
Man Conquers Space 164
dirtyhank writes "Half a century ago space exploration was the ultimate adventure and a team headed by Wernher von Braun dreamed about it for Colliers Magazine. Their vision of the future to come was too optimistic though and we haven't made to Mars yet. Now the dreamers are some people in Australia trying to produce Man Conquers Space, a documentary based on the premise that all that had been proposed in the early 1950's in Colliers actually came to pass - and sooner than they expected."
Tomorrow's follow-up story (Score:1, Insightful)
Man Conquers Space (Score:1, Funny)
Yet another Sci-Fi (Score:1)
Same story, different spirit. (Score:2, Insightful)
People may not realize it, but over the course of the past 50 years; we have accomplished what science fiction novels merely speculated about not as far back ago as the 1970's.
Being only 16, I'm not as knowledgable about it as you elder slashdotters; but American and Russian accomplishments in space are more monumental than we realize. Being a firm believer in the theory that we actually did put a man on the moon; I am one to pay attention at the tremendous problems and obstacles that the folks at NASA and the Russian Cosmonauts ran into.
These people are doing the same, but in a more intricate and viable manner. One that teaches others exactly what we are and have been capable of, as long as we put our heads together. One could argue that the step from putting a dog in space and a man on the moon is one so tremendous it makes the evolution of the internet look like nothing more than a grade school game of "Telephone."
Keep that in mind before you toss aside these people's efforts as nothing more than a redundancy.
Re:Same story, different spirit. (Score:1)
Re:Yet another Sci-Fi (Score:5, Interesting)
Maybe you had to grow up then. I remember staying home from school to see the Gemini flights, when they were spacewalking for the first time. And then watching the moon landing on the neighbor's TV (we were in the country in Vermont and didn't have one there).
People were astonished that it had happened. Even people who intellectually knew it was possible somehow on some level never expected it to really come true.
And then after the moon landings, and after JFK's promise (to put a man on the moon "in this decade")had been fulfilled... nothing.
Sure there was Spacelab, made from leftover Saturn V parts, and there was Apollo/Soyuz, which I never saw the point of, even though it was very politically significant, because nothing *new* was being done there in terms of space travel.
But after Apollo, the space program was cut back. Way back. The fact that the Shuttle program got going at all was nearly a miracle. And the shuttle design we have now, the one with the horrible semi-reusable solid fuel boosters and the ultra-expensive non-reusable tank was a political compromise due entirely to budget cuts and funding limits. The real shuttle design was fully reusable and much safer: no uncontrollable solid boosters to blow up.
The reason seeing this preview choked me up was because it brought back to me the thought that, yes, we could have done it. We could have put those space stations up, we could have gone to Mars. We could have done so much more than we did in space. Instead, the money was spent on military hardware.
Re:Yet another Sci-Fi (Score:1)
I dunno about you, but I was all choked up just watching the teaser trailer (I was also amazed I *could* watch it and it hadn't been /.ed yet).
Maybe you had to grow up then. I remember staying home from school to see the Gemini flights, [...]
Lucky you. But for a lot of us, it was all over before we were born.
Idiot/SavantDamn Right! (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Damn Right! (Score:1)
"Imagine what the world would be like if schools got all the moeny they needed and the military had to hold a cake sale to raise funds for a new bomber."
what really it makes me wonder is that some people find this post "funny"
Re:Damn Right! (Score:2)
Kind of like "imagine what the world would be like if schools got all the money they needed, and then the Wahabis came and killed you [usyd.edu.au].".
Re:Damn Right! (Score:2)
Here are some words for you to contemplate while considering your "200 year stockpile" idea:
rust
decay
corrosion
half-life
And World War III never happened... because the US spends more money on defense than all the other countries in the world combined. Have a nice day.
Re:Damn Right! (Score:2)
They get the money to buy huge hardware systems that no one asked for from somewhere else.
There's a reason so many people in the military are using food stamps.
Re:Yet another Sci-Fi (Score:1)
(or permanent base) on mars, or launch a fleet
of space stations
achieved for the average person on earth?
Bugger all.
The entire apollo program was about as useful
as the construction of the pyramids.
Technically amazing, but totally useless in
practical terms. Maybe NASA should have faked
the moon landings - would it really have made
any difference?
( Not that the billions spent on military hardware
were a good idea either
Re:Yet another Sci-Fi (Score:2)
No, it doesn't help the average person. But if it isn't done, sooner or later there will BE no more average people.
Re:Yet another Sci-Fi (Score:2)
And FORGET all the processes we have developed to package and freeze food for long trips as a result of NASA. Refrigeration was good enough, and when people go into the deserts of third world countries, they can just eat raisins and rice.
Do you know why the government started putting much more money (than before that) into Universities after WWII? Because they realized that the atomic bomb was the result of "silly physicists" working in labs on things that were "technically amazing, but totally useless in practical terms." Good ideas abound when there is a way to cultivate them, and sometimes they are very fruitful. Also, necessity (of getting the job done, in this case) is the mother of invention.
Re:Yet another Sci-Fi (Score:1)
Re:Yet another Sci-Fi (Score:2)
If you're hungry for more, read Voyage. [amazon.com] It's the story of a manned Mars mission conceived after the moon landings, and finally coming to fruition in 1986, championed by JFK (who was only wounded in Dallas in 1963).
~Philly
Shuttle design compromises (Score:2)
Slashdot has proved to be an excellent resource for links to the Buran's design [dmoz.org]. Thanks slashdotters!
Well, I have this question about the American shuttle's design compromises. I have heard that political pressure from the USAF, and the military-industrial complex, resulted in a larger shuttle, capable of carrying larger, military payloads. I read that a smaller shuttle would have been cheaper to build and run.
True?
Safety? The Burans had four ejection seats.
The Buran could have carried five times the payload of the American shuttle.
Re:Shuttle design compromises (Score:2)
It is not quite as bad as this poster states. The original Buran [k26.com]the one to fly two orbits is safely stored at Baikonur. The second one, [k26.com] which had been scheduled to dock with Mir, in 1993, is 97% complete, and is also safely stored at Baikonur. The one in the Moscow's Gorky Park [lucia.it], was a full-scale mockup, like the American shuttle Enterprize.
Yes, the "evil empire" nonsense is a great shame. I think it is really in our interests to employ the aerospace and defense researchers of the former Soviet Union. If you click on the link for the Gorky Park shuttle, you will read that the author paid a few bucks for a security guard to give him a pre-opening tour. He writes that the security guard had formerly worked on the Buran's design team. Working as a security guard paid more than working in aerospace.
I am going to repeat something Dennis Tito said, in his press conference, after his return to Earth. You all remember that Tito was the first Space Tourist, getting a lift to the space shuttle aboard a Russian vehicle. At the time the idea of space tourism was so new, and shocking, that all kinds of commentators were commenting on how wasteful it was to spend $20,000,000 USD on a vacation, when the world faced problems of poverty, and threat of war. It was the first question Tito was asked at his press conference. Tito's answer was something like:
This is a great answer. It earned my respect. Soviet researchers were highly skilled, and it is a tragedy to have their training and experience go to waste.
But it not just the talents of Soviet aerospace researchers we need to make sure don't go to waste. I would feel the world was a more secure place if former Soviet defense researchers were getting grants from Western institutions, to lift them out of poverty. Visiting fellowships? Send Western students to go learn from them on exchange programs? I believe it is strongly in the West's interests to give these guys and gals jobs that use their talents and preserve their dignity.
Face it, who is going to be more tempted to sell their skills on the black market, or help smuggle out Fissile material? The researcher who has had his dignity restored with a good job, research facilities, and a living wage? Or the researcher who is starving in poverty?
We live in a money-centered world... (Score:4, Insightful)
There's a whole slew of phrases like 'when in rome, do as the romans do' or 'the best way to change a system is from the inside'
I'm afraid we're just going to have to accept this fact (that space exploration won't get another kick 'til it makes people money), and work towards making new propulsion systems, more efficient systems, etc. until we get to this point, then hopefully awareness will increase and people will get excited about space exploration for the sake of space exploration again (after it has blown up again for the sake of money).
Of course, a miracle (or a disaster) could cause this to go another way
Call me a pessimist, or even a defeatist, but this is how I see things.
Kind of like when a bacterial culture gets week strains weeded out in a tough time, maybe this can be good... if it doesn't kill everything.
Re:We live in a money-centered world... (Score:2, Insightful)
What I want to believe with all my heart is that there are, and will be, generations of hackers to work on such a project "Because We Can"(TM). Back in the cold war days these hackers received a lot of public funding. Right now they are on their own. But that doesn'tstop [armadilloaerospace.com] them [rocketguy.com] from trying.
Re:We live in a money-centered world... (Score:3, Interesting)
It could be, right now. Some people are already paying millions of dollars for a seat in the ISS, more would shell out a few tens of thousands for a suborbital parabolic flight, which a few companies are working towards. "Real" access to space is currently viewed as "way too expensive" because it's the way NASA does it, and people use it as a reference. It's not the technology, see Rand Simberg's recent column, We Don't Need No Stinkin' Technology [foxnews.com].
As for why NASA (and some other government agencies) does it that way, beyond the near-mythical "why have one when you can have one for the price of two", the previous one, Pork Versus Vision [foxnews.com], could be interesting. Or Stephen Baxter's "Voyage [sffworld.com]", which describes an alternate reality in which the US go all the way up to Mars as early as 1986, but (as opposed to this documentary) with a realistic view about politics. (You want Mars? OK, scrap this Space Shuttle thing, Apollo 15-20, and you have just enough Saturn V rockets for a single mission; what more do you want? A space station? Get real, Vietnam is expensive, we need the money for serious things!)
Even worse - we live in town-centralized world (Score:2, Insightful)
answer why space exploration stopped.
What we (I mean the world economy) need from
space technologies - GPS, InMarSat, Satellite TV.
It is almost all. For town-centric civilisation
it is cheaper to build cellular phone base-station
in every town and connect every TVset with broadcast-station via cable, than launch projects
like Iridium, which uses satellite technology.
If world population would spread more evenly (and welfare would spread more evenly among it) various space-based communication systems like Iridium
would be more viable.
Then they would bring hundreds of launches per year just for maintainance, and these hundreds of
launches would become cheap enough to make orbital production of certain materials (say semiconductor cristalls) commercially viable.
Then and only then space technologies would become cheap enough to allow individuals or private companies to think about interplatnetary flight.
Communication sattelittes are already part of world economy. I don't know how it is in America, but in Russia, where space technology is one of few high-technologies we can trade out, various sattelite projects are often mentioned on the first pages of financial newspapers.
Re:Even worse - we live in town-centralized world (Score:2)
I wasn't aware that Spacers were already hampering us... <g>
Sure, if you look at current markets, we don't need space. But if you look back a few years, we didn't need cell phones or the Internet either.
The point is, if costs drop enough, new markets will appear, be it on Earth (joyrides? New materials?) or directly in space (mining asteroids for materials doesn't make much sense - unless, that is, there are space stations and lunar colonies ready to buy them...)
And the point in my previous message is that dropping costs is possible now, without fancy new tech. The latter can and will be useful, but there is no need to wait for it to be finalized, instead of developing a market where it will develop all the faster.
Re:We live in a money-centered world... (Score:1)
Stephen Baxter's "Voyage", which describes an alternate reality in which the US go all the way up to Mars as early as 1986
Or you could try Allen Steele's The Tranquility Alternative, an alternate history in which the dreams of Ley and von Braun were realised (and described in loving detail by the author).
Idiot/SavantRe:We live in a money-centered world... (Score:1)
Don't give up hope yet - there's always the Chinese. The US DoD estimates that they're only 18 months away from a manned flight (they're on the verge of their fourth test of the Shenzhou capsule [bbc.co.uk]), and their putting a man in space may force the US into a second space race.
But absent that sort of international pissing contest, yes, we'll have to wait till it's profitable - whenever that may be.
Idiot/Savant
Re:We live in a money-centered world... (Score:3, Interesting)
Time for... (Score:1, Offtopic)
I mean server raising...
Or is that razeing...
Heck with it, let the slashdotting [netbreak.com.au] commence!
Wernher von Braun (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Wernher von Braun (Score:1)
Re:Wernher von Braun (Score:1)
I guess the (approx) 2700 killed and 6500 people seriously injured might
Re:Wernher von Braun (Score:2)
He would make a great large-org PHB.
"Who cares if the customers cannot use our new memory enhancements because the software won't manage it right. Software is not my department."
Re:Wernher von Braun (Score:1)
the nasa biography of his somehow misses that page.
Re:Wernher von Braun (Score:2)
Re:Wernher von Braun (Score:2)
Wasn't von Braun himself a member of the Nazi party? And as manager of a big research projects, wasn't he himself a big wig?
Wouldn't that VB himself a Nazi big wig?
I can't resist ... (Score:2, Funny)
Wernher von Braun:
And what is it that put America in the forefront of the nuclear nations? And what is it that will make it possible to spend twenty billion dollars of your money to put some clown on the moon? Well, it was good old American know how, that's what, as provided by good old Americans like Dr. Wernher von Braun!
Gather 'round while I sing you of Wernher von Braun,
A man whose allegiance
Is ruled by expedience.
Call him a Nazi, he won't even frown,
"Ha, Nazi, Schmazi," says Wernher von Braun.
Don't say that he's hypocritical,
Say rather that he's apolitical.
"Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down?
That's not my department," says Wernher von Braun.
Some have harsh words for this man of renown,
But some think our attitude
Should be one of gratitude,
Like the widows and cripples in old London town,
Who owe their large pensions to Wernher von Braun.
You too may be a big hero,
Once you've learned to count backwards to zero.
"In German oder English I know how to count down,
Und I'm learning Chinese!" says Wernher von Braun.
Re:I can't resist ... (Score:2)
You pretty much have to be apolitical to be in the weapons business.
Curious, though. I wonder if anybody interviewed victims of Nazi rockets during the Apollo 11 celebrations.
Re:I can't resist ... (Score:2)
"So what do you think about Werner von Brown's team having got to the moon?"
"Oh, very impressive, a marvellous achievement. Werner who?"
"The guy who invented the V2, the one that landed in your back garden when you were at school."
"Oh, doodlebugs."
"No, not doodlebugs, the other kind."
"What was that then? We only saw doodlebugs."
"Well, that's because the other ones were travelling so fast you couldn't see or hear them."
etc.
Basically
a) W von B isn't that notorious as a Nazi villain with her generation because his rockets came so late in the war and there was some secrecy and confusion about what they were.
and
b) NASA kept pretty quiet about W von B's contribution. As a 6 yr old I tried to read a lot about it but don't remember seeing a mention of him.
Perhaps he saved lives by diverting resources (Score:2)
Hitler was known to spend lots, perhaps too much, on high-tech gadgetry. His final tank was an expensive Edsel because he kept trying to top the prior one with size and power and went overboard.
If the war went on longer, then a lot of these "toys" may have been much more dangerous if perfected.
Perhaps von-B actually *saved* lives by making them spend effort on rockets rather than something with a sooner "payoff".
If you did the war accounting, I bet rockets were not a good expenditure in hindsite.
Re:I can't resist ... (Score:2)
Re:I can't resist ... (Score:2)
V2 attacks were initially described as gas explosions by the British government in order not to ascribe high-technology prowess to the Nazis. This didn't fool the public for long though, and they became known as 'flying gas mains'.
Exhaustive and infallible though your sources of knowledge may be, as specialist publications they do not necessarily reflect what appeared in the mainstream media.
Slightly off topic - never did "have a problem" (Score:2, Interesting)
55:55:20 (9:07 PM CT) - Swigert: "Okay, Houston, we've had a problem here."
Which is slightly different. You can read the transcript here [accessus.net].
Re:Slightly off topic - never did "have a problem" (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Slightly off topic - never did "have a problem" (Score:2)
That's too bad because Houston, we have a problem leads to an interesting result if you consider rewriting it in light of the admonishment There are no problems, only opportunities. Then the Apollo XIII phrase becomes equivalent to Houston, we have an opportunity which tickles my funny bone just right.
Man Conquers Space (Score:3, Funny)
yeah...
Kinda like how I conquered the mighty oceans last week when I went for a little paddle in the surf.
wait... (Score:2, Funny)
Re:wait... (Score:2)
Ah! No wonder they "conquered" the monochrome orbs first.
New business-model? (Score:1, Funny)
2: ?
3: Conquer space.
4: Profit!
Other links (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Other links (Score:1)
titter
Documentary? (Score:4, Funny)
Oh, yes. One of my favorite documentaries is by Steven Spielberg and is based on the premise that an alien was stranded on earth and befriended a human boy to help him get back home. Man, that documentary footage of those flying bikes is still vivid in my head.
Space... (Score:2, Funny)
Moore's Law for space? (Score:1)
Re:Moore's Law for space? (Score:2)
The current cost to LEO is about $2600/kg. I predict it will be $1300/kg in 2006.
Re:Moore's Law for space? (Score:1)
Re:Moore's Law for space? (Score:2)
To boldly place junk where no-one has placed junk before
"Increasing"? I don't think so. The sun's gravity is pulling at it. Some other force would have to be acting on it to be accelerating, and unless you found the stealth deathstar, there is not much out there.
Re:Moore's Law for space? (Score:2)
These are accelerations *relative* to expected position, not global acceleration relative to sun. (And the phenom is tiny.)
Also, my recollection is that they only found it in the Pioneer probes and a few others. For some unstated reason, they could not measure the affect on the Voyagers (even if it existed).
Is space exploration & astronomy today like pr (Score:1)
We'll never get to Mars because... (Score:1)
By the time all the hardware technology becomes available, the whole space of software - languages, algorithms, protocols, data structures etc - will be completely patented and owned by warring corporate interests.
The royalties on all the software patents will exceed, by orders of magnitude, the costs of hardware, training, admin etc. NASA will never be able to afford it.
Worse, if NASA just goes ahead and codes like they did in the '50s and '60s. Imagine sitting in the spacecraft, just entering the red planet's atmosphere, and hearing on the radio:
Can't click on the link (Score:5, Funny)
Irony. (Score:4, Insightful)
Is it just me, or does anyone else find the headline "Man conquers space" ironic coupled with the news of a half-mile-wide asteroid nearly missing Earth?
Re:Irony. (Score:2)
What are you talking about? It missed didn't it? As some other people have already pointed out, the efforts to find and deflect Earth striking asteroids has been a complete success! After all, during the couple of decades spent looking for them not ONE asteroid has successfully struck the Earth!
Re: (Score:1)
Gravity, and its opposite... (Score:2)
Mr P understands gravity. Yes, gravity sweeps a lot meteors to strike the Earth all the time. If I was a grammar nazi I would argue over the dividing line between a small asteroid and large meteor. Life is too short for that however.
Instead I will give you some friendly advice.
Mr P, you understand gravity perfectly. But Mr P, it is not enough to understand gravity. Sometimes you must understand the opposite of gravity -- comedy!
The use of lots of exclamation points should have been your first clue.
Space Travel, Internet Changing the Nation-State (Score:3, Insightful)
It is dismaying that so many posters here, and also in response to similar stories, criticize and deny the need for space travel (it is as natural and necessary as humanity's migration from th Great Rift Valley). Their imaginations and aspirations seem bounded by the limits on their credit cards.
Re:Space Travel, Internet Changing the Nation-Stat (Score:2)
Well said.
Re:Space Travel, Internet Changing the Nation-Stat (Score:2)
A what? (Score:2)
Re:A what? -- A "film" (Score:1)
As usual, hardly anyone bothers to read the cited article. The film makers don't call it a "documentary".
Von Braun Quote (Score:2)
When the first V-2 hit London von Braun remarked to his colleagues, "The rocket worked perfectly except for landing on the wrong planet.
Re:Von Braun Quote (Score:2)
Re:Von Braun Quote (Score:2)
It was not Von Braun's decision to use concentration camp dwelling forced labor in the factory, and the historians doubt he was very enthused about it. But would YOU have spoken out against it in Nazi Germany? I didn't think so. When he did voice an opinion that he felt the rockets were being wasted as weapons and he'd rather work on space travel, he was tossed in prison for a while.
According to the show, Von Braun barely ever visited Nordhausen, which was the assembly plant for the V-2s. He stayed at Peenemunde, the R & D facility. He certainly knew the forced laborers existed, but I don't think he was aware they were being worked and starved to death, and murdered when they were too weak to be useful.
NASA's policy when the war ended and we went in and grabbed all the German rocket scientists was, we couldn't take anyone directly involved in war crimes. Von Braun didn't meet this requirement, though it was discovered one of his right-hand men at NASA was the one who suggested using disposable slave labor at Nordhausen. When they found out, he was booted out of NASA, and I believe deported as well.
In Germany in those days, voicing an unpopular view was the quickest way to a jail cell or a coffin. Von Braun made the best choice he could-- he kept his mouth shut, gritted his teeth, and focused on the bigger picture of what his research would one day accomplish-- and that wasn't turning London into a smoking hole, little by little.
~Philly
Re:Von Braun Quote (Score:2)
However, after the US Army pretty carted off most of the contents of the Nordhausen factory to the USA, the V-2 derivatives built in the USA were of much higher quality, and those rockets fired from the White Sands Missile Range did a lot to pave the way for our modern rockets. Indeed, I believe it was in 1948 that a WAC Corporal rocket fitted to the top of a V-2 achieved an amazing altitude of several hundred miles.
Re: von Braun quote (Score:2)
In other words he was willing to take a moral stand. And he felt it was more important to object to a waste of money, rather than the cruel waste of human life?
You suggest he had just two choices: a suicidal objection to slave labour, or continuing, full-speed ahead, with the rocket program?
How about waiting for the war to be over, before continuing his rocket research?
What about resigning? What about getting fired for incompetence? What about faking some experiments to make the program look like a waste of money? What about pretending to become a hopeless alcoholic, or pretending to have a nervous breakdown? Rudolph Hess [google.ca] was able to defect, in May 1941. Was this a possibility for von Braun?
Grownups make lots of compromises. Do you go to Hawaii for Xmas, or do you get braces for your kid's teeth? Grownups give up thing to respect their principles.
Do we let the President of ENRON or Worldcomm claim they "didn't know" what was done by those who answered to them?
Re: von Braun quote (Score:2)
Hmmm. Future vanity or current relaxation?
Whatta choice.
Re: von Braun quote (Score:2)
Not to necessarily defend von Braun, but I suspect that few of the people who employed him were stupid. Odious genocidal maniacs, but not so stupid as to fall for any of those hoary old tricks. Resigning = bullet. Incompetence = bullet. Alcoholic = sent away to dry out, then told to get back to work, under close supervision and threat of aforementioned bullet. Hello, these were Nazis, remember? Watch "Triumph of the Will" again if you've forgotten what they were like. I only say all this because I doubt the average Slashdotter would have the courage to risk getting that bullet under similar circumstances.
Heroic scientists, who took a moral stand... (Score:2)
I am going to repeat my main point. Von Braun was prepared to risk his life to make a point. And the point he risked it to make was that he thought the Nazis were wasting money, not that they were wasting lives.
You suggest that most senior Nazis weren't stupid? Did you check out the link to the brief biography of Rudolph Hess? Clearly nutty as a fruit-cake.
Jacob Bronowski describes how one of the senior Nazis, Goebbels or Himmler IIRC, wanted to take Heisenberg away from atomic research to try to prove, once and for all, that the stars are made of ice.
Look at the German research into atomic weapons. It was a complete failure, but no one was shot, or thrown in prison. In his book "Surely you are joking Mr Feynman" Richard Feynman describes how he supervised a team of young Army enlisted guys, who were chosen right out of basic training because they had scientific ability. These guys were human calculators, and ran punched cards through big mechanical calculators, to perform the very labourious calculations necessary to determine the amount of Fissile material needed to make a bomb. Heisenberg's group did the same calculation, but their answer was wildly off. They thought a bomb would require hundreds of kilograms of U235, not a kilogram or two.
The suggestion has been made that Heisenberg, or someone in his group, purposely fouled up the calculation.
If Leo Szilard [peak.org] hadn't escaped from Germany one step ahead of the Nazis do you think that he would have refused to work on German weapons research? Szilard circulated petition [peak.org] to Truman among the other scientists pleading with him forgo dropping the bomb on a Japanese city before it had been demonstrated to the Japanese high command.
Szilard gave up Physics after the war. He wrote some science fiction [amazon.ca]. This collection includes the short story "My Trial as a War Criminal", which I will strongly recommend...
von Braun's moral courage (Score:2)
Let me see if I have this right. Von Braun was a card carrying Nazi wasn't he? We are not talking about an innocent civilian. We have a guy, who is head of weapons development programs that caused thousands of deaths, correct? Or possibly tens of thousands, as one of the other contributors to this thread said that many slave labourers were worked to death. We have this weapons developer, and you defend him because he might have been afraid to quit?
You really should read Szilard's [peak.org] "My trial as a War Criminal". It is set in 1949. The Soviets conquer America in a sneak germ warfare attack. President Truman, Secretary of War Stimson and Secretary of State Byrnes are to stand trial for their decision to drop the bomb. Szilard stands trial for his role in the development of the bomb. (After the Soviets offer him the same deal the Americans offered von Braun -- charges dropped if he moved to the Soviet Union, and worked on their weapons programs.)
Szilard is, I believe, correct to believe he and Truman would have stood trial under those circumstances. Truman is convicted of violating the 'customs of war', because prior to Hiroshima, it wasn't 'customary' to drop atomic bombs on cities.
And my interpretation would be that Szilard thought the Nuremberg trials were about vengeance, not justice. Germany and Yugoslavia had laws, which presumably included laws against kidnapping, rape, murder. Should those who ordered or committed kidnapping, rape or murder stand trial under the laws of their own nation? Or the nation where the crimes were committed?
If the reasons we didn't trust the Germans, Japanese to conduct trials for the crimes committed on their territory is that we don't trust it will result in a satisfactory verdict or sentence, then were the trials about justice, or vengeance?
If the war trials were truly just then Allied soldiers who committed war crimes should also have stood trial. Saving Private Ryan portrayed Americans shooting prisoners who had already surrendered. That is a war crime. I know these kinds of incidents happened -- maybe not on Omaha beach, but they did happen.
Are you suggesting that von Braun shouldn't have stood trial in Germany because his role was ambiguous? Isn't that what a trial is for? Or are you suggesting that von Braun shouldn't be punished because some other criminals slipped away unpunished? Mr or Ms Anonymous Coward, I have had occasions in my life where I have had my courage tested. I witnessed what appeared to be Police Brutality from my office window some time ago. I reported it to the Police Complaints Commision. Which resulted in having the investigator lean on me, and try to intimidate me. He made clear that before he investigated his fellow officers he was going to investigate me. In spite of this pressure I was dogged in my pursuit of the truth. I stuck to my principles. It took five months to learn what had really happened. Yes, frankly, it was frightening.No, this test wasn't nearly as challenging as those I believe von Braun should have faced. But then I didn't choose to manage a huge weapons development program.
I find it a bit ironic that you should question my courage, when you choose to post as an "anonymous coward".
About von Braun's status as a Nazi party member -- I was told this by a buddy of mine, who was a big fan of space exploration. He had read a biography of VB, and explained he wasn't really a Nazi. He just wanted to make rockets. He told me VB joined the Nazi party just because he thought it would make it easier for him to use his political pull to enable him to build rockets. My buddies interpretation was that VB was taking advantage of the Nazis.
Gilligan... (Score:1)
the space down there,
and the space between your ears!
Quote Fest (Score:2)
Man is the best computer we can put aboard a spacecraft... and the only one that can be mass produced with unskilled labor.
And one that's less than funny:
I aim for the stars, but sometimes I hit London.
Unless von Braun was sarcastically mocking Oscar Wilde's comment:
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
Re:Quote Fest (Score:2)
Re:Quote Fest (Score:2)
Re:Quote Fest (Score:2)
Re: (Score:1)
space exploration, more art than science (Score:2, Interesting)
We couldn't even go back to the moon again today because we have lost that knowledge base. Sure it was recorded, but the engineers that wrote it down have retired or died. There is a knowledge and experience gap with the following generation of engineers after the Apollo program who never had the opportunity to work under the masters because we stopped the big adventure and chose to stay in earth orbit.
The DoD will build a new fighter aircraft every 10 to 15 years whether they need one or not just so the next generation of engineers will know how to do it. It doesn't matter if it actually ever results in a procurement. The design process itself serves the purpose of training our engineers and keeping us technologically viable in that arena.
Obligatory Simpsons Reference (Score:1)
5F14 reference??? (Score:1)
Collier and Bonestell (Score:2)
Those wacky Australians (Score:2)
Geeks Conquer Females, a documentary based on the premise that all that we dreamt of as adolescents actually came to pass - and sooner than we expected.
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Ego Conquers Man (Score:2)
This sentence is random filler to get past slashdot's random filter.
von Braun was a Nazi bastard (Score:2, Insightful)
Since then I've read stories from slave-labor survivors about the atrocities at Thuringen and Peenemunde. It appears that my father's judgement was sound; von Braun was a cold-hearted slave-driver at the very least - and if the most extreme of the stories that eyewitnesses have told are true, then he was a sadistic monster.
If we are to honor von Braun for his contributions to science, we should equally decry his history of racism, slave labor exploitation, and possibly torture. At the very least our government should stop trying to cover it up, and NASA's biography of the man should include the testimony of the workers at Peenemunde.
Re:von Braun was a Nazi bastard (Score:2)
I will never go to Mars (Score:2)
We were told this as children, that we would travel space, the legacy for those of us who were born on the year men first walked the Moon. We watched reruns of Star Trek and marveled at the possibilities.
We dreamed.
Instead, we have the truth of a fucked up world were the Welfare State is the reality, and War is the only truth.
Help me dream again...
Re:I will never go to Mars (Score:2)
Or are dreams and the easy road of blaming others and inactivity your preference?
Would Make a Cool Television Series. . . (Score:2)
If written well and produced well, it would be fun!
Especially the part where greed, human stupidity and war-mongering don't get in the way of progress and exploration.
I guess that's where ol' Gene R. came from. .
-Fantastic Lad
WOMEN may conquer space, but not men... (Score:2)
Re:WOMEN may conquer space, but not men... (Score:2)
The finite, limited resources on a spaceship which is travelling, at minimum, for several lightyears need to keep multiple human generations alive. Wasting air, food and space on men just to guarantee reproduction of the species over that time period doesn't make any rational sense.
And your Feminist manure rant is just that - a rant. And by the way, I'm a man, not the feminist shrew you apparently have in your mind.
Rant:Conquer this! (Score:2)
<rant>
#1: You're Offtopic(-1) until the last line, lucky for you, but please link [spacegen.org] when speakng of URLs. It makes life easier for us, and it makes you look smarter and more professional, even if it is just a simple thing.
Maybe you should get your mind out of the gutter. "Man" in this context is not in refferal to "Men only", but to "mankind" or "humanity". Your so worried about wether a word has testicles involved or not you're missing other important things in our world you should worry about, like Palladium, or the DMCA. Or civil liberties? OR slave labor, starvation, or genocide in 3rd world countries?? Instead, you act as if use of words is a conspiracy to keep women on the babymaker leash, and this is the problem with the world today. OKAY, right, i'm sure that "keeping my bitch in the kitchen" was the first thing on these people's mind when naming a fictional movie about space exploration.
Might I also point out that this movie is supposed to be a direct reflection of the time period it represents, at which time no one would give a flying fuck about a name like "Man Conquers Space". In fact I'd be suprised to see a documentary style film from the sixties or earlier called something as lifelessly PC as "Humankind educates and nourishes their skill and creativity, allowing for the graceful exploratrion of Space". Ironically enough, this sounds just like a passive little housewife...hmm i thought the whole point was to get away from that?
When will all these PC retards realize that they are the only truly offensive people? The rest of us really don't care that much, and I think if the world would lighten up a bit we'd get along better and get alot more accomplished, instead of constantly worrying that we might "offend someone" because they "dont' liek what we have to say"...hey, isn't that called censorship?
</rant>
Ok now that my blunt point has been made, I'll be a bit nicer by saying this: See how worked up I get when people get worked up about things like that? This just goes aroudn and around, so why even worry? No one is going to think "Women can't explore space" due to such a title. Anyone who does is either undereducated or intoxicated, both of which are unrelated problems.
:-)
RTFA jackhole (Score:2)
Christ.
Otherwise good points, I think we shoudl get up there too. I know I'd love to go....
Re:RTFA jackhole (Score:2)
It's about a movie done up using CG and other effects, etc. to make it appear as though it where a documentary from the late 1960s, depicting all sorts of advances in space technology that are at best still science fiction to this day. Basically, a Sci-Fi movie that asks "Imagine how limited space travel is today, and how far we've come since we started. What woudl the opposite extreme have been like?"
Looks rather interesting, I'm not a big Sci-Fi fan but it sparked my interest, most likely because the concept behind the filmmaking approach (the intentionally-fictional authentic documentary style) is new to me.