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Science

Microbes Pass Valuable Gas 44

Posted by michael from the tiny-bubbles dept.
inimicus writes "Wired reports: 'With a reliable source of hydrogen, fuel cells can produce energy with water as the only byproduct.' The good news is that there's a functional prototype (measuring 0.7 square centimeters and less than 1 millimeter thick) that produces 1 microwatt of power -- approximately enough to power a digital wristwatch. Personally, I'm intrigued by the concept of powering my laptop with sugar-water..."
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Microbes Pass Valuable Gas More

Microbes Pass Valuable Gas

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  • How is the "Battery Life"? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Marillion ( 33728 ) <ericbardes@gm[ ].com ['ail' in gap]> on Wednesday May 21, 2003 @09:27AM (#6006647)
    Obviously this is still a long way from running my laptop. But, does anyone who might be involved in this stuff know what the projections are for how long a typical "charge" will last before you have to "recharge." The metaphor being how long you can go before you must resupply nutrients and/or enzymes and/or biologicals.
  • There are simply too many possible jokes to be made for this, but it would be nice to pour sugar into your gas tank and drive till the next utility store.

    Couple this with cold fusion and you have germs passing gas and powering entire cities.

  • I just can't resist... (Score:3, Funny)

    by Ioldanach ( 88584 ) on Wednesday May 21, 2003 @09:35AM (#6006718)
    I can just see myself in 15 years carrying around a laptop with a bacterial battery. "Oops, power's low, must be time to feed the laptop."

    Of course, when the battery dies, it really dies.

    • "Of course, when the battery dies, it really dies. "

      If my experience with a Tomogatchi is any indication, this technology will be a moneypit.
    • According to the article, they're thinking about using this for implantable devices like pacemakers. Imagine the consequence of too little sugar in the bloodstream then. "I'm dying for a snicker's bar" indeed. B-)

  • Sugar Water (Score:2, Funny)

    by j-turkey ( 187775 )
    Personally, I'm intrigued by the concept of powering my laptop with sugar-water...

    Why not -- I'm sure that when in coding-mode, most of us are already powered by sugar-water (insert favorite carbonated high-fructose corn syrup based beverage).

    --turkey
    • Dude, I don't want to have to buy Coke (not THAT coke, perverts!) for my computer too!

      It would be interesting if this could be used in the next generation of humanoid robots. Can't you just imagine a robot walking into some bar/restaurant (probably in Japan) and ordering soda? One step closer to making the Matrix a "reality".

      Isn't that just a terrible pun?
      • Can't you just imagine a robot walking into some bar/restaurant (probably in Japan) and ordering soda?

        Reminds me of Bender...only he needs booze :)

        -turkey
  • So that's the advanced technology that the Bugs had in MeninBlack! (Remember: "Give me sugar. In water.")
  • So if you wanted to overclock could you just dump in one of those giant Pixie Stix?
  • No, it wasn't me! It was the microbes!

    <waves hands behind fanny>

  • Hydrogen balooney (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Muhammar ( 659468 ) on Wednesday May 21, 2003 @11:07AM (#6007404)
    "a 53-cubic-foot reaction chamber would provide enough hydrogen to run a 200-kilowatt fuel cell and supply energy for about 20 houses"

    1. I do not believe that they can produce that much hydrogen from this much volume - maybe she is talking about the peak output her 15 liter tank, multiplied by the factor to get to 200kW "to power 20 houses".

    2. 10kW per house is actualy very little - this is another example of "data massage". Average hair dryer takes about 2kW, so does ironing your shirt or vacuum your room. I am not talkig about things like electric laundry dryer or A/C. I *lived* in place which had 20Amp circuit brakers (which gives 20kW at 120V), and the circuit brakers were out all the time. We had an electric heater, but neither A/C nor laundry in the apartment.

    3.Running fermentor is not the easiest thing to do - you have to keep the microbes happy - the output can vary, there can be problems with contamination (some mold gets in which wipes out the bacterias over time) etc. And they smell bad.

    4. Using a fermentation tank to power laptop is pure unmitigated balooney - here the power source can be more expensive than with household source. With laptop, the premium is on weight+size. Much more compact and fairly affordable source of hydrogen for laptops can be sodium borohydride: this is a common industrial chemical, water-stable and 40g of the stuff + 40g of water produces 8g of hydrogen, which is one of the best weight ratios with nonelectrolytic sources of H2.

    5. Enviro-technologies development: most of the time it's a confederacy of shabby science, political pressure and populism. The surest way to protect enviroment is to find a different job for pop-science enviromentalist - preferably in gender studies or postmodernist deconstruction university departments.

    • Re:Hydrogen balooney (Score:2, Insightful)

      by battjt ( 9342 )
      In Indiana we average 1.5 kW. 13,018 kilowatt-hours per year in 1999.

      You weren't constantly blowing breakers, just during the peak.

      This system might need batteries, but it could work.

      Joe

    • Re:Hydrogen balooney (Score:4, Informative)

      by barakn ( 641218 ) on Wednesday May 21, 2003 @11:59AM (#6007784)
      Average hair dryer takes about 2kW, so does ironing your shirt or vacuum your room.

      And I suppose you iron your shirt 24 hours a day. I just calculated a thirteen month average of my home's electrical usage (data straight from the power bill), and it comes out to 0.765 kW. The two of us use a 25 year old refrigerator, an electric hot water heater, electric stove, '80s vintage dishwasher, clothes washer and dryer, and limited electric baseboard heating and a space heater during the winter. Oh, yeah, and the computer, tv, stereo.....and lights. And a 24/7 fan to eliminate radon. And the iron and vacuum

      I *lived* in place which had 20Amp circuit brakers (which gives 20kW at 120V), and the circuit brakers were out all the time.

      Your electrical system's inability to handle peak usage says nothing about average usage.

    • Re:Hydrogen balooney (Score:3, Interesting)

      by mfarver ( 43681 )

      10kW per house is actually very little - this is another example of "data massage". Average hair dryer takes about 2kWMost hairdryers are about 1500 watts, and only used for short (5 minute) periods of time. A standard outlet is only capable of supplying 15 amps, even when connected to a 20amp circuit.I live in a 1000sqft house in the South Central US, with high Air Conditioning bills. A "bad" month is 1300kwhrs, divide that by 720hrs in a month and you get only 1.8kw per hour on average, 10kw is actually

      • Re:Hydrogen balooney (Score:2, Informative)

        by mohaine ( 62567 )
        Actually a 20amp breaker is will trip if asked to give more than about 18amps for longer than 5 minutes.

        Ah, no. At least not for comerical grade breakers.

        In college I worked calibrating breakers and they were required to 'break' at 135% voltage within roughly 5 to 45 minutes(Exact time range depending on the ampage of the breaker). Of course it is possible thatt different mfgs calibrate them a litte different.
    • I'd just like to add to how little power 20kW is. I lived in an apartment with a 15A fuse that would blow if I had my computer (+monitor) on while I microwaved something and the fridge would kick in (because guess how much the temperature drops when you open the door of a 20-year old freezer). Yes, the wiring was ancient, and after greeting the maintainance guy by first name, finally convinced him to put a 30W fuse in, despite his objections that he didn't think the wires could take it.

      • Yes, the wiring was ancient, and after greeting the maintainance guy by first name, finally convinced him to put a 30W fuse in, despite his objections that he didn't think the wires could take it.

        I'm guessing you meant 30A. He was wrong to do that, your wiring most likely couldn't take it, and had something gone wrong, there would have been a fire. The right thing to do would be a slow blow fuse to handle the spikes.

    • I *lived* in place which had 20Amp circuit brakers (which gives 20kW at 120V)

      How do you arrive at those figures? Surely 20Amps * 120V = 2.4kW?

      • How did I arrive to this number?

        By decimal error.

        I do not like the hydrogen energy hype and the proposal to use fermentation tank to power laptop sent me balistic.
        Sorry for the mistake. The useful output would be around 2kW, 2,4kW is just the nominal value.

  • Actually.. (Score:2, Interesting)

    by IpsissimusMarr ( 672940 ) *
    There was a piece done one MSNBC just last week about Ford (or maybe Chrystler) developing a hydrogen fuel cell car. And they already have a working prototype.

    They have a new car making scheme with it. The fuel cell is very small and is located in the bottom chassis of the car. You can have one or two types of 'bottoms' of fuel cell and just put a different 'top' chassis on them.

    With two fuel cell designs you can make SUVs, compacts, etc. just by changing chassis.

    Production expected in 5-8 years I b

    • Re:Actually.. (Score:3, Informative)

      by sigep_ohio ( 115364 )
      I believe that was GM's idea. They are developing a skateboard style bottom that encompases all the major components of the car(ie. motors at each wheel, electrical supply, computers, etc.). Then you buy the tops from the dealer as you see fit.

      It is a neat idea, but they still have to make it pass safety regulations. Some of their tops call for windows from the floot to the ceiling. I question how they will get that to pass safety tests.
      • Ford [ford.com] actually has one and Honda [hondacorporate.com] is testing one in the US, meanwhile Shell opened a filling station" [athygli.is] in Iceland [sorry I only had the PR firm link] as a joint venture with several companies. By the way Iceland is now using hydrogen public transit.
      • The AUTOnomy was out last year and this year they came out with some speculative tops for auto shows. A lot of ideas get thrown out at auto shows as big 'WOW' producers but actually make it into production vehicles with a lot less boldness. Auto shows are for demonstrating how wild you can get and to fire the imagination. The skateboard with bolt on top allows car designers to create wildly innovative designs, something that hasn't truly happened since we standardized on a steering wheel and pedal control s
        • innovative designs, something that hasn't truly happened since we standardized on a steering wheel and pedal control system many decades ago.

          Yeah, I long for the good-old-days when all cars were steered with a tiller! ;)

          -
    • What about storage space? Two car garages aren't enough for most people, so imagine having to put two or three chassis in with two cars. It just wouldn't fit. It's a good idea, otherwise. The only reason our family has three cars is so we can have an SUV, so this would free up a car. I hope to hear more on this in the future.
    • What about storage space for these tops? Two-car garages aren't enough for most people, so imagine having to store two or three tops along with two cars? A good idea, otherwise. The only reason our family has three cars is so we can have an SUV. I hope to hear more on this in the future.

  • Water Vapour Greenhouse Gas? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by DeadVulcan ( 182139 ) <dead,vulcan&pobox,com> on Wednesday May 21, 2003 @01:59PM (#6008917)

    I often hear people touting hydrogen because the only by-product is water, which sounds wonderful... However, I suspect that's only because we can drink the stuff.

    But isn't water vapour the most potent greenhouse agent in our atmosphere?

    Not sure, just asking.

    One must also ask how much water vapour is currently in the atmosphere, and how much would be added by large numbers of hydrogen-driven power plants. Again, I don't know. Anyone know of any research on this question?

    • Has it ever occured to anyone that water can be condensed? Of course that would mean our roads would either be covered with water or there would be designated drain areas, but one can avoid pumping water vapour into the air by cooling it. The air rushing by a car could easily be tapped by an intercooler to cool the vapour enough to make water. If we used storage tanks in the cars for the water, the water could be recycled or dumped into fresh water drainage systems.
    • You need to understand that water condenses and falls back to the earth as water. Water Vapor doesn't just build up in the atmosphere like CO2 does.

      Plus, you have to get this hydrogen that is producing the electicity from somewhere. The most likely source is of course water.
    • Not only is this waste product a powerful greenhouse agent, worldwide hundreds of thousands of people die each year from inhaling the stuff! Many tens of thousands of them children!

      Write your legislators today! Ban dihydrogen-monoxide! DMHO inhalation kills!

      -

    • But isn't water vapour the most potent greenhouse agent in our atmosphere?

      yes, but IIRC the water and CO2 absorption spectra are complementary; IOW
      , CO2 and water block different IR "colors".

      Since there is a lot more water vapour (0..4%) in the atmosphere than CO2 (0.035%), CO2 changes are much more important.
  • No way, man. Let those fuel cells run on vodka [psu.edu]. But keep yer mits off my Jolt! I do not want to have to choose between feeding my laptop and feeding my aqueous caffeinated sucrouse habit. It won't be pretty! So just back away from the Jolt, ok?
  • i think the key is to redesign the microbes so that they use as little energy for their own functions as possible.. craig venter is trying to do something like this, by sequencing a ton of micro-organisms from seawater, and then building one with desired capabilities from the ground up
  • So we will be running the place on microbe farts. If only they could put some of these in our guts and we could power our own cars.

    I guess it really would be the gas pedal.

    But seriously this is great research. I dream of a day when this technology is viable. Especially if it powers my '64 Impala with the same power.

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