Follow Slashdot stories on Twitter

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×
Space Science

More on the Mars Ice Cap 272

bfwebster writes "In a striking example of how a preliminary (but wrong!) scientific conclusion can persist for decades, Space.com has a story about how the south polar ice cap on Mars is mostly water, not mostly carbon dioxide (dry ice), as has been stated since the late 1960s. The new finding is based on analysis of Mars Observer readings that show that the souther polar ice cap is too warm at certain seasons to be dry ice. This finding has negative implications both for those claiming that liquid flow structures on Mars were caused by C02 instead of H20, as well as those who were hoping to use all that CO2 for terraforming."
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

More on the Mars Ice Cap

Comments Filter:
  • by isotope23 ( 210590 ) on Friday February 14, 2003 @05:13PM (#5305793) Homepage Journal
    What?

    If we can't Terrorform Mars then....

    The Terarrists HAVE WON!

  • Spectrometer? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by HaeMaker ( 221642 ) on Friday February 14, 2003 @05:14PM (#5305803) Homepage
    Why are they using this flimsy temerature evidence that the ice is water and not C02? It seems to me that they could use a spectrometer to determine its exact chemical composition...
    • by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 14, 2003 @05:29PM (#5305904)
      Thats exactly the reason why you work as the IT guy in your uncle's company and not at NASA.
    • why not send (Score:3, Interesting)

      by SHEENmaster ( 581283 )
      a damn probe down there?

      Please forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't water(drinkable?) on Mars a good thing for those that want a colony? Hell, it could cool help operate a nuclear power plant and mixed with ethynol help colonist morale. Those opposed to this idea can mix methynol with the power planet's old cooling water(the stuff that's been in the inner loop for years.) Or is the camp that believes the caps are CO2(middle school science teachers) to the point of sabatauge!? Better call the probe a "welcoming guesture to aliens" and it'll get through.

      BTW Mr. Watson, I did get question #3 right on the "planets quiz." I lied about my dog chewing the DB25 connector off my serial printer, so we can call it even.
    • Re:Spectrometer? (Score:5, Informative)

      by torpor ( 458 ) <ibisumNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Friday February 14, 2003 @05:35PM (#5305940) Homepage Journal
      I dare say that they're not 'just' using this evidence, it's the only bit of evidence out of the datapool which makes for good press release.

      If they say 'our spectrometer says that it is water', people won't know how that works or even why they believe it. But explaining the temperature difference between CO2 and H2O to the general public is a lot easier, so that's what we hear ...

      I think MGO has a spectrometer or two aboard...
      • by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 14, 2003 @05:48PM (#5306019)
        So, to make it the easiest, why not just say some actor said that it is H2O, instead of bring temperature into it?

        Hi, I am not a scientist, but I play one on T.V....
      • Re:Spectrometer? (Score:3, Insightful)

        by mattdm ( 1931 )
        That's ridiculous. As a member of the general public, if they say: "we used some of our scientific instruments, and those say it's water", I'm going to go ahead and believe them, because I've got no reason not to. I don't even need to know if it's a spectrometer or some other sort of gizmo.
    • Re:Spectrometer? (Score:3, Interesting)

      by TMB ( 70166 )
      The top layer, i.e. what you would be getting a spectrum of, is carbon dioxide. The water is underneath.

      [TMB]
    • Re:Spectrometer? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by pdp11e ( 555723 ) on Friday February 14, 2003 @06:00PM (#5306079)
      What kind of spectrometer?

      Mass?
      Optical? (transmission, emission, raman, IR, UV...)
      Nuclear? (alpha, beta, gamma, neutron activation, ...)

      The only spectrometry possible from the orbit is a passive one. The optical spectrum of the solid chunk of (dry)ice does not contain any characteristic lines or bands. Good luck with determining the "exact chemical composition".

      Now if you had a probe LANDED on a pole than you could determine composition with almost arbitrary precision.

      Those guys were obviously trying to guess composition from the orbit
    • Re:Spectrometer? (Score:3, Informative)

      by Bastian ( 66383 )
      a) flimsy temperature evidence makes better news

      b) It's not all that flimsy. If it's too hot during some seasons for CO2 to stay frozen, the ice caps wouldn't stay frozen during those seasons if they were mostly CO2.
      • If it's too hot during some seasons for CO2 to stay frozen, the ice caps wouldn't stay frozen

        Given the low low atmospheric pressure on Mars and CO2's tendency to sublimate into gas, wouldn't the poles (presuming CO2 composition) simply evaporate into space?

    • Re:Spectrometer? (Score:5, Informative)

      by JetJaguar ( 1539 ) on Friday February 14, 2003 @07:21PM (#5306539)
      It's a little trickier than that. Ices don't really have any spectroscopic features until you get into the far infrared. So you need an infrared spectrometer on board the probe. This isn't so easy to do, as any good infrared spectrometer needs a replenishable supply of liquid helium (which boils off fairly readily in the inner solar system).

      It's far easier to take temperature measurement using other means, and those measurements are sufficient to show that it's too warm for CO2.

      I'm not positive of this, but I would guess that ground based infrared spectrometers (like what's on NASA's IRTF [hawaii.edu]) may not have the resolution nor the signal to noise capabilities to do the detection. No that I think of it, there are several plausible reasons why you can't do the detection from ground based telescopes, but I would need to check them out before sticking my neck out and posting them.

  • by Yoda2 ( 522522 ) on Friday February 14, 2003 @05:18PM (#5305834)
    When are these so called scientists & astronomers going to give up on this whole "planet called Mars" bit?
  • by Madsci ( 616781 ) on Friday February 14, 2003 @05:18PM (#5305835)
    Scientists discover that the ice cap is cotton candy, not water. The "beer-foam" scientists are devastated. Life continues exactly as before.
  • by vjmurphy ( 190266 ) on Friday February 14, 2003 @05:18PM (#5305836) Homepage
    "This finding has negative implications both for those claiming that liquid flow structures on Mars were caused by C02 instead of H20, as well as those who were hoping to use all that CO2 for terraforming." "

    On the other hand, it has positive implications for those wanting to make slurpees.
    • I found that pretty funny too - so the possible presence of huge amounts of water, stuff of life, is a *bad* thing? Plus by the time we get there we'll be all about hydrogen power - besides the obvious benefits of not having to drink your own urine, here's a ready source of hydrogen for power and oxygen to breathe. It's practically a frozen candy store.
  • All hail! (Score:2, Funny)

    by DonkeyJimmy ( 599788 )
    Terraforming Mars amounts to making "gods out of geeks," as one critic put it.

    Shotgun not Atlas.
  • Martian Vacation (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Dukeofshadows ( 607689 ) on Friday February 14, 2003 @05:19PM (#5305838) Journal
    Terraforming by CO2 looks like it is no longer immediately feasible. However, since most of the minerals are below the surface anyway, it should be possible to create domed structures using the terrain of mars currently in existence to build habitats. Greenhouses could easily be built on the surface to produce food or grown underground by artificial light. Extracting water from the caps could be done and piped into colonies elsewhere. We hoped it would be easy to drop algae or some other organism on mars, release the CO2, and let nature take its course to heat up the planet. Now we just have to work a little harder. I'd still like to vacation on mars before I die, regardless of whether a spacesuit would be necessary.
  • by grub ( 11606 ) <slashdot@grub.net> on Friday February 14, 2003 @05:20PM (#5305844) Homepage Journal

    Now future Mars astronauts can start out their camps right; they can build a brewery to use that water!
  • by Cpt_Kirks ( 37296 ) on Friday February 14, 2003 @05:20PM (#5305849)
    Water vapor holds in heat too. Just not as effectively as CO2.

    It's pretty damn good mixed with Bourbon, too.
    • But... (Score:3, Informative)

      by Goonie ( 8651 )
      Water vapour stays frozen out of the atmosphere until you reach, well, 0 Celsius (or 273 Kelvin for the physicists). Carbon dioxide sublimes at -78. It's going to require much more heating to release water vapour than carbon dioxide.

      However, IIRC much of the carbon dioxide on Mars is probably in the regolith rather than on the polar cap. It's just a lot harder to get to. It still might be possible to terraform Mars, but the job seems to be harder than first thought.

      • Well, you could heat things up a bit by dropping a comet on it. That would give you your carbon dioxide at the same time.

        Of course, you'd need to pick an "earth crosser" (well mars crosser), or the energetic considerations would be a bit steep.
        • Re:But... (Score:5, Funny)

          by Tackhead ( 54550 ) on Friday February 14, 2003 @06:08PM (#5306108)
          > Well, you could heat things up a bit by dropping a comet on it. That would give you your carbon dioxide at the same time.
          >
          > Of course, you'd need to pick an "earth crosser" (well mars crosser), or the energetic considerations would be a bit steep.

          Well, they've got it working for space probes. It's just a matter of scaling up. *rimshot*

    • I prefer my CO2 chipped, not cubed.
      but of course we had to buy the cheap fridge...

  • That's it (Score:5, Funny)

    by Spazntwich ( 208070 ) on Friday February 14, 2003 @05:21PM (#5305852)
    Maybe someone should explain to the scientists we have to worry about not having our probes CRASH ON LANDING before we can worry about actually terraforming a planet.
    • "Maybe someone should explain to the scientists we have to worry about not having our probes CRASH ON LANDING before we can worry about actually terraforming a planet."

      Maybe somebody should convince you that we have to prove that it'll be wortwhile to go to Mars before we pelt it with any more turk^H^H^H^Hprobes.

    • by Tumbleweed ( 3706 ) on Friday February 14, 2003 @06:01PM (#5306080)
      Clearly we should extend the "War on Terror" to the planet Mars - they keep shooting down our probes. Time to implement a "No Orbit" zone around the Communist Red Planet Menace!

      I mean, really, think about it - their moons (Phobos and Deimos) - those are clearly suspicious names. (translate them for more info)
  • by goombah99 ( 560566 ) on Friday February 14, 2003 @05:22PM (#5305862)
    I'm guessing the north pole is dry ice still. that means if the planet warms a bit we get club soda. I'll drink to that.
  • Water good... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Isn't water as important to future development on mars as CO2?
  • QUAID! (Score:5, Funny)

    by The Other White Boy ( 626206 ) <theotherwhiteboy@@@gmail...com> on Friday February 14, 2003 @05:25PM (#5305878)
    Start the reactorrr!!

    Sorry karma, I just couldn't resist.
  • by rice_web ( 604109 ) on Friday February 14, 2003 @05:30PM (#5305912)
    Okay, we know now that most of the ice cap is actually water. So....

    What does that mean? Will that mean a new space initiative aimed at a manned trip to Mars? More satellites hovering over the red planet?

    I guess what I'm asking: will we actually do anything productive with the news of water on Mars? If not, are we simply wasting hundreds of millions on Mars, when many other projects exist for NASA?
  • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Terraforming Mars (Score:4, Insightful)

    by vlad_petric ( 94134 ) on Friday February 14, 2003 @05:39PM (#5305970) Homepage
    I think that highest problem with Mars' terraforming is not of "biochemical" nature but astrophysical. Mars doesn't have a huge satelite like Earth (relatively speaking, of course - Moon is one sixth of Earth's mass) to regulate its rotation. As a consequence Mars doesn't really have stable seasons (well, Earth doesn't seem to have them either, but for a completely different reason :)) and I believe that this is a huge impediment in any kind of a terraforming effort
    • by smack_attack ( 171144 ) on Friday February 14, 2003 @05:42PM (#5305990) Homepage
      Seasons are caused by the relation of the planet to the sun, one hemisphere getting more light than the other when the axis moves. You wouldn't need a moon/satellite to have seasons.
      • You got me wrong - there are seasons on Mars. The problem is that Mars' rotation & tilt are erratic, and that's due to the absence of a regulator (large satelite). In Earth's terms, that would translate to 6 month of winter in one year and one month in another. BTW, when the tilt of Earth's rotation axis changed by a single degree the impact on weather was huge.
        • Re:Terraforming Mars (Score:4, Informative)

          by mcfiddish ( 35360 ) on Friday February 14, 2003 @06:45PM (#5306333)

          The problem is that Mars' rotation & tilt are erratic, and that's due to the absence of a regulator (large satelite).

          They're erratic over timescales of hundreds of thousands of years. If we ever do terraform Mars, large swings in the axial tilt will not be on the list of things to worry about.
      • Re:Terraforming Mars (Score:2, Interesting)

        by Jack9 ( 11421 )
        Not to go off on a tangent about seasons... but ok.

        Seasons are regular changes in climate. If you have no regulation of your axis tilt, you cannot have regular chagnes, only irregular. Also, there are very very few species on earth who can tolerate irregular seasons and accompanying temperatures. Humans and plants. Even if you could make a liquid lake on mars, you couldnt get anything to live in it for the random days it boils and freezes solid. Regulation of temperature is of immense importance to terraforming.
    • Why do seasons matter? There are places on earth with consistent climate all year that have thriving life. If fluctuating seasons were a requirement for life, then there'd be nobody living in L.A.
      • There are still seasons in the tropics, even if the lengths of the days don't change that much. Rainfall patterns are one thing that changes a lot between seasons. Beyond that, it's one big ol' earth, and any one part is affected by the seasons in another part.

        I live in the temperate zone and I've been trying to get a Michelia tree to flower indoors for several years. The plant is healthy, but it needs a particular combination of tropical rainfall patterns, temperature and light at just the right time of year to flower (and thus, reproduce). If it were in Hong Kong it'd be doing that every year. Seasons are important to just about everything on earth - the fact that humans are less directly affected by them just means we're less likely to immediately notice the subtle ways they affect everybody else on the planet (many of whom we would like to eat, like french fry beasts and chocolate truffle plants).
    • Re:Terraforming Mars (Score:4, Informative)

      by Dr. Hohmannstein ( 118282 ) on Friday February 14, 2003 @06:24PM (#5306200)
      Sorry to be nitpicky, but:

      Moon is only about 1/81 the mass of earth (it's surface gravitational force is one sixth of Earth's) and

      Mars has (rather stable) seasons (see e.g. Season on Mars [msss.com])

    • Re:Terraforming Mars (Score:5, Informative)

      by FroBugg ( 24957 ) on Friday February 14, 2003 @06:33PM (#5306250) Homepage
      What are you talking about? The Earth has seasons because our axis is tilted 23.5 degrees from the ecliptic, and thus at different times of the year different hemispheres get either more or less direct sunlight. The moon has absolutely jack to do with this.

      Mars has an inclination of about 25 degrees, just slightly more than us. Mars' seasons are actually more extreme than ours. It has a more eliptical orbit than Earth and makes its closest approach to the sun during Souther Summer, contributing greatly the global dust storms I'm sure you've heard about.

      No, the main barrier to terraforming is the fact there's no atmosphere to speak of. In the long run, the low gravity and lack of tectonic activity will also be problems. These are major contributors to its current lifeless state.
  • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • by handy_vandal ( 606174 ) on Friday February 14, 2003 @05:57PM (#5306068) Homepage Journal
    There's plenty of water, so ... when the Martians attack Earth [war-of-the-worlds.org], it's because they want our C02, right?
  • Anti-Terraforming? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 14, 2003 @06:02PM (#5306087)
    Is there anybody on /. who is actually OPPOSED to the idea of terraforming another planet? In the article it says some folks are going on about making our own place more livable, yadda yadda yadda, but I don't really see why anybody would be opposed to the idea of expanding humanity's reach. Please don't mod me flamebait, I'm really interested in knowing why anybody would think it's a bad thing...
    • It's not that it's a bad thing. The problem is, that we haven't yet fully come to understand Earth's weather systems. How can we possibly expect to create a feasible system on another planet? There is still a lot more that needs to be learned about complex systems.
      Also, it is silly to divert our attention to pipe dreams, when with a little tweaking we can make the planet we're living on a Gaia. Why would you throw away 65 billion years (or however many years life has been evolving on this old rock) to start from square one on another planet? It's just silly!
      Personally, I think the idea of terraforming Mars is just another form of escapism from reality. Let's deal with where we are right now, instead of looking to far off places when there are problems in front of us. Anyone else read Charles Dickenses "Bleak House"? Mrs. Jellyby is a prime example of what we should NOT do.
      • by zipwow ( 1695 )
        In response to some of your questions:

        Why would you throw away 65 billion years (or however many years life has been evolving on this old rock) to start from square one on another planet?


        Because terraforming Mars would risk only the population of Mars (currently zero). Terraforming Earth would risk the population of Earth. The consequences of the latter are rather larger than the former.


        Let's deal with where we are right now, instead of looking to far off places when there are problems in front of us.


        Why can't we do both? There's no reason to trash this planet, but having another rock to go to if something goes horribly wrong seems like a wise thing to do.

        $.02

        -Zipwow
      • The place is already freakin dead. It's not like we could do a whole lot more damage.

        "Let's deal with where we are right now"

        How about we use Mars to test theories we can then apply to Earth if they work?

        We only get one shot with Earth. The chances are pretty endless with Mars. If solutions create problems we can then find solutions to those problems without killing millions of people and baby seals in the process.

        Basically there's just a lot less to worry about if something goes wrong one mars.

        "Whoops! Oh well, the place sucked anyway."

        Ben
  • by the_2nd_coming ( 444906 ) on Friday February 14, 2003 @06:03PM (#5306091) Homepage
    just put about 1500 coal buring power plants on the surface and in 50 years it will be a tropical island.
    • by Anonymous Coward
      Yes, because coal is plentiful on Mars!
      • Yeah, and when coal burns it does not need any oxygen ...... because we will create oxygen by melting all that water and creating a green house effect with all that water vapour that will allow algae and plants to create all that oxygen that is not needed for burning coal.
  • Ok, instead of CO2 atmosphere, and CO2 poles, we have CO2 atmosphere and H2O poles. Plants, CO2 in the atmosphere, water, and sunlight. What good would CO2 in the poles do besides an easy source of greenhouse gases to warm up the planet. Lets just ship all the yuppie assholes and their SUVs over there, that'll heat the planet up real quick. Better yet, if we want to get people to Mars, just tell GWB theres either; a)oil there, or b)Saddams secret weapons cache.
  • by Saeger ( 456549 ) <farrellj@nOSPam.gmail.com> on Friday February 14, 2003 @06:21PM (#5306174) Homepage
    I find it amusing to hear that short-sighted planetary chauvinists are still seriously talking about terraforming planets for biological-human colonization in the "far future."

    The fact of the matter is that terraforming will take centuries longer than it will take humans to exponentially evolve the technology to not even need a biologically-hospitipal waste-of-matter gravity-well to live on. We'll almost certainly be tearing planets apart [aeiveos.com] for their raw material instead of building human zoos on their surface.

    Yeah... I know, talking about the accelerating rate of technological change and about "whacko" trans/posthumanism isn't as sexy as talk'n about terraforming or about meat-popsicles flying around in cool spaceships... so sue me.

    --

  • Ionosphere (Score:3, Interesting)

    by harks ( 534599 ) on Friday February 14, 2003 @06:21PM (#5306180)
    Does Mars have an ionosphere protecting it from solar radiation? I was taught in school that that is one of the reasons Earth can sustain life, because most of the radiation from the sun is stopped from hitting the surface by the magnetic field of the Earth. If Mars does not have a sufficient ionosphere, is there any hope? can buildings keep their occupants safe from the radiation?
    • by Fizzl ( 209397 )
      You mean ozone layer?

      Yeah, earth used to have one of these. ;)
    • Re:Ionosphere (Score:4, Informative)

      by mcfiddish ( 35360 ) on Friday February 14, 2003 @07:13PM (#5306493)
      Mars does have an ionosphere, You have an ionosphere when solar radiation strips away electrons from atmospheric gases.

      Mars doesn't have a strong magnetic field though. The magnetic field keeps charged particles away from the planet, which otherwise would erode the atmosphere (this is why Mars has a thin atmosphere).

      Hard solar radiation does make it to the martian surface, and in the absence of ozone or another long-UV absorber, would be a problem if we ever did terraform Mars. Buy stock in ACME umbrellas now.
  • Dig? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by ptaff ( 165113 )
    Wouldn't it be feasible to simply dig onto the crust of Mars and provoking volcanoes? Volcanoes would both heat the surface of the planet and bring gases into the atmosphere. Yeah, we would have to dig for years, but I guess not milleniums :) -- The first dotcom failure: command.com
    • Re:Dig? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by nagora ( 177841 )
      Wouldn't it be feasible to simply dig onto the crust of Mars and provoking volcanoes?

      It is not yet clear whether the interior of Mars has ANY "liquid" magma left or not. It is much smaller than Earth and has probably lost its internal heat already.

      TWW

  • by pla ( 258480 ) on Friday February 14, 2003 @06:27PM (#5306215) Journal
    Last I heard, water causes a much stronger greenhouse effect than CO2.

    So the fact that the ice caps consist of water rather than solid CO2 means nothing but GOOD!

    Not only do we have something even more useful for trapping heat (if we could melt it), but we have something that Earth-based life requires quite a lot of to survive.

    Strange, some of the conclusions people come to when the find that a pet project needs a slight tweak.

    IMO, I see it as a much bigger problem that Mars lacks a strong, relatively-stable magnetic field. If we hope one day to live there, we don't *need* to bother making its atmosphere human-friendly, because we'd need to live a few hundred feet underground anyway to survive the constant bombardment of the surface by "hard" radiation.

    Now, for a personal oddball idea, one of the science projects from the ex-Columbia inspired me. Insects need only a small fraction of the oxygen of mammals, far less water, and can survive even a hard vaccuum and fairly high levels of background radiation. The experiment with "ants in space", as covered on Slashdot a couple weeks ago, led me to wonder, why don't we just ship a few dozen different insect colonies to Mars and let *them* terraform it? Ants apparently do much better in lower gravity, they "farm" aphids and fungus (of which some strains could conceivably survive on the chemical-energy-bearing soil on mars, thus providing food for the ants), they clean their own microenvironment... Perfect for what we need. Let the little guys build up Mars' biosphere for a few decades, then other introduced organisms would have a much better chance for survival.
    • by ArcSecond ( 534786 ) on Friday February 14, 2003 @06:41PM (#5306312)
      Three words: Red Mars Trilogy. K.S.R. dealt with all the terraforming issues in detail... I was actually surprised at how deep he went into eco tech.

      In any case, it would take more than ants, and a helluva lot longer than a few decades to change the environment on Mars into one we could use.

      Not sure about the issue of radiation... there may be a way to have a thick atmosphere that shields the surface enough. I don't think normal radiation within the solar system is really that bad, it's the solar storms that getchya.

      One other note: just because the polar caps aren't made of dry ice, doesn't mean there isn't a significant amount of CO2 and carbon locked into the regolith, and in the water itself. But yeah, there are much better gases for terraforming if you want to "Greenhouse" a bit. CFCs for example.
    • by Forgotten ( 225254 ) on Friday February 14, 2003 @07:44PM (#5306621)
      Good points, but one of the benefits of CO2 is that plants want it. Insects could turn O2 into CO2, but insects won't last long without plants...and that's not even getting into what it takes to grow chickens and eggs. ;) You see the problem. Getting Life to survive is really no issue, because that's all life does. The tricky bit is getting reasonable precursors and conditions for life in place. If you can do that, your subsequent decisions won't even matter much, because you can be sure the thing will take off without you and before you know it it's calling you up on the spacephone talking about [mp]aternity.

      To transplant an Earth-type ecology, you're going to need remarkably Earthlike conditions, and this is probably unfeasible. What people have looked at is importing something like (what they envision as) primordial Earthlike conditions and letting it stew for a few hundred (or thousand) years. The interesting thing to me is that this is still called "terraforming", when what comes out of it really won't really be Terran - it'll be novel. The starting factors would likely be genetically engineered, and if there's success it'll be through rapid adaptation. The life you get is pure Martian. Just as Ray Bradbury observed. :)
  • by Stuntmonkey ( 557875 ) on Friday February 14, 2003 @07:03PM (#5306448)

    Mars also contains CO2 in its soil. This is in two forms: (1) CO2 directly adsorbed onto the (porous) rocks and dirt, and (2) CO2 in ice form mixed into the soil, possibly mixed with water ice as well.

    Read here [spacedaily.com] to learn more.

    The extent of these soil deposits is almost completely unknown and difficult to estimate. Nevertheless, if the surface temperature were raised then some portion of this trapped CO2 would outgas. (This would be akin to obtaining liquid/vapor water by heating a section of Siberian permafrost.) Because CO2 is such a good greenhouse gas, there might therefore exist a temperature threshold beyond which the outgassing of CO2 and subsequent greenhouse heating would push the planet into a self-sustaining "hot" mode.

    Or it may be the case that too much of the CO2 on Mars has either been lost to space, or is chemically locked up in carbonate rocks. This is a numerical question that won't get answered until we have the ability to bore into the surface and measure the free CO2 content.

    I'm personally doubtful of these "heat it up and it will automatically fix itself" scenarios. If Mars did sustain a liquid water ocean at some point (an amazingly we still don't know the answer to that for sure), then something dramatic must have happened to make it shift into the cold, dry climate that exists today. My likeliest candidate would be the cooling and freezing of the planet's core, and the subsequent cessation of volcanic activity. Without volcanos, CO2 gets locked up in carbonate rocks and it never cycles back into gaseous CO2. The same thing could happen to the Earth someday, but fortunately the Sun will have long since gone supergiant and vaporized us in our tracks.

  • by g4dget ( 579145 ) on Friday February 14, 2003 @07:18PM (#5306523)
    Terraforming Mars amounts to making "gods out of geeks," as one critic put it.

    "Hmmm. Let's see. I'll make this big universe, and then I'll put billions of huge fusion reactors into it. Oh, let's make some red ones, some green ones, and some blue ones. And, wow, look at those galaxies collide. I wonder what would happen if I squeeze some of those things down into black holes. Wow, look at that explosion--that was fun. Let's see: some critters would be fun, too. What about putting in some little guys that kind of look like I do and that pray and sacrifice to me?"

    I dunno, God sounds pretty geeky to me. And what's wrong with that anyway?

    • I'll put billions of huge fusion reactors into it

      Just to be clear: God got a little carried away on this one; when all was said and done, there ended up being about 12 orders of magnitude more than that.

  • by heroine ( 1220 ) on Friday February 14, 2003 @07:25PM (#5306558) Homepage
    The object of the game should be this:

    Send autonomous construction robots to Mars.

    Use the native materials to build enourmous castles.

    Pressurize the castles for humans.

    Terraforming would take too long to be any use.

  • While I do think it's a neat idea and agree and disagree with the terraforming suggestions that have been posed in the forums here .... as of now, it's not possible to be done. We can NOT terraform any planet in our solar system, NOT even our own.

    Hopefully, at one point, we will be able to do this, but by the time we are capable of doing such, I'm almost CERTAIN we'll have a better technology than using the icecaps anyway!

    One suggestion has been to make absolutely certain the planet contains no life (which is doubtful it does) and then nuke the entire planet in strategic places causing a nuclear winter and possibly even creating a magnetic atmosphere that will hold in more gases and atmospheric components. To spread algae in a blanket over the planet and other life to evolve and create "semi-artificial" biospheres is probably a good technique.

    BUT, again, while it's nice to speculate about terraforming, remember we are at LEAST 15 years away from a manned mission and probably over a century away from a colony, then two centuries from having the ability to take on something like this, and by then, we will most likely be able to snap our fingers and terraform the planet.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 14, 2003 @07:27PM (#5306562)
    I have a serious question.

    The people in this forum who deny the 'Greenhouse Effect' (and whenever there's an article about the environment, there are plenty saying things like "We don't have enough data..." or "It's a bit arrogant to think that man can have an effect on the environment..." or "It's bad science...") how come they don't they come out and blast the science of terraforming a planet like Mars?
    • The people in this forum who deny the 'Greenhouse Effect' (and whenever there's an article about the environment, there are plenty saying things like "We don't have enough data..." or "It's a bit arrogant to think that man can have an effect on the environment..." or "It's bad science...") how come they don't they come out and blast the science of terraforming a planet like Mars?


      I don't believe in 'Mars'.

      We don't have enough data. . .

      It's a bit arrogant to think that man can say with any authority that other planets exist.

      It's bad science.

      I mean, really. Nobody can prove it to me! I have a perfectly logical explanation for all of the so-called, 'Data'.

      --Seriously, I keep thinking I ought to make a website where I 'debunk' standard beliefs just to demonstrate how retarded skeptics actually are. "Oh, you had another so-called, 'Dream' did you. . ? And what proof can you offer us?"


      -Fantastic Lad --La La La, I can't hear you!

    • This is beginning to be a bit off topic, so I won't spend too much time here.

      I can't speak for all of the anti-Greenhouse Effect folks, but the biggest problem that I have with it is that the whole debate is too politically charged, with scientists doing research with pre-conceived results, questionable sponsors, and a focusing too narrowly one just one or two root causes to the problem. Don't blast me here, because I've spent too much time with real researchers fighting for grants, tenure, publication, conference presentations, and all of the other acedemic BS that almost makes a mockery of science. Despite all of that, there are people who are genuine in their desire to do scientific research, but a real question has to be asked if they are getting lost in the background noise of simple charlitains who are trying to find a way to get a quick buck...by faking science or simply being lazy because they don't care.

      I also say that Mars is a good example of what is going to be required to prove the "Greenhouse Effect" on a planetary scale, because it will prove on a planetary scale what kinds of activity is going to be required in order to actually affect the environment. If it is going to be so difficult, then it will be hard on the Earth. The opposite is also going to be true.

      In other words, terraforming Mars would be the real final proof that massive industrial activity really has an effect on the whole planet. And if we succeed at warming up Mars by 10-20 degrees, it will be a useful alternative to Earth if we really are screwing it up permanently.
  • by gnovos ( 447128 ) <gnovos@nospAm.chipped.net> on Friday February 14, 2003 @07:46PM (#5306626) Homepage Journal
    I don't know how others feel about this, but I for one am GLAD they finally put a cap on Martian Ice... Too much of it would cause all sorts of iceo-economic fluctuations that we just can't deal with right now.
  • Now water.

    And the hint of monoliths all along. . .

    They are quietly, steadily warming the public so that all the fragile little human brains won't "Pop" when the aliens tap you on the shoulder one day and say,

    "Stick 'em up!"


    -Fantastic Lad --"Pathetic Hoo-Mahn!"

  • Why Mars - not much atmosphere or solar radiation?

    Just for the challenge?

    I think a more practical alternative to Mars is Venus. Plenty of solar radiation, atmosphere (lots) and closer to Earth than Mars.

    Ok - so the atmosphere is hot, high pressured and toxic. Isn't that what bio-tech should be for? Breed some bugs (make it sound easy don't I?) to do the dirty work (turn the noxious stuff into solids so it drops from the atmosphere), land and conquer.

    Major problem is that Venus may well be geologically active in a major way (cooling core could be causing slabs of crust to drop - 50km*50km type size dropping ~1km down - this is a possible explanation for some of the possible recent resurfacing events on the Venusian crust).

    Venus is easier once you tame the atmosphere, you can make an atmosphere on Mars but it will still bleed off as the rock is too small. So if you take 1000 years to make Mars work, in ten times that long you will have to have Plan B for the atmosphere working.
  • We've certainly kicked the shit out of this place.
  • Sorry, but it's not terraforming if you ain't forming on Terra. "Marsforming" maybe?

    Just like there's only one "Solar System". OURS. Why? Because the sun's freakin' name is SOL.

  • Dubya (Score:3, Funny)

    by t0ny ( 590331 ) on Friday February 14, 2003 @10:24PM (#5307140)
    as well as those who were hoping to use all that CO2 for terraforming."

    I guess we'll just have to make our green-house effect the old fashioned way. Can we send Texas to Mars?

  • by spammeister ( 586331 ) <fantasmoofrccNO@SPAMhotmail.com> on Friday February 14, 2003 @10:52PM (#5307216)
    We don't need CO2 as much as we need Nitrogen in the atmoshpere and in the ground. Well anywho we need Oxygen, Nitrogen, and Carbon Di-Oxide all together (as well as inert gasses but they're miniscule). In order to get a viable ecosystem of any kind of proportions we need all 3.
  • by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Saturday February 15, 2003 @01:10AM (#5307574)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • by Odin's Raven ( 145278 ) on Saturday February 15, 2003 @09:14AM (#5308376)
    The new finding is based on analysis of Mars Observer readings [...]

    Forgive the nitpick, but the Mars Observer wasn't involved in this. It was a combination of data from Mars Odyssey and Mars Global Surveyor. Observer isn't even mentioned in the article...gotta proof-read those submissions, folks. :-)

    Contact was lost [nasa.gov] with Observer shortly before it was to enter orbit around Mars.

    See JPL/NASA for more information on the 2001 Mars Odyssey [nasa.gov] and Mars Global Surveyor [nasa.gov]

Solutions are obvious if one only has the optical power to observe them over the horizon. -- K.A. Arsdall

Working...