When Hurricanes Collide

FortKnox writes: "The two Jovians on the planet Jupiter have been 'arguing' for a while, and are about to collide. The article is descriptive and explains what happened the last time something like this happened, plus pictures. Time to get out your telescopes..."

What On Earth?

[ThOr101]

I wonder if anything like this has ever happened on earth, and if it happening there, is at all similar to it happening here.

Re:What On Earth?

[FortKnox]

Jovians don't appear on earth, IIRC.
Jovians are similar to hurricanes, but aren't the same. Not to mention that the 'smaller' Jovian is about the size of the earth, and its colliding with an ENORMOUS one (A *lot* bigger than it).
This has happened before on Jupitor (read the article), but I dunno about earth...
I guess the closest thing to this on earth would be that 'the perfect storm' movie. Isn't that about large storms colliding (and based on a true story)?

game of life

[Perdo]

Like when You introduce a small spinner to a large stable pattern in the game of life, the white spot could destroy the red spot. This interaction is governed by chaos theory, and as such, any predictions about the end result are useless. Better to lay odds than make blanket predictions. Clay Sherrod's lack of objectivity or lack of knowledge of the laws of physics marks him as an amateur. Science by press release. Perhaps that is why he is in Arkansas and not Tucson, Arizona.

This post is mean spirited and might be considered a flame. But if the sientific community has nothing but fawning press, how is sience to advance? Breathy exclamations about perpetual motion energy sources and cloned human kidneys are not good science. They are modern day snake oil salesmen taking reaserch dollars away from real science.

If the conventional press will not place a critical eye on psuedo science, perhaps we should. Perhaps we are the only ones who can.

Re:game of life

[CheshireCatCO]

For starters, you might want to be aware that there are several top-of-their-fields planetary scientists in Arkansas right now. So trying to blast a guy about living there, vs. in Tucson, AZ, is silly.

What's even weirder for me is that I don't see his "lack of objectivity." He made a prediction. No, he didn't give odds. You'd need hundreds of simulations to lay odds. I don't know that anyone has those simulations in place right now, let alone an observer. So he made a reasonable prediction based on physics (bigger storm should well be expected to swollow the smaller one, at least at first examination) and previous observations. That's fine science reporting by me.

Trying to tout Chaos theory as the be-all and end-all and claiming that no one should be allowed to make predictions about things because Choas theory exists is some of the worst sophistry. Chaos theory has its uses, but don't think it negates all other ways of looking at the universe.

Re:game of life

[Perdo]

I don't know that anyone has those simulations in place right now, let alone an observer.

From the next story (conveniently posted after your silly retort)

College Park, MD (January 30, 2002) Predicting the size, location, and timing of natural hazards is virtually impossible, but now, earth scientists are able to forecast hurricanes, floods, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, wildfires, and landslides using fractals.

Re:game of life

[CheshireCatCO]

Let's see... The antecedent to "those" is pretty clearly "simulations of Jovian storms." Earth-based predictions are not directly applicable to Jupiter: the whole atmospheric structure is different, as is the heating, the rotation, the cloud chemistry... so can you find a case of someone having really good simulations of specific features of Jupiter interacting? Last time I attended a Jupiter meeting (June, 2001), they didn't seem to be able to explain the Great Red Spot infull.

Earth models don't cut it for predicting Jovian storms.

Area Resident, "I'm Riding It Out"

[alacqua]

Rueters is reporting that several residents of the trailer park in the area where the storms are expected to collide are ignoring warnings from the Jovian authorities. "I rode out the storm in aught-5 and I'm riding it out again. Those weather reporters are never right anyway." said one area resident. "Even that Shoefixer-Levi's comet thing was just a ploy to get me to leave my house. I've gone to the hypermarket and stocked up on bread, milk, water, and eggs. What do I have to worry about?..."

I hate imprecise science reporting...

[Linux_ho]

Both are said to operate similarly to hurricanes on Earth, except that they rotate in the opposite direction compared with terrestrial storms.

Winds in terrestrial hurricanes normally rotate counterclockwise in the northern hemisphere and clockwise in the southern hemisphere because of the Coriolis effect.

So... in an attempt to translate the above quoted statement into something with a hint of precision, I'm going to guess that the Jovian storms are probably anticyclonic (high pressure systems, unlike terrestrial hurricanes), which would reverse the rotational direction of the storm.

Re:I hate imprecise science reporting...

[CheshireCatCO]

You are correct, sir. (I understood the statment clearly, but, then, I knew above Jovian storms before I read that article.)

Re:I hate imprecise science reporting...

[jellisky]

Well, you have to be careful about what you mean by high and low pressure systems, though. Near the surface (on a constant z surface), hurricanes have a lower pressure than the surrounding atmosphere. But near the tropopause, hurricanes tend to have a higher pressure than the surrounding atmosphere. That's all due to the fact that hurricanes are warm-core systems. Take a look at this FAQ on terrestrial hurricanes [noaa.gov]...

As for the Jovian storms, I'm not aware of the dynamics involved. Not my specialty... but it definitely sounds QUITE interesting.

-Jellisky

Re:I hate imprecise science reporting...

[Linux_ho]

Well, you have to be careful about what you mean by high and low pressure systems, though.

Hurricanes are generally referred to as low-pressure systems. The link you referred to defines hurricanes as follows:

The terms "hurricane" and "typhoon" are regionally specific names for a strong "tropical cyclone". A tropical cyclone is the generic term for a non-frontal synoptic scale low-pressure system over tropical or sub-tropical waters with organized convection (i.e. thunderstorm activity) and definite cyclonic surface wind circulation (Holland 1993).

Yes, but...

[jellisky]

... the point I was making there (rather badly, unfortunately) was that if you believe that Jupiter is fully a gas giant, what does one consider the "ground" at which to call it a "low-pressure" system? Hurricanes are low-pressure systems in that, at the surface, their pressure is lower than their surroundings. But, one could also classify storms by their structure in the upper levels, in which case, hurricanes could be classified as high-pressure systems.

It's all a matter of reference frames. On Earth, it's common to use sea level or the surface as a reference state. But on Jupiter, what do you call the "surface"? So, that's why I expressed a bit of caution in calling the Jovian storms high or low pressure systems since no one has defined the reference state.

That brings me to a further point, in that the vertical structure of a vortex is also important, especially when you you can only "see" part of it. Just because a vortex is spinning one way where you can see it doesn't imply that it's spinning that way throughout its vertical structure. So, like I said, I'm not an expert in the Jovian systems (even though I'm nearly a Terran vortex expert... at least as much as one who studies them for his job can be, at least), so I can make no claims about their vertical structures or what kind of circulations occur in them.

Hopefully that clarifies my point.

-Jellisky

planetary stupidity

[a baker street irreg]

"The two Jovians on the planet Jupiter have been 'arguing' for a while, and are about to collide."

Have you any idea what a Jovian is? Let me enlighten you: it is a planet (in particular a gas giant!) not some violent weather system. Please get your facts straight.