

Digital DNA Circuits 157
TheSync writes "ScienceNews has a story about digital DNA circuits. The circuits use proteins that activate or deactivate genes on the DNA for control. Since an inverter and an AND gate have been created, any digital logic circuit can now be done in DNA. Moreover, evolution can help make circuit elements work better. There is even a "databook" of BioBricks circuit elements and BioSPICE for biocircuit simulation."
And, not (Score:2, Interesting)
Oh! (Score:2, Interesting)
Seriously though... what's the delay on these things? Comparable to silica versions?
Re:Oh! (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Oh! (Score:2)
That sounded a bit low to be considering that some bacteria replicate every 20 minutes, so I did a google search. Most popular google report is 500 nucleotides per second in bacteria, plus some reports of specific bacteria running 1000 per sec.
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Re:Oh! (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Oh! (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Oh! (Score:1)
There's a novel on this subject, "The Paris Option" by Robert Ludlam. Terrorists steal a DNA computer and use it to break all of our encryption codes and wreak havoc on the U.S. military and infastructure.
Re:Oh! (Score:3, Insightful)
And while DNA is compact, 2^128 and 2^1000 are really big numbers. 2^128 is about 10^38, and 2^1000 is about 10^300. A pound of hydrogen has about 10^27 atoms, so even if you use one hydrogen atom per key, you need nearly a billion tons of hydrogen just to get 2^128 atoms, let alone a billion DNA molecules.
All this attention from comp
Re:Oh! (Score:2)
Oops--that should have read "let alone 2^128 DNA molecules".
Re:Oh! (Score:2)
I agree: Would it be illegal to kill (turn off) such a computer? Would it be illegal to overclock with controlled substances?
In all seriousness, however, there are some pretty amazing things that could be done with a DNA-based computer. The fact that it is actually in base-4 rather than the traditional base-2 allows much more data to be stored along a given chain. (Yes, I'm aware that there are only 2 combinations of the 4 chemicals, but you can arr
Re:Oh! (Score:1)
Huh? (Score:2, Funny)
Re:You better understand it... (Score:1)
imagine that (Score:5, Funny)
A new kind of science (Score:2)
They're missing the point.
I think that the most exciting thing about this research thrust to make packages of genes that you can plug into a genome and expect to see it work is that it is concurrant with Stephen Wolframs's A New Kind of Science [wolframscience.com].
Sure Wolfram claims to have invented everything from Mathamatica (fair enough)
but then... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:but then... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:but then... (Score:2)
Re:but then... (Score:1)
Imagine the parallelism you could get with a few mL of DNA, though. A DNA CPU would be the ultimate multithreaded computer.
--JoeRe:but then... (Score:2)
Motorola anyone??? (Score:1, Funny)
DNA computing and Cryptography (Score:2, Interesting)
Imagine coding all possible keys as dna, mixing in the message, and pulling out the only possible and logical match -> your decrypt.
Or am I just dreaming?
Jw
Re:DNA computing and Cryptography (Score:4, Interesting)
Even your body doesn't rely upon chemical reactions to accurately predict certain outcomes. Studies have shown that nerve fibers in your arm will often send a "the ball is coming" signal to your brain well in advance of the actual signal reaching your fingers. This sort of predicative function makes complex tasks like walking and talking much easier, but when it catches up to you (like when you fall on the bottom step of a flight of stairs because you forgot how many steps there were) you crash and burn.
The point is, that chemical reactions are very slow. If they were faster, your brain (and your neurons in your arm) wouldn't have to guess. Because they're so slow they'd be very poor at brute force attacks, regardless of the sheer number of cells.
So, yes, you're dreaming.
Parallel (Score:2)
So run them in parallel. A billion DNA strands can fit on the head of a pin. More could fit in a beaker.
Re:DNA computing and Cryptography (Score:2)
Re:DNA computing and Cryptography (Score:1)
Re:DNA computing and Cryptography (Score:1)
In this case, it isn't really an issue of the speed of chemical reactions (which oftentimes are not slow at all - they can be nearly instantaneous). The electrical impulse that moves along each nerve is very fast, of course, but the slowdown occurs between nerv
Re:DNA computing and Cryptography (Score:2, Informative)
watch out for motorola (Score:1)
Illuminate Me (Score:2, Interesting)
Okay, this may seem short-sighted, but if silicon circuits are so much faster, why not simply design silicon-to-carbon interfaces rather than try to redesign the wheel? Unless there's some level of functionality that's not applicable on the silicon side, I don't see why the results of a process couldn't be approximated. In the article, for instance:
It's far easier to describe the schematics of these circuits than to build them for operation inside a cell. For instance, to hook up one gate to the next, th
Re:Illuminate Me (Score:1)
Re:Illuminate Me (Score:2, Interesting)
They are hacking the instructions written the code that cells already understand. This might allow f
Re:Illuminate Me (Score:2, Insightful)
I wasn't saying the interface would solve the problem. I was saying that if I designed a cell to respond to an external stimulus with a certain protein production, I'd have a handy interface. Instead of building a cell to light up in the presence of a complex chemical compound, I could then simply have a cell send a protein to a circuit which could then send a signal to a led. Or, vice-versa, I could program a complex series of actions into a processor which would then interface with said S-2-C cell which w
linkages (Score:1)
Re:Illuminate Me (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Illuminate Me (Score:1)
Wasn't this what nano-technology promised us years ago? We would all have tons of nanites roaming through our bodies, cleaning up the arteries and destroying cancerous cells. So far though, little concrete has been developed.
I'll believe it when the applications actually arrive. And unlike nanites, these cells depend upon chemical reactions...I'm not sure I'd trust someone to inject tons of living cells into me the same way I'd trust them to inject tons of non-living machines into me.
Re:Illuminate Me (Score:1)
The other advantage is unlike nanites, these things are very temporary. Our immune systems would nuke them pretty quickly, within a few hours in most cases. But for uses like insulin production, you'de have to develope one that was resistant, or actually lived somewhere e
Death.. (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Death.. (Score:2, Funny)
Well, it sort of is. As I understand it, death is usually just a lack of oxygen to the brain (explains why guillotine victims seemed to be alive a few moments after being decapitated -- there was still blood/oxygen/power in the head, feeding the brain.
[insert supreme being/philosophy etc.] called... (Score:5, Funny)
He's been in contact with his lawyers and is tallying your bill as we speak.
Re:[insert supreme being/philosophy etc.] called.. (Score:2, Funny)
Re:[insert supreme being/philosophy etc.] called.. (Score:1)
He's been in contact with his lawyers and is tallying your bill as we speak.
UPDATE:
He/She/They/It has sued for control of her/his/their/its intellectual property, which the judge granted. He/She/They/It may order return of all IP active immediately, or up to 100 years from this date at the parties discretion. Due to the omnipotent power of the suing party, no other legal enforcement has been deemed necessary.
Could you program these bacteria… (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Could you program these bacteria… (Score:1)
Re:Could you program these bacteria? (Score:2)
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Self-improving circuits (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Self-improving circuits (Score:2, Interesting)
DNA, maybe. DNA is fairly good at reproducing without errors. RNA, on the other hand, isn't that good with errors, but is much quicker. (Ask any virus.)
My thought is this: as soon as the process becomes complex, errors introduced into each cell could produce vastly different results. And the debug process would be tortuous. There'd be no guarantee that a single mutation couldn't bring down the whole system.
Re:Self-improving circuits (Score:1)
DNA and RNA don't replicate themselves, they need the help of enzymes called polymerases [weihenstephan.de]. These biological machines unwind the template DNA or RNA strand and create a complementary copy (A pairs with T, G with C). Along with the template reading and synthesis domains, there is also a proofreading domain, checking to ensure that the right match has been mad
Re:Self-improving circuits (Score:2)
genetic algorithms are somewhat flaky (Score:2)
Secondly, they do come up with very interesting results (sometimes), but often these results are not really what you'd want. I can't seem to recall details (if anyone has a reference I'd appreciate it), but I recall about a decade ago someone evolved a timing circuit that used something like 20% fewer gate
"DNA computers can be randomly mutated" (Score:2)
They can do the same, auo mutate, compare circuits topology using the game of life rules and "automatically" reconfigure and evolve to compare their results to an etalon measure.
=> Seem to remember a FPGA test where the goal was tone recognition. The FPGA was programmed to try and get a wave analysis and recognition tested against set rules.
After X generation, not only did the processor perform the deed asked, but had modified it's gate in a way even the engeneer that designed it didn't envision,
New female DNA logic circut states (Score:5, Funny)
NO
MAYBE
Re:New female DNA logic circut states (Score:1)
YES - Meaning Yes
NO - Meaning No
YES - Meaning No
NO - Meaning Yes
MAYBE
The only thing you can be sure of is the MAYBE state.
Re:New female DNA logic circut states (Score:4, Funny)
MAYBE.You should have noticed already
MAYBE.NO but I don't want to be the one to say it
MAYBE.You had better know I mean YES
MAYBE.Let's just be friends
MAYBE.Are you being sensitive to my needs
MAYBE.DON'T EVEN THINK OF PLAYING QUAKE RIGHT NOW OR YOU WILL BE SINGLE
And there are a lot more potential substates yet to be catalogued in the interface.
Woman Are Quantum Computers (Score:3, Funny)
NO - a definite no
MAYBE - a superposition of yes and no
Re:Woman Are Quantum Computers (Score:2)
Re:New female DNA logic circut states (Score:1)
Cheers
Stor
Great (Score:2)
The DNA circuits will be used in mainstream computing hardware.. The DNA wired computing hardware will become Skynet.. The DNA wired computing hardware that becomes Skynet will become self-aware.. You know the rest of the story.
Where's my tinfoil hat?
Don't know how 'wow'-ing this really is... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Don't know how 'wow'-ing this really is... (Score:2)
What is DNA going to be doing in another ~60 years?
No wow at all (Score:2)
More interesting are the abstract pattern creation systems. Think about the following example.
Fly legs have precursors in maggots which are flat disks. The disks are concentric circles of pr
Evolution of Programming Languages? (Score:2, Interesting)
Any suggestions on what you would like to see if a new language was developed for this platform?
Re:Evolution of Programming Languages? (Score:1)
I thought YeaST was the installer... [google.com]
--Joeproteins (Score:2, Interesting)
Cliff Notes version (Score:2)
Not to stir up the scare-mongers and doom-sayers but that is one huge can of strangely colored worms.
Combine this w/ personalized medicine and you might live to be 600, albeit going to the doctor every week for a Ser
Re:Cliff Notes version (Score:1)
No problem: just make a few tweaks to the Palladium specifications so MS + CIA own your body in addition to your computer, documents and household appliances.
Next up for review.. (Score:1)
Nooooo not again... (Score:2, Funny)
Resemblence between programmable DNA and Java (Score:2)
I found particularly enlightening the apparent similarity between Java applets and programmable DNA:
"Eventually, the goal is to produce genetic 'applets', little programs you could download into a cell simply by sticking DNA into it, the way you download Java applets from the Internet," says Timothy Gardner, a bioengineer at Boston University.
While it would have been better if it resembled something better supported in open source, it is a relief that it is not modelled after the patent-encumbered CLI-b
Grey goo theory? Super sperm? (Score:4, Funny)
Will women have to worry about guys with DNA-computer enhanced sperm, so unprotected sex could mutate a woman into a ninja turtle?
Will I be able to code myself urine that tastes like apple cider and poop that tastes like swiss chocolate?
Re:Grey goo theory? Super sperm? (Score:2)
Given some of the fetish videos out there, I'd make that german chocolate
Re:Grey goo theory? Super sperm? (Score:2)
Teletubbies not so far fetched... (Score:4, Funny)
BTM
Re:Teletubbies not so far fetched... (Score:2)
NOT gate (Score:4, Informative)
Spaghetti Code (Score:5, Interesting)
The guy interviewed correllated the DNA genetic map to spaghetti code, a programmers worst nightmare. Apparently all through the genetic make-up of our bodies are "fuction calls" (to put it simply) and pathways that reference other calls and other pathways, over and over upon itself for a hundred million lines.
Its not the listing of the GTAC code (ie, genetic map) that's really necessary. Though of course it plays a part. Its the understanding of such code, what it does and what it controls, where power lies.
The guys interviewed all guessed it would be a hundred years or more before we began truly understanding what "functions" do what in the DNA strand and how it affects the organism in question.
Food for thought.
Re:Spaghetti Code (Score:1)
Re:Spaghetti Code (Score:2)
I wonder if we could decompile our VM and reverse engineer DNA back into it's original source code.
I'm guessing it's something like LISP
The article link (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Spaghetti Code (Score:2)
Bad guess. If you check google there are plenty of articles about specific projects on track to build a minimal synthetic cell within a few years.
It will be a while before we work out the functions and subtlties of all genes, but we're off to a decent start.
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Documentation (Score:2)
These developers, they never document anything. Would a few comments really have been all that difficult?!
Re:Spaghetti Code (Score:2)
Re:Spaghetti Code (Score:1)
Can we use these basic building blocks to help improve our knowledge base of biology? Could this be used as a link to help more efficently understand more biology? Could there be a way of coding biological structures to communicate with a more typical logic-program? The logic-program could help output data in a form we're more accustomed to.
Re:Spaghetti Code (Score:2, Insightful)
This seems a little strange to me. I am a fourth-year PhD student in Molecular Biology and I see a lot of Biology misinformation on slashdot.
What the NPR interviewee said does appear true. Howeve
Spectacular? I doubt it. (Score:1, Flamebait)
After looking at the article for a couple of minutes, a couple of things are clear to me:
1) being able to encode logic circuts using DNA != being able to program nano-size virus-like bio-bots to follow your instructions. The "processors" that drive life in virii, bacteria and cells do not follow instructions of this sort. Sure, you might be able to produce an organic computer that can 'run the program', but it won't be alive, it won't reproduce and it'll be a hell of a lot slower than a similar computer
Re:Spectacular? I doubt it. (Score:2)
Re:Spectacular? I doubt it. (Score:2)
Wow, that's ironic. My first draft concluded with "... sounds like somebody wants their funding increased."
Maybe we should start a club, eh?
When will this be available (Score:1)
Re:When will this be available (Score:1, Flamebait)
Keep working (Score:3, Insightful)
The sequencing work done to date is phenomenal. Not trying to sell anyone short. However, the complexity when you move from the genome to the proteome can be fairly described as staggering, so I'm weighing in on the conservative side on this one.
Entertaining cross-reference (Score:1)
How would speeds be compared? (Score:1)
BioBricks - Pretty laughable really (Score:2)
It reads rather like a treatise on basic cloning written by someone who had a look through Maniatis (Sambrook for the newbies) and pretty much understood most of it.
The plasmids with "ampecillin" resistance genes, and their MCS with an "Echo RI" site, good lord...
Origins of this stuff (Score:4, Informative)
These guys were poking around with some genuinely interesting ideas. Their idea was that if you relaxed the requirements on manufacturing quality, you could make nodes that were super-cheap with a modest (but today-considered-unacceptable) failure rate. They set forth a collection of programming axioms that treated a sea-of-nodes as a continuous computational "gunk". Very cool stuff.
Oh, the irony... (Score:4, Insightful)
Today I read here http://www.sciencenews.org/20030426/bob11.asp (Computer circuits made of genes may soon program bacteria)
"Silicon circuits perform complex operations using a handful of simple components known as logic gates. Genetic- circuit engineers are now building the same devices inside cells."
I wonder, what she would have thought, to know that very thing she was studying could some day be used to do the math that took up so much of her time.
First application sensors? (Score:2)
This isn't (yet?) an attempt to build a bio-computer (although from the article they've apparently already reached the Blinkenlichts level: The result was a population of gently twinkling cells like flashing holiday lights, Elowitz says. "It was very beautiful," he says).
I do this... (Score:2)
Differentiating stem cells in the body take a signal (concentration of a chemical species) and differentiate into different cell types (more than two different cell types).
Sometimes, it's like an 'if then'
Re:how much wasted to decimal ? (Score:1)
Good question(?): none. It's DNA, not math. There is no number base. (Sorta' like "there is no spoon")
Re:Sounds Good but (Score:2)
Re:serious question, please answer! (Score:2)