500 years is an instant in evolutionary time and the existence a group of organisms that are just recently isolated is quite a different matter from life that evolved totally independently. Id does indicate

  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 04, 2004 @01:38PM (#8762216)
    They've found the lost city of Atlantis! Those wacky Ancients.
  • Human destruction (Score:2, Insightful)

    by chachob ( 746500 )
    Is there any place on earth that will remain pure and not affected by human destruction through its greed for knowledge? I don't think so. Especially since this issue doesn't seem to have even been debated or had the consequences considered. I understand the other side of this debate, that it is a "never-ending quest for knowledge," but there must be a way to gain knowledge without harvesting it from the earth without considering the consequences.
    • Not if there's a chance we'll find oil, or if technologies necessary to carry out these experiments could be adapted for that purpose.
    • What a defeatist outlook on things. "Pure" is an entirely human concept anyways, I dont think the microbes will give a damn.
    • by Boglin ( 517490 ) on Sunday April 04, 2004 @02:43PM (#8762593) Journal
      Who said we aren't considering the consequences? The guys working on this project are probably driving themselves half insane about trying to ensure that there will be as little contamination as possible. They didn't just say "Boys, there's an ecosystem down there. The fastest shovel gets a free beer!" Just because you weren't in the room when they considered the consequences doesn't mean it didn't happen.

      Also, you said that there had to be a way to gain the knowledge without harvesting it from the earth. Well, I hate to be rude, but there isn't. In order to learn about what is going on in there, SOMETHING has to go in and come back out, be it a probe, a sound wave, or a photon. What if the creatures in there a sensitive to the vibrations in sonar? What if our radar measurements just so happen to be at the exact resonance frequency of some molecule in their basic structure? Ultimately, any method we use to study the area has a chance of killing off the whole lake. However, the odds or any of these happening is slim. Furthermore, the data we would get from this probe would let us KNOW which measurement option are safe.

      Finally, I suspect that someone is going to attack with the claim that, since ANY observation could result in destruction (regardless of how small those odds might be), we should simply not study it at all. Well, there's a couple of problems there. First, what do we do when some natural disaster threatens this ecosystem (ie earthquake). Without this research would wouldn't have knowledge on how to help restore the balance. All we could do is just sit back and watch them die. Also, just as there is a small but non-zero chance that any observation will destroy the system, there is also a small, but non-zero chance, that there will be startling new discoveries in there. I'm not saying it's going to cure cancer, but the knowledge of the balances of that ecosystem might help us in trying to find balance in other ecosystems that have been damaged. You say that it is our greed for knowledge that is destroying the earth, but do you honestly think the earth can be restored without knowledge?

    • Is there any place on earth that will remain pure and not affected by human destruction through its greed for knowledge?

      Wait a minute. Pure? As is what sense? Pure is a thoroughly human contrivance. Humans are part of the Earth's ecosystem; we evolved here. Therefore, in order for the Earth's ecosystem to be "impurified" it would have to be contaminated by something outside the ecosystem. That's not us, nor is it anything we could possibly do. Do we shame a dog for crapping on the grass? After all, it's
  • Woah (Score:5, Funny)

    by rudib ( 300816 ) on Sunday April 04, 2004 @01:40PM (#8762226) Homepage
    Slashdot's "summary": "Pictured above, a robot meteorological station continues to monitor surface conditions over the ice-sealed lake."

    So Einstein's head was/is a metereological station? Dind't know that... :)
    • Re:Woah (Score:5, Insightful)

      by dr bacardi ( 48590 ) on Sunday April 04, 2004 @01:50PM (#8762294) Homepage
      Ya know, thats funny and all, but it's pretty annoying to actually RTFA, paraphrase it, only to have it rejected, when a simple copy/paste gets accepted.
      Yeah, yeah, I know, don't bitch about how stories are accepted, but having something that says "Pictured above" in a /. headline is just broken.
  • Scientists discover an unknown colony of Cowboy Neals buried deep within the Earth's crust!
  • by jd ( 1658 ) <imipak@ y a hoo.com> on Sunday April 04, 2004 @01:45PM (#8762250) Homepage Journal
    For a start, we can test the current tectonic plate models. We know how fast DNA diverges, so if we examine the DNA from these microbes, we should be able to tell when the lake was sealed up by ice.


    Further, because of the extreme demands of the salt solution, the microbes will necessarily be adapted to such conditions. Since we know the timescale (see paragraph 1), we can trace through junk DNA and older DNA fragments how the evolution occured. (Microbes are simple enough that detailed analysis of the gene sequences is well within reach.)

    • by n3k5 ( 606163 ) on Sunday April 04, 2004 @01:50PM (#8762295) Journal
      [...]
      We know how fast DNA diverges [...]
      As far as I know, we don't. Evolution happens in leaps rather than continuously; isn't DNA supposed to be subject to larger, sudden changes as well? And how should we know much about evolution in a completely separate ecosystem?
      • by WolfWithoutAClause ( 162946 ) on Sunday April 04, 2004 @02:18PM (#8762451) Homepage
        Evolution happens in leaps rather than continuously; isn't DNA supposed to be subject to larger, sudden changes as well?

        Yes, and no.

        Evolution is a combination of mutation and selection.

        Mutation happens all the time, and is usually negative or irrelevant (most often irrelevant). It happens at a somewhat fixed rate. If negative, the mutation will not survive; irrelevant changes will often persist.

        Just occasionally the mutation is wildly successful, and in that case can be wildly successful and will often spread through the population- so the change will often appear in a populaton suddenly (and of course there is an associated genetic change with this.)

        • Irelevant changes can also sometimes become wildly successfull after a while...
          Take a small irrelevant mutation that later proved to give people the ability to survive the black plague.
          People had been walking around with this gene for ages without needing it until the dissease came.

          Jeroen
      • Mutation isn't synonymous with evolution. Random DNA mutations happen at different rates in different species. AFAIK they happen at a roughly constant rate within species - but this rate may change if the species' DNA repair mechanisms evolve, or if it moves to a new environment that is higher in free-radicals or any of a number of scenarios.

        I would imagine that DNA mutations would happen at very slow rates in bacteria living in such cold conditions - but the species that were able to colonise such an env

      • As far as I know, we don't. Evolution happens in leaps rather than continuously; isn't DNA supposed to be subject to larger, sudden changes as well? And how should we know much about evolution in a completely separate ecosystem?

        Changes in genes that code for important proteins are definitely relatively rare. Usually such mutations are fatal, and get eliminated.

        Changes to noncoding DNA are quite a bit more common. Most species have quite a bit of this stuff, and usually (but not always) mutations that

    • by StupendousMan ( 69768 ) on Sunday April 04, 2004 @02:02PM (#8762370) Homepage

      We can test the current tectonic plate models. How? The plates move on timescales of tens of millions of years. This lake is 2500 years old.

      We know how fast DNA diverges, No, we don't. Not over periods as short as 2500 years. And not very well at all over longer periods, either.

      This isn't "Insightful". It's nonsense.

      • "We can test the current tectonic plate models." How? The plates move on timescales of tens of millions of years. This lake is 2500 years old.

        But just think of how vast the evolutionary changes of the past 2500 years have been! Compare modern homo sapiens (linguistic centers evolved enough to handle written language, hands prehensile enough to create subtle works of art, brains capable of abstract philosophy and mathematics, sophisticated democratic social systems, etc.) with our primitive hominid ancest

    • As its only 2500 years this thing has been sealed up, I'd guess they are doing something a tad more obvious like looking at isotope levels in trapped air bubbles to determine the age of the ice cores they've extracted.

      Tectonic plate movement seems to be unconnected to the rest of what you're talking about, but it seems irrelevant anyway, as the lake looks to be well inside the antarctic plate [usgs.gov] which would have moved only couple of miles in that timeframe (I would have thought the fact that there has been so
    • by lucare ( 199534 ) on Sunday April 04, 2004 @02:30PM (#8762504)
      If you are tired of getting your information distilled for you by the news media and want more information ... take a look at a scientific paper on Lake Vida at The Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS) ...

      http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/100/1/26#B8 [pnas.org]

      -Bill
  • by Thunderstruck ( 210399 ) on Sunday April 04, 2004 @01:46PM (#8762260)
    2,500 years of life in isolation is neat. We have a new little Australia to play with. Unfortunately a lake that is a couple of thousand years old really can't tell us whether life MIGHT exist on mars, only that it is capable... and given the multitude of environments where we find life here at home, I doubt many folks question the possibility of life being able to survive once it got to Mars.

    Such a lake sadly tells us little about the real question, from where does life originate in the first place?

    As for environmental concnerns, there are those who suggest that if Man is as much a natural organism as any other living thing and no more, then ALL of his actions must be natural, including the contamination of a 2,500 year old lake.
    • 2500 years of life in isolation is not that neat, but with luck, they'll provide us with some good meat. Yum...
    • As for environmental concnerns, there are those who suggest that if Man is as much a natural organism as any other living thing and no more, then ALL of his actions must be natural, including the contamination of a 2,500 year old lake.

      Huh? I think that is pretty extreme because that could effectively be a blanket ideology that allows mankind to do whatever they want, including what would be an eventual self-destruction and the destruction of others.

      I can see the point, but given that man is sentient and
      • Ahhh yeah.... We can do whatever we want and it is "natural" just like a pack of wolves can gorge themselves on all their wolf food and wipe out whatever they're eating and then die because they're out of food. It was natural but not too bright on their part. Same thing applies to us.
    • Uh, people! Has Slashdot gone all creationist or something? Or are we seeing another example of the American failure to appreciate timescales longer than the age of the US ;-)

      This lake is *only* 2500 years old. On geological and evolutionary timescales that is but a blink. Australia was settled by humans maybe 60,000 years ago (20x older than the lake) and the continent separated from the rest of asia and polynesia tens of millions of years ago (at least 1000x older than the lake). And just to put that ti

  • Bad idea! (Score:5, Funny)

    by Gorath99 ( 746654 ) on Sunday April 04, 2004 @01:47PM (#8762266)
    Do we really need to set the Shoggoths loose?
  • by nappingcracker ( 700750 ) on Sunday April 04, 2004 @01:48PM (#8762274)
    pshaw!
    america has been a separate ecosystem for years!
  • La Vida Virgen (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Doc Ruby ( 173196 ) on Sunday April 04, 2004 @01:50PM (#8762291) Homepage Journal
    We've already (re?) connected Lake Vida's ecosystem to our own. Those probes within a few meters have tainted the lake's envelope. Ice flows: glaciers are rivers of ice, scraping their riverbeds into terminal moraines like Long Island, once the outskirts of Toronto. Drilling those probes brought heat energy from the surface, now conducting along the drillholes, into an energy exchange between Lake Vida and the Arctic environment unknown for tens, hundreds of thousands of years. And the material from the drills themselves, including bore lubricants, are now flowing slowly, chaotically into the mix of virgin Lake Vida.
    • Re:La Vida Virgen (Score:3, Insightful)

      by drinkypoo ( 153816 )
      By that definition it was never disconnected. The whole earth feels the effects of solar and even stellar radiation from crust to core. (discounting the atmosphere which is clearly part of the system as well.)
  • by loggia ( 309962 ) on Sunday April 04, 2004 @01:51PM (#8762297)
    I saw this movie before. There will be about nine scientists at the drilling site. One will warn everyone "you don't know what you're dealing with!"

  • Thousands of brand new undocumented micro-organisms!

    I'll fill you in on it later... I'm feeling a little under the weather!
  • by LooseChanj ( 17865 ) on Sunday April 04, 2004 @01:54PM (#8762329) Homepage
    We've found rocks from Mars on this planet, so I dispute the "Completely" part of this. This frozen lake is bound to have interacted with something on this planet.
    • IWe've found rocks from Mars on this planet, so I dispute the "Completely" part of this.

      I wonder how long it will be, before we find that rocks/grit from Earth have landed on Mars. This could happen from asteroid collisions or maybe from volcanic eruptions?
  • by Eevee ( 535658 ) on Sunday April 04, 2004 @01:56PM (#8762334)

    But why is the Astronomy Picture of the Day site posting a photo of a weather station? We're not talking about a photo of Europa. Nor a picture of a probe to Europa. We're not talking even talking about a picture dealing with a test project to help plan for a probe. It's a weather station sitting at the site while they plan what to do next.

    Just because NASA is paying for it doesn't mean it's got jack to do with astronomy. It's almost as if they've hired the slashdot editor crew. The next thing you know, they'll start having duplicate pictures posted all through the archive.

  • by baywulf ( 214371 ) on Sunday April 04, 2004 @02:02PM (#8762369)
    It is a burried spaceship where they froze Sculley.
  • by crem_d_genes ( 726860 ) on Sunday April 04, 2004 @02:18PM (#8762452)
    Whatever things may live there once derived from an ecosystem that was connected to the rest of the Earth.
    While it sounds more inaccessible to today's technology, only a few years ago many rain forests were similarly distinct. Some species of insects and birds have ranges of a single tree or a few hectares.
    The same goes with inaccessibility in terms of the depths of the oceans.
    The collection of ecosystems, biomes, niches - whatever level it is broken down to - gives barely a hint of the diversity of speciation.
    The Prime Directive should be foremost in minds of all. It was agreed that Antarctica would not be a place for economic development; that has been the usual reason the protocols that would degrade an ecosystem have been lowered historically.
  • Next time... (Score:4, Informative)

    by Zzz ( 90782 ) on Sunday April 04, 2004 @02:34PM (#8762526)
    ... you copy a text verbatim from another site [gsfc.nasa.gov], you may want to mention that? It's not that difficult:" Credit & Copyright: Thomas Nylen & Andrew Fountain (PSU), NASA, NSF Russell Croman". There.
  • Yippy (Score:3, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 04, 2004 @02:35PM (#8762534)
    Guess this means they'll put four beautiful people in matching unitards into a capsule inside of that lake, film them 24/7, and see if they survive or not.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    Their existence bolsters speculation that similar microorganisms could be found in frozen brine beneath the surface of Mars.

    Life can survive under extremely harsh environments. All well and good, but not surprising. But can it be created in those same harsh environments. Scientists can't answer that part.
  • by Doppler00 ( 534739 ) on Sunday April 04, 2004 @03:18PM (#8762803) Homepage Journal
    Why does it seem that NASA is so obsessed with finding life on other planets? Not just complex lifeforms, but really simple cellular life. What ever happened to the focus of exploration and manned missions? Finding life should not be NASA's #1 mission, there are other interesting scientific aspects about space exploration that don't involve finding life.
    • Why does it seem that NASA is so obsessed with finding life on other planets? Not just complex lifeforms, but really simple cellular life. What ever happened to the focus of exploration and manned missions? Finding life should not be NASA's #1 mission, there are other interesting scientific aspects about space exploration that don't involve finding life.

      Hmm, probably because there is no single discovery that would have more important scientific and philosophical repercussion?

      Is the emergence of life o

  • by donheff ( 110809 ) <donheffernan@[ ]oo.com ['yah' in gap]> on Sunday April 04, 2004 @03:38PM (#8762908)
    Deception Point already did this story (NASA discovers metorite under the ice with extraterrestrial fossils). I don't want to spoil the plot but suffice it to say there is a lot of deception and conspiring go on. We better look pretty closely to be sure this isn't really a man-made lake.
  • by jeff munkyfaces ( 643988 ) on Sunday April 04, 2004 @04:09PM (#8763153)
    at the moment the techniques used require contaminating chemicals to bore holes and keep them open - if these can not be used, how do they plan to get in there? however they do it, the results could be fascinating - reminds me of the Movile cave in romania (i won't link to their site as it is on geocities..) It contains 33 new species endemic to the system, which rely on microbes using chemo-synthesis rather than photosynthesis - there is a fascinating "ends of the earth" documentary about it, available on DVD as "the secret abyss of movile cave"
  • Nice plagiarism... (Score:3, Informative)

    by BlowChunx ( 168122 ) on Sunday April 04, 2004 @05:23PM (#8763610)
    The write up is a direct copy from the Astronomy Picture of the Day [nasa.gov].
    • by barakn ( 641218 )
      Indeed. I had read the APOD version before this was posted to /., and so it was instantly obvious that it was identical except for the links. How does this make Suman any better than a copy-and-paste Troll? Not that this isn't standard practice throughout the entire news industry....

      And what is up with a low /. id number, no comments, no journal, and only one story submittal? Suman [slashdot.org] is one of the more mysterious shades lurking in the electronic deep.

  • by ndinsil ( 454614 ) on Sunday April 04, 2004 @09:45PM (#8765168)
    Disclaimer: I worked on lakes only similar to Vida and a few years ago, so my knowledge is a bit rusty.

    The headline is wrong; this isn't a closed ecosystem. Sand and gravel from the surrounding valley, laced with microbes, nematodes, and even a species of insect is constantly blown onto the surface where it melts into the ice by solar heating in the summer. Some of that sediment makes its way into the lake itself. Under that much ice the sunlight is quite weak, but still capable of driving photosynthesis, albeit slowly. Every summer a small amout of fresh water from glacial melt fills the lake, replacing water that was lost by sublimation and wind erosion from the ice cap (the ice cap itself is replenished by new ice freezing on the bottom.) In addition most other lakes of its kind form a "moat" of meltwater around the shallow perimeter of the lake during summer; I don't recall if Vida does but it's likely.

    Preservation is a significant concern among the people performing this type of research. Like many things in life it's a balance of how much to defer; too little and the lake could be seriously damaged, too much and we don't learn what we could. In general the sorts of techniques used don't contaminate things to a noticable level; sampling holes are shielded from excessive light, water samples once taken from the lake are never returned, that sort of thing.

    The significance of this research on Martian or Europan life is not so much treating them as direct analogues as it is characterizing what strategies life might use under those conditions, to understand where and how we might look elsewhere. The dry valleys of Antarctica (home of lake Vida) were once warmer and wetter, just as Mars was. If there was life on Mars some of its last remnants likely survived in melt-fed, ice-capped hypersaline lakes. It's certainly imperfect knowledge, but whatever we can learn is helpful.

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