Melting Away Ice Hazards 131
RadioheadKid writes "Dartmouth College Professor Victor F. Petrenko is getting a grip on ice. He and his colleagues have found ways to take advantage of the "protonic" semiconductor properties of frozen water. They see many applications of this discovery from melting ice on power lines to electronic speed control for skis and snowboards. I guess those Petrenkos just love the ice."
Ice Conference (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Ice Conference (Score:2)
Inventions in the near future (Score:1)
Re:Inventions in the near future (Score:1)
Great... (Score:1)
If that doesn't change your life for the better, I don't know what else would...
Re:Great... (Score:0, Redundant)
Re:Great... (Score:2, Interesting)
WorldRecord 1999 [speedski.com]
I've seen them ski in Les Arcs (France) in 1999 and although the view was very impressive, since then I'm convinced that these people are completely nuts or incredibly brave. :-)
Furthermore, I think that reducing ski-resistance is not going to help these people. I think it's wind resistance that's holding them back.
Cheers, Matt
your sig (Score:2)
POKE 53280,0
POKE 53281,0
Argh! That's black border, black screen! God Almighty, my brain is full of the same thing too, and I didn't even know it!
Re:your sig (Score:2)
Now where's that Beagle Bros. poster when I really need it...
Re:your sig (Score:1)
Re:Great... (Score:1)
Well, just wait. It won't be long before some other mad scientist invents aerodynamic human to take care of that problem!
It would have been nice... (Score:0)
Indeed it would! (Score:0)
Only you - in your phantasmagorically subsistance based revenue stream - could possibly have set my Interplanar house of cards alight!
Even now - my tungsten shielded Caterpillar gunships are enroute to your Elven base of total DOOM!
Why, just this morning I had thoughts of rendering your subspace 38 degree grid TOTALLY and UTTERLY inoperable!
*pause for a deep breath*
Car traction? (Score:1)
Re:Car traction? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Car traction? (Score:1)
try the second link (Score:3, Informative)
What's most interesting about the opposite application (deicing) seems to be that they are using the ice to melt itself.
The deicing will clearly be more efficient, since resistive heaters are so very inefficient... but they should still have to expend at least the amount of energy that would be needed to convert the ice to water... 80 calories per gram, if I recall my Heat of Fusion values correctly (physics was like 15 years ago, so I may have that totally wrong)
Still, to avoid all those losses from inefficient resistive heaters? Potentially very lucrative tech here.
They even have prototypes already... I'm impressed.
Re:try the second link (Score:2, Informative)
Re:try the second link (Score:2)
Re:try the second link (Score:1)
Nothing is 100% effifient except people... They annoy me 100% of the time.
Re:try the second link (Score:2)
But they don't need to convert ALL of the ice to water. This process works by just heating the microscopic surface layer of the ice. Once the layer bonding the ice to the wing has melted the the rest of the ice can slide off nearly friction-free.
-
Re:try the second link (Score:1)
pain...behind...left...eye...
inner pedant crying out...
three hundred thirty three joules per gram
TELL THE TRUTH: YOU WERE WANKING WHILE DRIVING! (Score:0)
Re:TELL THE TRUTH: YOU WERE WANKING WHILE DRIVING! (Score:0)
Re:TELL THE TRUTH: YOU WERE WANKING WHILE DRIVING! (Score:0)
So you gave her head, got a raging boner and she didn't finish you off because she "wouldn't have sex"? And you settled for that?
What an idiot.
Re:Car traction? (Score:1)
Perhaps reading the articles would help? They specifically mention an increase of 90% in tire traction.
Fascinating stuff (Score:4, Interesting)
Water really is an interesting material.
Universal solvent (polar solvent, for you organic chemistry nitpickers)
Has its greatest density BEFORE it reaches its solid state of matter (ice). If you ever wondered why ponds and rivers don't freeze from the bottom up, that's the reason. Someone correct me, but I think the temperature of greatest density is 39F.
That's really quite a discovery... can't wait to see if they can make something useful out of it.
Re:Fascinating stuff (Score:0, Funny)
You know when fluoridation first began?
Mandrake:
No. No, I don't, Jack. No.
Ripper:
Nineteen hundred and forty six. Nineteen fortysix, Mandrake. How does that coincide with your postwar commie conspiracy, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual, and certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard core commie works.
Mandrake:
Jack... Jack, listen, tell me, ah... when did you first become, well, develop this theory.
Ripper:
Well, I ah, I I first became aware of it, Mandrake, during the physical act of love.
Mandrake:
sighs fearfully
Ripper:
Yes a profound sense of fatigue, a feeling of emptiness followed. Luckily I was able to interpret these feelings correctly: loss of essence.
Mandrake:
Yes...
Re:Fascinating stuff (Score:1)
I have no idea what the parent post has to do with this article, but it's very much on-topic for me, because I worked for him a few years ago. That Dr. Strangelove scene came up a lot among his students... (For the record, Masters really knows his stuff; unfortunately, I don't think that biochem is his stuff.)
4 deg C is greatest density (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Fascinating stuff (Score:2)
Come to think of it (no pun intended- you'll see what I mean), in neurons, a voltage gradient is set up not using electrons or protons, but rather large (relatively) ions, specifically Na+ and K+. The activity of these pumps, along with the net charge associated with proteins in the neurons, produces a neuron resting potential of about -70 millivolts relative to the outside of the cell. Nerve impulses travel up and down the long thin neurons by a carefully choreographed operation of ion channels and pumps in the cell- the ion channels are voltage gated, so a nearby chnnge in potential results in ion channel opening, allowing a flood of positive sodium ions back into the neuron, causing the cell to become depolarized. Since a nearby depolarization triggers further depolarization along the length of the neuron, the changing electrical potential in the neuron can be seen as a wave racing down its length. At gaps between neurons (synapses) the electrical signal causes the release of a chemical neurotransmitter like acetylcholine or GABA, which diffuses to the terminus of another neuron, triggering the electrical signal again. In this way, the flow of ions leads to nerve impulses, and thus, even thoughts.
Re:Fascinating stuff (Score:0, Funny)
Have you ever seen a commie drink a glass of water?
Mandrake:
Well, no I... I can't say I have, Jack.
Ripper:
Vodka. That's what they drink, isn't it? Never water?
Mandrake:
Well I... I believe that's what they drink, Jack. Yes.
Ripper:
On no account will a commie ever drink water, and not without good reason.
Mandrake:
Oh, ah, yes. I don't quite.. see what you're getting at, Jack.
Ripper:
Water. That's what I'm getting at. Water. Mandrake, water is the source of all life. Seven tenths of this earth's surface is water. Why, you realize that.. seventy percent of you is water.
Mandrake:
Uhhh God...
Ripper:
And as human beings, you and I need fresh, pure water to replenish our precious bodily fluids.
Mandrake:
Yes. chuckles nervously
Ripper:
You beginning to understand?
Re:Fascinating stuff (Score:1)
Ice Hockey players electrocuted - new ice blamed (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Ice Hockey players electrocuted - new ice blame (Score:0)
Re:Ice Hockey players electrocuted - new ice blame (Score:0)
Re:Ice Hockey players electrocuted - new ice blame (Score:0)
These guys up in New Hampshire have really hit on something here. This maybe in practical terms the scientific application of the year.
Re:Ice Hockey players electrocuted - new ice blame (Score:0)
Reasons not to love ice (Score:2)
Ice not nice.
Off topic thread. Thread as in Pern (Score:0)
News Item: Total protonic reversal melts ice. (Score:2)
That's bad right?
Re:News Item: Total protonic reversal melts ice. (Score:0)
Re:News Item: Total protonic reversal melts ice. (Score:2)
Europa Exploration? (Score:4, Insightful)
I always hear that using heat to melt it would be impractical, but with a drill and this electric field effect maybe something more energy efficient could be done?
Re:Europa Exploration? (Score:2)
And stun every fish in the pond? At what cost progress!?
Science solving real problems in the world (Score:1)
Re:Science solving real problems in the world (Score:5, Insightful)
Trains operating in extreme weather because rails
and cables can be cleaned of ice fast and efficiently.
Fast de-icing of car windows.
Maybe car tires with a far better grip on ice and
new snow mobiles that are able to climb extreme
slopes (for alpine rescue crews).
This tech will likely save more than a few lives.
Re:Science solving real problems in the world (Score:1)
Re:Science solving real problems in the world (Score:1)
new snow mobiles that are able to climb extreme slopes (for alpine rescue crews).
...who'll be rescuing the idiots who were climing extreme slopes in their new snow mobiles.
Re:Science solving real problems in the world (Score:2)
Bah! Who cares! I just want my skis to be faster!
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Re:Science solving real problems in the world (Score:2)
Bah! Who cares! I just want my skis to be faster!
Heh. As a 33 year-old man who just took up the sport of sliding on snow (on a snowboard -- today was my first day, as a matter of fact), I'm more interested in making my board slower.
And if the way my body feels right now is any indication, this technology may just save *my* life. :-)
Re:Science solving real problems in the world (Score:2)
Already done. Ford has had this for a while, if you see an older Ford with a bronze-ish tinted front windshield, it has this. GM I think has something like this, but it's clear.
Re:Science solving real problems in the world (Score:2)
heats the glass - only the ice.
Re:Science solving real problems in the world (Score:0)
Yesss, faster skis... (Score:1)
The article mentions... (Score:1, Interesting)
For some reason, I'm thinking someone's vision on the uses for technology is a little out of focus here.
Re:The article mentions... (Score:0)
The research is what it is. It is new. Jesus, what does every expect all scientists to be God answering all questions?
Re:The article mentions... (Score:2, Interesting)
For some reason, I'm thinking someone's vision on the uses for technology is a little out of focus here.
Re:The article mentions... (Score:2)
Re:The article mentions... (Score:1)
Re: northern NH (Score:1)
In... (Score:0)
*dodging slaps*
Re:In... (Score:0)
any idea why? (Score:0)
One time I had a frozen bottle of water in the dark. I noticed that it producted a nice little spark inside the plastic bottle. Any idea what happen?
Re:any idea why? (Score:0)
Re:any idea why? (Score:2)
Dear God, someone save us!!! (Score:0)
Don't you see!!! The "F." stands for Fries [batman-superman.com]!!!
This was covered earlier (Score:1)
Re:This was covered earlier (Score:0)
nobody gives a rat's ass.
How skis work (Score:2, Interesting)
I imagine that most of you know the ideal gas law, ie that pressure and temperature are (almost) linearly related. So, if you increase the pressure, you should be able to melt snow or ice, right? If it gets colder, you just squeeze harder. This means that warm snow should be slipperier, since you can melt more snow, which will lubricate better, right?
Unfortunately, below 30 degrees Celsius or so, there is no way to get water, no matter what pressure you apply. Look at the following ice/water/vapour [sbu.ac.uk]
diagram. You will notice that vapour and liquids don't take up much of it, it's ice almost everywhere. And all ice below 240K (=-33C) or so.
So how could we possibly ski at below -33C? The answer is that we just slide on the snow. Occam's razor, ya?
Re:How skis work (Score:2)
How does one skate at colder than -33C? Simple. That pressure heats up the ice underneath you first, and then it can undergo phase transition.
Living in a really cold part of Canada is always good for useless cold-weather trivia, and yes, I've actually skated at colder than -40 (F or C, same difference at that point).
Wait ten or so years (Score:2)
piezoelectric roads? (Score:2, Interesting)
Of course IANAEE (I am not an electrical engineer) so I could be speaking from the wrong end here. Not sure on costs of such a system either but it seems like it could have benefit, especially considering how expensive bridges are to begin with.
Re:piezoelectric roads? (Score:2)
too hard to generate consistent currents with piezo. Piezo effect creates sharp, sparky jolts. Cheaper and easier to just plug the whole thing into the power grid and be done with it.
Obligatory cynicism (Score:2)
And the life cycle of such things is enormous. There are standards (codes in USenglish) to consider, which will need to be altered. Given the fear of litigation over design failure, the difficulty of proving the cost benefits, and the innate conservatism of people who make things that can be involved in major catastrophes, the development cycle could well be fifty years or more before there was any widespread application.
And perhaps that's why snowboards get mentioned. Like piezo tennis rackets, there will be early adopters who aren't actually very good at winter sports but have lots of cash and who will attribute the improvement that comes with practice to the miracle technology...might just sell.
Yeah! (Score:2)
If Man were meant to fly, he'd have wings!
And if he does, just think of the lawsuits!
Re:Obligatory cynicism (Score:2)
The real problem would probably be regulatory. The FAA is slow to approve things. Company lawyers are frightened of aircraft (because for some insane reason, plaintiffs have this misplaced belief that planes should be absolutely safe with no risk of crashing, and if there's ever an accident they sue anyone who has even touched the airframe). Also, the limited market tends to mean that new innovations in aviation tend to get limited to things that can be adapted from something else. The only thing that's really advanced in general aviation (i.e. non-airlines/military) has been avionics because of this.
solar power (Score:3, Interesting)
Ok, who right away thought of turning north and south poles into electricity generating power plants?
Yes! (Score:3, Funny)
what a cool guy... (Score:4, Funny)
who found flow where you'd not think to think so
In white Russian ice
he could make juice flow nice
now he dreams of cool cash and green dough
melting (Score:1)
{fizzlemelt}
Of course, that would've melted at room temperature, but I just wanted to get rid of it.
50 Watts per 100km? (Score:1)
So 50 watts per 100 kilometres shall be enough to melt quite a lot of ice? there is a lot of energy needed to transform ice of 0 C to water of 0 C, about 80 kcal = 320 kilojoule, so 320 kilowatts for one second or 88 watts for one hour. 50 watts will melt less than one kilogram of ice per hour, and that should be enough on a length of 100km cable?
I doubt it.
Re:50 Watts per 100km? (Score:2)
Perhaps they are only thinking of melting the thin layer of ice that holds the rest onto the wire?
Re:50 Watts per 100km? (Score:2)
Wouldn't it be cheaper to melt ice using two larger, parallel loads switched alternately between two sets of lines (PWM)? Also, every line should have a temp sensor to allow for temperature-compenstated capacity throttling. And for urban/suburban runs, for shit's sake put those ugly cables underground!
Also related: we need more spending on fusion power research so we can break our oil addiction. a fusion plant that produces a net gain in energy is likely to be huge, costing several G$. maybe solar+wind -> hydrogen is the way to go? replace natural gas w/ LH2? do your own electricity generation near home?
My
Wireless skis (Score:3, Interesting)
But if the control circuit used, say, Bluetooth, and the control buttons were in, say, the pole handles, then the skier would have good control while staying in motion. This could be quite nice.
(If somebody tries to patent the idea with a later date than today, remember, you heard it first on Slashdot, making it potentially Prior Art.)
Wow! College prof, Olympic gold winner, too! (Score:1)
ALBERTVILLE 1992:
Gold - Viktor Petrenko, Unified Team
Silver - Paul Wylie, United States
Bronze - Petr Barna, Czechoslovakia
He's been studying ice all his life
Re:Wow! College prof, Olympic gold winner, too! (Score:1)
favorite part... (Score:1)
Where do you find rubber like that?
-v
Bad idea (Score:2)
Then again, maybe it'll remove some of the stupid people in the world.
Re:Wait...wait...wait (Score:0)
You are supposed to be screwing the brains out of some brainy red head.
easy come, easy goo (Score:0)
the hole thing's toast anyway. J. Public doesn't have enough cash left to float their boats for won daze. ucann bet your
does anyone know what percentage of the toal value of "our" fairytail, totally bull, "economy", is based on gov't. supported/encouraged ill eagle stock markup ?pr? FUDgePacking/outright larceny?
Re:Pussy Pussy Pussy (Score:0)
Re:Pussy Pussy Pussy (Score:0)
Re:Vanilla Ice (Score:0)
Re:Vanilla Ice (Score:0)
If this turns out to be true, it will test the faith of a self-righteous slashbot!
Re:Vanilla Ice (Score:0)
Re:Talk during sex? (Score:0)
Then go and practise the lines, the pose and delivery while jerking off.
If you do this for about a week, you should be ready to satisfy any woman.
Re:Talk during sex? (Score:0)
Re:Talk during sex? (Score:0)
Re:Talk during sex? (Score:0)
In general, you tell her how beautiful she looks. Try to remember her name.
Women are more verbal...that means they like to TALK, not LISTEN. If you ever get a date, you'll find that out. Anything you say will eventually be repeated by her during an argument, twisted out of context, and used as proof that (a) all men are pigs (b) you are an insensitive clod and (c) you don't do the right things, but she won't tell you what the right things are, you have to just KNOW, because if she told you what she wanted then you'd be doing them just to please her and not because you really wanted to, but you can't read her mind so you can't know what she wants, which just proves that you don't want to do the right things and feel the right feelings etc.