Space Shuttle Columbia Breaks Up Over Texas 2398
An anonymous reader writes "NASA lost communication with space shuttle Columbia shortly before its scheduled landing on Saturday. It was unclear whether there were any other problems." Various news programs have been showing debris falling from the sky, and NASA has declared an emergency.Update: 02/01 15:29 GMT by H : Confirmation has come - the shuttle has broken up over Texas while coming in for landing Florida.
God rest their souls (Score:4, Insightful)
Our prayers are with (Score:0, Insightful)
Re:Looks like we Need Another Seven Astronauts (Score:1, Insightful)
i can't believe slashdot sometimes
This is terrible (Score:5, Insightful)
But once we are done with the grief and morning for these great people, the space program will be severely hampered from further progress. We need this program to continue, and I'm afraid we've just killed it for twenty years.
Very sad all around.
Please (Score:1, Insightful)
Don't Panic (Score:4, Insightful)
Sorry to lose the crew and shuttle. But I hope we don't suddenly halt the manned space program like we did after Challenger.
Space exploration is a dangerous undertaking, and every astronaut is taking a huge risk every time they go up. We have to expect casualties, we've been very lucky throughout the history of the US space program. Not to minimize the loss of the crew, they're heroes, but we can't stop the program because of this. Surely investigation, but not a halt.
Say a prayer for the crew, if you believe in such stuff.
Re:Very sad... (Score:5, Insightful)
This is terrible news; it feels like the Challenger all over. Just as senseless, just as disturbing. These people risked their lives to better mankind, and it's terrible that this could happen to such noble people.
I keep switching stations, and I'm tired of hearing about "6 Americans and 1 Israeli". 7 people were in that shuttle. It's frustrating that the media can't let go of war sensationalism even now, at a time like this.
Sigh (Score:2, Insightful)
Anyways, there's already speculation that a piece of insulating foam from the fuel tank fell off on liftoff and hit the left wing and damaged the heat shield. NASA officially declared that the shuttle is lost.
It made my house shake (Score:2, Insightful)
Usurper_ii
Re:Please (Score:5, Insightful)
Irresponsible Fear Mongering! (Score:5, Insightful)
Wait. Watch. Pay attention. We don't need more noise in the signal.
and the apollo program... (Score:2, Insightful)
http://www.nasm.edu/apollo/AS01/a01sum.htm [nasm.edu]
January isn't a good month for NASA
Re:Holy fuck (Score:4, Insightful)
Space exploration is hard and it is dangerous, and there's always the chance of an accident. All the people on board new this, all their families and colleagues on the ground knew this, but *they did it anyway*.
I just hope the powers that be don't use their deaths as an excuse to write off what's left of the space programme.
Re:Please (Score:-1, Insightful)
Say a small prayer.
It was a scientific mission. Worshipping a deity as a solution? Puhlease.
Too high and too fast for missiles... (Score:5, Insightful)
at an altitude of 200,000 feet (61km) and velocity of 12,000 miles per hour (19,000 km/h)
That makes terrorism highly unlikely. That's too high and too fast for much of anything to hit it. It's more like a ballistic missile than an airplane at that point, and we all know how well the Star Wars project is faring [sky.com].
Broken tile, not terrorism...? (Score:5, Insightful)
But the damage has been done: the astronauts are dead, and the U.S. space program -- which never recovered from Challenger's loss -- may soon be dead as well.
-j.
Re:oh no! (Score:2, Insightful)
This will probably be the last flight of the first generation of shuttles, the more recent generation will continue service until there's a replacement.
However, this will (and should) raise some concerns as to the state of the shuttles. I wish we could pour money into our space programs instead of fscking around in other people's deserts...
This really sucks. And now every TV channel on the planet will be covering shots of burning debris in the atmosphere all day. I grieve for the families of the men and women aboard Columbia.
Raise one to them tonight, lads.
Where were you when you heard the news? (Score:2, Insightful)
I hear that
- Columbia is the oldest shuttle
- The crew compartment can re-enter by itself allowing the crew to jump out. I wonder if anyone has tested this!
fuckfuckfuck Not again! (Score:4, Insightful)
They are/were brave people who have created and flown in the Shuttle, but it is time to replace and retire the bird. Please presure your elected representatives to fund a new spacecraft so that we can have a safer vehicle to take us into space.
ttyl
Farrell
Re:God rest their souls (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Plutonium on board? (Score:5, Insightful)
Would you want to put something very radioactive in a very confined space with 7 people?
Would you want to launch a strong radioactive source on top of a chemical rocket which always has a (slight) possiblitly of crashing?
Somehow I doubt it. People need to calm down. What happened is bad enough without trying to frighten yourself, and others, with wild speculation.
Feynman and Tears (Score:2, Insightful)
Just a good book all around. Wish we still had Feynman around to see what happened this time.
This is sad. Very sad. But not for the astronauts.
I'll go out on a limb here and say that the astronauts themselves would trade their lives in a second to be in space, and to contribute whatever it was that they did on this mission. I know I would.
So I won't waste a tear mourning them. I'll save the tears for their families and friends. I have no business mourning sad. Only remembering them.
~D
Yes (Score:1, Insightful)
Now act shocked
Come on, mod me down as a troll
Re:Now we have a stranded ISS crew... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Not funny in any way (Score:3, Insightful)
Just because YOU don't want to make jokes, you should not stop others from doing so.
The world is cruel enough, it is better to laugh at hardships than to cry because of them.
What makes me really sad, is that now ALL the US money they spent on the space shuttle will go out to the US military probably.
This is terrible... (Score:5, Insightful)
You also may not remember the emptiness when it became clear that NASA with public and short-sighted government pressure was shying away from manned space flight, and there was so much fear that it may never recover. This was a tragedy of epic proportions -- the possibility that we in the US (and as one of the major players in manned space flight) might shy away from exploration and adventure because it was dangerous.
Things truely never recovered. The idiocy that is the Interational Space Station is a direct descendant of those events 17 years ago (almost to the day). The loss of our looking outward at greater feats, better manned spacecraft and the like are all descendant from that instant.
Now we stand at the cusp of it happening again. This depresses me. People today just don't understand that taking risks is important to advancement, and death is part of taking risks... something explorers have understood for centuries, and a lot of people have seemed to have forgotten today.
While part of me thinks NASA getting out of the manned space business, and dumping this massive waste of energy going into the ISS would be a good thing, because it may open up that exploration and adventure to those goverments or business who still have that sense of longing. I'm scared, though, that no one else will step up and take the reigns.
I hope we as a nation can recognize this for what it was -- an unfortunate event, but an outcome that can be expected when pushing the boundaries. We should feel pride in the people who lost their lives here, and rise up, and continue to do what they gave their lives for. I hope we as Americans don't shrink away even more in fear.
As potentially unpatriotic as it is to say, it makes me glad to know that the hope, energy and imagination of the billion people in China are there to step up, if we turn our backs on this important step in Humanity's future. It matters far more to me that we do this as a species then we do it as a nation. I hate the thought of what losing this would be a sign of for us as a country, though.
Re:This is terrible (Score:4, Insightful)
If the money spent on the ISS and the shuttle was diverted to projects like the Pathfinder, we'd have robots sampling Europa's oceans within the decade. Why risk human lives and billions of dollars on lower orbit?
High Flight (Score:5, Insightful)
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun-split clouds...and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of...wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there,
I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air.
Up, up the long, delirious, burning blue
I've topped the windswept heights with easy grace
Where never lark, or even eagle flew.
And, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod
The high untrespassed sanctity of space
Put out my hand, and touched the face of God.
'High Flight' by John Gillespie Magee, Jr.
I wept in 1986 as a child, now I do it again as a man. Goodbye and Godspeed...
- Necron69
Re:figures (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The shuttle was the oldest (Score:5, Insightful)
Columbia was built in 1978, first flown in 1981. thats 3 years. Now, scroll the time back to the beginning of the design process. Even if Bush handed NASA an unlimited budget the day he made it into office, we wouldn't have a new shuttle to use today.
Now, terrorism? Yeah, the terrorists have a missle that can hit a Mach20+ target. *sarcasm*
Seven explorers died today. Get off your political high horses, and think about that. Accidents do happen.
My thoughts are with the families of the crews.
Just a note to remember the servicemen as well. (Score:2, Insightful)
Life == Life.
Re:Best wishes and a cheap shot. (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't get me wrong, contrary to the perception I have put across, I like Bush, and in particular, I have great intrinsic respect for Powell and Bush's other aids. But the greatest crimes that could come of this are demeriting the space program, or using this as a jaunt for warmongering.
To the media, terrorism sells, but it taints the memory of what these people died doing. I fear there is great opportunity to spoil the spirit of their purpose in life by using their death as ammunition for unrelated, even ruefully contradictory, causes.
Not to assume their death; miracles happen. But hopefully their lives will be worth celebrating in what they have brought to humanity, and not what use they have as a political tool in death. But that is a terribly obnoxious thing to think and say; I am sure that Bush will honour their memory with reinvigorated interest in the exploration these people dedicated their lives to.
End of Nuclear power in space.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Please (Score:5, Insightful)
Why is it always a small prayer? What is the proper ratio of prayer time to disaster magnitude?
If prayer works, and only a small prayer is required, then why didn't you pray before this happened, you insensitive clod?
What exactly will you pray for? Is the ship supposed to reintegrate now?
Do me a favor and say a long prayer. Quietly. That should keep you busy for a while. The rest of us have work to do.
end of the Space Program (Score:2, Insightful)
Thousands die from tobacco-related causes...
Thousands die essentially from poor eating habits...
We have a poor sense of risks in our society.
This Is To Be Expected (Score:3, Insightful)
I find it interesting that many people here are wringing hands and bemoaning the space program. I would simply say that this is to expected. Accidents happen. Life happens. NASA is engaged in some of the most dangerous endeavours humans have ever undertaken. The reality is vehicles will be lost, people will die. It is the nature of things.
All of us undertake serious risk in pushing forward our human lot every day. Just getting in a car and going to work places us in seroius danger of our lives. You could die tomorrow. NASA is launching people into space on the backs of rockets and plunging them back into the atmosphere at incredible speeds. All to improve the lot of our species, to push the envelope, to reach for greater achievements.
Does this mean we should stop the space program? No. We should honor the lives of those lost and continue in the path they lead.
Mark
Re:Very sad... (Score:2, Insightful)
Yea, why would anyone want to kill an Israeli? Completely unprecedented. They are never kidnapped from Olympic games or blown up while worshipping on their holiest days.
Look, I'm not saying it is terrorism. I highly doubt it. Blowing up an American Space Shuttle with the first Israeli astronaut would be a Extreme-Muslim Terrorist's dream.
Brian Ellenberger
Re:Several Comments (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Please (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Irresponsible Fear Mongering! (Score:5, Insightful)
The fact that there was an Israeli onboard does mean that terrorism is a significantly more likely cause than it would be if there wasn't. The news people would be incompetent if they didn't acknowledge this fact.
Re:I heard it (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh, now I get it! We're supposed to be discriminating against Muslims, not just middle-eastern people! Do you even stop to consider the fact that not every Muslim is a terrorist? It's like saying that every Catholic has 47 kids and will kill a Protestant on sight (a few of them do it in Northern Ireland, that must make it true). Same for Protestants, right? Or what about the undeniable fact that every Hindu either works in a convenience store or lives on the top of a mountain? Les't not even mention the Jews. We all know what THEY're like.
Sir, you are a moron. The odds that terrorism is a factor in this tragedy are sitting at about 0.00000001% right now. They claim that some insulation fell from the shuttle when they launched. Well if my brief experience with thermodynamics is any lesson, it's that things (like space shuttles) get really hot when they have a lot of friction trying to stop their rapid movement (like when they're landing). If something did fall, then I'd be highly suspect that there was some sort of external problem with the shuttle which overheated and caused an explosion. Or maybe not. It's still a lot more likely than your "terrorism".
Re:Please (Score:2, Insightful)
If God exists, all evidence shows that she is interested in us only as an amusement.
Re:Our prayers are with (Score:1, Insightful)
linking Columbia and Sadam ? (Score:2, Insightful)
"Your're the same group that is defending Sadam".
It reminds me of Bush saying: "You're with us or against us." There is no word to say how stupid, inconscious it is. In my first year of college, I learned in philosophy that saying such things is ridiculous. Some people would certainly needs more education.
I even heard that some US medias began to make speculations about terrorism ! It is unbeleivable. All I have to say is: Americans, watch out, medias want you to get affraid of everything !
Re:Broken tile, not terrorism...? (Score:2, Insightful)
it seems that the world beat me to the punch. people were blaming it on terrorists before they even knew what happened to the shuttle.
Re:Very sad... (Score:5, Insightful)
sorrow. remorse. anger at the u.s. for not building more modern designs and retiring that overdesigned piece of aerospace contractage.
NASA will get all the blame, but those astronauts today died of terminal cheapness on the U.S.'s part. The Shuttle is a late-60's design, bastardized by Air Force demands into a flying boxcar. the tiles were a good idea 32 years ago, but we should have built a new shuttle from newer alloys, based on what we learned from what is essentially a prototype space vehicle.
but all this for later. i fear the euopean and U.S. manned space program will be killed from this.
rest in peace, people.
Re:Several Comments (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Reality Check (Score:1, Insightful)
Get over yourself.
Or do whatever it is that you do (Score:2, Insightful)
A few ideas to consider before slamming me with your "Overrated" mods:
Prayer is not always to God.
People believe in many different gods. Or none. That's what makes us interesting.
Sometimes people just pray.
There is *nothing* wrong with praying, despite what "Anton LeVey" said.
Prayer is often a precursur to real action - it makes you consider things carefully.
You may be wrong about a great many things.
I am not religious and I rarely ever pray, but I did today for these lost scientists. If you can't deal with that, go fuck yourself.
I am rarely surprised by the shallowness and insensitivity of people.
I sure was today.
Ok, now feel free to mod this comment down and out of sight.
Re:Please (Score:5, Insightful)
I hope,
That five years from now, the wife of one of the astornauts will one day look up and see the bright stars, and smile.
That ten years from now, one of the children of the astronauts will pick up one of the dusty flight-manuals out of a dusty box, and read one.
That fifteen years from now, one of the husbands will look across the breakfast table at his daughter be proud, knowing that his daughter is entering flight school - just like her mom.
That 20 years from now, there will be a small memoral, to the fallen. Placed on the soil of Mars.
Re:Our prayers are with (Score:5, Insightful)
Keep everyone at NASA in your thoughts/prayers.. every person feels a sense of pride when a mission is successful, and likewise a sense of guilt when something tragic happens. I've read numerous books/articles/whatnot about the previous NASA tragedies and they not only affect the crews and families but the engineers and maintenance people who work with these vehicles and systems. The level of guilt (up to the point of some taking their own lives) is extremely difficult to handle.
Think not only of the crew and families; think of the entire NASA family.
-r
Re:This is terrible... (Score:3, Insightful)
Don't worry about being unpatriotic. This is the problem with America hit right on the nose. Profit rather than success and a sense of history is the motive for our endeavors. Rather, we equate profit with success. Every major religion points out that long term success is not found in riches, but in collective memory. Forget the war on terrorism. The war should be on short-sightedness. Short-sightedness on the part of a powerful nation like the US leads to the world we live in now. As Jose Ramon-Horta, East Timorese leader, says "The US has the potential to do so some good and clearly wants to do so. It just lets the interests of a callous few control its obvious means to greater good." America should be focusing on greater endeavors than the "War on Terrorism" -- Space is one of them.
The Buddha said:
"See yourself in others. How can you do harm?"
It is hard to say that a totalitarian regime like the one in China could be more prescient than the US and realize that space is part of humanity's destiny. Maybe their understanding of intense privation has a lot to do with it. There has to be something better.
Re:This is terrible (Score:5, Insightful)
This is end of the a manned space program, at least for the short-term.
I totally agree with this, but now NASA will be in a VERY tough spot. ISS's Expedition Six crew which went up in November I think are scheduled to return sometime in April or May. I couldn't imagine NASA ungrounding the shuttle fleet by then.. This brings about a whole round of questions... How long CAN the Expedition Six crew stay on the ISS? Can the Russian space program possibly return the astronauts to earth? Will NASA be forced to temporarily unground one shuttle for the mission, keeping everyone on pins and needles during the entire flight? This is a say day for NASA, space exploration, and humandkind in general.
Shayne
Re:Not meaning to flame... (Score:2, Insightful)
I, for one, felt a deep heavy sadness when I saw the news this morning, far beyond the deaths of seven human beings. Space flight is dangerous, and astronauts are brave and dedicated --- I think it's reasonable to feel differently about a group of people that die trying to achieve a worthy and inspiring goal than about the same number of people, or even the exact same people, dying accidentally.
annmariabell.com [annmariabell.com]
Reagan's day-of Challenger speech (Score:5, Insightful)
President Reagan's Speech on The Challenger Disaster
Oval Office of the White House
January 28, 1986
Ladies and Gentlemen, I'd planned to speak to you tonight to report on the state of the Union, but the events of earlier today have led me to change those plans. Today is a day for mourning and remembering. Nancy and I are pained to the core by the tragedy of the shuttle Challenger. We know we share this pain with all of the people of our country. This is truly a national loss.
Nineteen years ago, almost to the day, we lost three astronauts in a terrible accident on the ground. But, we've never lost an astronaut in flight; we've never had a tragedy like this. And perhaps we've forgotten the courage it took for the crew of the shuttle; but they, the Challenger Seven, were aware of the dangers, but overcame them and did their jobs brilliantly. We mourn seven heroes: Michael Smith, Dick Scobee, Judith Resnik, Ronald McNair, Ellison Onizuka, Gregory Jarvis, and Christa McAuliffe. We mourn their loss as a nation together.
For the families of the seven, we cannot bear, as you do, the full impact of this tragedy. But we feel the loss, and we're thinking about you so very much. Your loved ones were daring and brave, and they had that special grace, that special spirit that says, 'Give me a challenge and I'll meet it with joy.' They had a hunger to explore the universe and discover its truths. They wished to serve, and they did. They served all of us.
We've grown used to wonders in this century. It's hard to dazzle us. But for twenty-five years the United States space program has been doing just that. We've grown used to the idea of space, and perhaps we forget that we've only just begun. We're still pioneers. They, the members of the Challenger crew, were pioneers.
And I want to say something to the schoolchildren of America who were watching the live coverage of the shuttle's takeoff. I know it is hard to understand, but sometimes painful things like this happen. It's all part of the process of exploration and discovery. It's all part of taking a chance and expanding man's horizons. The future doesn't belong to the fainthearted; it belongs to the brave. The Challenger crew was pulling us into the future, and we'll continue to follow them...
I've always had great faith in and respect for our space program, and what happened today does nothing to diminish it. We don't hide our space program. We don't keep secrets and cover things up. We do it all up front and in public. That's the way freedom is, and we wouldn't change it for a minute. We'll continue our quest in space. There will be more shuttle flights and more shuttle crews and, yes, more volunteers, more civilians, more teachers in space. Nothing ends here; our hopes and our journeys continue. I want to add that I wish I could talk to every man and woman who works for NASA or who worked on this mission and tell them: "Your dedication and professionalism have moved and impressed us for decades. And we know of your anguish. We share it."
There's a coincidence today. On this day 390 years ago, the great explorer Sir Francis Drake died aboard ship off the coast of Panama. In his lifetime the great frontiers were the oceans, and a historian later said, 'He lived by the sea, died on it, and was buried in it.' Well, today we can say of the Challenger crew: Their dedication was, like Drake's, complete.
The crew of the space shuttle Challenger honoured us by the manner in which they lived their lives. We will never forget them, nor the last time we saw them, this morning, as they prepared for the journey and waved goodbye and 'slipped the surly bonds of earth' to 'touch the face of God.'
Could crew experience be a factor? (Score:3, Insightful)
I absolutely am not putting this at their feet. However, it obviously will be one of the questions raised during the search for answers.
MSNBC [msnbc.com] has the crew profiles embedded in their story.
Re:Not funny in any way (Score:2, Insightful)
Disaster magnitude? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Not funny in any way (Score:5, Insightful)
You reminded me of Robert Heinlein (Score:4, Insightful)
Let the sweet fresh breezes heal me
As they rove around the girth
Of our lovely mother planet
Of the cool, green hills of Earth.
We rot in the moulds of Venus,
We retch at her tainted breath.
Foul are her flooded jungles,
Crawling with unclean death.
[ --- the harsh bright soil of Luna ---
--- Saturn's rainbow rings ---
--- the frozen night of Titan --- ]
We've tried each spinning space mote
And reckoned its true worth:
Take us back again to the homes of men
On the cool, green hills of Earth.
The arching sky is calling
Spacemen back to their trade.
ALL HANDS! STAND BY! FREE FALLING!
And the lights below us fade.
Out ride the sons of Terra,
Far drives the thundering jet,
Up leaps a race of Earthmen,
Out, far, and onward yet ---
We pray for one last landing
On the globe that gave us birth;
Let us rest our eyes on the friendly skies
And the cool, green hills of Earth.
-- Robert A. Heinlein
The seven astronauts were explorers and would have understood, even though there was always a chance they wouldn't get their 'last landing' they did what they had to do. Others will take their place, the 'arching sky' will always be calling us, there's too much still unknown to give up now.
Re:I heard it (Score:1, Insightful)
Yes. Discriminate. Not prejudice, but discriminate. You clearly cannot understand the difference between the two words. Hindus, animists, and Lutherans don't have a history of using violence against US assets. Muslims do. Those middle-eastern people who are not muslim haven't attacked us, and therefore can be discounted as a threat.
Do you even stop to consider the fact that not every Muslim is a terrorist?
Do you stop to consider that just about every Muslim DOES advocate terrorism against Israel (whether they call it that or not; they do not recognize Israel's right to exist), and that an Israeli was aboard the shuttle?
Sir, you are a moron. The odds that terrorism is a factor in this tragedy are sitting at about 0.00000001% right now
You are clueless. To immediately discount terrorism is as idiotic as immediately assuming terrorism. The probability of the event being terrorism is low, but it is certainly not nonexistent (pre-launch sabotage of the tiles or aerodynamic systems could cause an event identical to what was observed), and you are a fool to suggest otherwise.
They claim that some insulation fell from the shuttle when they launched
Idiot. That was insulation off the external tank, and the probability of it damaging the shuttle to a sufficient extent to cause this incident is even lower than the probability that this was terrorism.
Re:Shuttles. (Score:1, Insightful)
Leave the politics alone for a few days, right now you can't accomplish anything other than the creation of ill will towards you.
Magellan - death is part of taking risks (Score:5, Insightful)
What would have happened if exploration had been written off as "too risky" after that? I guess those of us here in the New World (at least, those of European descent) are lucky that our ancestors were greedy enough to continue onwards despite those risks.
Exploration & Risks - Magellan (Score:5, Insightful)
What would have happened if exploration had been written off as "too risky" after that? I guess those of us here in the New World (at least, those of us of European descent) are lucky that our ancestors were greedy enough to continue onwards despite those risks.
Re:This is terrible (Score:2, Insightful)
Tragedy (Score:3, Insightful)
Compared to this sacrefice, all my life's accomplishments are naught. My heart goes out to the families of the astronauts.
Re:Please (Score:2, Insightful)
Reread his post and then your response and see if you can work out which of you was attacking someone. He very mildly responded to a request that everyone pray. You suggested that he kill himself. I assume that your religion isn't one of the ones that advocates tolerance?
Re:Never mind Mars, what about the ISS? (Score:5, Insightful)
Three now. Four including the original Enterprise. I wonder if they'll retrofit her now, to replace Columbia?
Unlikely. The Enterprise was never meant to go into space and is only for training inside the atmosphere. Retrofitting it would probably be more work and money than building a whole new shuttle. Enterprise is also very old, and it is likely that Columbia's age played an indirect part in this accident. If I were an astronaut, I would not want to fly on a retrofitted Enterprise.
How about the whole ISS project anyway? Is this going to toast that for good, too?
I expect rocky times ahead for the ISS. The United States is the primary financial backer and provides basically all of the manned missions. Without our support, the ISS is toast. I expect not only NASA to investigate and put things on hold, but also Congress. They are the ones that apropriate funding to NASA. Expect a lot of Congressional debate about our space program in the near future. I would not be surprised if this accelerates plans to privative NASA, an idea that our government has been kicking around for a while. We already contract out a lot of work at NASA.
Politics... (Score:5, Insightful)
So talk to your friends, tell them why space flight is important, and even more importantly, tell your congressmen what you think. They are the ones that control the money going into the space program. If nobody lets them know that we want space flight to continue, we might lose it entirely.
Re:Very sad... (Score:5, Insightful)
Just think of the amount of fuel you'd have to use to propel something from the Earth to the Space Shuttle at a velocity high enough to actually hit it-- probably the only thing fast enough on this planet that could carry that much fuel would be another Space Shuttle.
Look, even if you remove every terrorist from the planet, bad things are still going to happen-- even to Americans.
Re:Broken tile, not terrorism...? (Score:2, Insightful)
the U.S. space program -- which never recovered from Challenger's loss -- may soon be dead as well.
This appears to be a very common thought in the posts....my question is why? Airplanes have crashed, boats have sunk, and cars have had accidents yet we have not abandoned them. As flying to outer space an inherently more dangerous and risky proposition, why the shock that an accident has occurred and the concession to forgo further space exploration?
Many people have died exploring the earth, yet humans pressed on. Let us grieve for the families of the fallen, honor the astronauts for their bravery and desire to better human kind....and let us continue to press on.
Re:Now for the real jokes.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why are our prayers with them? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I heard it (Score:3, Insightful)
The problem is that Western MEDIA doesn't show us this. Clearly you can understand that.
Re:Very sad... (Score:3, Insightful)
If this upsets you, get rid of your TV! I got rid of my TV in 1997 (and haven't owned one since). It's one of the smartest decisions I've ever made.
Even if you dont own a TV you will be exposed to the media, but TV pervays the worst prepared, most informal 'journalism'. In other words, its largely useless as a source of information. What information you do glean from the TV, you can find in more trustworthy print media sources and internet sources.
Maybe you like TV because of its shoddy presentation of facts and sensationalism. Some people enjoy getting angry at the TV. I often wonder what my dad would do if he couldn't yell at his omnidirectional sludge box.
The future seems bleak...or does it ? (Score:3, Insightful)
The long term solution (circa five years)would be to completely replace the STS with a new, cheap and safe reusable launch system.
Expect the cancellation of "Prometheus" shortly, the billion will be needed to replace the Columbia instead.
Expect massive criticism and the selection of a NASA scapegoat by US congress, some of your congresscritters will want to destroy the entire space effort.
Expect speeches by Bush Jr and President Cheney about the necessity to beat the Red Chinese and the former Soviets from being the only ones with a space presence.
Space is too important to give up because of an old and slowly decaying STS. Replacements can be cheap and fast. If any of you have read "Encounter with Tiber" by Buzz Aldrin and Steven Barnes you know what Im talking about.
Re:Very sad... (Score:2, Insightful)
Yes... The report earlier this morning on NPR mentioned that a tile had dislodged on launch, and struck a wing. There was supposedly no serious damage at the time.
A piece of insulating foam broke off the external fuel tank and hit the left wing of the shuttle during liftoff. The chances of this causing problems is highly unlikely, given the titanium shielding along the leading edge of the wing and the super-strong construction of the airframe's wings.
But maybe it did cause a problem. Obviously something did. We will find out in due time.
Re:Space Shuttle (Score:5, Insightful)
Is this really a tragedy? (Score:1, Insightful)
Space travel is a tricky business, for it involves physical extremes thoroughly hostile to human life. Accidents are bound to happen, every so often. Is this worth the while? I think so. Space travel is an exploration undertaking that will dwarf anything we humans have accomplished before in the exploration endeavors. The price in human life is therefore likely to be large.
As far as the deceased astronauts are concerned, I envy them. What a magnificent way to go! Just think about it: those guys were living what is very likely the most exciting exploratory activity nowadays. More likely than not, they loved what they were doing.
It is of course regrettable that the effort cost them their lives. But I can't think of a better way to go than doing something you really care for, you really enjoy. I am sure that they and their families were aware of the risks involved, and accepted them.
The bottom line is, I hope that this will not put the brakes on space traveling again. We must accept that deaths are going to happen, and just keep going. If we take no chances we won't get anywhere.
Re:Don't watch FNC (Score:3, Insightful)
God help me, but I'm about to defend Fox News Channel... IMHO, they're using the ticker in exactly the right manner. The main story occupies the main window, but other news doesn't suddenly stop happening. I don't know if what they're running really counts as "news", but that would be an appropriate thing to run.
Re:This is terrible (Score:4, Insightful)
Why keep putting humans into space?
If we can develop the technique of moving Life into Space, we can better manage the resources of this planet.
Being able to keep a Human alive in space is kinda like trying to grow massive crops of useful resources - corn, weed, etc.
If we can master this, we can stop raping Earth.
Imagine if we moved all of our heavy, dangerous, high-pollutant based industry to a place in space where super-dangerous materials of Earth magnitude are puny compared to what's natively there
Not to mention delivery is just a drop away.
It's cheap to move shit in Space, once you get up there and work it out!
A lot cheaper than here on Earth.
Face it, Space won't happen until we make it valuable, and the intrinsic values are too numerous to imagine right now.
We get more from looking at things directly, sometimes - or at least being close to the things we're looking at - than the devices we use to look in our place.
A good way to get the tech we need to actually put Life into Space, is simply to accept the challenge - and defeat it - of putting Human Beings happily in Space, able to survive.
Re:Hrmmm... mars? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:God rest their souls (Score:5, Insightful)
You know what, I'll just go ahead and say what I've been wanting to say for AGES about manned space flight. It's fucking dangerous. It's one of the most dangerous operations that any human can be involved with. No amount of investigation, upgrading, efficiency, or what not is going to change that basic nature of the equation. The energy involved at certain critical points (launch, reentry) is of such a high order that it simply isn't feasibly to introduce life-saving components. When something occurs at such critical points (which of course, is when it is most likely that something WILL go wrong), everyone is going to die. Period.
The Russian and US space programs have known this for ages, but the US public just doesn't want to accept the fact that their are serious risks involved with putting human beings in orbit and getting them home safely. The complexity of the systems required to do such is of such an order of magnitude that it's just impossible to create any orbital delivery system that is completely failsafe.
This isn't, by any account, to say that NASA shouldn't attempt to figure out what happened and prevent it from happening in the future. Of course they should, that's their job. But to expect that accidents will never occur is naive beyond reason.
We need to either accept the inherent risks or quit putting people in orbit.
In other news today: 40 dead, 60 wounded (Score:1, Insightful)
Silver lining? (Score:5, Insightful)
Fly
Your assuming it was a missle.... (Score:4, Insightful)
One again, as I said highly unlikely to impossible. I believe it was a mechanical failure of some sort.
But flying 2 jumbo jets into the Twin Towers, destroying the towers and killing 1000s of people was unlikely too. So I retain some skeptism of "accidents" especially on such a large target.
Brian Ellenberger
Re:God rest their souls (Score:5, Insightful)
Keep going! (Score:1, Insightful)
Same with engineers. Something doesn't work right, then get it right the next time!
That said, the people that put out the most effort in this kind of endeavour are the ones that should decided whether or not there is to be a cessation of exploration! Taking the time to ponder the reasons for the failure is one thing, and any good engineer would do so. But an outright halt to the space program isn't going to happen.
Good!
Re:Don't watch FNC (Score:3, Insightful)
Nothing in politics is inevitable. People can always make the difference. In this case we have essentially a single individual, George W Bush who is the advocate of this war. Without him there would be no war. In a constitution of checks and balances individual power is seriously limited.
The numbers of casualties in the war are likely to dwarf this disaster. It is likely that the civilian casualties alone will be tens of thousands. The number of US troops killed is unlikely to be less than hundreds.
I don't agree that the war is inevitable though. Blair just got an extension of six weeks to try to convince other allies. In particular they really need permission from Turkey to use bases there. Blix has stated that the Bush administration deliberately misrepresented his report. The diplomatic initiative could well swing against Bush and his chickenhawks.
It is one thing to say you will start a war with no allies, no UN support and little domestic support. It is quite another to actually send the troops in for a land invasion.
What is very likely to happen is a prolonged bombing campaign launched from air craft carriers and Diego Garcia. The real issue will be whether Bush can keep the attacks going long enough to get Saddam before the news reports of hospitals, schools etc. being bombed take their toll. The British press don't think Blair will last more than a few weeks if there is a war, he does not have party support, even the Tory opposition, Thatcher's party is opposed.
The bulk of the US casualties would come from an actual land invasion. Bush may habe the theoretical ability to launch an invasion with no other support, in practice there are real limits to his authority. It is very unlikely he could launch an invasion if there was serious opposition to the war and people such as Schwatzkof and Powell went to Congress and said that there would likely be thousands of casualties if the land invasion went ahead.
The GOP has set a very dangerous precedent with their frivolous impeachment of Clinton. It would only take a small number of disaffected Republicans to bring an impeachment.
Rest in peace STS-107 crew (Score:2, Insightful)
Remember Gus Grissom's words (Score:5, Insightful)
- Gus Grissom, responding to a reporter, at a press conference for the first manned Apollo mission.
Re:God rest their souls (Score:4, Insightful)
Idiot. Do you know why they are called children? Why they are considered dependents? Why kids cannot vote, why they can't drink, why they can't agree to contracts?
Because children are not mentally nor emotionally capable of handling the grim realities pumped out by the media. The job of the parents is to protect children from these horrid images until those kids are mature enough to understand. It is the job of the parents to shelter the kids from the harsh realities of life. To take the raw data and figure out how to put it into terms that the kid can 1. understand and 2. not scar them mentally or emotionally.
If you want to fuck your own kids up, that's fine, but don't tell other parents how to raise their own kids.
We need to build new shuttles for the 21st century (Score:4, Insightful)
Terrible indeed, but... (Score:3, Insightful)
Sure, you might say we have more technology, but by no means do we have the technology to travel to and from the cosmos like we do to cross the oceans now.
Alot more lives will be lost, and there will be nothing we can do about it, except hope we learn from our mistakes.
Everyone knows there is a higher risk of death or injury to these brave people.
But that is just a chance you have to take.
Re:In other news today: 40 dead, 60 wounded (Score:3, Insightful)
It is bad, of course, when anybody dies. But car crashes, including bad ones, happen hundreds, if not thousands of times a day, over the entire world.
It isn't everyday that a NASA space shuttle is destroyed upon re-entry. It is everyday that bad car accidents occur. Look for space accidents to drop off in reporting once commercial space flight takes off in a hundred years.
Re:$DEITY? (Score:1, Insightful)
He didn't squabble; he just used the term he was comfortable with. You're the one who seems to want to make an issue out if it, for reasons I can't imagine.
Re:Photos (Score:5, Insightful)
Calm down. It's called the freedom of speech. People can say insensitive things and they're allowed to do so, it's the great thing about the US.
And, please, what makes this any more sad than 7 people dying on the streets tonight? What makes this any more important than the prospect of hundreds of thousands of people dying in a forthcoming war?
This is a sad event, and will rock the nation, but still.. it's 7 people. If Bush has his way, thousands more will be dead soon, and I bet you won't be crying into your hankies then.
And because I believe in these rights to free speech, I'm not hiding behind the Anonymous Coward either.
Safety Record (Score:1, Insightful)
The Shuttle program has a shorter history of 22 years of spaceflight, killing 15 people in two fatal accidents (8 and 7 respectively). If I were an insurance company, I would recommend Soyuz.
Re:Just to add to the speculation... (Score:3, Insightful)
Even the simplest private planes with folding landing gear have redundant systems to warn of gear lock failure.
Re:Please (Score:1, Insightful)
In that one sentance you pretty much some up my feeling on the way most religous people think. You claim to be religous and then you tell someone to go kill themself because they have offended you.
Why is it that the non-religous generally have higher moral standards and more integrity than the average religous person?
Re:NASA site mission STS-107 (Score:3, Insightful)
I feel deeply for the families and friends of all of those involved in this horrible tragedy.
It is time that we give up on the Shuttle Program and create/use something better.
We are a planet of one race... I think it is time we start acting like it.
Unity. Peace. Exploration. Knowledge.
They should launch again as soon as possible (Score:4, Insightful)
Similairly when a person in skydiving has a near death event, it's also typical that they immediately go back up and do another skydive as soon as they're able to. It's kind of a cliche, but "getting back on the horse" is an important part of life. When people don't go back up, it's not uncommon for them to leave the sport entirely, ie. give in to their fears.
Space travel is dangerous, and shit's gonna happen. No matter what decisions are made, how safe you play the game, eventually somewhere somehow something bad will go wrong and with the dangers and forces involved with space travel that will usually mean people will die.
But that should not cause any interruptions in the space program. Just because a shuttle went down doesn't make them unsafe. In fact considering how often they go up, I'd say 1 shuttle down every 18 years is pretty damn good. NASA needs to get another shuttle up and get back on the horse ASAP.
Unfortunately what will probably happen is that the space program will be suspended while everyone plays the blame game. Fingers will be pointed, a lot of If's will be thrown around: If they hadn't dismissed the damage done to the wing at launch - If they had rehauled the shuttle more carefully in '99 - If more money was spent on the program - If we weren't using 20 year old technology - If, if, if...
If you skydive long enough, you'll see people die. The forces are extreme enough in the sport, that small mistakes can become lethal. Space travel involves forces even more extreme: here we had a craft screaming through re-entry into earth at 12,000 miles per hour. I can't begin to imagine the kind of stresses those forces put on a space craft.
Eventually the odds are going to catch up with those involved, something nobody thought of will happen and with such extreme forces involved, people will die.
But death doesn't mean you put all life on hold.
When you push the limits of human experience, the price is risk. But life without risk is meaningless.
Re:This is terrible (Score:4, Insightful)
Not because this in itself is a goal, but because it is an essential ingredient for a future with a world we might actually someday be proud of.
Re:Disaster magnitude? (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't think we can understand how profound that step was. This dream is older than us, older than our civilization, and older than any history or record that survives the ravages of time. And now we've made it real. We've seen birds fly, but nothing living on this earth above the level of virus has ever ventured beyond it. That is a unique human achievement, perhaps in a sense our greatest.
That is why this is a greater disaster. Because it hinders our pursuit of the dream. People do not stop flying because a twin-engine plane goes down. But there is a real chance our resolve will weaken, and we will let this dream slip back to the shadows. Mankind needs a dream, to reach for the unimaginable. Space is our dream. We cannot afford to lose it, or we lose much more than lives.
We all have to die. The tragic part of this is that these people will not get to see their children grow up, and their families suffer one of the greatest losses they can suffer. But if I were to pick the way I would die, daring the exploration of the stars is a great way to go. Better to die daring greatly, then remain always what might have been. That is our risk, and that is humanity's risk - that we become what might have been. We make mistakes, we suffer loss, but we dare greatness. That is what makes humanity worthwhile.
Re:God rest their souls (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:NASA site mission STS-107 (Score:3, Insightful)
No, it's not. More precisely, manned space travel isn't worth the risk. (Unmanned missions are risk-free by comparison)
Just look at the kinds of leading edge science this crew died to perform:
http://www.wff.nasa.gov/~sspp/sem/about.html [nasa.gov]
Manned space flight (both shuttle trips, and the International Space Station) are today worth neither the risk nor the money. I like what John Pike [globalsecurity.org] said about the ISS: "The value of the science that can be done on the Space Station is trivial compared to the cost of the Space Station. Piloted spaceflight is about politics."
Let's look specifically at the ISS, which is the destination for most of the recent shuttle flights. Keeping humans supplied in space takes many extra trips up and down: all the air, water, food, living space, and exercise equipement takes up valuable cubic meters. And all of the provisions for safety and gentle re-entry further reduce the fuel efficiency of the rockets.
The ISS program, and the supply flights to build & support it, will have a total price tag of at around $100,000,000,000.
Scientific-notation kinds of fundage ($1e11)!! You'd have to be a NASA researcher just to count it all.
Virtually all of the science and maintenannce done on Shuttles and the ISS could be accomplished by semi-autonomous robots. Sure, today maybe our robotics and AI technology isn't good enough to substitute for some of the tricky things where a dynamic, flexible human is needed. Well, try investing a fraction of the $1e11 budget into researching those systems, and then tell me how well they work!
Developing better robots to operate space equipment won't only make extra-planetary research safer and cheaper- it'll also produce technological advances that will benefit civilians around the world!
(Rocket-boosters are only needed by astronauts and admirals. But reliable robot manipulators could be useful to anyone)
I fear for the public reaction agenst NASA and space traval from this day forward.
I hope the public wises up that manned space flight is an expensive and dangerous form of esteem-boosting entertainment.
Re:Troll: Why is this story on slashdot?? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:God rest their souls (Score:3, Insightful)
OTOH, I do think it might be better for kids to watch the news in this case. I very clearly remember watching the footage of the Challenger disaster and the subsequent memorial service when I was in third grade. It was heart-breaking, but I wouldn't trade that experience (even as young as I was) for anything.
Just my $0.02.
Re:NASA site mission STS-107 (Score:4, Insightful)
I for one want to see a Moon colony, Mars colony, etc.
We aren't going to get off this rock if we only send robots into space.
No. We need low orbit ... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:This is terrible (Score:4, Insightful)
Astronautical research created the way our world works, and saves lives in the air and on the ground daily.
Re:Reality Check (Score:2, Insightful)
While it's likely true that whatever failed didn't 'need' to fail that doesn't mean that these deaths were "easily-avoidable" by any stretch. There is no system, mechanical, biological, electrical in this world that is perfect. There will continue to be people who die as a result. The odds are against us as the statistic is that ten out of every ten people die. Some die due to biological malfunction, while others might die in accidents.
Don't try to over simplify the problem or the answers.
Re:Space flight stll viable (Score:2, Insightful)
Of course, voters may see it differently... but I still hold out hope that NASA won't have to ground the fleet for more than a month or two. I don't forsee a regression of the kind that happened post-Challenger for NASA this time... it isn't feasible. At the very least, someone will have to go retrieve the crew of Space Station Alpha very soon.
But beyond that, space exploration is part of what we as humans do... exploration. When Challenger exploded in the 1980s, people felt a little safer, NASA's STS was untouchable... people rationally knew it could fail, but in many ways it was assumed in their hearts to be infallible. This time, people know the STS isn't perfect, but you know what? These two tragedies plot a safety record that's extraordinarily good for the complexity and the intricacy of the machines, tasks, and environments involved.
NASA has lost its innocence for another generation, but I think this may be a much less innocent generation than the one of the 1980s... I hope the voters in America will recognize that if we want to do anything great, risk is involved. The astronauts know that, NASA knows that... it's time Americans knew that again, too.
Re:NASA site mission STS-107 (Score:3, Insightful)
Go build a plexiglass dome in Antartica and live there for a few years, to see how moon life would feel. Remember to keep it sealed, so you can't have any additional air, water, or food. Only sunlight gets in. If you survive, then we can talk about extraterrestrial colonies.
"Getting off this rock" is a good goal- for a 100+ year timeframe! This discussion is science-fiction terrirtory.
There's no need to start moving off-planet yet. Sure, it's arguably overpopulated already, and it'll get more crowded as the century goes on- but the most barren, desolate wasteland on earth is a paradise compared to what you'd find on the surface of Mars or Luna!
To live in space soonest, we should fork the research into 2 branches:
Once those 2 research branches have been followed through to independent success, true space colonization research can begin. But trying to develop both the spaceflight technology and the human sustainment skills at the same time- as the ISS program is doing- is an expensive, dangerous folly.
Re:God rest their souls (Score:3, Insightful)
I agree 100%. Space flight is indeed dangerous. But one also has to look at the statistics of NASA's shuttle program: 107 launches, 2 failures (losses?). That's a pretty good record for this type of thing. There's gonna be speculation out the ass about what caused it... maybe it was old age (structural failure) or that insulation thing they're thinking about that damage the heat shield. I don't know.
The energy involved at certain critical points (launch, reentry) is of such a high order that it simply isn't feasibly to introduce life-saving components.
In a case such as the re-entry breakup in question, I actually feel that it would be feasible to have a life saving component here. Perhaps they were going too fast but then again, people have free-fallen from very high altitudes and survived. My first though was maybe some kind of expandable, I don't know let's call it an air brake, on the crew capsule that can be deployed once they pass the firey part of the re-entry procedure in case of an emergency. Couple that with some parachutes and it might actually work.
Regardless, the lessons learned from this tragedy will help to prevent another one in the future. I think NASA needs to "get back on the horse" as the expresison goes. The crew change and additional module for the ISS should go up on schedule, unless this is found to be a structural failure of some kind that affects all shuttle orbiters, or they decide to implement some sort of system in the crew capsule.
Re:God rest their souls (Score:3, Insightful)
Because children are not mentally nor emotionally capable of handling the grim realities pumped out by the media.
I have to disagree with you. It completely depends on the individual child whether or not they can handle the stresses that life brings. I remember watching the news of the explosion in 1986...I was 7 years old, and I understood the magnitude of what had happened. It didn't "fuck me up". It was a realization that bad things happen, and when they do, there isn't always going to be a happy ending.
The job of the parents is to protect children from these horrid images until those kids are mature enough to understand. It is the job of the parents to shelter the kids from the harsh realities of life.
I hope that your children don't end up sheltered from reality to the point that when they do have to face it, they come running back to you so you can make it better.
Re:NASA site mission STS-107 (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:$DEITY? (Score:3, Insightful)
Sad commentary on society when that's what it takes to get people's attention. When was the last time that this happened??
Re:bring back the VentureStar (Score:3, Insightful)
high flight (Score:2, Insightful)
Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun-split clouds - and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of - wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there,
I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air.
Up, up the long, delirious, burning blue
I've topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace
Where never lark, or even eagle flew -
And, while with silent lifting mind I've trod
The high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand and touched the face of God.
John Gillespie Magee, Jr.
Pilot Officer John G. Magee, Jr.
High Flight was composed by Pilot Officer John Gillespie Magee, Jr., an American serving with the Royal Canadian Air Force. He was born in Shanghai, China in 1922, the son of missionary parents, Reverend and Mrs. John Gillespie Magee; his father was an American and his mother was originally a British citizen.
He came to the U.S. in 1939 and earned a scholarship to Yale, but in September 1940 he enlisted in the RCAF and was graduated as a pilot. He was sent to England for combat duty in July 1941.
In August or September 1941, Pilot Officer Magee composed High Flight and sent a copy to his parents. Several months later, on December 11, 1941 his Spitfire collided with another plane over England and Magee, only 19 years of age, crashed to his death.
His remains are buried in the churchyard cemetery at Scopwick, Lincolnshire.
Will we ever learn... (Score:5, Insightful)
This brought back memories of a paragraph from the Feynman report after the challenger disaster which warns precisely about this:
We have also found that certification criteria used in Flight Readiness Reviews often develop a gradually decreasing strictness. The argument that the same risk was flown before without failure is often accepted as an argument for the safety of accepting it again. Because of this, obvious weaknesses are accepted again and again, sometimes without a sufficiently serious attempt to remedy them, or to delay a flight because of their continued presence.
Something Many seem to miss with the Tiles (Score:4, Insightful)
There was nothing they could do about it. They could not repair any damage. They couldn't meet up with Station, They couldn't stay on orbit much longer, Certainly not long enough to mount a rescue. The only choice they had was attempting re-entry and landing. They couldn't launch the Soyuz on the pad for a rescue because soyuz is not capable of making shuttles normal orbit, not to mention that is a progres module and not one designed for re-entry and even if it were it could only hold 3 minus anyone needed for launch ( normally 2 )..Choices where
A) Stay in orbit and die when life support failed. B) Hope it held together on re-entry.
and thats if they discovered an issue before they went for de-orbit burn. If they found out after that there only choice was hoping it held together on re-entry.
The same applies to almost any problem which may have developed of a structural nature.
Bush's rhetoric: Mr. War goes sentimental (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Too high and too fast for missiles... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Several Comments (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:human remains found... (Score:2, Insightful)