Genome 189
Genome | |
author | Matt Ridley |
pages | 352 |
publisher | Harper-Collins |
rating | Excellent |
reviewer | No One You Know |
ISBN | 0060932902 |
summary | The author selects one gene from each chromosome, and uses it to explain who we are and where we came from. |
One thing Ridley discusses is how closely related humans are to many other species that seem quite unrelated. We share 99% of our genetic code with chimpanzees, which is more or less common knowledge. But we are also very similar to many other organisms, such as fruit flies. By comparing the genomes of different life forms, we can tell not only what creatures (and plants) we are related to, but historically when the genome split. Ridley explores possible explanations and ramifications of this knowledge (it's pretty hard to refute evolution with the facts he presents).
One of my favourite chapters in the book deals with self-assembly. How in God's green Earth do we develop into full-grown adults with a trillion cells, having started out as a tiny blob of a handful of cells? There are some really surprising discoveries here, such as the fact that the genes that lay out the general physical form of the body are laid out in order -- the gene for the head first, then the upper body, etc., ending with the rear. Another interesting fact is that the genes that define the front and back of a fruit fly also exist in humans, but are switched around. So the gene that defines the back of a fruit fly defines the front of a human, and vice versa. This means that at some point in our evolutionary history, one creature decided to walk on its front, and another decided to walk on its back.
Another chapter deals with why we age. Less than 50 cell divisions are required for us to grow into adults, but throughout life cell divisions are necessary for maintenance and repair. Each cell contains a complete copy of the genome; when a cell divides, it must make another copy for the new cell. However, the very beginning and end of each chromosome are not copied. In order to not lose important data, each chromosome has a long string of junk at the beginning and end. But with each cell division, a little more of the junk is lost and you get closer to cutting off the real data in the middle. In this way we've got a kind of built-in obsolescence; we are designed to live just long enough to bear and rear children.
One chapter is devoted to memory: how we create new memories and how we store them. Also discussed is the difference between instinct and learned knowledge, and why we need both. It turns out that language is a genetic thing; we have an instinctive capacity for language and we pick it up very easily as we develop. But then why is the vocabulary of a language not in our genes? Vocabulary is learned knowledge because if it weren't, it would be difficult for us to incorporate new words since they wouldn't be instinctive. Basically, as I understand it, static knowledge is often recorded in our genes (therefore becoming instinct), while dynamic knowledge must be learned.
Ridley dedicates one chapter to gene therapy and modification: how it works and the ethical concerns. I was curious as to how injecting a new or repaired gene into the cell of an organism could affect anything but that one cell. It turns out there are enzymes that will replicate the new DNA strand and go around distributing it to other cells -- a virus! Geneticists use the code from a virus that causes replication (leaving the bad stuff of course) and combine it with the DNA they want to repair or replace in an animal. They then "infect" the animal with the new code.
In short, I found Matt Ridley's "Genome" a fascinating book. The mapping of the human genome was a huge milestone in human history, and Ridley does an excellent job of using it to explain in layman's terms who and what we are. What we don't know about the genome dwarfs what we do know of course, and Ridley makes no bones about that point. But the bit that we do know just makes you sit back in awe. Ridley has a talent for translating his own enthusiasm for the subject to the written word.
You can purchase Genome from bn.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.
No wonder... (Score:3, Funny)
So would that mean that the fly's equivalent of a head is a human's equivalent of a butt? No wonder flies are so ugly.
On the same note... one wonders if this same backwards thing applies to the pointy hair boss species of the human race.
Re:No wonder... (Score:2)
And the reason why small changes in the gentic code produce such drastic changes is that the information coefficent of genetic code is high.
What may seem to a layperson as one little change here and there is actually very very big in terms of nature.
"On the same note... one wonders if this same backwards thing applies to the pointy hair boss species of the human race.
Not exactly! But its funny
Re:No wonder... (Score:1)
No, it's a different axis -- the back of the fly's head is the equivalent of the front of the human's head. (Dorsal/ventral axis, not anterior/posterior.)
Speaking _extremely_ loosely, of course. ;-)
Re:No wonder... (Score:2)
Only 50 cell divisions? (Score:1)
Re:Only 50 cell divisions? (Score:2)
Another thing is controlled apoptosis, which is cell suicide. This is very very common in development, and is necessary to get the organism to look the way it does. That's why you've got fingers instead of webs. You know the little webs at the base of the area between your digits? Those are remnants of the cells that died during your development. Many of the cells that did divide continually go through apoptosis, so they're not around in the mature organsim.
And I don't know about making flies 50% bigger, although I'd be willing to bet a lot on it's having been done (I hate working with the little buggers myself, so I don't really keep up on them) but I know for a fact that it's been done in mice and plants. Maybe not 50% bigger, but definitely bigger.
Re:Only 50 cell divisions? (Score:1)
Re:Only 50 cell divisions? (Score:1)
Re:Only 50 cell divisions? (Score:2)
then there's this story [accessexcellence.org](not that great but interesting).
Or a video [pbs.org]
or what your looking for? [wehi.edu.au]
My 23 Chromosomes (Score:1)
2. I like to spend lots of time with linux
3. I like to spend lots of time on Slashdot
4. I chase karma
5. I am witty
6. I like to drink
7. I like to smoke
8. I like to program
9. See 1.
10. I don't understand girls
11. I don't like the sun
12. I like the Matrix
13. I thrive on violent games and movies
14. I don't like fighting for real
15. I shower when I have to
16. I optimise my housework
17. I like girls, but they don't understand me
18. I do bad things to myself but not to others
19. No-one gets that
20. I want to meet aliens
21. I want them to be nice
22. I want to be alive when BattleMechs are invented.
23.???
Oh, crap, I'm a code from Mars and you have to guess the 23rd chromosome.
Re:My 23 Chromosomes (Score:1)
I will not die alone
A fascinatingly interesting look at 'us' (Score:2, Informative)
-dk
I read this two years ago (Score:2, Interesting)
Beauty (Score:1)
G.H. Hardy
This reminds me that God is a wonderfull mathematician.
Ridley (Score:2, Interesting)
I was rather surprised to come across that article in Scientific American . . . I had two classes that we used Genome in. The first was called Science and Society and we basically sat around for three hours a week discussing the issues, parties, consequences, and obligations of such topics as AI, intellectual property (Napster was in it's prime at this point), genetically engineered crops, etc etc. Was a cool class, as we had some good discussions, did some role playing (i.e. one group of students is a local town board, another is a group from Monsanto trying to bring in genetically engineered crops, and the rest of the class was town people). Was also interesting as we had a good mix of religous/scientific/somewhere in the middle people, so we had lots of good view points presented.
The second class, taught by the same professor, was on human diversity, and we used select chapters from the book to examine nature verses nurture, and to try and determine some of the reasons for the differences amongst people and how one might define what a human being is . . .
ernie
More Mark David Chapman than Holden... (Score:2)
Uhhhhh jah! That's a nice balanced way of putting it
Interesting but with substantial flaws (Score:3, Informative)
One of the highlights:
(page 267 in my text - or look up Affymetrix in your index.) The author says "The technology is already being developed, by a small Californian company called Affymetrix among others, to put a whole gemnome-full of genetidc sequences on a single silicon chip. One day we might each carry with us exactly such a chip from which the doctor's computer can read any gene the better to tailor his prescription to us." This is so mangled as to be almost hilarious. Affy IS putting DNA sequences on chips (as are several other companies) with the idea that you could look for disease markers by looking at whether or not an individual's DNA (or RNA) can pair with it (base pairing, right?). There's some interesting potential here for diagnostics and appropriate drug targeting.
Ok up to here. But THEN the author takes the idea of having your medical records on a card and totally mashes it in. Trust me, you will NOT carry in the "chip" (which is NOT a chip like you might imbed in a smart card) to your Dr's office. Stupid stupid stupid. To the best of my knowledge (I don't work there), Affy isn't working on medical record storage, which is what the author is suggesting.
The best part here is that the references are articles in the Financial Times and New Scientist (which is NOT a scientific journal, don't get confused by the name). So Ridley read the popular press without any real understanding, and then mangled things up some more on his own.
I appreciate that the author is trying to write a book on a tough subject for a general audience, but I question whether the author actually understands this tough subject himself.
I had several other spots in Genome where there were obvious flaws, but I can't put my finger on them at the moment. The feeling I got from this text when it strayed into areas I knew less well was "Wow! I didn't know that. Of course, I still don't believe that."
Re:Interesting but with substantial flaws (Score:2, Informative)
To get a more balanced view from a brilliant source, read R. C. Lewontin "The Triple Helix" and/or "Biology as Ideology".
Re:Interesting but with substantial flaws (Score:3, Interesting)
The idea here has nothing to do with medical records, the point is that these chips (not necessarily carried on you, nor "read by a computer", at least not directly) allow to quickly test for specific genetic markers, or for specific genes being up-/downregulated. Which, can tell a whole lot about how effective specific drugs will be on this individual. This is an emerging area in diagnostics.
Re:Interesting but with substantial flaws (Score:2, Informative)
The above comment is completely ridiculous, and a perfect example of troll (-1). All Ridley was trying to say is that diagnosis of a complete human genome using only a single chip will have profound medical implications. In this he is completely right. Ofcourse, he uses popular views and simple explanations of complex things, so that your uncle Billy Bob will be able to grasp them.
Having a Ph.D. and lots of years research experience in human genetics, I can say the book contains a couple of these slightly incorrect details. That doesn't stop normal people from getting the general idea. It certainly did not stop me from giving a copy to my uncle Billy Bob. Journalism has never been an exact science. I think it is a wonderful book, very rich in detail. Everyone should read it.
I'm wrong? or Ridley is? (Score:2, Interesting)
Hollywood needs this book air-dropped (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Hollywood needs this book air-dropped (Score:2)
Besides, I think that ever since Dolly, a good number of people understand, at least vaguely, some of the basic principles of how cloning is done (take DNA from a cell of the parent, put it in to an egg, and put it in a surrogate mother). Granted, few understand the complexities involved in this, like the absolute need to reprogram the genome, and the incredibly high failure rate that goes along with it, not to mention the fact that these organisms aren't clones at all, but chimeras (mitochondrial DNA).
But then, I wouldn't expect or want Hollywood to educate the general public on those things. Besides, I don't think Hollywood wants the job, nor do I think that the public wants it of Hollywood. That's the job of scientists and journalists working together.
Is that all cloning needs to overcome? (Score:4, Interesting)
IIRC, the problem with the Dolly sheep clone, genetically speaking, is that the clone aged too quickly; genetically, she was as old as her "mother", even though physiologically she was newly born.
Is this the only problem we need to overcome, then? Figure out how much "junk" DNA needs to be added to each end of the chromosome, make it up in a molecular blender, and go to it? Why, we could make humans live twenty or fifty years longer by padding their DNA before birth using the same strategy.
Re:Is that all cloning needs to overcome? (Score:1)
IIRC, the problem with the Dolly sheep clone, genetically speaking, is that the clone aged too quickly; genetically, she was as old as her "mother", even though physiologically she was newly born.
Is this the only problem we need to overcome, then? Figure out how much "junk" DNA needs to be added to each end of the chromosome, make it up in a molecular blender, and go to it? Why, we could make humans live twenty or fifty years longer by padding their DNA before birth using the same strategy.
The body already has a way to re-add the junk, for use in the germ cells (precisely to stop the dolly problem).
I think the purpose of the limit on replications is to stop cancers, etc. Bit hazy on this, but IIRC this is one of the safety measures that protects us from over ambitious cells...
Telomeres (Score:3, Insightful)
Cancerous cells don't have problems with their telomeres, which is why they can be immortal (they have a lot of other things wrong with them too, but this is important). Adding to the lengths of telomeres artificially would have to be very very very well controlled in order to avoid the risk of cancer.
I personally don't think telomeres are all that there is that's related to aging anyhow. Cell death simply doesn't explain everything that happens to a person in their old age, the same way simple cell division doesn't explain how you can get a full organism from a single cell. Aging is a process, and allowing your cells to replicate a another 10 or 20 cycles isn't going to stop that process entirely. This is all my own personal (and somewhat informed) opinion, but I think if people do start to add extra length to their telomeres, they're going to find that it's not the fountain of youth at all.
Re:Telomeres (Score:2)
Re:Telomeres (Score:2)
I'd also be very surprised if telomeres really affected the function of cells like T cells, because they don't replicate, but are born of precursor cells in the bone marrow. If these precursors don't have functioning telomerase, then I guess they'd be affected over time and that's the right thing to look at, but if there is functional telomerase to repair the precursors after division, then there would be something else, some kind of network affect, which is not the least bit implausible given the complexity of immune communication. Another fun thing to wonder about is whether dendritic cells have telomere degredation, as that would definitely affect things. I don't know, I'm just thinking out loud here, but you've given me something fun to think about.
I really loved this book (Score:1)
Great book (Score:1, Informative)
Easy to pick up and read (I was so caught up in the book, I ended up finishing it completely on a recent 2-hour business flight to Paris) and full of great wit and excellent observations, I don't think any regular
Feministic book! (Score:1)
So women have 23 different chromosomes (all paired), while men have 24 (22 paired, one X, one Y).
So if the book only covers 23 chromosomes, it covers exactly the number of different chromosomes women have, but leaves out one chromosome men have. Therefore I conclude it must be a feministic book.
Re:Feministic book! (Score:2)
Ridely's great (Score:2)
-c
genome and kede (Score:1)
hahahah, that is funny. Someone mod Timothy up as +1 Funny, please.
Other recommended books by Matt Ridley (Score:2, Informative)
As for "Genome" - I liked it, but since I had read a few pop sci books about genetics before it, I didn't learn many new things. Still, I don't regret buying it.
If I had to choose between the tree books, I would pick "The Red Queen". I bought Dawkins' "The Selfish Gene" and Ridley's "The Red Queen" on the same day, and I couldn't put down either of them. Recommended, but YMMV.
Not very new (Score:1)
I thought the premise of the book was great but it dragged on a little bit (quite a bit actually) in the last few chapters where his arguments are not very clear.
Overall, if you don't know anything about genes (realisticaly speaking) this is a good book, at least read the first three quarters.
What does "99% similar" mean? (Score:2)
Another claim I've often heard is that the genetic differences between individuals of the same race are greater than the genetic differences between races. Does this claim have any statistical meaning? How do you find a typical genome for a race, especially since racial categories are so fuzzy?
I'd be grateful if someone whose knowledge of genomics extends beyond reading The Selfish Gene could shed some light on these questions. :)
Re:What does "99% similar" mean? (Score:1)
L. L. Cavalli-Sforza's Genes, People and Languages [amazon.com] is a good, short and accessible introduction into the modern line of thinking in population genetics. If you're really into it, there's also The History and Geography of Human Genes [amazon.com] by the same author, but at 1088 pages full of formulas and diagrams, this is not exactly what I'd call light reading. 8-)
Re:What does "99% similar" mean? (Score:1)
Re:What does "99% similar" mean? (Score:3, Interesting)
I've often heard the claim that humans share x% of their DNA with another species... but what does this actually mean? First, how do you define the "typical" human (or chimp, or banana) genome?
The 98/99% similarity figure is pretty widely quoted, but is at best a handwaving estimate meaning little more than "really really similar". It actually does come out of early genome analysis work, but the figure is pretty rough.
I don't know what your level of familiarity with genetics is, but you're likely aware that DNA is a double-strand and both strands can be unwound and used as a template to generate a copy of their opposite number.
Similarly, two single-stranded DNA molecules which are placed in solution with one another under the right conditions will "anneal" together to form a double-helix again, provided that their base sequences are complementary.
The ease with which they do this is a measure of how similar their sequences are.
And that is the basis of the 98% figure. Put human and chimp DNA together, melt the strands apart (just by heating) and then measure the rate at which they anneal to one another to get a measure of their similarity. Clearly I'm simplifying the process here, but that's the general idea.
Of course this early primitive work has been strongly supported by the large number of actual gene sequences available now for chimp and human, by which we can get a direct view of how similar they are.
Re:What does "99% similar" mean? (Score:2)
Second, how do you compare "our typical genome" with "the typical chimp genome", given that (1) the genomes are different sizes and (2) as you pointed out, genes for the same protein may appear in different places on the two genomes?
I can imagine a method in which you sequence each genome from start to finish, making a list of the proteins described by each. You then find out what proportion of the proteins described somewhere in the human genome are also described somewhere in the chimp genome, and this gives you your figure of 99 percent. But it's a rather meaningless figure: it doesn't say anything about the physical differences between chimps and humans. All it tells us is the chemical similarity between the inside of a human stem cell and the inside of a chimp stem cell. You might as well say "humans and chimps share 99.99% of their chemical elements" or "humans and chimps share 100% of their physical laws".
Re:What does "99% similar" mean? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:What does "99% similar" mean? (Score:2)
I am missing a few (Score:3, Funny)
Also, I am missing the OOP gene. I don't get why people think OOP is so great. It is inferior to good procedural/relational modeling and "noun managment" IMO. GOF is hard-wired indexes to me, primative. (Either that, OOP fans lack a procedural/relational gene.)(oop.ismad.com)
Does this book cover... (Score:2)
Re:Refuting Evolution (Score:2, Interesting)
There's nothing in my faith or bible that tells me to throw logic to the window.
Re:Refuting Evolution (Score:5, Informative)
Full disclosure: I consider myself a deeply religious person. I attend church twice a week, read the Bible, and send my children to a private religious school (at great expense).
However, I find Creationism utter nonsense. I do believe that God created man, but through the process of evolution. The evidence for evolution is so utterly overwhelming that Christians are left with two alternatives:
Whenever this subject comes up with the faithful, I try to change minds gently, and remember a quote (from whom I don't remember):
"A frantic orthodoxy is not rooted in faith, but in doubt."
Re:Refuting Evolution (Score:2)
Re:Refuting Evolution (Score:1)
Re:Refuting Evolution (Score:1)
It's surprising how many people will say with a straight face that fossils of dinosaurs and other creatures were merely planted there by Satan to cause people to be skeptical of a literal interpretation of the first few verses of the Bible. The same goes for the carbon-14 dating of rocks and fossils that puts the age of the earth at well over 6,000 years. Apparently the Prince of Darkness will do anything and everything (including bending the Creator's own universal laws) to fool all those ungodly, Reason-worshipping humanists.
Re:Refuting Evolution (Score:2)
Problems in C14 dating don't make the method wrong, they make the implementation in certain aspects wrong. That's like declaring that Wien's model of the blackbody curve is wrong in the exponential tail simply because it gets the early part wrong. C14 is very accurate if you know when the carbon exchange stopped, and that'll put the age of certain things very very old.
Most of us do the research. The problem is with people who claim that a method is flawed because they found one example where it (supposedly) doesn't work. Overwhelming evidence that supports it is enough to convince logical people.
Re:Refuting Evolution (Score:3, Informative)
1: Varying C-14 levels in the atmosphere over time (sunspots)
2: Point at which carbon-exchange ended in the object.
The first one is not that severe, honestly, and the second only applies to nonliving things. For living things we can pretty accurately assume that carbon exchange ended when it died.
Radiometric dating is very accurate if you know the ambient level throughout the period that isotope exchange was occuring, and then when the isotope exchange stopped. If you're off significantly on either one of those, you could have problems. But that's what cross-calibration is for.
Re:Refuting Evolution (Score:2)
Re:Refuting Evolution (Score:2)
(2): By ambient level, I meen "initial ratio" of C12 to C14. You need to know this. Without it, you have no idea about anything. So C14 dating assumes that the C14 level in the atmosphere was constant over time, and the crosscalibration indicates that assumption is mostly correct.
Re:Refuting Evolution (Score:2)
Anyway, my point was that since C14's decay product (nitrogen) is also commonly found in things that have carbon in them, you can't simply look at the ratio of decay product to remaining parent element to determine the date. However, if C14's decay product was (let's say) the mysterious N13.5 (which is not normally found in organisms), you could simply measure the proportion of N13.5 to C14, and you wouldn't need any calibration value at all.
To extend the example... you find an organism that has 0.5g of C14 and 0.5g of N13.5 in it. Without any other info, you would be able to tell that the organism had died one C14 half-life ago (5730 years). Now, the problem in real life is that C14 decays into N14, so there's no way to tell whether the N14 in the organism was there to begin with, or whether it is the result of C14 decay, which is why you need cross-calibration for C14 dating. But for heavier elements that decay into things that aren't normally found in living organisms, you only need to know the ratio of daughter products to the parent product. Right?
Re:Refuting Evolution (Score:2, Informative)
Re: (Score:1)
Re:Refuting Evolution (Score:2)
People who believe in literal creationism (that is, literal "English" creationism - literally the process that is described in the English translation of the Bible) are taking explanations way out of context.
They should also go to Egypt and look for bread (made of grain) to fall from heaven on their heads (rather than manna, which is real), and far more amusingly, only forgive each other 490 times. After that, screw you, jackass.
The problem is that we are far, far removed from the people who read the original version of the Bible. We don't know the colloquialisms. Even scholars don't know. Even the original versions of the Bible (Hebrew) may be very far off from the true original, because we simply do not have the colloquial context. (For example: we use the word "heart" in multiple contexts, and it's difficult to discern which version we mean. There's no reason to believe that they didn't have similar concepts as well.)
I honestly wonder when people start supporting creationism. I really want one of them to explain to me what happened. What do they REALLY think happened? Genesis's account is vague - clear it up. Exactly how did God separate the Earth from the heavens? Basically, if you keep saying "How?" "How?" "How?" to someone espousing creationism, you'll get one of two answers. "He just did" or "I don't know." The response to the first is "that's not an answer", and the response to the second is "That's what I'm trying to figure out."
Here's the thing: if you can't reconcile Genesis with science in your head, you're not thinking enough. It's easy - it really is. All science does is stick a bunch of answers where Genesis is vague.
Religions answers "Who". Science answers "How". Don't people ever take journalism classes?
Re:Refuting Evolution (Score:2)
You're talking about specifics of evolution (which is scientific theory) rather than the evolution mindset (which is a mindset). Debate the specifics of evolution (theory) and you'll get dogmatic response, unless you go after something which is still an open question, from the community's point of view. You can't really debate a mindset, though.
And astronomy/physics is extremely dogmatic! All science is. Try offering an alternative explanation other than the Big Bang, and we'll look at you like you're crazy (because you probably are - you can SEE the Big Bang if you look at the sky in microwave). You're talking about "offering an alternative explanation for something that was considered over and done with." In any science, you'll get a sharp response in that area. The other end, where you're talking about non-constancy of physical constants, that's ALWAYS been considered an open possibility. You can find papers on that back over a hundred years.
Doubt me on the dogmatic nature of astronomy and physics? Look for papers on alternative answers to the Higgs boson, and see if you find papers which reference them and support them. You won't. Even though the Higgs boson hasn't been found, and there're still possibilities if it can't be found, they aren't being looked at.
Re:Refuting Evolution (Score:2)
Aliens genetically constructed the earth as their terrarium: that falls under "creationism" - instantaneous creation of Earth at some point in time in the past (or relatively instantaneous...).
Universe laid by a giant bird: Falls out of the scope of the theories, as the theories describe Earth's creation. Rewriting "Earth laid by a giant bird." Falls under "creationism" - instantaneous creation of Earth.
If you define evolution and creationism as I did, they're opposites of each other. If Earth wasn't created instantaneously at some point, it must've been created over some period in time. Likewise, if the Earth wasn't created over a period in time, it must've been created instantaneously. I didn't give you a "how". I gave you a "when".
The problem of magnitude (Score:2)
There is no faith involved and very little randomness. Statistics is a harsh mistress. Given enough time anything that can happen, will happen. People will cross steel walls. Monkeys will write Hamlet. Pigs will fly.
When you consider the magnitude of the time involved, it is absolutely not surprising that evolution took place. It is also not surprinsing that the brain of the short-lived creatures developed under this evolutionary process is utterly unprepared to deal with the quantities involved. Hence some of us will always find it "impossible".
Re:The problem of magnitude (Score:1)
Even if it did tend toward order, we are still left with the problem of origination. Where did the mass of whatever come from that started the whole thing off?
Entropy (Score:2)
Entropy can not apply to small subsets of the closed system. In the case of evolution, the System is the whole Universe, as cosmological events can and do affect us everyday (and this discussion assumes we can call this mess we are "order").
The final origin does not need to enter this discussion right now, because while local evolution was in some way "caused" by the Big Bang, the facts are so far apart in time and space that it would be the same as trying to analyse the human digestion in terms of the atoms composing the granparents of the human in question (in other words, I am discussing evolution, not the ultimate possibility of the existence of an extra-physical cause somewhere in the far past).
Re:Entropy (Score:2, Interesting)
I do realize that entropy cannot apply to a subset of the closed system - my question was more related to whether or not the Universe can be determined to be a closed system.
Since people seem to like Hawking, here's a quote from him...
reference, and a good lecture here. [hawking.org.uk]
Re: (Score:1)
Chaos (Score:2)
But you point to the right direction. Entropy cannot be analised locally. The presence or absence of Earth and its warring primates means nothing in the cosmological scale.
Big Bang? (Score:2)
We don't know why it would explode into what we see. No scientist ever claimed to know, either. It may have been a god, it may have been some factor we can't know, it may be that things are just thus. But from a second after the explosion onwards to now we have a jolly good working picture.
Re:Entropy (Score:1)
As the universe so long ago was virtually a void, with no mass, matter, or movement, it does stand to reason that it was more ordered.
As opposed to the wildly expanding, colliding, burning, birthing, and dying that it's doing now...
Next time you want to dispute somebodys statement, TRY to take it in the meaning the author implied (not the meaning in your mind) Aside from that, i'm not posting my opinion because it's almost sure to start a flame war.
Re:Entropy (Score:2)
This tells us one of two things.
1) He forced a square peg through a round hole to make the darn formula fit.
2) Or the hole was square to start with, even though we all believed that it was round.
Now going on two, imagine the following. There is no beginning and there is no ending. In other words when we ask where did it all start, it started nowhere and everywhere. Ok you still say but that still had to have a starting point. But the answer is no, there is no start and no end. What we perceive as time is not time. Just a temporary existance before we disappear again.
Re:The problem of magnitude (Score:2)
Re:The problem of magnitude (Score:1)
This assumes that one of the factors required for the "Monkeys to write Hamlet," is time, and bygod a lot of it.
Where I differ with your conclusion is that I don't think time is ever causal. Time is like a passive fabric. It doesn't "cause" anything to happen, it is just a medium that contains events of occurance. My point is that although time will most certainly dictate "how" events occur (see General Theory of Relativity), it can't influence "why" they occur.
Necessary conditions and causal factors (Score:2)
What I mean is that given an evolutionary quantity of time, all factors will eventually have the opportunity to combine themselves in the ways necessary for evolution to occur, no matter how "improbable" the requested configuration is.
Except for a little fact (Score:2)
I respectfully agree, sir (Score:2)
But even punctuated equilibrium will usually require time to occur (in the same way winning in the lotery may require one, many or an infinite number of trials). So my insistence that time should be important.
Anyway, you probably know I was not exactly arguing against Gould. As I said elsewhere, a scientific theory is as good as the amount of undertanding it gives us about the past, present and future state of world. If a present theory is wrong no serious scientist should never hesitate to adapt, rework or throw it away, as the case may be.
Guessed? (Score:2)
The "right" age of the Universe is as subjected to change as everything else in science. And when I say everything I mean everything. No principle, no equation, no inference is free from facing the hard evidence.
That is why scientists do not use expressions like "never make" and "never will".
As for your specific claim, there are so many other factors involved in making a monkey into a man that I believe you should study the "evil" scientific texts involved before we can discuss this matters in a meaninful way.
Nice try (Score:2)
But also notice that typing monkeys and evolving molecules organisms are completely different phenomenon. Your final jump from "proving" you would need 72 times the age of the Universe for a monkey to type a string to concluding that evolution could not have happened is amusing but false and logically wrong. Unless of course you can come with exact figures on the possibilities involved in eveolving from nothing to human (and, naturally, have this figures peer-reviewed and accepted by the scientific community).
Re:Refuting Evolution (Score:1)
Re:Refuting Evolution (Score:1)
Maybe it is fun to discuss these things. Bait Away.
Re:Refuting Evolution (Score:1)
Throw the second law of thermodynamics together with the law of conservation of energy, and I'm thinking that the leap of faith that it takes to believe that random chance "created" the earth is far greater than the leap of faith it takes me to believe that someone gave it a push.
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Re:Refuting Evolution (Score:1)
The reason I put "someone" in there rather than "something" is that I like most humans who describe "God" tend to anthropomorphosize Him/Her/whatever. You could just as easily substitute "God" for "someone" in the above quote. The Bible tends to refer to God as "I Am" meaning that God exists outside of the constraints of time or that He has always existed. And "Marklar" is clearly a set of people, a language, and almost the entire contents of that language and not a substitute for the word "God". Go back and study Southpark some more!
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Re:Refuting Evolution (Score:1)
Here's where it gets interesting. Does the way you percieve things or the way you want them to be affect in any way the actuality of that thing? Basically what we're discussing here is the nature of our baseline - Absolute Truth if you will. It follows along the lines of "I believe that Heaven exists, so for me it does" or "I believe that there is no Hell so there isn't". Now, don't get me wrong - I'm not arguing for or against the existance of Heaven or Hell (personally I believe in both, but for the purposes of discussion, that is immaterial) - I am, however, arguing that regardless of what you believe, or how you want to define them, they are (or are not) what they are.
I know the following is a rediculous example, but it's the best I can come up with while typing with one hand and eating a sandwich with the other while writing code on the other computer, so bear with me
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Re:Refuting Evolution (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1)
Re:Refuting Evolution (Score:1)
I am fully aware that I can't prove the existance of God any more than someone else can disprove it. However, I also know that the downside risk of my perspective is substantially smaller than the downside risk of the people who don't share it. That said, "fire insurance" is a pretty bad reason to adopt a world view...
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Re:Refuting Evolution (Score:1)
One can only wonder - if I'm color blind, will the fires of Hell be orange, red, or crimson?
Re:Refuting Evolution (Score:1)
Bullet two: Turkey on a roll with mustard and lettuce.
Bullet three: You are deaf and blind, and therefore cannot determine where the sidewalk ends and the street begins. In addition, your seeing eye chimpanzee ran off and began humping a parked car.
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Re:Refuting Evolution (Score:1)
Re:Refuting Evolution (Score:2)
If you put an unlimited number of all the pieces of an airplane in an unlimited number of big piles, and let an unlimited number of airplanes sweep through them, and then sweep away the piles that don't look like you want them to look like - repeat ad nauseum, and in the limit of infinite repetitions, you'll get an identical airplane, and then no, you won't be able to tell them apart. The problem is that you're looking at an end product and saying "That must be designed." I could look at a pile of dirt, study it for years, and say "that must be designed" and still be wrong. See also Cydonia on Mars.
Human timescales differ from universal timescales. Evolution is a very messy process, and produces a lot of crap. People born with gills, for instance. But, hey, I'm not exactly one to criticize: I haven't built any universes lately.
Re:Refuting Evolution (Score:1)
They are different... Creationism: Defining God's joke on Mankind. Making Man think that Evolution is true.
Relign of century have been trying to prove the bible stories as true. Looking at DNA is one more method to of proof.
Evolution was a theory based prior on theories and examples, from "why are sea shells on top of mountians?" to "why do men look different, if all are created in God's image".
We know the mountains are getting taller as the crust of earth slowly shifts and press ridges form. We know that this rising is slow, so getting a sea bed of sea shells 7,000+ feet into air will take a LONG LONG time.
We find in the DNA that all men are (~) the same. DNA drifts slow over time as well - so at one time we were all in the same image.
So Evolution and Creationism support each other if you remove the TIME issue.
Now if the world was created some 5k years ago, then all the information showing it was longer, was great set dressing - hence the JOKE.
Now if world's clock is ALOT longer, then Creationism shows a simplified view of the Evolution making it easier to understand and giving man a referance guide to understand world around them - hence "fire side story".
Remember the bible was written by men, with God's help. So why not help his children unstand and learn about the world around them?
Re:GOD (Score:1)
Actually life is pretty closed source because genetic code is really BINARY machine code that is executed within the cell's nucleus and mitochondria. Genetic research actually revolves a lot around reverse engineering the binaries back to a human-readable form, and the API (protein behavior and interaction) is pretty badly documented too.
Re:GOD (Score:2, Funny)
Making a human with Fruit Fly DNA? Now that's OO design!
Re:GOD (Score:1)
Technically, DNA would be closer to source code than binary. It's copied to mRNA, then big chunks of the mRNA sequence are removed (comments, perhaps?). The mRNA is then processed into proteins that either execute, or are used as parts of other executables (shared libraries!)
Re:GOD (Score:1)
Re:Have you ever been sodimized? (Score:1)
Trust me, it's a lot worse.