Bombing the Moon for Water

s20451 writes "In 1998, NASA scientists deliberately crashed the Lunar Prospector into the Moon, in a failed attempt to detect traces of water allegedly hiding in deep craters at the lunar south pole. Now the BBC is reporting a new proposal to attack the lunar poles with "Bunker Buster" missiles to liberate a detectable amount of water. Called Polar Night, the mission is being proposed as part of the "Discovery" series of probes."

What is this MSNBC?

[OwnerOfWhinyCat]

They aren't going to attack the poles with "Bunker Buster" missles.

They're going to emplant "scientific equipment" "...a few meters below the surface of the moon."
Using "...probes are based on bunker-buster penetrators."

And when compared with the cost of sending up a [wo]man to dig a six foot hole for the same information, it sounds terrific. Let's Terraform!

Re:What is this MSNBC?

[Znonymous Coward]

No, MSNBC would just embed reporters on the moon surface equipped with "video phones".

Attack the poles?

[missing000]

They aren't going to attack the poles with "Bunker Buster" missles.

Yeah, they already did that about 60 years ago.

what do you mean?

[Anonymous Coward]

go U.S.A! we're totally going to KICK THE MOON'S ASS!!!

Re:what do you mean?

[hazem]

"By God, I think this is rather very unlikely. This is merely a prattle. The fact is that as soon as they land on the moon, we will besiege them and slaughter them. Wherever they go they will find themselves encircled." - Lunar Information Minister, Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf, on NASA forces

Re:what do you mean?

[Waffle Iron]

go U.S.A! we're totally going to KICK THE MOON'S ASS!!!

When we get done bombing that piece-of-crap spheroid it's gonna look like a figgin' moonscape!

Re:what do you mean?

[Pharmboy]

go U.S.A! we're totally going to KICK THE MOON'S ASS!!!

Yea, just use a GPS guided MOAB and...oh wait....

Tsk tsk

[Tomble]

we're going to KICK THE MOON'S ASS!!!

Shame on you, you really shouldn't be reducing Operation Lunar Freedom to such jingoistic terms.

Re:what do you mean?

[redtail1]

You're against the bombing of the moon? What are you, unpatriotic?

Re:What is this MSNBC?

[spongman]

I think they've just run out of places to look for Osama Bin Laden.

Re:What is this MSNBC?

[Shoten]

NASA could probably sell this better to the current Administration if they ran with the bombs concept, and said that bin Laden might be hiding on the moon :)

Not to be excessively picky but…

[HalfStarted]

Just how exactly do you expect a Massive Ordnance Air Blast to work without the air? For those that need to be reminded... read [howstuffworks.com]

Re:Damn…

[HalfStarted]

Ok... string me up for not reading my own linked article through... its not the best description... an air blast weapon gets most of it's explosive power by dispersing a fine mist of a highly reactive agent over a large area using the oxygen in the surrounding atmosphere as the oxidant. Thus... no air... no boom, in all reality I would bet that most if not all conventional explosives would fail to detonate in space due to the lack of atmospherically supplied oxygen... any demolitions experts here that can

Re:Damn…

[drinkypoo]

I'm not a demolitions expert, but I do have Google [google.com] at my disposal.

Course Note 01 This paper is for homework purposes only OXYGEN BALANCE (OB) IN EXPLOSIVE MATERIALS Faisal G. Hashem August 12, 2001 Heat of Formation The general formula for explosives is CxHyNwOz. Explosive reactions are oxidation reactions. More generally, the oxidizer does not have to be oxygen; it can be an oxidizing salt such as Nitrate or Perchlorate.

Etc. (http://www.mines.edu/Academic/mining/csm_isee/csm _ee_course_notes/cn_mn [mines.edu]

The "Moon": A Ridiculous Liberal Myth

[Anonymous Coward]

It amazes me that so many allegedly "educated" people have fallen so quickly and so hard for a fraudulent fabrication of such laughable proportions. The very idea that a gigantic ball of rock happens to orbit our planet, showing itself in neat, four-week cycles -- with the same side facing us all the time -- is ludicrous. Furthermore, it is an insult to common sense and a damnable affront to intellectual honesty and integrity. That people actually believe it is evidence that the liberals have wrested the last vestiges of control of our public school system from decent, God-fearing Americans (as if any further evidence was needed! Daddy's Roommate? God Almighty!)

Documentaries such as Enemy of the State have accurately portrayed the elaborate, byzantine network of surveillance satellites that the liberals have sent into space to spy on law-abiding Americans. Equipped with technology developed by Handgun Control, Inc., these satellites have the ability to detect firearms from hundreds of kilometers up. That's right, neighbors .. the next time you're out in the backyard exercising your Second Amendment rights, the liberals will see it! These satellites are sensitive enough to tell the difference between a Colt .45 and a .38 Special! And when they detect you with a firearm, their computers cross-reference the address to figure out your name, and then an enormous database housed at Berkeley is updated with information about you.

Of course, this all works fine during the day, but what about at night? Even the liberals can't control the rotation of the Earth to prevent nightfall from setting in (only Joshua was able to ask for that particular favor!) That's where the "moon" comes in. Powered by nuclear reactors, the "moon" is nothing more than an enormous balloon, emitting trillions of candlepower of gun-revealing light. Piloted by key members of the liberal community, the "moon" is strategically moved across the country, pointing out those who dare to make use of their God-given rights at night!

Yes, I know this probably sounds paranoid and preposterous, but consider this. Despite what the revisionist historians tell you, there is no mention of the "moon" anywhere in literature or historical documents -- anywhere -- before 1950. That is when it was initially launched. When President Josef Kennedy, at the State of the Union address, proclaimed "We choose to go to the moon", he may as well have said "We choose to go to the weather balloon." The subsequent faking of a "moon" landing on national TV was the first step in a long history of the erosion of our constitutional rights by leftists in this country. No longer can we hide from our government when the sun goes down.

Aha!

[Raul654]

First Iraq, then North Korea, and now the moon! The Lunans are conspiring against our interests abroad! Conspiracy, I say!

This just in from the Iraqi Information Ministry

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no moon. There never was a moon. We are winning the war. The moon is painted on the sky by evil Americans to confuse us. There is no moon.

Re:This just in from the Matrix

[SunPin]

I think you meant, "There is no spoon."

Re:This just in from the Matrix

[EpsCylonB]

I think you meant, "There is no spoon."

do sporks exist ?

Re:Aha!

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd hate to be the one that unleashes Zemus/Zeromus from the moon! He's evil I tell you... eeeeeeeeevvvvvvvvvvviiiiiiiiiiiillllllllllllle!

Liberate the water?

[Anonymous Coward]

new proposal to attack the lunar poles with "Bunker Buster" missiles to liberate a detectable amount of water.

We must free the water from its evil ruler Saddam Moonsein.

Re:Liberate the water?

[Per Wigren]

Is he the real Saddam [cjb.net]? ;-)

Re:Liberate the water?

[NanoGator]

"We must free the water from its evil ruler Saddam Moonsein."

Shut your black hole, you.

The outrage!

[Anonymous Coward]

They should give UN weapons inspectors more time!

In related news...

[DennisZeMenace]

The Moon has been added to the infamous "Axis of Evil" group...

bombing the moon?

[abhisarda]

what a luna(r)tic idea ;)

first..

[EugeneK]

.....the US has to make up some stuff about how the moon has WMD, supports terrorism, and insinuate that it was somehow involved in 9/11.

Re:first..

[EpsCylonB]

Luna is a rogue state, did they join the coalition against terrorism ?, do we need any more proof ?.

Re:first..

[capnjack41]

I think we got it wrong...we use the bunker busters when we want someone's oil, not water.

[KIDDING! JOKE.]

Re:first..

[Santos L. Halper]

Don't buy this crap that we are bombing it for water. We are bombing it for oil, pure and simple.

Yeah, but why?

[EdgeShadow]

I fail to see the benefits of exposing trace amounts of water from the moon at the cost of destroying a small portion of it. The fact that we've already detected it proves it's there.

oh no

[dsanfte]

Don't be a sentimental idiot. The moon is a big, sterile rock. Blowing up 1/10000000th of it won't have any negative effects whatsoever... meteors crash onto its surface regularly, you know.

Re:Yeah, but why?

[inertia187]

From the BBC article:

• What is the nature of the deposit?
  
• What is the source of the water?
  
• Are other ices besides water ice present?
  
• Is the hydrogen actually in the form of water ice, or is
• it hydrogen from the solar wind?
  

So, we want to know more. And this is one way to do it.

Re:Yeah, but why?

[Kevin Stevens]

destroying it? you are aware its a big rock right? and pretty much all a bomb will do is move a couple of rocks from point A to point B in hopes that somewhere among that debris is water. Ive seen similar sentiments in a few posts now, and I hope everyone realizes that the moon, while smaller than the earth, is still what most would consider really f****** big in non scientific terms. This bomb is going to have zero impact on the moon, and the non-business as usual will continue on the moon. I am sure an

Earth First!

[Wee]

We'll stripmine the moon later.

-B

Hey!

[deadsaijinx*]

Guess what I just found out! It ends up there is lots of water on earth, and it's not even protected by rocks. No need to blow the place up to get it! ^^

okay, anyway, the only purpose for looking for water is to find life on the moon. By using missiles to release the water, we blow up any life we may have found, just a thought....

Re:Hey!

[meridian-gh]

Life?

More like fuel. Hydrogen and Oxygen. Guess what the shuttle engines run off of?

If we discovered water in any signifigant quantity on the moon, it would (someday) make getting there and back much cheaper and easier. Instead of packing the gas with us, we can stop at the ol' lunar gas station. It is so hellaciously expensive to put things in orbit, every pound saved is a penny earned.

It could also make construction of spacecraft on the moon or in orbit a possibility. Again, the less we have to bring up with us, the better.

Regards,

Meri

Re:Hey!

[RocketRick]

Gauchito wrote:

This abundant, unavailable hydrogen thing make me laugh, kind of like "water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink".

OK, pet peeve time. If you're going to quote poetry, at least quote it correctly:

Water, water, everywhere,
And all the boards did shrink;
Water, water, everywhere,
Nor any drop to drink.

From "The Rime of the Ancient Mariner", by Samuel Taylor Coleridge

- Rick "Pedant" Dickinson

The moon has WMDs!

[KDan]

Really, my... fellow americans. *stares at camera* I strongly believe that the moon is currently harbouring all kinds... of weapons of mass destruction. They most definitely have nucular weapon facilities. They are a threat to our way of life, to our liberty... and to the liberty... of all the free people of the Earth *blank stare* And so it is with great sadness, but firmness of purpose, that we must carry on, with the help of God, and rid the solar system of weapons of mass destruction.

George

Good idea...

[sevensharpnine]

And in related news, NASA officials recently announced an exploratory campaign will be taking place in Syria next week.

Finally!

[Anonymous Coward]

Bombing the moon? Finally: some astronomy that the Bush camp can get behind.

But what do the Dixie Chicks think?

[jj_johny]

"I am so ashamed to be from the same state that Johnson space center is in." - Natalie Maines

Re:But what do the Dixie Chicks think?

[B3ryllium]

Teehee, she said Johnson

Who else here..

[stuckatwork]

...pictured Slim Pickens on a bomb in a space suit riding towards the moon yelling "whoo hoo", a la Dr. Strangelove?

Re:Who else here..

[Darth_brooks]

...pictured Slim Pickens on a bomb in a space suit riding towards the moon yelling "whoo hoo", a la Dr. Strangelove?

In space, no one can hear a hillbilly scream.

Look at the second picture...

[sczimme]

It's the one in the 'Shock testing' section.

I sure hope the safety is on... Either way, I don't think I would stand directly under that thing.

(Apologies to those of you who get there after the site has died and can't see the pictures. I'm just an insensitive clod.)

hmm

[abhisarda]

they will use bunker busting bombs.. the point is that these bombs are used against man-made structures.. and they are much easier to penetrate than solid ground.

The bomb might have to be a nuclear one. Another question is about the delivery capability. Moon does'nt have oxygen. Therefore this bomb will need to have its own oxygen system.

The place they bomb and the place where the spacecraft is located has to be some distance apart. The dust(?) created from this bomb will linger far longer than earth beca

Re:hmm

[angst_ridden_hipster]

Well, yeah, it strikes me as a silly idea. But you've got some facts wrong:

Most bombs work fine in the absence of external oxygen.

Bunker busters are designed to penetrate the rock above bunkers, as well as the bunkers themselves. (most "safety bunkers" are carved out of the bedrock).

Re:hmm

[nate1138]

Did you even read the article? There aren't going to be any explosives at all on these missions (if approved). They use the PENETRATION technology of "Bunker Busters" to bury sensors under the moon's surface, and those sensors look for water/life/whatever and send the data home.

And by the way, bombs don't generally need atmospheric oxygen, the oxidizer is part of the explosive compound.

Re:hmm

[Drakonian]

Did you even read the article?

You're new here aren't you? ;)

Re:hmm

[Nix0n]

Moon does'nt have oxygen. Therefore this bomb will need to have its own oxygen system.

Umm, the vast majority of conventional munitions have their own oxidizing agent, with very few exceptions( such as the fuel-air bomb ).

If a substance's oxidation rate is dependent on its contact with atmospheric oxygen, it would be far more likely to "burn" than "explode".

The dust(?) created from this bomb will linger far longer than earth because of moon's gravity.

Another problem with your reasoning. The specific reason that dust "lingers" on earth is buoyant forces BY THE AIR upon very small dust particles. the moon's gravity well is smaller than that of the Earth, but the fact that F=ma will prevail without impedance by an atmosphere will make the "dust" settle rather quickly.

Bastards !!!!

[forged]

So long as they won't fire their probes in my property [google.be] I'm fine with the idea. Altough it really does sound corny.

For more info on this...

[dr_dank]

We turn to Geraldo Rivera, who is sketching a map in the dirt as we speak.

And now for our next trick...

[mahdi13]

...we shall send a monkey to the surface of the Sun to see if it can survive the x-rays/gamma rays/solar winds/radiation/heat

And if we accidentally destroy the moon...

[Znonymous Coward]

the title waves should only last for a few hundred years.

How's that for shock and awe?

This is the ultimate job!

[mattsucks]

Remember when you were a kid, and wanted to be an astronaut? And remember also when you were a kid, how cool it was to smash things together just to see what would happen?

Re:This is the ultimate job!

[Drakonian]

Are you suggesting we smash astronauts into the moon??

Lunar Hotels

[Jason1729]

When do the bookies start taking bets on which chain will be the first to expand to the moon? Hilton Storms? Best Western - Sea of Tranqulity?

Jason
ProfQuotes [profquotes.com]

cheese

[DanThe1Man]

I think they are really just trying to find a better source for cheese.

Little know fact: The cheese mines on earth are dwindling

Re:cheese

[skaffen42]

Uhm, does this mean I have to change my bumper sticker to read "NO WAR FOR CHEESE"?

weight?

[GlassUser]

Aren't these bunker buster bombs a tad heavy?

British support forthcoming

[mao che minh]

In a scheduled press conference, British Prime Minister Tony Blair will announce that he fully supports the US action against the moon, much to the behest of the Labor Party.

Iraqi intelligence officials are reporting that the moon intends on defending itself against the crusaders to the end, and has already prepared the graves for thousands of imperialist satans.

I was going to say

[IWantMoreSpamPlease]

"So *that's* where Baghdad Bob is hiding", but with all the other comments, it's sorta moot.

Just what we need...

[Lord Bitman]

This is just what we need as our first contact with the moon people!

woha

[rabtech]

Is anyone else having flashbacks to the book/movie "The Time Machine"?

So who gets to live underground and who gets to be food?

Pre-emptive lunar strike

[RealErmine]

I can see the presidential press conference now:

"It is imperitive that we deal the Moonites a crippling blow in decisive fashion.
I can see them up there. They wave tubes of toothpaste at me.
They speak to me.
No! My thoughts are my own!"

In Other News...

[limekiller4]

(Reuters) In other news, NASA unveiled plans today to hit Geraldo Rivera over the noggin with a ball-peen hammer to see if any brains could be detected in the ensuing plume. Critics claim that the odds of success are too small to warrant the effort.

911

[chimpo13]

We just need to strike back at the Moon for what they did to the World Trade Center on 9/11.

That or attack those Moonenites for keying the Camaro on Aqua Team Hunger Force.

friendly fire

[Anonymous Coward]

lobbing ordnance at the moon is probably the only way the US won't be able to either kill its own people or its allies. although i have a sinking feeling that the rocket will burn up somewhere ofer England and waste some british troops.

I CAN SEE THE FUTURE

[greymond]

This is where we GO TO FAR and blow up our own moon and as it comes crashing down upon us I dive back into my time machine and go even farther into THE FUTURE

Sounds like what Chairface Chippendale tried

[FearUncertaintyDoubt]

I guess we'll be seeing BUS carved into the moon's surface. No one will ever forget the President who tattooed the moon.

Re:Sounds like what Chairface Chippendale tried

[Feztaa]

I guess we'll be seeing BUS carved into the moon's surface. No one will ever forget the President who tattooed the moon.

Later, there will be a moon reconstruction mission on which they use precision blasting to try and fill the holes, though they are only able to fix the 'B'.

From then on, the moon will always say 'US'.

Oh, and there will be a giant bite taken out of it, too. :)

Vetos Likely

[hndrcks]

Jupiter and Mars threaten to veto any resolution authorizing use of force by NASA to 'liberate' water.

In response to the administration's claim that Mars was a 'traitor', other planets and satellites stated "we will wait to see the if the next comment also comes from Uranus, and then make our decision."

Oh no.

[Renraku]

I saw this once in a movie. I think it blows the moon into big chunks which come down on the earth. Or was that a children's breakfast cereal commercial? Mmm. Marshmellow moon chunks.

Ravine Change

[msheppard]

We should probably promote this as a "Ravine Change."

M@

made me think of this one:

[bauernakke]

http://www.salon.com/comics/tomo/2003/01/13/tomo/s tory.jpg

Veto I say...

[NanoGator]

As a Frenchman, I cannot support this unilateral decision to liberate water from the moon. We must give the inspectors more time so we can better cover up our involvement with the moon. In the mean time, we (in France) are boycotting lawn darts in protest because we will not glamourize lobbing missiles at the moon.

However, should the Americans find water on the moon, we'll completely reverse our position.

Mr. Show

[underwhelm]

David: We have the technology; The time is now; science can wait no longer; the children are our future. America can, should, must and will blow up the moon.

Bob: Yeah. And we'll be doing it during a full moon so we make sure we get it all.

Do we really need more?

[techstar25]

Isn't earth like 3/4 water already? We have plenty. Why do we need to mess with the moon?

A show of hands..

[gblues]

How many people read the writeup and saw the lame Iraq jokes coming a mile away?

Yeah, I thought so.

Nathan

Good Idea. Lets hope Dahak doesn't get annoyed

[EvilBastard]

Cause he'd get really annoyed at the decendants of the Mutineers [baen.com] trying to poke him with a pin to see if there's anything good inside

Re:What a great idea.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, nothing so insightful as a "I saw this in a cheesy sci fi movie and it turned out bad so therefore I know better than all the PhD's who've dedicated their lives to this field of study" post on slashdot.

Re:What a great idea.

[B3ryllium]

Well, the plot there was that they were using nuclear weapons to create tunnels and caverns. At least, I think that's what it was.

Star Trek safely terraformed the moon ... but I wouldn't want to start mining it. I'd rather do that for asteroids. :)

Obligatory Aqua Teen Hunger Force reference...

[Znonymous Coward]

Why visn't the Earth z-terraforming?

Just in case any of the other 3 Aqua Teen Hunger Force fans are reading.

Re:What a great idea.

[Wyatt Earp]

Why not fuck with the Moon?

It's a frickin' lump of rock is hanging up there.

Short of breaking it up, what's the harm?

Re:What a great idea.

[unicron]

Here's your copy of "Gravity for Jackasses". Read that. When you're done, come back, and we'll continue the lesson.

Re:Much like UNDERWATER, a compressed blast is wor

[Wyatt Earp]

You mean like how all those underground explosions in mines, caves and nuclear tests split the Earth up?

Oh wait it didn't.

The Moon is made out of the same kind of rocks as the Earth, the main difference being that as far as we can tell there is no liquid core or mantle in the Moon.

Gigajoules of force have hit the moon and while it wasn't compressed because it was at the surface, the force of those blows is still many times greater than any compressed blast humans might set off.

This whole the Moon will crack or shatter garbage has come from either too many viewings of Armadeggon on TNT or the same mindset that thought Trinity would set the atmosphere on fire or that Crossroads would punch a hole in the bottom of the ocean and the water would drain out.

Re:Much like UNDERWATER, a compressed blast is wor

[JoeRobe]

The bunker buster does not burrow THAT far underground - we're talking something on the order of tens of meters, maximum. An asteroid, say 100m across, will bury itself FAR deeper into the moon than any bunker buster will, and will release several orders of magnitude more energy INTO the moon than any one of our nukes ever could.

Even if it did bury itself very deep, you need to remember that the moon ISN'T like a big rock. It's got more dynamics going for it than your standard stone. An explosion, just

Re:What a great idea.

[klocwerk]

no more tides, no more good surfing.
food for thought.
*wiggles eyebrows*

Re:What a great idea.

[SuperBanana]

Why not fuck with the Moon? Short of breaking it up, what's the harm?

Well, barely 100 years ago, half the planet thought the moon was made out of cheese. So, I think maybe we should study the thing which controls our tidal currents(and hence climate, marine life aka major oxygen source) a little bit better, before we go screwing with it.

Re:space treaties?

[japhar81]

IF anyone dares to complain, we'll just drop bunker-busters on them instead. Damned terrorists...

Re:space treaties?

[fgb]

Those treaties ban the use of nuclear bombs in space, ironically the only place that nuclear explosions can be put to constructive use.

Re:space treaties?

[kalidasa]

Actually, there are also treaties on "Peaceful Uses of Outer Space" (http://www.oosa.unvienna.org/SpaceLaw/gares/html / gares_14_1472.html) separate from the orbital nuclear ban. The nuclear ban itself is quite ambiguous:

"States shall not place nuclear weapons or other weapons of mass destruction in orbit or on celestial bodies or station them in outer space in any other manner;"

Note that WMD phrase again (this is from 1966).

There's another one specifically about the moon which I think has not been

Re:Bang! Zoom! To the Moon!

[King_TJ]

Well, one would hope that the good folks at NASA have a little more scientific background than you did as a child trying to whack ants with a glass bottle.

I suspect this is, as usual, a case of the news media not really understanding/grasping the whole story. They hear something about a "bunker buster missle" and the moon, and immediately say "NASA wants to blast the moon with missles!"

As another Slashdot reader already posted, the plan appeared to actually be using a few of these missles as an easy way

Re:Operation: Moon Freedom

[KDan]

Nah, I tried that and I got modded as -1 flamebait and -1 troll, for some odd reason. Mods must be on crack today.

Daniel

Re:What if moon goes out of orbit...

[Blaine Hilton]

Could you just hear the NASA people say, "darn knew we forgot something..."

Re:The Time Machine?

[RatBastard]

Too bad they screwed that all up. The moon is drifting away from the Earth and there is nothing we can ever do about it. Ever.

Re:It won't explode.. stupid mission.

[Wee]

Please say that you're kidding. You honestly don't know how explosives [howstuffworks.com] work, do you?

Or did you read and article and just happen to miss this part:

"The probes are based on bunker-buster penetrators, but instead of explosives, would carry sophisticated scientific instruments hardened against the shock of striking the lunar surface."

You might want to refrain from commenting on anyone else's stupidity or engineering skills.

-B

Re:Time Machine

[Valdrax]

Yeah, and then my stomach lurches to the left when thinking about the image of the moon drifting apart... as obviously the lunar construction project must've damaged the ancient Atlantean gravity engines that kept the ball of rock together in the first place.

Blech. Movie science.

Re:This smells fishy....sounds like a cover up to

[praksys]

Much more likely to be an attempt to destroy evidence of alien contact before the Chinese get there.