Brine on Mars? 333
Bagels writes "A new article on MSNBC (coming originally from Space.com) reports that the both Rovers may have struck water in the form of brine. The Opportunity rover found hints of salty water in the trench that it dug, and scientists note that the Spirit rover is currently digging a trench of its own to investigate the soil that clings to its treads, suggesting the possibility of moisture. The brine would only be small amounts of water mixed with salt, which can exist in liquid form at very low temperatures. More images are available over at NASA's rover site." Reader
frovingslosh would like to add: "I'm just hoping that when you get around to posting one of the many stories that the rover has found mud on Mars that you might include a link to the slashdot article where I predicted this but got moderated as 'funny'." Done!
Did someone say "brine?" (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Did someone say "brine?" (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Did someone say "brine?" (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Did someone say "brine?" (Score:3, Funny)
Since the scientists are looking for... (Score:5, Funny)
signs of life on Mars, and since it's likely that (being scientists) some of them are Monty Python fans, I humbly submit that the project should be called...
"The Life of Brine".
Re:May have? May have?!?! (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, if you'd like to walk over and verify it personally, be my guest.
Re:May have? May have?!?! (Score:3, Insightful)
It takes more than a 5-minute experiment to get any degree of certainty in science.
Would you rather that they announced fantastically overhyped results before doing any testing?
Frankly I don't know what the big deal is about liquid water and mars. We know that there's plenty of frozen water, and also that the martian
And where there's brine... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:And where there's brine... (Score:5, Funny)
Anyway, like I was sayin', shrimp is the fruit of the sea. You can barbecue it, boil it, broil it, bake it, saute it. Dey's uh, shrimp-kabobs, shrimp creole, shrimp gumbo. Pan fried, deep fried, stir-fried. There's pineapple shrimp, lemon shrimp, coconut shrimp, pepper shrimp, shrimp soup, shrimp stew, shrimp salad, shrimp and potatoes, shrimp burger, shrimp sandwich.
That- that's about it.
Obligatory Seinfeld Misquote (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Obligatory Seinfeld Misquote (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Obligatory Seinfeld Misquote (Score:3, Funny)
And get shot for looking suspicious.
I'm going to go out on a limb here.... (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah, Marlaphants.
Anyone taking bets?
Re:I'm going to go out on a limb here.... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:I'm going to go out on a limb here.... (Score:2)
Re:I'm going to go out on a limb here.... (Score:5, Funny)
Burn, karma! burn!!
Re:I'm going to go out on a limb here.... (Score:5, Funny)
The parent to this comment? Also "+5 Funny" (right now). How long before they discover the Marlaphants?
Re:Marlaphants found! (Score:3, Funny)
Has NASA ever been Slashdotted? (Score:3, Interesting)
a more important existential question is (Score:2)
Re:Has NASA ever been Slashdotted? (Score:3, Interesting)
While they handle the traffic well now, it definitely hasn't always been the case. I was working at Space Telescope Science Institute during the first servicing mission, and when they first put out the pictures from the repair, network access there slowed to a crawl. Of course, this was back in the infancy of the web (Dec. 93). The same thing happened when the comet crashed into Jupiter.
Re:Has NASA ever been Slashdotted? (Score:4, Interesting)
Slightly edited (for brevity) transcript follows:
<root@fennec> nmap -P0 -O marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov
Starting nmap 3.48 ( http://www.insecure.org/nmap/ ) at 2004-02-20 14:34 EST
Interesting ports on 198.5.148.7:
(The 1640 ports scanned but not shown below are in state: closed)
PORT STATE SERVICE
22/tcp open ssh
80/tcp open http
443/tcp open https
Device type: general purpose
Running: Linux 2.4.X|2.5.X
OS details: Linux Kernel 2.4.0 - 2.5.20
Uptime 307.509 days (since Sat Apr 19 03:21:22 2003)
TCP Sequence Prediction: Class=random positive increments
Difficulty=5171621 (Good luck!)
TCP ISN Seq. Numbers: 3223BDE5 331C8EB8 32C3FA5D 32C9082B 3251ECD7 32DC6A8B
IPID Sequence Generation: All zeros
Nmap run completed -- 1 IP address (1 host up) scanned in 11.963 seconds
Let's not forget (Score:4, Insightful)
The first step to empire (Score:4, Funny)
Re:The first step to empire (Score:2, Funny)
If there is water on mars (Score:4, Interesting)
The atmospheric pressure on mars is pretty low [washington.edu], which means that any liquid water (which this apparently is) will be vacuum dried [wustl.edu] to gas and move into outer space.
Re:If there is water on mars (Score:5, Informative)
Re:If there is water on mars (Score:5, Informative)
The same reason they are speculating that it can exist in liquid form at such low temperatures: the phase diagram of a solution can be radically different from the pure substance. In hand-waving terms, the attracion between the salt molecules and the water molecules increases the energy required to evaporate the liquid. This is why they are theorising that it is highly concentrated brine - because if it were not highly concentrated, it could not exist under the temperatures and pressures on Mars. I'm probably not being unrealistic in suggesting that the scientists have thought this all through before publishing the press release.
Partial pressure of salt solutions (Score:5, Informative)
Re:If there is water on mars (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:If there is water on mars (Score:5, Informative)
Re:If there is water on mars (Score:3, Informative)
Gases do move into outer space. Gravity slows down the process, but it doesn't stop it. When you get to the outer atmosphere, the velocity of gas atoms and molecules follow a predictable statistical distribution, dependent on their atomic mass and average temperature. Many atoms and molecules will reach escape velocity, and diffuse away from the planet. What do you think happened to the atmospheric helium on Earth?
Yes, Mars most likely used to have a thicker atmosphere but has dwindled to a lack of volca
Water staying in atmospheres. (Score:5, Interesting)
Molecular weight of helium: 4
Molecular weight of water: 18
Gases escape over geologic time if the mean particle velocity is more than about a tenth escape velocity (if I recall correctly). Light particles at a given temperature (defined by average particle kinetic energy) move faster and so are lost more readily. Heavier particles are moving more slowly, and so are lost at a _much_ slower rate (the tail of the Boltzman distribution is exponential).
The real reason Mars has relatively little water is that water is broken up in the upper atmosphere by interaction with solar UV. While water may not be light enough to escape, hydrogen definitely is (molecular weight 2, and weight of an atomic hydrogen radical formed by a UV event is 1). This mechanism works on all of the planets (especially the inner ones) to strip their atmospheres of hydrogen.
Mars has a less active geology than Earth. We get hydrogen compounds (including water) replenished from volcanic sources. Earth also has a much higher escape velocity, which means that hydrogen is lost less quickly when formed (and has longer to recombine to form chemicals with higher molecular weight).
Both of these help explain why Earth is wet and Mars isn't. On the short term, however, water stays bound in Mars's atmosphere just fine. Those ice caps that migrate seasonally via atmospheric gas transport aren't all CO2, you know.
You can find a number of documents online discussing why Venus did get stripped of most of its water, despite being heavy and having a fairly active geology.
Re:Water staying in atmospheres. (Score:3, Funny)
Re:If there is water on mars (Score:2)
That window gets larger if the water is salty ofcourse.
Re:If there is water on mars (Score:5, Informative)
Most of it probably has. One process could be groundwater carrying dissolved mineral salts being drawn to the surface by capillary action. The water evaporates into the very low pressure Martian atmosphere, leaving the salt as a deposit.
Similar processes take place on Earth where they deposit salt and iron oxides in deserts.
Best wishes,
Mike.
Re:If there is water on mars (Score:4, Informative)
NASA already has some tangential evidence of permafrost on Mars, where it looks like molten rock has encountered subterranean ice [space.com] and places where it looks like something is is seeping to the surface [cnn.com].
NASA did choose these landing sites for evidence of water in the recent past, so perhaps we shouldn't be too surprised that something is going on.
But I guess our best hope is to wait for Mars Express [esa.int] to point its instruments at the landing site. So fingers crossed until then!
Best wishes,
Mike.
Brine predicted before (Score:5, Informative)
My god... it's full of hot-dogs! (Score:3, Funny)
Great! (Score:5, Funny)
Salt? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Salt? (Score:3, Funny)
This just in (Score:5, Funny)
What else would you get by evaporation? (Score:3, Insightful)
Else, all the rocks would only contain non water-soluble materials - hard to imagine.
Speculation: The salt content of the water is probably be linked to the water content in atmosphere. The average evaporation rate for the brine into the atmosphere should match the rate of hygroscopic attraction of water from the atmosphere.
My theory... (Score:5, Funny)
Don't they mean they found spice? (Score:5, Funny)
Other rover was actually taken by a sand worm.
In other news, new rovers will roll without rhythm.
Re:Don't they mean they found spice? (Score:5, Funny)
Be careful (Score:4, Interesting)
The very small particle size of Martian dust makes it likely that it sticks due to static charge. If the soil were moisture laden you would expect it to rapidly dry out and crust over (change appearance) on the wheels of the rover.
Re:Be careful (Score:5, Informative)
No. The amount they are talking about causing this is much much smaller than the amount it would require to saturate it to the point of an observable change in appearance after exposure.
It may even be the result of no water in it now but the result of residual salts left behind by existance of water at some point. Theoretically this could display these properties as well.
Re:Be careful (Score:3, Informative)
Then it is not likely to be enough moisture to bind the soil either. I still think it is lame speculation. You would think the thermal emission spectrometer could detect small amounts of water easily if it were there.
It may even be the result of no water in it now but the result of residual salts left behind by existanc
Re:Be careful (Score:3, Insightful)
I agree with that, with the spectrometer's I thought they would be able to just scan and say exactly what the compositions are.
Re:Be careful (Score:5, Informative)
The brine speculation is coming from people not involved on the project, which space.com is reporting uncritically. The news conference where the project scientists are presenting their information mention nothing about brine.
See the entry for Thursday, February 19, 2004 at http://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/mera/status.ht
Fe2O3 (Score:5, Funny)
Dealerships... (Score:3, Funny)
Not Morocco after all (Score:3, Funny)
Normally (Score:5, Funny)
Ah, but... (Score:5, Interesting)
Tidal forces (being a function of gravitational differential) are an inverse-cube function on distance, and linear with mass, so that would be a tidal force about 1/99th that of which we're used to. (Disclaimer: I am not a Physicist, but I share a house with one.)
While this is Mars, the concern isn't completely insane. If the rover's in position to get a 1% response from the Martian equivalent of the Bay of Fundy [highest-tides.com], we'll be needing yet another Mars probe, and someone at NASA should be needing a new job for putting it there.
Halophiles vs. Viking Landers (Score:5, Interesting)
Its no wonder that Viking [utk.edu] found no clear evidence of life on Mars, the low-salt water in Viking's nutirent broth probably killed any halophiles.
Re:Halophiles vs. Viking Landers (Score:3, Interesting)
??
Gee... (Score:4, Funny)
If only someone [netjeff.com] had mentioned this possibility before.
Wait a minute.... (Score:5, Funny)
Mmmmm, pickels... (Score:5, Funny)
Salt Water Disposal (Score:2, Interesting)
Anybody else want to see a night time picture? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Anybody else want to see a night time picture? (Score:2, Informative)
I could be wrong, and I'm too lazy to look up the article.
Better way to dig (Score:5, Interesting)
I'D MOD YOU UP (Score:2)
That sounds like an interesting idea.
Never even mind "how do we get the lump of material up there", aren't there meteorites or other space-junk that we could snag on the way?
I suppose a solid block of metal has a better chance of reaching the surface, but since mars has a really tenous atmosphere, just how likely is a meteor to reach the surface, I wonder...
Re:Better way to dig (Score:5, Funny)
We saw (or rather not) what happened when the lander crashed on Mars. Seriously, what did they expect ;)
Opportunity costs too high (Score:4, Insightful)
This would be a feasible experiment if slinging 500 pounds of material around the Solar System were something we could do causually, so it's not like it's a bad idea, but at our present stage of development, we'd want that 500 pounds to be probes and satellites and sensors and such that are more useful for making things other then holes.
Resolving Power? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Resolving Power? (Score:4, Informative)
(or about an inch and a quarter for the metrically challanged)
Re:Resolving Power? (Score:5, Informative)
It is definitely a microscope - going down to 30 microns per pixel. A hair is around about 100 microns in diameter.
Sorry I don't have a precise magnification.
If there were things the size of microorganisms in the briny reaches, could we see them?
The objects seen in the ALH84001 meteorite were only between 20 and 100 nanometres (0.02 to 0.1 micrometres) and needed a scanning electron microscope to be seen. So MER can't hope to see them. Terrestrial bacteria are 2 to 10 microns (generally) in size - so the majority of them would also be invisible. There are some much larger bacteria; the largest known Epulopiscium fishelsoni is a whopping 250 microns in diameter.
But it should be remembered that this is not a biological microscope - it was designed for petrological work which rarely requires such extreme magnification.
Best wishes,
Mike.
Re:Resolving Power? (Score:3, Informative)
There is also information about the rover [nasa.gov], and science instruments [nasa.gov] on NASA's site, but these are extremely topical, but also good to look at first. So there you go.
Oh no, not again! (Score:5, Funny)
The mars face has returned!
Dan East
Venutian Beach Front Condos... (Score:4, Funny)
I'm willing to take an entreprenurial risk and say we're overlooking the real moneymaker here... and that's Venus... once Earth moves out of this cushy orbit, Venus is going to move in. A couple billions years after that... Hot Venutian Chicks on my beaches.
awwwYEAH.
Fabric from another planet discovered on Mars! (Score:2, Interesting)
Gotta love science... (Score:5, Funny)
Doh!
With apologies to Nickelodeon.... (Score:3, Funny)
Engineers: Aye Aye, Administrator!
AON: I can't hear you!
ENG: AYE AYE, ADMINISTRATOR!
AON: Ohhhh.... who's driving around on a planet briney?
ENG: Spirit Squarepants!
AON: Along with his good friend Opportunity!
ENG: Spirit Squarepants!
AON: He's grinding at rocks with his robotic arm...
ENG: Spirit Squarepants!
AON: Hoping his file system does him no harm!
ENG: Spirit Squarepants!
All Together: SPIRIT SQUAREPANTS, SPIRIT SQUAREPANTS, SPIRIT SQUAREPANTS
AON: Spirit.... Squarepants!
Cool! Mud... (Score:5, Funny)
That means that NASA can start putting cool mudflaps on future rovers. You know, those flaps with the naked ladies on 'em? R-r-r-r-r baby!
No Life On Mars (Score:3, Funny)
The club scene is a barren landscape, and the whole place is just one big red light district.
water? (Score:5, Funny)
Ok,it's not a game anymore... (Score:3, Funny)
I lost these things since the first grade, sniff, how am I supposed to get them back from there?
Leaky rovers (Score:4, Funny)
Space Elevator already! Forget this stuff.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Static? (Score:3, Insightful)
Also, someone asked "if you took an earth extremeophile and plonked it mars, what would happen".
It might burst and die. It might dry out and die. It might use its energy reserve and die. Its innards might freeze and die. Its DNA and proteins might get fried by the radiation and die. (Notice how many of these involve the word "die"?).
There are one or two genera that might just have time to kick their sporolation apparatus into action and retreat their important bits (mostly tightly packed DNA) into a dry, tough husk. But thats as good as its going to get I would think.
I'm Still Doubtful About Life On Mars (Score:3, Insightful)
So if life on Mars exists now it should be easy to find. So if there is brine type life on Mars it should be easy to find because natural selection would kick in leaving the heartiest lifeforms left to spread as far and as wide as possible. You should be able to find large clusters of the stuff all over. So why haven't we yet? Maybe we aren't looking in the right spots. Maybe we don't have the right scientific tools out there yet. The point is that if life has a foothold anywhere on Mars is should be obvious when we stumble across it.
Re:I'm Still Doubtful About Life On Mars (Score:3, Insightful)
There are a couple faults in your analysis about the possibility of life on Mars.
The first is your statement about life being aggressively pervasive. This is only true in one sample that that we know about, Earth. We have no idea whether there are other types of life that are either not aggressively pervasive or pervasive but not not easily detected.
Second, there are areas, even on Earth, where life is existent but not
Re:This Just In: (Score:5, Insightful)
MOD PARENT UP (Score:5, Informative)
References:
http://www.nature.com/nsu/030210/030210-9.html [nature.com]
http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/express_wate
H2O IS ON TEH SPOKE! (Score:4, Funny)
Re:sigh (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Is this a bizarro universe? (Score:3, Interesting)
Even if there were lakes or oceans on Mars, you wouldn't want to land on them because the probe would be constantly bobbing about, making satellite communications extremely difficult.
So that leaves flat, soft sandy deserts as your only choice.
I see... (Score:3, Funny)
So what you are predicting is Martian rats with salty urine. :-)
REPOST WHORE (Score:5, Informative)
No need to thank me, just not doing my (real) job.
Re:hurrah, we found dirt! (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:hurrah, we found dirt! (Score:2)
Re:Insensitive clod! (Score:2)
Re:Insensitive clod! (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Mars Worms? (Score:3, Informative)
Could these be the worm tubes [enterprisemission.com] you are refering to? More on them here [metaresearch.org] and here [enterprisemission.com]. The worm tubes are a heck of a lot larger than the microscopic images from the rovers. As mentioned in the linked articles, Arthur C. Clark, proposed the glass worm tubes idea.