The Casimir Effect 138
HobbySpacer writes "A recent article in Physics World provides a lucid description of the the Casimir effect, which is an attractive force between two surfaces caused by electromagnetic fluctuations in the vacuum. The article discusses some practical application such as the nanotech machines mentioned here earlier."
forces between objects? (Score:1, Interesting)
Yes... (Score:2)
The Casimir effect is something beyond that.
Re:Yes... (Score:1)
Basically, it all stems from a particle that may exist called a "higgs boson". Then you have higgs fields just like e-m fields, where the particle of transport for e-m fields would be photons.
So, if these higgs bosons do exist then all particles "exert" mass, just the same as all photons "exert" e-m properties on particles (heh).
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&
Re:Yes... (Score:2)
I thought mass was just another property anyway, and that it is already widely thought there are messenger particles for gravity. However, there just isn't a theory (yet) that tells us quantitatively how it works, like QED/electroweak theories and QCD.
Re:forces between objects? (Score:4, Informative)
Gravity is proportonal 1/d^2, while the Casimir force is proportional 1/d^4. Therefore, the Casimir force is much stronger at smaller distances, but practically non-existant at larger distances. As you halve the distance between two objects, the gravity increases by 4 times, but the Casimir force increases by 16 times.
The other force they mentioned is the Van der Waals force, which is really an electric force caused by the polarization of atoms and molecules at very small distances.
At the scale they were dealing with, the mass of the objects was so small and the distances so short that the Van der Waals force and the Casimir force was much much greater (>>) than the force of gravity.
Re:forces between objects? (Score:3, Informative)
Casimir and Infinite Energy (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Casimir and Infinite Energy (Score:2, Funny)
Re:forces between objects? (Score:1)
Force due to non-vacuum (Score:2, Interesting)
However, you can use the ideal gas equation to get an idea of what is happening:
PV = nRT
P is the Pressure, V is the Volume, n the number of molecules of gas, R the Rhydberg constant, and T the temperature. If you hold the temperature and the number of molecules constant and then decrease the volume (the case you mentioned above, where a single hydrogen atom has gotten in between the plates), the pressure will begin to grow linearly.
Because you are moving the plates together, the volume reduces in proportion to the distance between the plates. This means the pressure rises in proportion to the distance between the plates. I'll also make an assumption (a dangerous thing) that the temperature will remain constant because we'll give it time to cool off, and the number of particles remain the same. The last assumption is due to the plates being much larger than the distance between them, so only a very few number of particles on the edges will ever get to escape.
The force on the plates due to pressure is only the area of the plates times the pressure. As the pressure rises, the force rises proportionally.
Because the plates are attracted by the Casimir effect, and the casimir force grows quadratically as the plates draw nearer, eventually, even the pressure will be insignificant compared to the Casimir force. I think that's a pretty good conclusion using rough estimates.
In reality, you can't control the number of particles in the system unless you build some sort of box to hold stuff in between the plates. Also, the laws of thermodynamics depend on there being a large number (millions) of particles, so you can't use them with nay degree of reliability in these kind of situations. My conclusion is suspect, because it is really only an educational guess.
It is much easier to make a vacuum, thus making the problem a lot easier.
Re:Force due to non-vacuum (Score:4, Insightful)
PV = nRT
Er. Well, not quite. The ideal gas is exactly true only under a certain set of limiting conditions. These conditions include high temperature and low density, among others. For typical gases (oxygen, nitrogen, helium, carbon dioxide--you know, the stuff that comes to mind when we think 'gas') it's not a bad approximation at room temperature and one atmosphere of pressure. Allow a ~10% engineering fudge factor and you're pretty safe.
In the experiment you described, the particle density would become extremely high. A number unplesant (from a calculation standpoint) effects would make themselves known. For example, the volume occupied by gas molecules would have to be accounted for--something neglected by PV=nRT.
Depending on the gas used and the operating temperature used, you might also force a phase change (gas -> liquid or gas -> solid). Again, all bets are off when something weird like that happens.
Because the plates are attracted by the Casimir effect, and the casimir force grows quadratically as the plates draw nearer, eventually, even the pressure will be insignificant compared to the Casimir force. I think that's a pretty good conclusion using rough estimates.
Nope. There are other effects you might see, as well:
chemical interactions between the gas between the plates and the plate surface
physical deformation of the plates by the high-pressure material between them
limits on compression of the 'gas' because its constituent atoms are pretty close to incompressible
Of course, as you mentioned this experiment would be impractical in reality, because gas would escape around the edges of the parallel plates--it's a tough device to seal. (And it's hard to get around this by trying to move the plates together quickly. Gas molecules at room temperature typically move with speeds on the order of hundreds of meters per second--they don't stay in one place very long.)
Oh. Right. Casimir effect. It should go away when there's crud (gas or otherwise) between the states. Establishing standing waves between the plates requires empty space between them. A few gas molecules will weaken the effect--anything near one atmosphere (or worse) will kill it completely.
Re:forces between objects? (Score:1)
Re:forces between objects? (Score:1)
Gravity is just very very weak in comparison to the other forces at a small scale. The masses at that level are so small that you can safely ignore their influence for easier calculations, but the force is still there.
Re:forces between objects? (Score:2)
You're absolutely right. It's a good thing our atmosphere is only made up of macroscopic objects.
Re:forces between objects? (Score:1, Offtopic)
Or did you mean narcoscopic objects, objects which can only be seen under the influence of narcotics???
Re:forces between objects? (Score:1, Flamebait)
Uhh...yeah...gravity. That's right, kid, it's just gravity. Head back to your classroom, now. I think the teacher's finished reading "Charlotte's Web" and is starting a lesson on decimal addition. Don't worry too much; you'll learn all about gravity when you get to high school. You might even learn about magnetism.
Seriously...what has happened to science education? I'd read about the four forces when I was in junior high (and there were still four...electroweak hadn't been proved/discovered/demonstrated yet). I knew that magnets had nothing to do with gravity before I was ten. I'm nobody special, so what gives?
Re:forces between objects? (Score:1, Redundant)
You maybe smart, but you seem to be ignorant.
Instead of showing your cock off to everyone about how intelligent you are. Why don't you acctually explain the difference?
EVERYONE, LOOK AT MY INTELLIGENT COCK (Score:1)
Re:EVERYONE, LOOK AT MY INTELLIGENT COCK (Score:1)
Re:forces between objects? (Score:2)
Re:forces between objects? (Score:1)
Most people don't remember half the stuff they learn in school unless they use it....Most of the population aren't phyisicists.
Re:forces between objects? (Score:1)
Re:forces between objects? (Score:2)
The Big U and the Casimir Effect (Score:2)
Did Stephenson have a special reason for naming his protagonist after this strange force? Was it a metaphor for how he was mysteriously attracted to his female friend? Or am I just trying too hard to explain an author's choice of names?
Re:The Big U and the Casimir Effect (Score:1)
More on topic: I have a feeling it was, it's another one of Stephenson's tongue-in-cheeck *wink*wink* nerd jokes that he seems to love!
-OZ
Re:The Big U and the Casimir Effect (Score:1)
another Casimir (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:another Casimir (Score:1)
It's even the first choice on google [google.com]!
So, it felt strange when I read the 'Casimir Effect'
Re:another Casimir (Score:2)
If so they are not related.
Re:another Casimir (Score:2)
Re:another Casimir (Score:2)
For those that don't know, vacuum fluctations are everywhere. It's a quantum mechanical thing that I won't attempt to explain, but basically, try to remove everything, all energy and matter, that you can from a region of space, and because of the heisenberg uncertainty principle, there will still be energy left.
The problem is, that this energy is everywhere, so to use it you have to find a place that has LESS energy in it, so the energy can flow. That's what I believe this Casimir effect is. The SECOND problem is to figure out how to do work from the energy flow.
How it works (Score:2, Insightful)
It only works on uncharged plates.
What does charge have to do with it? (Score:1)
Besides, having a charge on the plates means you are going to get a force between the plates -- attractive or repulsive, depending on the charge -- that is inversely proportional to the distance squared.
The Casimir force is inversely proportional to the distance to the fourth power, and so the electric force will become insignificant as the distance becomes very small.
Re:What does charge have to do with it? (Score:1)
I hope you're sitting down for this, but photons are affected by charge. Quantum mechanics says photons constantly form electron-positron pairs, which then mutually annihilate to reform the original photon. These particles are charged and are affected by surrounding charges. This is not some kind of mathematical theory; it has been verified experimentally, and is the underlying reason for the refractive index of materials.
This could solve another problem (Score:2)
casimir == van der waals (Score:1)
from a physics point of view one has a hamiltonian (function which describes the whole system) for which one can integrate out the degrees of freedom of the dielectric or the degrees of freedom of the electromagnetic vacuum. if you remove the dielectric degrees of freedom, you get equations for the EM field which will give you a casimir force when you look at the cero point energies of the system with and without the dielectricum. if you integrate out the field, you will get an effective interaction term for the dielectrica and hence a vdW force.
note also, that both, van der waals and casimir forces depend with a power law on the distance between the objects, usually at a high power and are therefore extremely short-ranged. there are some nice papers and experiments measuring both at the usual archive xxx.lanl.gov [lanl.gov]. just search for casimir...
casimir != van der waals (Score:4, Informative)
The Casimir effect between two parallel uncharged plates in a vacuum at zero kelvin is given by:
pi^2 h-bar c
F = ----------- A
240 r^4
A = area of the plates and r is the separation distance.
The Van der Waals interaction can be considered and computed as a semi-classical electrostatic effect. The Casimir effect, although sometimes referred to as a "long-range Van der Waals effect" is fundamentally a quantum concept as shown by the appearance of h-bar in the equation above.
As you indicate, both forces follow a power law, but the Casimir effect will appear, again, between "neutral, conducting" plates at absolute zero, i.e. in a configuration where electrostatic forces due to charge distribution are not present, and the power relationship differs by an order of magnitude.
So the two forces are fundamentally different conceptually and similar in that they both describe attractive forces between objects. However the latter similarity would also allow you to say that casimir == ferromagnetism if that is the only metric.
Re:casimir != van der waals (Score:1)
Re:casimir != van der waals (Score:1)
Re:casimir == van der waals (Score:1)
Re:casimir == van der waals (Score:4, Informative)
http://www.stephenwolfram.com/publications/arti
Originally in Annals of Physics 147 (1983). I also came across an interesting paper in the June Physical Review Letters, by P. Bruno at the Max Planck Institute, available at:
http://www.mpi-halle.mpg.de/~bruno/publis/2002_
on calculating a magnetic Casimir effect for parallel ferromagnetic plates, which shows the resultant effect as antiferromagnetic.
As classical electromagnetism derives from an underlying quantum formulation, I concede that that Van Der Waals interactions are essentially classical manifestations of an underlying quantum explanation. However the "classical" vacuum parallel plate Casimir effect is one of those quantum manifestations, like superfluidity, that would not be expected or predicted from "common sense" physics. Van Der Waals forces, calculated without recourse to quantum effects, serve to explain all manner of chemical interactions and phase transitions, and, apparently, the adhesion of geckos to walls
(Note: I am not a physicist, I only play one on Slashdot
Re:casimir == van der waals (Score:1)
Re:casimir == van der waals (Score:1)
Another Article (Alternative View) (Score:1)
Professor Cramer is the real deal. A physics professor at Washington University who is also a sci-fi fan and writer. He is also an excellent pop-science writer who can get his point across without dumbing things down. Enjoy.
hmm (Score:1)
Attractive Perpendicular force...Velcro mirrors? (Score:2)
It would seem to me that both surfaces would want to become the leg on the T on the other (if both sides of the leg are mirrored). Would the absence of protons cause collapse into the shape of a V on the connected (or close to connected) side? I would think not since the 90 degree would be broken as soon as the force was observed, I'm assuming it would not be the only force because if so wouldn't momentum eventually make the plates paralell and the effect would complete the movement. Sounds like nanites will look like modern art or sports cars, composed of paralellagrams and curves.
Perhaps structures could use several atom mirrors like velcro in construction? Does the force disappear when the distance is 0?
Re:Attractive Perpendicular force...Velcro mirrors (Score:2)
Well I guess so, but of course it wouldn't really be zero, just very very close. Atomic forces would insure that.
They weren't really clear on how a perpendicular casimir force works either. Does it twist like a right hand rule(the balls and plate), does fold at an angle, or is it held in place. The story said the force was observed, but what movement?
It's possible even likely I misunderstood, I was jsut wondering if anyone else gets it.
Re:The Casimir effect - unlimited energy? (Score:1)
A true vacuum? (Score:1)
other importances (Score:2)
at any rate... I think one of the "very important" aspect of this has to do with multi (>3) dimentional physics. I can't remember where I read it, but physicists are theorizing that at millimeter (or less) distances, we will see gravity suddenly becomes disobedient of the inverse square law (which would prove the "we live in half dozen dimentions) theory. Now -- measuring gravity on a millimetre scale is hard enough, but when you throw in all these "fluctuation forces" (Van der Waal, Casmir, whatever), you will seriously screw up any chance you have on the Nobel prize... so people are trying to get all these things sorted out and verify some gravity, etc.
Space travel using the Casimir effect (Score:1)
A bad typo... (Score:1)
Re:Practical details? (Score:1)
Re:The problem is simpler still (Score:1)
Obviously there are no absolutes. The first thing our teachers taught us was this... we have 5 limited senses, and even with the best machinery we have, they are still limited tremendously - and even above that, everything we build to augment their abilities is BASED OFF OF their abilities... IE: we build tools to allow us to "see" what we already know of in a better way... while we perceive so little because those senses are so limited. And all this based off imagination fueled by those limited senses.
My point was the article is contradictory in its own statements by a vacuum being redefined 3? 4? times, and so on and so on as I was trying to indicate.
I am beginning to think you just felt like griping instead of really reading and trying to understand what I wrote.
Next time, dont be so grumpy and read what others write before you fire off an attack... heck, you wont even need to post anonymously when you can then post an intelligent response!
- Rob
Re:Interesting twisted misconceptions... (Score:1)
I also know that last year they determined that a photon at rest DOES have mass, finally "proving" correct other theorists who also claimed it was a big flaw in einstein's theories. Heck, it even finally made slashdot a few months ago.
Ooops... if you dont want to do the research, then at least pay better attention to slashdot and you'd know you were wrong. Including numerous non-related articles where photons, that supposedly travel one speed, exhibitted far slower speeds.
Ah well... the truth is it is all probably wrong. We see one thing, and we apply the theory we create for it to everything... which is the reason why a number of theorized quantum particles cant exist either... but alas... I am done with this debate. Universities and researches half the globe around claim photons at rest have mass, there are quantum particles that travel faster than light, blah, blah, blah... while others claim them frauds.
My only reason for believing those who seem to see things as not so simple is the quite simple "rule" that humankind has more often than not (or more accurately "virtually always") learned some "short" time in the future, that (s)he is totally wrong about every theory.
Then again, that's why they are theories.
Anyway, I am really done with this conversation... a simple web search on simply photon and mass will result in a dozen different conflicting theories nowadays, many held by our premeire universities and institutions (such as Brookhaven Labs, where I used to live...) We could argue till the end of time... and the only thing that would happen is the theories we were arguing about would be replaced by others (just like sections of Einsteins are being revised to incorporate other theories to explain away the variances he didnt account for).
Re:Interesting twisted misconceptions... (Score:1)
Nope. There's no such thing as a "photon at rest". A photon always travels at the speed of light.
However, you are correct that there is no such thing as an absolute vacuum. Since photons have mass (m=E/c^2), the only way to create an absolute vacuum is to take all particles and photons out, and that's not possible (microwave background radiation).
But! There is a quantum theory concept of zero-point energy. Like everything else in quantum physics, it's totally weird, and the Casimir effect is closely associated with it. There's more to it than your explanations, so maybe you should do a Google search on "zero-point energy".
Re:Interesting twisted misconceptions... (Score:2, Insightful)
Your opening sentence is incorrect, and that makes hash of the rest of your post. You seem to be discussing classical vacuum, and in fact seem to be stuck on classical physics in general. For instace, a complete absense of everything would not have a temperature of zero, it would have no temperature.
I'm not a big physicist myself, but you are criticizing things that you don't even have the faintest conception of. Vacuum fluctations result from virtual particles, which is a concept that some view of is necessary to rationalize certain other quantum effects that occur in particle interaction. You need to learn more.
Re:Interesting twisted misconceptions... (Score:1)
"virtual particles"... How neat! It's based off the same stupid principle that particles even exist, which is also believed to be untrue - it just makes it easier to work with because we can quantify "amounts" of energy easier when measured thus (also because "we" cannot seem to grasp measuring energy as an n-dimensional field as opposed to as a grouping of particles.).
I am far more well versed in the field than you would be had you dedicated your college career to it - my current occupation not withstanding (which was chosen because I thought it time to work for myself in something I found more fun).
Re:Interesting twisted misconceptions... (Score:2)
Uh-huh. I'm counting at least 20 points scored on the crackpot index [freerepublic.com], ten from that sentence alone. Unusually low score, perhaps, but in the absense of substance that's all I've got to go on.
The humourous part is that I'd lay money your theories, assuming you actually HAVE any as opposed to merely disagreeing with thousands of very smart people, have no coherent explanation for the casimir effect or other similar phenomena.
My response to the whole italisized bullshit paragraph is that once again, you make it clear that you do not have much understanding of any physics that I've ever seen, and persist in mixing classical and quantum physics without regards for the very carefully defined boundaries placed on those definitions. Your attacks would have much more substance if you weren't attacking strawman physics. (Basically, nobody claims the classical definition of vacuum is anything but an approximation useful in certain circumstances anymore.)
I won't be replying any further, so please take the crackpot's great joy of having the last word and milk it for all it's worth.
Re:Interesting twisted misconceptions... (Score:2)
Re:Interesting twisted misconceptions... (Score:2)
I have been wondering how on one hand a Bose-Einstein condensate can be produced, thanks to the operation of the uncertainty principal, and yet IBM can still apparently herd individual atoms into patterns of smiley-faces and other interesting patterns, which seems to violate the uncertainty principal, since the location and momentum of the atoms employed must both be pretty well fixed in order to produce a readable image as claimed. Anyway, thanks for the reply.
Modern view of vacuum (Score:1)
We model the existence of all particles as energy levels. As you pointed out, mass is just a form of energy - the lowest energy rung corrosponds to a particle at rest and the energy is just mc^2. Of course, this is only true for MASSIVE particles, massless particles only have kinetic energy. We have a vacuum state that has "no particles in it".
To make this notion precise, we define the vacuum state of a system to be any state such that trying to eliminate a particle (a photon, a massive particle etc) will give you zero. This way, any process that tries to remove a particle to go ahead (such as destroy a particle at point A and recreate it at point B - this is the way Quantum theories see particles as moving!) will contribute zero if it operates on the vacuum state.
However, operators such as the energy operator do not always have a "remove particle BLAH" in every term. Thus, when they operate on the vacuum state it is possible to have a non-zero mean. By the uncertainity principle, if there is a NON-COMMUTING observable then there also exists a (non-zero) fluctuation of this value - measured by physisicts and mathematicans as the square of the deviation from the average.
Some people choose to interpret these as virtual particles popping in and out of existence. The mathematics works the same, so this is a just a picture in ones head to help one think about these things. The mathematics gives us the option - we can take the "picture" interpretation or just do the maths.
Hope this helps!
Damien Martin
Beat (Score:2)
Re:Beat (Score:2)
But that trips the Wacko Switch.
My roommate had an idea about the Kasimir effect (Score:1)
HAH!
A primer on Casimir Effect (Score:5, Informative)
Imagine a "vacuum" with two metallic (reflecting) plates in it, sitting near each other. The vacuum isn't pure. Photons could exist in it, momentarily, as governed by Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, wherein the energy of the photon is inversely proportional to the time it exists. Gamma rays would exist for a short period of time, radio waves much longer. Eventually, the Universe checks its books and corrects the accounting error, the photons go back to non-existence - conservation of mass-energy is upheld.
Here's where it gets weird. The photons kinda-sorta existed (virtually), so they kinda sorta could exert an influence. Whoa. Strange.
Next, only certain frequencies are allowed. The frequencies allowed to "kinda sorta exist" are modal, that is, they have to terminate with a node on one of the plates. So, clearly, you can't have gigantic radio waves between these two plates - radio waves are meters in length, they're too big to fit between the plates. You can have some blue photons, and all the gammas you can handle.
Meanwhile, on the OTHER side of the plate, you get all of the radio waves you want - you have an entire universe to stuff them in! And the blue photons, and all the gammas you can handle. So ... there's just a few more potential electromagnetic waves (virtual photons) on the OUTSIDES of the plates than there are on the INSIDE of the two plates - this leads to a net push of the plates together.
But that's not all - the force experienced by those two plates depends on a lot of things. In the symposium in question, it was demonstrated that, with the right geometry (concentric shells, weird flower-like arrangements) that the Casimir effect can be repulsive.
In short, it isn't always 1/r^4, and it isn't always attractive.
Now, for those of you who would like a free lunch out of this effect, it's not going to happen. Why? 'cause you have to push the plates back apart to complete a full cycle for any "free energy" machine you would like to devise. It's like a waterfall - you only get that energy from something falling down ONCE.
No, it doesn't have anything to do with the Higgs boson. No, it doesn't come from some folded-up dimension. No, it doesn't have to do anything with gravity at small ranges. C.E. results entirely from QM + EM.
On an aside, correcting other bits of non-information in these posts: no, photons are not influenced by charge. No, photons do not constantly form electron-positron pairs - most photons do not have enough energy to form an electron-positron pair - do the math if you don't believe me. The refractivity of materials comes from something entirely different. Photons don't have a non-zero rest mass - they never "rest" (discussion of the Bose-Einstein condensate usually ignores that the information about the photon was stored) - and many experiments have placed upper limits on the proper mass of a photon as being no greater than 10^-50 grams.
Re:A primer on Casimir Effect (Score:2, Informative)
Re:A primer on Casimir Effect (Score:3, Informative)
first, very nice intro, mostly correct.
photons are not influenced by charge
photons are eigenvectors of pure EM hamiltonian. In this approximation, they are indeed uneffected by charge.
However, there is matter-radiation interaction (the (P-e/c*A)^2 parts) terms in the more general hamiltonian, and radiation does indeed interact with charged matter (not just exciting atoms: lookup bremsstrahlung radiation)
so, in short: photons are not eigenkets of the general EM+matter hamiltonian, therefore they do interact with charged matter.
free enegry (Score:1)
If two tiny mirrors were attracted to each other with both the forces of gravity and the casimir effect, the work done by their movement would generate energy that could be captured. Once they are together, they could be slid apart, moved back apart while not facing each other and moved to face each other again.
1)
_____________
|
v
Casimir effect + gravity
n
|
_____________
2)
=============
^
|--Capture the energy of collision.
3)
slide right____________
____________slide left
Slide mirrors apart using stored energy.
4)
___________
^
|---------------|
v
__________
Push mirrors apart using stored energy.
5)
slide right _________
_________ slide left
Push or rotate mirrors to face each other again.
6) Repeat
I think if all the energy is captured, steps 3, 4 and 5 should eat up all the energy that was gained by the work that gravity performed. The rest of the energy, the work that was done by the Casimir effect is yours to keep. Do this with a billion little mirrors in a space-based power plant and you're set.
I must be missing something cause perpetual motion let's all sorts of bad things happen like time travel, superluminal flight and entropy reversal. Sorry about being sloppy with my terminology. I'm probably misusing "work", "force" and "energy" in this context.
So am I wrong about something or is this scheme truly money for nothing and chicks for free?
Re:free enegry (Score:1)
they always ... (Score:1)