Isn't It Ironic? 683
gessel writes "Have you ever used the word "ironic?" Do you know what it really means? If not, is that ironic? Was Seinfeld's "irony" really the cause of the utter collapse of civil society as we knew it? How ironic was it for the CEO of MTV to declare irony a victim of 9/11? The Guardian is running a brilliant article that clears the confusion around a culturally critical and chronically misused word."
I find it rather ironic (Score:3, Funny)
However, I don't find it ironic that Slashdot picked up that story...or don't it?
I dunno. I'm confused even more now.
Re:I find it rather ironic (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:I find it rather ironic (Score:2)
So, is this at all ironic? (Score:5, Interesting)
About 300 "dot com" companies, which are mostly famous these days for losing tremendous amounts of money, have agreed to pay $1 Billion [nytimes.com] to settle a lawsuit claiming that they inflated their IPO prices.
I guess it's really sad, rather than ironic.
Of Slashdot won't post a story on this settlement, either because (1) it's not news for nerds [and a Guardian story about irony is??], or (2) one of the dot-coms is VA Software.
Re:So, is this at all ironic? (Score:5, Informative)
What is Irony? (Score:5, Funny)
Oh the humanity....... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Oh the humanity....... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Oh the humanity....... (Score:5, Funny)
Why that IS ironic (Score:3, Interesting)
The IRONY here is that, after the retiring, he *was* injured by a racecar, in less likely circumstances. That is situational irony.
Now, a very
Re:Oh the humanity....... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Oh the humanity....... (Score:5, Funny)
And does anyone remember the Futurama episode where the 80s guy helped Fry make their stock go public? Zoidberg sold his shares of stock for a sandwich, then the stock went up then down in value.
Re:Oh the humanity....... (Score:3, Funny)
thanks for setting things back to normal
Re:Oh the humanity....... (Score:4, Informative)
No, your English teacher was entirely right. First of all, if you use the word "forte" when speaking of your strengths in casual conversation, you will sound like a pompous asshole. Secondly, when not only say it, but also pronounce it incorrectly, you sound like a poorly-educated pompous asshole.
When "forte" is pronounced "for-tay," it is Italian for "loud."
When "forte" is pronounced "fort" it is French for "strength."
While they are spelled the same, they are two completely different words, from two different languages. Neither is an English word, and it should be put in italics when inserted into a written English sentence.
Oh, sweet irony (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Oh, sweet irony (Score:3, Funny)
Your misuse of irony is not ironic either since you have no idea that you are in fact wrong. Were you to know what irony is, then deliberately (and obviously) use irony wrong to make a point that you in fact do know what irony is, then what you said wrong would be ironic.
Re:Oh, sweet irony (Score:2)
Isn't it ironic how much we expect irony?
Old news for me... ironically many. (Score:2)
I've seen this more and more. People who use ironic as a bussword, and as a synonym to "weird" or some such nonsense.
Of course, isn't it to be expected? People do stupider things.
Ask Alanis (Score:4, Informative)
South Park episode display classic irony (Score:5, Insightful)
Irony, as I understand it, is deliberatly saying the opposite of what you mean. No one really thinks Matt and Trey are trying to say that Native Americans are greedy soulless corporate scum.
Re:South Park episode display classic irony (Score:2, Insightful)
When times were bad for the pilgrims, the Native Americans shared what they had with them, hence Thanksgiving. When times were good, the European settlers fucked over the Native Americans every chance they got (and they still do), hence the virtually non-existant Native American popula
Oh knock it off will you! (Score:4, Insightful)
Native Americans were as much as warmongers as Europeans were, just less technologically advanced. Remember, they wanted to buy guns, they wanted the horses, and the whole tribal system was basically a male centered warrior cult mythology. If the Native Americans had invented calculus and sailing vessels first, they would have been spreading smallpox in Europe.
Re:Oh knock it off will you! (Score:3, Insightful)
There aren't a lot of historical accounts of warmongering Native American tribes until a few years of Eurpean influence on a tribe. One of the most striking accounts can be found in the Journals of the Lewis & Clark expidtion (Undaunted Courage by St
Re:South Park episode display classic irony (Score:2)
So... if Matt and Trer are ironic, and if irony is meaning the opposite of what one says, and they're saying that Native Americans are notsoulless corporate scum, then what did they mean.
And, everyone knows that ginger ale doesn't cure colds. It's canadian.
Re:South Park episode display classic irony (Score:2)
Re:South Park episode display classic irony (Score:2)
Re:South Park episode display classic irony (Score:2)
Re:South Park episode display classic irony (Score:2)
Re:South Park episode display classic irony (Score:4, Informative)
Sarcasm 1 : a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain
2 a : a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual b : the use or language of sarcasm
Is that clear enough for you, Einstein?
I would reply - -- - (Score:2)
Next week: proper use of "AKA" (Score:3, Informative)
Example:
There are some OSes out there that really suck... AKA Windows 95
Or worse yet:
Man I'm tired from all of that work, AKA I partied all night.
Ugh.
Re:Next week: proper use of "AKA" (Score:3, Insightful)
There are some "OSes out there that really suck" (AKA "Windows 95.")
I don't even know what the last example is trying to say. I might help it out with a little rewording, if I even understand what you are saying at all.
Man, I'm tired from all of that "work" (AKA "partying.") (AKA used for
Words change in meaning over time (Score:2, Insightful)
We have a grave problem with this word
Well, it so happens to be that we humans constantly shift the meaning of the words in our language. It is believed that the strongest driver of this is the universal appeal in appearing interesting to others.
Language teachers and writers of articles such as this fight a losing battle against such changes in language. Of course, in the long run, a word is defined by the people who use it and not by some dictionary from Oxford. The latter can be c
Re:Words change in meaning over time (Score:3)
Munging twenty or thirty previously seperate words into one concept, however, is never conducive to communication. It's not a mere shift, it's active decay.
By the way, I love you. (To cite the worst offender I can think of off the top of my head.)
Re:Words change in meaning over time (Score:5, Insightful)
This is analogous to 1984 where the language was slowly restricted to eliminate concepts and hence control thought -- which is double plus ungood as it is hard to form complex thought if your vocabulary is limited.
For instance, if we allow irony to come to mean coincidence or poetic tragedy then what word do we use when we really mean ironic?
Re:Words change in meaning over time (Score:3, Insightful)
No, that's a logical fallacy. Mutation of language is neither development nor modernization. It is bastardization. Look at sanskrit, a language that was engineered, and has been kept almost intact for over two thousand years, one reason being that the scholarly class of Hindus kept the language seperate from the common language, the word sanskrita means "refined" or "purified," and is the opp
Irony is chronically misused? Inconceivable! (Score:5, Funny)
Sounds like Zoe Williams (the author of The Guardian article) is taking a line from Inigo Montoya:
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Bomb technician (Score:2)
Oh, the irony... (Score:2, Interesting)
Isn't it ironic?
Here's some Irony (Score:5, Funny)
"Slashdot, home of bad grammar and spelling, posts article about proper grammar. Rioting ensues."
No, here's the irony. (Score:2, Insightful)
The irony is that a Slashdot grammar nazi got it wrong when being a nazi about grammar. Well, OK, it would be ironic if it weren't for the fact that this happens every time someone tries to correct someone else's grammar or spelling. Anyhow:
Grammar: (n) The study of how words and their component parts combine to form sentences.
Grammar is about the structure of language, not its usage. An article about irony is not an artic
Re:Here's some fallacy (Score:3, Funny)
"PM4RK5, master of the inability to discern syntax from semantics, claims that an article about a word's definition is an article about grammar. Yawning ensues."
I find it ironic that... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I find it ironic that... (Score:3, Insightful)
Before long people will throw logic to the wind as long as you cross your T's and dot your I's.
If you don't post in iambic pentameter with a definate rhyming scheme, you'll be ignored.
So, now all we need is moderation categories +1 beautiful, -1 spelling, -1 grammar, -1 invalid use of a colon, and -1 poor word choice.
Next month, from the grammar dept., we'll be discussing the spelling of the letter H. It's actually spell
Speed (Score:3, Insightful)
Anyone else feel like the writer was on speed or something? Break that sentence up man, my head is spinning.
Dave Eggers (Score:2)
"1. When someone kids around, it does not necessarily mean he or she is being ironic. That is, when one tells a joke, in an
Dave Eggers and AHWOSG (Score:3)
[glows slightly] 'tis! an amazing book.
One interesting thing about AHWOSG is the pace -- it starts out slooow, where every incident is described in great detail. It steadily accelerates throughout until the ending which is like "and then everybody grew upandgotahaircutandarealjobhappeverafterTHEEND."
At first I thought it was a little disappointing that such great writing could wind down so trivially. I would have expected it to be more evenly paced, with some brilliant dramatic event unfolding and
Irony is when (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Irony is when (Score:5, Funny)
IMO, MTV killed "irony" long before 9/11/01 by overplaying a certain ill-informed Alanis Morisette video...
Obligatory Blackadder reference (Score:5, Funny)
Baldrick:Yeah, it's like goldy and bronzy, only it's made of iron.
from Amy and Amiability
Re:Obligatory Blackadder reference (Score:5, Informative)
Check the Websters Unabridged Dictionary definition here [reference.com].
Go figure.
Re:Obligatory Blackadder reference (Score:3, Informative)
Irony? (Score:2, Funny)
Fark (Score:3)
Oh my god... (Score:5, Interesting)
If you think the story is crap, you are free to move on. But this being a discussion forum, and "Isn't it ironic..." being on of its favourite phrases, why shouldn't some of us be interested in reflecting the original (yeah, avoiding "correct" here...) usage of this term, and how it is most commonly used instead these days. After all, with some sensitivity for language subtilities you can be much wittier, impress girls, most important get more slashdot karma... (If you don't believe me, try making jokes in any than your first language -- I had to learn this the hard way when I first came to an English speaking country.)
Re:Oh my god... (Score:5, Interesting)
I remember reading a rant by C.S. Lewis describing this very thing. He was saddened by the way that the word "gentleman" had, over the years, been generalized to mean practically any human male. Previously, it had mostly been used to describe a certain segment of wealthy landowners. Lewis implied that this kind of thing was unfortunate, because there no longer remained in the English language a single word to describe a "wealthy landowner" in the way that "gentleman" used to. But there were already plenty of words to describe a "human male".
Take the word "artist" as another example. Certianly, people 50 years ago would have just laughed in your face if you called someone like Britney Spears an "artist". We already had a proper word (or phrase) for describing her kind: "(amateur) musician". "Artist" had a much narrower and more prestigious implication. Now it's used for anyone who can strum a chord on a guitar or melt wax.
Preface to "Mere Christianity"? (Score:4, Informative)
I remember reading a rant by C.S. Lewis describing this very thing...
That sounds like this one here [mit.edu] (about three-quarters of the way down the page).
Re:Oh my god... (Score:5, Informative)
Why can't we once in a while have an interesting non-tech article here without getting hundreds of comments that do nothing but expressing their boredom?
Well, typically on a site that offers "news for nerds" and "stuff that matters" we expect
1) Some of column A (news) or2) Some of column B (pertinent stuff)
Most people have gotten lazy and sloppy and only peruse /. for the cutting-edge (sorta) news, so they forget that it's important to teach geeks to use the language [English] properly. On that note, this discussion isn't exactly new--the linked article focuses heavily on post-01/11/09 misuses, but there's a couple [everything2.com] of [everything2.com] great writeups at e2 [everything2.com] that address this same point quite well. If you're looking to hone verbal skills, lurk and read there for a while -- it's an educational experience.
Everything I learned about irony... (Score:2)
Isn't that ironic?
*walks away in shame*
Def: Irony (Score:2)
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dict i on ary&va=irony
Iro.ny
Pronunciation: 'I-r&-nE also 'I(-&)r-nE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -nies
Etymology: Latin ironia, from Greek eirOnia, from eirOn dissembler
Date: 1502
1 : a pretense of ignorance and of willingness to learn from another assumed in order to make the other's false conceptions conspicuous by
The sun is ironic (Score:2)
NO, IT'S NOT. (Score:2)
And no, this post isn't being ironic, either.
ironic: ..back in '95, or '96 (Score:2)
He won the lottery and died the next day
It's a black fly in your Chardonnay
It's a death row pardon two minutes too late
Isn't it ironic... don't you think?
Chorus:
It's like rain on your wedding day
It's a free ride when you've already paid
It's the good advice that you just didn't take
Who would've thought... it figures
Mr. Play It Safe was afraid to fly
He packed his suitcase and kissed his kids goodbye
He waited his whole damn life to take that flight
And as the plane crashed down h
Brilliant article? (Score:2)
BTW, what is this doing on
Who was that? (Score:2)
George Carlin quote (Score:5, Informative)
Re:George Carlin quote (Score:3, Funny)
how extraordinary (Score:5, Insightful)
sarcasm or irony, truth and nihilism (Score:5, Funny)
Perhaps the distinction is making an argument, or trying to point out a truth, rather than just a cheap joke. Some intention or belief at the bottom of it that carries it from a joke to an actual argument.
To me, that's the interesting part of this discussion of irony. I think many of these misuses of the word are defensible, using one definition or the other, but the thing that I find troublesome is that so often this claim of irony is accompanied by a refusal to acknowledge any sincere belief.
Mocking everything isn't irony. I think the modern (arguably inaccurate) idea of irony, with its affectation of nihilism, is a really interesting starting point for a social discussion. People will brag about what they don't believe, but won't talk about what they do believe, or display art that they pretend that they would be ashamed to really enjoy.
I think the problem is that people don't know what they believe. They don't even know that they believe anything. The canned answers are inadequate, but they manage neither to rationalize and complete these for themselves, or to find other things to believe in. They believe incoherent and contradictory things, and pretend belief in nothing. Unfortunately, believing nothing is just as useless a way to go through life as believing everything.
There is an attack that is often made on skeptics. "Oh, you don't believe in anything." However, the skeptics I know have unusually strong beliefs, and understand that their beliefs have implications in the world they live in. That is what makes them skeptics.
In this vein, there was a great article in Spy magazine about a decade ago on "irony". It even had Chevy Chase grinning on the cover and making the quote symbol with his fingers. I'll have to dig that up again.
I think this quote expresses it beautifully:
Simpsons, Homerpalooza
Teen1: Oh, here comes that cannonball guy. He's cool.
Teen2: Are you being sarcastic, dude?
Teen1: I don't even know anymore.
Re:how extraordinary (Score:4, Insightful)
Therefore the references he made to sources like the Onion would probably more likely qualify as sarcasm (and strictly for the sake of humor; I disagree with the comment that sarcarm is only nominally for hurtful situations) and not irony. Irony would be if the Onion ran some tongue-in-cheek article about Gates and then the next week, Gates actually did something close to what they described...
Thus their comments were "sarcasm",
Gates actually doing so would be "irony",
and while "coincidental", it would also fall under the umbrella of irony. Plain coincidence would be if Cnet said that Gates should do something, and then he happened to do it.. Nothing ironic there. But when the Onion publishes a farsical untruth, which then comes to fruition, *that* would be irony.
Oh look, a dead horse... now where's my bat...?
MTV got it straight long ago... (Score:5, Funny)
Stuart: Ironic?
Butthead: No dumbass, an English word.
Beavis: Umm,.. cool?
Butthead: Yeah. That was cool.
Isn't it Alanic? (Score:5, Funny)
"'It's like rain on your wedding day' NO! That's only ironic if you're marrying a weatherman and he picked the date!"
He gave anything that is labelled ironic but blatently isn't, the title of Alanic.
That was enough for me to use the word more appropriately!
Re:Isn't it Alanic? (Score:3, Informative)
I remember that!
I believe it was Ed Byrne [chortle.co.uk]. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Exact Quote (Score:3, Funny)
I may not know irony... (Score:5, Funny)
That's why English is a "living" language. (Score:5, Insightful)
I have shot Lorna. This is not a joke. (Score:4, Funny)
what "texting" really needs is a global slashdot-style qualifier, such as
+5, Serious
"I have shot Lorna."
Ah, some freshmeat at slashdot! (Score:4, Insightful)
I was reading "Age of Irony" by Jedediah Purdy at http://www.prospect.org/print/V9/39/purdy-j.html and it all seemed to gel at last.
I have never understood why I really hated that term "don't take yourself too seriously." Well, at least now, I can study the true depths of its meaning, so as to form a counter argument.
First, what they mean, is now clear: among those who take themselves seriously, exists a large subset of people who are pompous, self-righteous, and at the worst extreme, people who are given to justiy the worst atrocities in the name of an ideology or religion.
But now, let's look at this (from Jedediah Purdy's essay):
My argument is, that 'irony', or more specifically, people who religiously take nothing seriously, have mired this society in utter apathy.
To accurately and concisely describe the state of affairs we are in now, I will offer two quotes (one I got clarified right here at slashdot):
I would add the quote "Those that stand for nothing, fall for anything" (author yet unknown to me), but the "irony" generation does profess to stand for something. What it is, Providence only knows. Let us look at this, shall we?
Ironic thinkers - those who eschew seriousness and approach life with jokes, pokes, and the 'laid back approach' - accuse their opposites of being intolerant, self-righteous hypocrites. But these same modern 'ironic' thinkers are the ones who brought us
Intolerance, hate, and the politics of division:
Fat bashing
Geek bashing
Religion bashing
Male bashing
Self-Righteousness:
"Get Over It" as the cure-all mantra for all manner of life traumas (abuse, molestation, etc.). What the 'ironic' thinkers forget, in this, is that everyone has issues - the profound lack of social support systems in modern society is as equally the fault of apathetic "I don't have time to listen to this, so get me my beer or get lost!" as it is the fault of Christian Repressionist "You must have demons inside you, let us drill a hole in your head to make it go away" ignorance.
To note: the 'irony' crowd tends to have a profound and sometimes verbally and physically violent reaction towards people in emotional distress. The irony of this is these same people then have nowhere to turn when they themselves are depressed or feel their life is in a rut. It is not uncommon that recreational drugs are then used to provide counsel.
Hypocrisy:
SUV owning activists gathering at Starbuck's to drive out to the "No War For Oil!" protest
I can discuss a multitude of other examples here, but I won't get into it.
Ultimately, apathy, the child of ironic thinking, is why we are seeing all of our rights being taken away by the RIAA and MPAA, etc. Apathy and the refusal to be serious about things, is why our politicians and corporations continue to practically dick we the people over with impugnity.
A populace that was more serious and less apathetic, would never allow such things to transpire for so long.
Of course, a really serious, and politically active populace, might be predisposed to frequent revolts, or to
God is an iron. (Score:5, Funny)
Irony = un-American (Score:3, Funny)
Of course, if you're reading this and you're American, no offence intended. After all, everyone knows you guys make the best TV shows.
An ever worse word... (Score:5, Insightful)
For instance: "His performance was so great! It literally blew me away."
Unless "he" was performing an imitation of a hurricane, the above use of "literally" is blatantly incorrect. Unfortuanately, all too often, "literally" is being used intechangeably with "really" and "absolutely", which is a real problem.
If fear it won't be long before "literally" is meaningless, and you won't have any way to telling someone you are not speaking figuratively.
Re:An ever worse word... (Score:3, Funny)
My favorite example is the phrase "literally and figuratively" (which is mostly used to mean "really, really, really"). A friend of mine who has a beef with the misuse of irony made the categorical statemen
THIS is irony.... (Score:5, Funny)
mtv's death of irony (Score:3, Interesting)
MTV's president didn't declare irony dead. Robert Thompson did on a Viacom program (which may or may not have appeard on MTV, it might have been VH1). I remember this because Rober Thompson is a media whore of the first order and anytime he pops up, I know the program using him was put together with a minimum of effort.
If you pay attention, you will see Thompson show up with eerie frequency any time a peice about the current culture is done. A quick Google news search for "robert Thompson" and Syracuse (the university at which he is employed) turns up 50 articles [google.com] with quotes from this guy.
All this guy must do is sit around and answer the phone all day.
We need a new mod option: (Score:3, Insightful)
(or maybe -1 Ironic)
Was Seinfeld the peak of sitcom culture? (Score:3, Insightful)
Just now I have realized the extent of the vaccuum left in Seinfeld's wake. And you know what.. I don't feel the least bit bad about it. Truly, we have witnessed the peak of entertainment television. I might live to be one hundred, and not experience the likes of this show again.
Re:Horrible story (Score:2, Informative)
Sometimes it is done unintentially, othertimes it is done in the hopes of getting a product name out there ("I googled for it...", "Want a coke?" when you actually mean any generic soda, etc...) and other times it is done for the sake of brevity.
Irregardless of the motivation, the language evolves and eventually it becomes accepted enough and then it gets put into the dictionaries.
I had an interesting discussio
Re:alanis. (Score:3, Informative)
The True Irony of Alanis Morissette [mellowfellow.com]
Alanis Morissette sings a song titled "Ironic" on her album Jagged Little Pill. In this song she offers vignettes of situations where life is going well and then suddenly takes a turn for the worse. She exclaims, "Isn't it ironic...don't you think?" My answer: "No!" I have critically analyzed her lyrics and have found only 1 ironic episode therein. Ultimately I hav
Re:alanis. (Score:5, Funny)
Isn't it ironic that your analysis was discredited by your taste in music?
Re:alanis. (Score:2, Funny)
This sets up a paradox though, if the song is ironic because none of the lyrics are ironic yet the title implies that they should be. Well then the title makes sense and is not ironic anymore. Go back to step one rinse and repeat ad infinitum.
Re:alanis. (Score:2)
Re:alanis. (Score:2)
Re:alanis. (Score:4, Funny)
Re:alanis. (Score:2, Funny)
You are right, of course, that Alanis Morrisette is the biggest moron of them all. I'm beginning to believe that she is not worthy of me. She's so uncultured and illiterate that she hasn't answered even one of the 2,152 letters I've sent her in the last 3 years.
Re:alanis. (Score:2)
Actually thats just to remind the current controllers just who is really in control.
Re:alanis. (Score:3, Informative)
The general consensus before the war was, "there are probably some, but probably not a lot, and Saddam is a weasel bastard." The general consensus after the war is "there is probably none, possibly some, and Saddam is a weasel bastard." Of course, we can't "take back" back the war, anymore than we can
poor alanis. (Score:4, Interesting)
I saw an interview on television where she said this, but I just don't know if I should believe her. She said this after the whole world said the title of the song was the only thing ironic about it. But she is a clever gal, and I know how frustrating it can be when no one gets your irony, so I chose to accept her statement despite my doubts.
BTW Never try an ironic arguement in a room full of christian's whose parents are in the military. They will believe you are serious when you say we should wipe out the Swedes because they are just too blond. There is no one there to see the absurdity of their arguement that they shouldn't be wiped out because while they are not Baptists or Presbiterians they are Lutherans and Lutherans are still Christians. (My father was Lutheran, my name is Lutheran, I'm Scandinavian, and I was wearing a "Make Love Not War" pin. High school just made me want to beat my head against blunt objects, at least it was only the intro courses in college where people thought Brave New World was a good prescription for how we should live our lives.)
That's not irony Alanis! (Score:3, Informative)
A free ride when you already paid?
That's not irony that's just being an idiot.
Rain on your wedding day?
Oh yes look at the levels of irony in that one. No wait, it's just 'bad luck'.
Good advice that you just can't take?
Puhlease....
Self-important Brits? (Score:5, Insightful)
Some of us are in fact well aware that a good deal of Americans (especially sitcom writers) are well-versed in irony, some a lot better than us (have you *seen* our hospital dramas? ER versus Casualty is really no debate).
The thing to be pointed out here is that self-importance on the part of a few Brits AND Americans is what started this "Irony Is Dead" thing in the first place. Sweeping statements never do anyone any good credibility-wise...
Re:New Meaning (Score:3, Insightful)
Even sadder, my English teacher used that song as an example of irony.
Now THATS ironic. I think.