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Toys Science

Aqwon, the First Hydrogen Scooter 269

Posted by CowboyNeal from the environmentally-safe-scooting dept.
An anonymous reader writes "After 10 years of research and development, Josef Zeitler has developed the first hydrogen-filled two stroke engine scooter with technical approval from the German TÜV. In case of an accident, the tank will freeze and no fire or explosion would occur. Anyone can fill-up the tank on the scooter within 3 to 4 minutes, without being in any danger. The pressure sensor will transmit the data to a computer chip, which will then accumulate and send the necessary information, regarding the proper hydrogen mixture, to the injection jet. This process of refilling is possible with a newly developed system consisting of pressure tanks and a hydrogen generator. AQWON's top speed is about 50 km/h (31 mph), the power is 2.6 kWh and the weight is minimal. This is the same as a petrol/oil two stroke scooter. There is no extra maintenance service required."
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Aqwon, the First Hydrogen Scooter More

Aqwon, the First Hydrogen Scooter

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  • Cool (Score:5, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 31, 2003 @09:18AM (#6084223)
    I wonder what materials the engine is made of? Hydrogen embrittles metals so a current ICE would fail much more quickly if running on H2.

    The home fueling station is nice. Throw in a solar panel or two and now we're talking.

    But alas it's a scooter and scooters in America are like dating fat chicks: you'd like to ride it but you don't want your friends to know.
    • It might just be a scooter now, but this is the engine technology that could very well power future cars, trucks, SUV's, etc. One has to start somewhere.

      • Re:Cool (Score:2, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward
        I don't disagree with you at all. The #1 (IMHO) problem is how expensive is that fueling station? There won't be public H2 stations for some time. Honda has a home refueling pump for their natural gas powered Civic GX sedan. It costs at least three thousand dollars and takes approximately 8 hours to refuel the car. Ignoring the refueling time (which is pretty long), the cost may make it prohibitive to install a home refueling station which will in turn make it more difficult to sell H2 powered transpor

        • Re:Cool (Score:3, Informative)

          by Qzukk ( 229616 )
          The cost should pretty much be in the pumps and whatever coupler you're using to connect the storage tank to the fuel tank. Of those, I wonder how well a standard compressor (relatively cheap) would do with Hydrogen. I expect that the pressure in the fuel tank is likely higher than an average compressor can reach.

          The coupler will be the big thing. It has to be strong enough to maintain the connection, it has to close on disconnect so that your tanks don't leak and you don't wind up getting your skull cr
          • I don't think that the H2 is in liquid form. The site seems to indicate that it is stored at quite low pressure.

            Is 50 bar enough to be dangerous? SCUBA tanks are 230 bar [combro.co.uk]

          • I wonder how well a standard compressor (relatively cheap) would do with Hydrogen. I expect that the pressure in the fuel tank is likely higher than an average compressor can reach.

            Part of the problem is the size of hydrogen. Hydrogen doesn't just hang around as hydrogen, it forms H2 molecules for a little more chemical stability. Even though these are larger than H atoms, the molecules are still tiny enough that they seep through the walls of cast iron tanks (the way acetylene does, but worse). Anything

            • Interesting points. Yeah, the higher temps would tend to cause more and different reactions in the air itself, even when the H2/O2 aren't directly involved. As to the seepage issue, is there any way to channel this, such as by lining the tank with a thick layer of some material that the H2 would tend to ooze along more than through? (thinking a sort of directed capilary action)

              And I can imagine the, ah, acceleration if the tank suffers a puncture wound, or gets the bib knocked off. Story from one of my col
            • Even though these are larger than H atoms, the molecules are still tiny enough that they seep through the walls of cast iron tanks (the way acetylene does, but worse). Anything which will seep through cast iron is not suitable for use on a motor vehicle, for what should be obvious safety reasons.

              That depends entirely on how much seepage you're talking about. It's like saying that since gas stations emit gas into the air it's obviously unsafe to have cars around them.

              This is OT but the company that suppl
            • Anything which will seep through cast iron is not suitable for use on a motor vehicle, for what should be obvious safety reasons.

              Oh pulllleeeeze you don't build a hydrogen engine out of cast iron!

              I've driven around in plenty of aluminum block engines, aluminum and hydrogen are compatible materials (e.g. the space shuttle hydrogen filled tank is made from it).

              The energy to split the hydrogen out of compounds must be coming from somewhere. How do you do it? Primarily with existing electric generation tech

          • (there are also chemical reactions which generate only H2, however these require something else to be added to the water... like aluminumm, which forms aluminum oxide and H2.)
            You can simply mix an acid (in an aqueous solution) with metal to form H2 and a salt:
            M + 2HA(aq) -> H2 + AM

        • fueling station fits inside a cabinet (Score:5, Informative)

          by nounderscores ( 246517 ) on Saturday May 31, 2003 @10:04AM (#6084464)
          The fueling station fits inside a cabinet. the multimedia presentation shows a person posing with it, where it is installed next to a washing machine. The fueling station appears to be some kind of electrolosys device connected to mains water and power (site says that solar power might have enough energy to do a good job too) and storing the hydrogen in ordinary looking gas cylinders. Refueling takes 3 to 4 minutes according to the website (click the link to "Description of innovation" on this page [aqwon.de] - they like to put their info in little popups) and provides enough fuel for a 100km range.

          The engine is oil free by virtue of design (uses some other lubrication method which they don't describe), and is very light.

          I think that there might be a future in installing coin-op/creditcard refuel points in colleges and public transport hubs. All you need is water, power and city approval.
      • Actually, it's a tiny clean motor with nonexplosive fuel storage so I want to see some scaled up versions powering the hydraulic system of those gun toting powered exoskeletons we see in Matrix Reloaded guarding gate three!

        Imagine what it would be like to run down the street in one of those!
      • > this is the engine technology that could very well power future cars

        Don't think so. The trend is firmly in the direction of fuel cells and electric drive. The world is moving more and more into a solid state direction--more computers, less moving parts--because less mechanical complexity means more reliability and lower price (well, theoretically anyway). The overall achievable system efficiency of fuel cells and high efficiency electric motors is also considerably higher than what you can get with IC
    • There are bound to be metals that this doesn't cause a problem for. I do know that titanium is affected by H2 embrittlement, at least durning annealing (which means heat... engine heat would probably cause problems, too). But what percentage of H2 is needed for it to be a problem?

      You need to have less than a 42% H2 mix with air (I can't remember if air is 21% O2 by volume or weight... you need twice as much H2 by volume, or 16 times more O2 by weight), which might be enough to fix the problem. Metal

  • First Hydrogen, eh? (Score:4, Funny)

    by zonix ( 592337 ) on Saturday May 31, 2003 @09:18AM (#6084224) Journal

    Amazing! By any chance would it be codenamed Hindenburg, then? :-)

    z

    • Re:First Hydrogen, eh? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by pe1rxq ( 141710 ) on Saturday May 31, 2003 @10:03AM (#6084463) Homepage Journal
      Actually the Hindenburg disaster happened because its hull was basicly made out of explosives.
      Althoug hydrogen is flamable, so our oil based fuels

      Jeroen

    • Re:First Hydrogen, eh? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by halo8 ( 445515 ) on Saturday May 31, 2003 @10:17AM (#6084512)
      ya know.. im be anal here..

      but..

      this post ISNT funny, this is the kind of backward 1930's thinking that has been holding everything back for the past 66 years..

      35 ppl died thats it.. just 35.. thats a CNN story for a day.. nothing more, big fireball thats it. big deal

      hydogen cars and new airships have been soo promising from new transport ships, to rescue, to heavy lifting construction, to communication platforms..

      but its your kind of backward mentality that is stopping investors from exploiting a wonderfull resource
      • this post ISNT funny, this is the kind of backward 1930's thinking that has been holding everything back for the past 66 years..

        Dude, settle down, it is just a joke - if I were backwards thinking I wouldn't be pro nuclear.

        z
      • It was the first big disaster caught on film.

        Likewise, the hazing incident at a local high school wouldn't have been noteworthy, except it was video taped. Club fires in 2003, or Rodney King in LA, or on and on.

        People had died in huge numbers before, but now they could see it in theaters for themselves.

    • Re:First Hydrogen, eh? (Score:2, Informative)

      by JanneM ( 7445 )
      The Hindenburg was actually designed for helium, not hydrogen. Due to an embargo on the sale of helium to Germany at the time, they decided to try hydrogen as a substitute. Of course, it thus lacked some safety features that would otherwise have been given with that choice. Since the Hindenburg was a major PR thingy for Nazi Germany, it was decided that it would be safe anough anyway.

      Just another example of how PR-based wish fulfillment is trumped by reality...
      • Incidentally, the disaster would most likely have occured even if helium had been used, since the fire started with the highly flammable aluminum powder-coated skin. Maybe fewer people would have died or burned, since the fire wouldn't have spread quite so quickly into the interior, but it would probably have gone down anyway.
    • Hindenburg... Because if at first you don't succeed, give up.

  • Range (Score:5, Insightful)

    by gerf ( 532474 ) on Saturday May 31, 2003 @09:18AM (#6084230) Journal

    is 100km. That's not bad at all really. But still, the major question remains: where are we getting hydrogen from?!

    We don't have large hydrogen producing plants, and we don't have a major distribution center to support it. I'm assuming you'll have to fill up your tank at home, which means installing a LOT of equipment, at GREAT expense, at least until a good distribution system is in place. Yes there are some hydrogen refueling places, but not really that many yet.

    I support many of Bush's plans, but he really has to drop oil, and focus on something even more proven: that technology advances, and new products replace the old.

    • I get the hydrogen for my Jeep [franceisoc...ermany.org] from retail outlets that market it under a different name.

      It goes a heck of a lot farther than 100km on one tank too!

    • Re:Range (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 31, 2003 @09:27AM (#6084276)
      I wonder if this would not make a good replacement for lawn mower engines and the like. They are already being singled out as major producers of pollution. Range would not be a big problem for the typical user. The fuel coudl be generated with a system that generates a trickle of hydrogen, such as solar or wind, with maybe electrical as a backup.

      Would be nice to see hydrogen get any kind of foothold in our economy.
      • The normal way to generate hydrogen is to crack it out of natural gas. I've read of hydrogen 'appliances' under development that are hooked up to a home's gas main as a way of refueling various hydrogen vehicles until real hydrogen filling stations becomes a reality.
      • How about a trickle system that uses atmospheric moisture, and draws it as the lawn mower is in operation? That way there is no tank to worry about, and when you shut it off, any leftover H2 can dissipate without being a problem.

        Of course it wouldn't be efficient in dry climates, but in that case, just add a damp sponge to the air intake to provide the water.

        Come to think of it, wouldn't a larger trickle system (using a water tank) get rid of the "dragging around a perforce-leaking, puncture-vulnerable ta
        • How about a trickle system that uses atmospheric moisture, and draws it as the lawn mower is in operation?

          Ok, I'm probably missing the obvious but where are you planning to get the energy to draw the moisture out of the air and seperate the H from it?

    • Re:Range (Score:2, Funny)

      by nomadic ( 141991 )
      There's hydrogen all around you! Here's how you can get some:

      Go to your faucet. Fill a glass with water. Put your mouth as close to the surface of the water as you can. Breathe in all the oxygen.

      What will be left is pure hydrogen!
  • Well, just like it except my Jeep [franceisoc...ermany.org] has the same maintenance in reality, this scooter has the same maintenance in theory.

    So, it's just the same except newer and different :-)

  • motor insurance (Score:2, Interesting)

    by romit_icarus ( 613431 )
    hmm I wonder how much premium I'll have to pay to insure this baby

  • hydrogen vs. electric for "scooters"... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by ptorrone ( 638660 ) * <pt.adafruit@com> on Saturday May 31, 2003 @09:22AM (#6084247)
    this looks pretty interesting, i'm not sure i'm sold on hydrogen quite yet. i just got away from "filling" up by using electricity for my transportation needs.

    hydrogen requires quite a bit of energy to create, it's volatile, the only companies that really have the infrastructure to pull this off are the folks we get gas from now.

    i currently use electricity to charge my "scooter" i get the power from solar panels or any plug anywhere (at work, on the go, etc..) anytime. i can charge up anytime and the power from a power plant is far cleaner than hydrogen production at this time.

    i think hydrogen and electric is far better than petroleum, but hydrogen forces me to "fill up" electricity does not and it's everywhere and can be made with solar, wind, hydro, etc...

    it seems like hydrogen gets us to a more profitable proposition for companies, it's like printer cartridges and razors blades for shavers, we need to keep buying. with electricity, it's different-- we can plug in anywhere, but the gas companies do not make money off that. i think that's the other reason the auto-industry is moving away from electric cars and more towards hydrogen and hybrid, granted...batteries aren't perfect either, if the systems are not planned properly you won't be able to recycle the batteries.

    read more about my ride here at my site. [bookofseg.com]

    cheers,
    pt
    • You mean you don't pay for electricity? Or maybe you mean you make your own or buy it from some little Mom&Pop shop? You do realize that 99% of our electricity comes from companies every bit as large and powerful (no pun intended) as the oil companies you seem to love to hate?

      Your logic is faulty.
      • i have a solar array. i don't hate any oil companies at all, i do try to find other sources or power and propultion than are not oil based, but i'm not opposed to it. people need cars, we need gas, i'm interested in other methods, i can use those so i will. the power in my are (over 70%) comes from a hyrdo plant, they're not a big huge powerful company, this is washington state and it's not the same as the rest of the country, i do understand that.
  • I applaud AQWON's efforts in zipping up the photos [aqwon.com] to help battle the slashdotting, but unfortunately the first .zip file is 70,224 bytes which contains a .jpg that is 70,160 bytes and 70,110 bytes packed. So zipping the file INCREASED the size! Nice try though, AQWON.
  • Now I can go out and replace my gas guzzling scooter with a more environmental one!

  • Oh, for crying out loud! (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    This story doesn't have anything to do with SCO! Come on, where's today's SCO story? This isn't funny, man, I need my fix!

  • Safety (Score:5, Funny)

    by Waffle Iron ( 339739 ) on Saturday May 31, 2003 @09:28AM (#6084282)
    In case of an accident, the tank will freeze and no fire or explosion would occur. Anyone can fill-up the tank on the scooter within 3 to 4 minutes, without being in any danger.

    Unfortunately however, failing to learn the lessons of history, the manufacturer coated the scooter with a shiny silver coat of volatile powdered aluminum rocket fuel.

    • The American's caused the Hindenburg disaster (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      The American's were unable to deliver the German's the promised amount of helium, due in no small part to the Helium Control Act of 1927, which made it illegal to export helium.

      The Hindenburg was yet another FINE example of German engineering. The American's just couldn't back up their promises, and presto, you have a disaster.

  • Alternative-powered vehicles seem to be crippled.. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Sleepy ( 4551 ) on Saturday May 31, 2003 @09:35AM (#6084321) Homepage
    There seem to be a number of "alternative" vehicles, but even if you ignore cost, refueling, etc. in the USA they are impractical for one major reason:

    You can't drive them in enough places.

    I DON'T expect these things to drive on the interstate highways at 55+ MPH, but...

    AFAIK, most of the electric and other alt-vehicles will do 30MPH (48kph). That's great if you ONLY want to drive through your city center but it's useless anywhere else. Not just this vehicle, but lots of alt vehicles are governed to very low speeds, and then you have general cars/motorbikes/trucks. There's nothing in-between.

    Most cities have flattened out into suburban sprawl. Here there are as many people (and jobs) AS the city proper. Good luck driving anything limited to 30MPH on a 40MPH road: it may be legal, but you'll probably be pulled over by an ignorant policeman (or one trying to protect you from the 30 cars tailgating and making illegal passes around you).

    There are a lot of drivers who believe if you impede their progress, you are stealing their lifeforce and so you are attacking them and they must defend themselves by going into "road rage" mode.

    I'm not kidding either. It's perfectly legal to pedal your bike on most non-interstate (highway) roads, but unless it has a wide paved margin/edge like a breakdown lane, good luck... you'll be run off the road. The police generally aren't interested unless you are seriously hurt or someone recently died. In my small city, they ticket bikes on the sidewalk but not hostile drivers.

    Sorry for the rant. An alternative-powered scooter would be SWEET if it ran 40mph with a range of 100 miles. Then you could drive to work and back without feeling like you were "asking for trouble" on the road.
    • Alternative-powered vehicles seem to be crippled..

      Not this one [theaircar.com].

      Dimensions: 3.84m, 1.72m, 1.75m
      Weight: 720 kg
      Maximum speed: 130 kmh
      Autonomy: 200 to 300 km
      Recharging: 4 hours (electric)
      Recharging: 3 minutes (air station)

      • Very nice. I like the way you can recharge it overnight at home, AND in three min at an air station. Interesting how it uses the force from the expanding piston to compress atmospheric air from in the compressing piston and heat the pistonface to 400C before injecting compressed air and letting the 400C gasses expand and cool to 30C.

        Very nice vehicle. I'm sure some overclockers will install piston heaters to get the peak face temp higher without using combustion...
    • ignorant policeman

      Dunno about where you are from, but in Australia we have two main driving based offences that are criminal: Driving in a manner dangerous to the public, and driving at a speed dangerous to the public. These laws are to leave a loophole for magistrates so that they can procicute any smartarse doing something that is risking other people's lives but are legal according to all the other laws. So if you are driving at 10km/h on a freeway, you could be arrested and charged criminally for driv

    • The size, effect and top speed is quite understandable. In Europe, those are the limits for a scooter that you are allowed to drive at the age of 15 and without a driver's license. That speed is also the normal speed for city traffic, and the way many european cities are organized, there is no problem driving such a machine to and from work, for example.
    • Most cities have flattened out into suburban sprawl.

      Which itself is 95% of the "transportation problem" -- people spreading out across the landscape needlessly.

      if there was greater density in NorthAmerican ciites, we could EASILY cut down our pollution drastically if mixed-use development, and high-density residences were encouraged. Sprawl wastes tax money (increased services, useless road cleaning/building, etc) NOT just pollution and environmental disaster...
    • What? Alternative vehicles don't have enough performance? In Maine they do (and anyone who tells that it's impossible is lying).

      Check out the UMaine Solar Vehicle Team's projects. [maine.edu]

      The Phantom Sol (fully electric) has a top speed of well over 120MPH, 400ft/lbs of torque, and a range of over 100 miles at highway speeds (65-75 mph). The 0-60mph time is around 8-9 seconds, depending on road conditions.

      Using a 280HP 9" DC motor with 1800-amp controller (yes, 1800 DC amps - there's some thick wires inside)

    • You can't drive them in enough places.

      Maybe that's something that should be solved. After all, there are millions of people who average less than 30 mph on their way to work every day. If highways would ditch the carpool lane and turn it into a scooter lane maybe we'd see more use. Or better yet, keep the carpool lane, let scooters use it, and make the maximum speed 30 mph.

      Those are just two possibilities off the top of my head. I'm sure there are others that we could come up with. Your concern for

  • Nitpick (Score:5, Informative)

    by Ed Avis ( 5917 ) <ed@membled.com> on Saturday May 31, 2003 @09:45AM (#6084375) Homepage
    The story contains a typo - the power output is about 2.6kW, not 2.6kWh (which would be a measure of energy).

    Of course, if you are like the freezer manufacturer who quoted their product's power consumption in 'kilowatt hours per week', you could say that the scooter produces 2.6kWh per hour...

    • Of course, if you are like the freezer manufacturer who quoted their product's power consumption in 'kilowatt hours per week'

      Considering that electricity is sold by the kWh, this isn't unreasonable...you can multiply kWh/wk by the $/kWh given on your last bill and get $/wk fairly easily, which is what you would want to know when you're in the market for a fridge.

      (That said, the article's usage of kWh was incorrect. Furthermore, given that we're dealing with a mechanical device and not an electric dev

  • Is that "airspeed" ? (Score:3, Funny)

    by jlrowe ( 69115 ) on Saturday May 31, 2003 @09:51AM (#6084405)
    AQWON's top speed is about 50 km/h (31 mph), the power is 2.6 kWh and the weight is minimal.

    If this thing is filled with hydrogen, will the weight be less that nothing? In other words, will it float midair? If so, what is the airspeed?

    Hey, this could be cool! I want one of these!!!

  • Sweet (Score:5, Funny)

    by gfilion ( 80497 ) on Saturday May 31, 2003 @09:59AM (#6084448) Homepage

    I don't know why [logidac.com], but I'm really [logidac.com] attracted [logidac.com] by this scooter.

    Those germans sure know about marketing...

    GFK's


    • Mac is the Harley-Davidson of computers.

      So what are you saying, exactly, by this signature? Are you truely intending to say that macs are stylish and trendy, but don't hold a match to their competition in terms of performance, quality, and innovation? Surely you must be kidding.

      Macs are generally everything that they claim to be, and (can practically) outperform PCs of similar costs, now that you can get an iMac for what, 800$? Most PCs are a haphazardly thrown together pile of last-generation hardware

  • Amazing.. (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    It's amazing that the Hindenburg disaster still causes Hydrogen paranoia today. Even after it was proven that the hydrogen didnt contribute much to ther disaster (lesson: dont use huighly flammable material). After Titanic, how come we still have ships?

  • Lubrication? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by jhines ( 82154 ) <john@jhines.org> on Saturday May 31, 2003 @10:22AM (#6084531) Homepage
    How is the engine lubed? Gas two cycle engines "burn" the lubricating oil, a not terribly environmentally friendly process.
  • ... DISAPPEAR!

    As much as I'd like to see this take off, I'm willing to bet it will either die from lack of interest, or too much differing interest. Sucks to be capitalists.

  • Hydrogen and public fear. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by MongooseCN ( 139203 ) on Saturday May 31, 2003 @11:02AM (#6084721) Homepage
    When people think of hydrogen they think of the Hindenburg burning up. As it turns out it was not the hydrogen that caused the Hindenburg to burn, it was the coating on the balloon.

    It's funny how people who fear using hydrogen to power anything still pump natural gas directly into their kitchen stove.
  • They're both cool, until your friends see you riding one.

  • For the hydrogen-phobic (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Stonent1 ( 594886 ) <stonent AT stone ... intclark DOT net> on Saturday May 31, 2003 @01:53PM (#6085752) Journal
    Fill a baloon with Hydrogen and light it. You get a nice, fast, fluffy flame. Fill a baloon with 2 parts Hydrogen and 1 part Oxygen and light it and your neighbors will be calling the police, because they'll think you just set off a stick of dynomite.

    Now, not many people worry about the tank of propane that is attached to their grill. There isn't any oxygen inside that tank, so it is perfectly stable.

    For those who cite the Hindenburg as a hydrogen failure, do some reading on further scientific investigations. The outer cloth was covered in a explosively flamable chemical which ignited before the hydrogen was an issue.

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