The Forever War 161
| The Forever War | |
| author | Joe Haldeman |
| pages | 254 |
| publisher | Avon Books |
| rating | 9 |
| reviewer | mfarah |
| ISBN | 0380708213 |
| summary | A short but good military SF novel. |
The latest book I've taken out of my "read pending" queue is The Forever War, by Joe Haldeman. Its credits include the Nebula Award in 1975 and the Hugo Award in 1976, and being considered one of the classics of the genre.
This is a fairly short science-fiction novel (250 pages in my mass-market paperback copy), dealing with the main character William Mandela, a young physics student drafted into the UN-controlled space army when war breaks out against the Taurans, an alien species we at first know nothing about (I'll purposefully avoid getting into a detailed discussion of the plot).
The novel is told to us from Mandela's viewpoint; Mandela narrates everything that happens in a very easy to read colloquial style, with an exquisite attention to details; the short chapters the book is divided in makes it a breeze to read -- a weekend in my case (and I'm no fast reader).
The Mandela character is well constructed, and his account reads like a friend telling you the story of his life. There are other characters that barely appear in the novel, yet they also feel properly written. The plot is simple and direct, with just a couple of nasty turns at key points in the story (you'll know them when you see them).
This description may remind some people of Heinlein's Starship Troopers: young guy (Mandela/Rico) enters the army, goes through a training period, goes to war with an unknown species, kicks butt and all that. Actually, that superficial description is where the resemblance stops: the way Mandela and John Rico get into the army is distinct, the training period is quite different, the aliens have nothing in common; both novels focus mainly on different stuff, and the few common themes are treated differently. If you expect this to be a Starship Troopers clone, you'll be surprised.
Surprisingly, the treatment of science isn't -- very detailed. There is enough of it to dismiss claims of this being a war novel simply translated into a SF setting (even if the author's acknowledged that the novel deals with his experiences in the Vietnam war), but hard-SF zealots might be disappointed.
All in all, this was a very enjoyable read, and I highly recommend it. I've voted 9 for this novel in the Top100SF.
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Forever War==Good, sequels==Suck. (Score:2, Insightful)
Chris DiBona
Re:Forever War==Good, sequels==Suck. (Score:2)
With a name like Forever War, you were expecting an O'Henry story?
It's genius (Score:5, Interesting)
I also heartily recommend Haldeman's other "Forever" books: Forever Peace and Forever Free. They're not quite sequels (well, Forever Free is but it's set much later), but they give you the same sort of fantastic experience as The Forever War.
Some of my top sci fi picks of all time. They're on my shelf next to Ender's Game.
Re:It's genius (Score:5, Informative)
Check Mr.Haldeman's website [earthlink.net] yourself.
This is the book that brought me into science fiction. By far, I consider this the best book I've read (over Ender's Game, and Starship Troopers).
The times are a bit off, if you read the unabridged version (it takes place in the 90s as I recall), but the way he deals with the thousands of years that go by is just ingenious!
Re:It's genius (Score:2)
Yes, it's about Vietnam. No, Haldeman wrote the book while he was working on his Masters of Fine Arts degree at the University of Iowa Writer's Workshop. Every Writer's Workshop attendee must write a major work as their MFA thesis. Forever War was Haldeman's thesis.
I know this for a fact because my high school journalism teacher took a SF writing course with Haldeman, and I got to hear almost daily secondhand stories about Haldeman and the notorious "SFLIS" group.
There is a legend that Haldeman's book was not accepted for his MFA degree until it won the Hugo, and then the Writer's Workshop was forced to reevaluate after the Hugo award. I once wrote about this on Usenet, dismissing this as impossible. I actually got an email from Haldeman the next day, he said he got his MFA well before the Hugo award. Interesting.
Haldeman doesn't get it -- minor spoiler (Score:2)
That's a funky organization scheme... (Score:3, Funny)
-sk
Re:That's a funky organization scheme... (Score:1)
Of course, with me "most recently read" translates to "under the bed".
Re:That's a funky organization scheme... (Score:1)
Re:That's a funky organization scheme... (Score:1)
He derives from good stuff too. (Score:2)
I'd argue Heinlein was exploring some ideas, as opposed to "prescribing how things ought to be," so it's perfectly fair for Haldeman to have explored a different direction, and he did it well, generating an interesting read.
I'm afraid I don't heartily recommend the later books; if "Forever War" derived some greatness from deriving from some neat ideas, well, the later ones didn't.
Forever Peace started well enough, but it was really irritating when it headed into the same sort of giant military conspiracy theory "MacGuffin" that turned the movie Outbreak from good to very bad.
Lord of the Rings did "conspiracy" much better by almost not showing us the malevolence of Sauron...
I'd put Forever War on the "good shelf," but dunno about the others...
OT: jingoism and the Starship Troopers movie (Score:1)
Re:He derives from good stuff too. (Score:1)
I do agree with you about "Forever Peace" being a weak follow-up. "Forever War" is strong enough to stand on its own without any sequels.
One of My Favorites (Score:4, Interesting)
Because they travelled at the speed of light, a tour that lasted a year could mean that hundreds of years had passed back on Earth. The accepted norms and values of society had changed remarkably, and the soldiers had to try to adapt.
I suppose this alienation parallels the experience of Vietnam veterans, as Haldeman openly mentions that the book is really about Vietnam.
The Forever Peace [amazon.com], which has nothing to do with the Forever War, but is none-the-less a great book.
Re:One of My Favorites...Well, OK, BUT..... (Score:3, Insightful)
And that was the essence of what the book was about.....
I read the book the week it was published (still have that copy), I was very impressed with Haldeman's treatment of the cultural and psychological aspects of isolation and alientation on soldiers as time passed in their societies "back home".
And from a craft point of view, I still think that it is Haldeman's best book.
However, "Forever War", for me, fairly light on the "s" portion of s/f.
Also, any comparison to Starship Troopers (the book), is merely superficial resemblance.
Johnny Rico, in ST, is the device Heinlein uses to show us the effects of a "limitless war" upon both people and societies, when confronted with an enemy so inhuman that they are merely "Bugs" (a device Scott Card has also used and improved upon in his "Enders" series).....
However, in FW, William Mandela IS the story. His POV dominates the entire book (as was Haldeman's intention).
We never see a maturation curve on Johnny Rico. Sure, he gets older and wiser and tougher as his combat time accumulates, but we don't get to see into his mind the way we do with William Mandela.
Haldeman does a great job with the soldier's POV and his own personal experiences in "Nam ring out nicely in the book, BUT...
"Forever War" is a book that looks within and Starship Troopers is a book that looks without....
s/f has ALWAYS had a wide range of treatment of science and technology, from the wild-but-nonscientific "raygun and mind control" pennings of Doc Smith and his "Lensmen" series to the scientifically carefully crafted work of Charles Sheffield.
Forever War is stong on the story and characters and the resulting insights, but if you are expecting some "kick ass" or unique treatment of relativistic effects, you'll be somewhat disappointed, not much science is being committed.
YMMV
....
Re:One of My Favorites...Well, OK, BUT..... (Score:3, Interesting)
>
> Johnny Rico, in ST, is the device Heinlein uses to show us the effects of a "limitless war" upon both people and societies, when
> confronted with an enemy so inhuman that they are merely "Bugs" (a device Scott Card has also used and improved upon in
> his "Enders" series).....
> However, in FW, William Mandela IS the story. His POV dominates the entire book (as was Haldeman's intention).
I think you miss an important point here that makes the contrast between the two books both deep & insightful: Heinlein was an officer, & Haldeman was a grunt.
My grandfather served in the First World War in the American Expeditionary Force, where he was injured by mustard gas. According to my mother, afterwards he read a book or two, & complained that these books DIDN'T describe the war he was in. I'm sure at some point Haldeman read Heinlein's book, & not only came to the same conclusion, but found the inspiration to write his own book.
Geoff
P.S. Does anyone else remember the board game ``Warp Wars" from the late 1970's? The creator admitted he was inspired in his time-dilation mechanics by Haldeman's novel.
Re:One of My Favorites...Well, OK, BUT..... (Score:1)
For a more modern version of this, see John Ringo's A Hymn Before Battle and Gust Front. John Ringo was a Sargeant in the 82nd Airborne, so he knows his stuff, and it's a damned good read.
The Crazy Finn
Re:One of My Favorites...Well, OK, BUT..... (Score:1)
He was accepted to the Naval Academy, but was discharged (in his sophmore year iirc)for medical reasons (a blown out knee), while Haldeman was an infantryman in Viet Nam.
Heinlein tried to sign up during WWII, but was refused, again, on medical grounds.
Heinlein saw military service as a glorious thing to aspire to, a dream he couldn't realize, whereas, Haldeman had the perspective of someone who actually saw combat from the grunt's eye view.
ST the movie was driven by Verhoeven's deliberate misstatement of what Heinlein wrote...
Heinlein's Service Record (Score:2)
>
> He was accepted to the Naval Academy, but was discharged (in his sophmore year iirc)for medical reasons (a blown out
> knee), while Haldeman was an infantryman in Viet Nam.
>
> Heinlein tried to sign up during WWII, but was refused, again, on medical grounds.
In response to my earlier statement, I've read one person who stated he was not an officer, one who stated he was, & one who stated he was a ``sapper", a rank not usually found in the US military. To settle this difference in opion, I pulled out my copy of L. Sprague de Camp's _Science Fiction Handbook_, which I have found to be an invaluable reference for this genre in the late 1930's & 1940's period, when he was a participant & knew almost all fo the major figures.
de Camp wrote:
``Robert Anston Heinlein was born in Missouri in 1907, was reared in Kansas City, Mo., and graduated from the US Naval Academy in 1929. He served with the fleet but was retired for physical disability in 1934. He tried silver-mining in Colorado, professional politics in California, and finally writing. When he sold ``Life Line" to _Astounding_ in 1939 his thought (like that of many other beginning writers misled by initial success) was, why hasn't somebody told me about this? It beats working! During the war he worked as a civilian engineer in the U. S. Navy, along with Asimov and me [de Camp], but returned to writing afterwards."
So my comments about his being an officer were correct. (Amazing, considering my memory.) And this provided him a different viewpoint from Haldeman, whose attitudes about war are very clear in his numerous novels.
Geoff
Re:One of My Favorites...Well, OK, BUT..... (Score:1)
No, Haldeman was a sapper.
And yes, there's a big difference.
Re:One of My Favorites...Well, OK, BUT..... (Score:2)
It makes less difference that you suspect... RAH was a very junior officer, in the Navy of then-and-there, he was not much better off than a grunt.
Re:One of My Favorites...Well, OK, BUT..... (Score:2)
Peacetime service on a ship with a stateroom and a wardroom compareth not to that of an enlisted infantryman in vietnam. Dont think that a JO's job isnt hard, but there are fewer ambushes and pungee sticks.
Re:One of My Favorites...Well, OK, BUT..... (Score:2)
preemptive strike (Score:3, Informative)
Do NOT judge Starship Troopers the book by Starship Troopers the movie! They are almost completely different from each other! The movie takes about 10 pages from the book and twists them almost to breaking. The result is that a movie that lost all of the really INTERESTING stuff that the book had; from political debate, full-body battle armor, to vicious bipedal aliens..
so yeah.. this goes out to anyone who decides to flame based on what they thought of starship troopers the movie.
(hmm.. i sense an offtopic coming. but i felt it was necessary to say this in order to protect two good books from a movie butchery)
Re:preemptive strike (Score:1)
Re:preemptive strike (Score:3, Insightful)
I had the feeling, it was a failed satire.
I only remember the scene, where the "scientist" looking like Reich SS Leader Himmler himself looking at the wounded creature uttering something like "it fears us". Probably, I only hope it was a failed satire.
Here a little statement from Verhoeven himself:
"The philosophy of Heinlein is certainly in the movie. Whether I adhere to that society myself is something else, but it is the philosophy of the world he described, and we took that from his book." [Warren, Bill. 1997: Starship Troopers: The Official Movie Magazine]
I guess they failed both understanding the book and caricaturising its society.
For me, the most disturbing about the film wasn't the film itself, but the response it created: It wasn't seen as satire, neither as a bad SciFi-flick, but as cool.
Armor (Score:1)
If you liked Starship Troopers (the book) you should check out Armor by John Steakley. It borrows heavily from Starship Troopers, but updates it interestingly and is a great read. It's kind of a cult classic (at least among my friends).
-Steve
Re:preemptive strike (Score:1)
Re:preemptive strike (Score:2)
Relativity, Anyone? (Score:5, Insightful)
See, the reason that it's the Forever War is that everyone who's sent to the frontlines to fight travel on ships that accelerate to an appreciable fraction of the speed of light. The narrator of the story thus spends hundreds of "objective" years fighting the war for a few years of his subjective time. The result? The soldiers who are asked to fight in this war find themselves more and more estranged from human culture, which changes at the usual rate of one year per yer. The soldiers are anachronisms, and as the war drags on and society and the rules of engagement change, the soldiers find themselves cut off from society.
Re:Relativity, Anyone? (Score:2)
Actually, I chose to not reveal any plot points, including that one, as a way to write a review. Reading it now, it does come off as laconic, and needing more meaty details. For my next review (*), I'll know better.
(*) lame-ass excuse: yes, this is the first book review I've ever done. Next one will be better.
Re:Relativity, Anyone? (Score:3, Interesting)
What's most remarkable about the book is Anderson's poetic but accurate depictions of the physics of the ship traveling at close to light speed and how that affects its relationship to the rest of the universe. Like Forever War, Tau Zero was written years ago, but it still a worthwhile read.
Anderson does not dumb down the physics either. The title is taken from a term in the equation describing the time effects of space travel.
I don't want to give away the plot development, but Tau Zero is a great book if you are interested in the ideas of groups in crisis and relativity.
Re:Relativity, Anyone? (Score:2, Informative)
I'd also suggest Frederik Pohl [fantasticfiction.com]'s story "The Gold at Starbow's End" (collected in a book of the same title), plus the novel Gateway from around the same time. The relativistic physics speculation in these 25yo works may not have been treated kindly by subsequent developments but the fictive descriptions are worth the read.
BTW, Forever War isn't a novel but a concatenation of a series of stories published in Analog magazine. At the time Haldeman [earthlink.net] acknowledged the influence of both Troopers and his Vietnam experiences. Some may also enjoy his mundane (non-sfnal) novel about Vietnam, War Year.
Gunbuster -- Relativity in Anime (Score:2)
Unlike the sociological focus of the Forever War, it seems (to me at least), the consequences of time dilation are focused more on the technological advancements the human race accomplishments, as we advance from the first crude spacecraft, to mammoth battleships, to finally a vessel engineered from the planet Jupiter.
During the course of the series, there is one particular combat sequence that shows a pair of time displays in a cockpit, one showing a slowly advancing shipboard clock, while the other shows an earth time display, blurred by the speed of the digits whipping by.
Another amusing feature is a set of "Physics Lessons", as the show pauses for brief explanations hosted by the main characters.
Re:Relativity, Anyone? (Score:1)
The quote marks seemed briefer.
Read it a few months ago (Score:1, Interesting)
Forever War == Starship Troopers after Vietnam (Score:5, Informative)
BTW, Haldeman used to teach a science fiction class at M.I.T., and for all I know he still does.
Re:Forever War == Starship Troopers after Vietnam (Score:2)
It has some very interesting "hard sci fi" bits, with speculation about what spaceflight and combat might *really* entail (in particular, what if we discovered a way to Warp long distances, but don't have a Star Trek way to bend gravity (watch those manuevers!) or Time Relativity (long time between planets, you have to plan ahead.)
Re:Forever War == Starship Troopers after Vietnam (Score:1)
Re:Forever War == Starship Troopers after Vietnam (Score:2)
Lucy has great stories about Haldeman...he got shot in the ass by some gangbanger a few years back(just some random violence) and got rushed to the hospital. When the doctor X-rayed him, the bullet fragments were so indistinguishable from the rest of the chunks of metal in him -- relics of his Vietnam tours of duty -- that the doc said, "What's one more stripe on a tiger?" and sent him home.
Re:Forever War == Starship Troopers after Vietnam (Score:2)
Re:Forever War == Starship Troopers after Vietnam (Score:3, Informative)
I think it's worth pointing out that -- contrary to what many people probably assume -- Heinlein thought "Forever War" was an excellent piece of work, and told Haldeman so, in personally and in public.
But that doesn't fit the pre-conceptions that a lot of people have, so it usually gets lost in the generally shallow analysis whenever this comparison comes up ...
Re:Forever War == Starship Troopers after Vietnam (Score:1)
http://classes.yale.edu/browse.html
Pull down the Term window to select: Fall 2001.
Pull down the Home Page window to see Engineering and Applied Science 111a.
He also claimed to invent "collapsars" (wormholes) for the book to make the math work out. During its initial publication wormholes were proven to be theoretically possible. How cool.
Another book about Microsoft?! (Score:3, Funny)
Advice to future books revewers (Score:2)
Starship Troopers (Score:2, Informative)
Interestingly enough (Score:3, Informative)
Would also recommend Armor by John Steakley (Score:3, Informative)
Links and Sample Chapters (Score:5, Informative)
I actually prefer his trilogy of Worlds, Worlds Apart, and Worlds Enough in Time, but Forever War has a couple of concepts that I come back to years afterwards. I disagree with the assessment that Forever Free and Forever Peace suck. These are different books, with different themes, in different styles. (That said, I didn't enjoy them nearly as much. If I had to recommend one book above all others as an introduction to Haldeman, it would be the short story collection Dealing in Futures
One thing that I enjoy about Haldeman's work that also maddens me is that he adores experimentimg. Although he is a consistently good writer, he really does try to fit the style to the story. Hemingway Hoax reads very differently from some of his other books, and The Coming is a study in rapid-cutting movie techniques applied to novels.
I'm glad to see this book reviewed, as Haldeman has consistently come up with some of the most interesting ideas in SF. Oh, and the tired thing about Forever War as a retread of Starship Troopers? Heinlein didn't think so. He congratulated Haldeman on "writing one of the most original stories I've ever seen."
FOREVER WAR vs. STARSHIP TROOPERS (Score:5, Insightful)
The Forever War first appeared as a series of short stories and novellas in Analog Science Fiction / Science Fact magazine. When the first story, "Hero," was published in 1972, critics complained it was a rip-off of Robert Heinlein's Starship Troopers with sex (and slightly fancier powered armor).
The difference? Heinlein was a U.S. Naval Academy graduate who contracted tuberculosis and was forced out of the service with a medical discarge; I believe he was never given the chance to see combat. Haldeman was a Vietnam draftee. (His online biography says, "Purple Heart and other standard medals.") They had very different views of war. Haldeman's was new and unusual for the SF community.
Both are very good stories by very good writers.
Re:FOREVER WAR vs. STARSHIP TROOPERS (Score:2)
Not only that, but I believe that Haldeman was writing somewhat in response to Heinlein's romanticized, glorified view of combat. (You're right, Heinlein never did see combat I think, yet the dedication on the inside cover of Starship Trooeprs is to all the sargeants who are still "turning boys into men".)
Haldeman's response is a most excellent, "it's nothing to do with glory and honor, it's all about incredibly stupid mistakes, one after the other, and a lot of smart people (the Forever War main character is a physics professor) getting needlessly killed."
Re:FOREVER WAR vs. STARSHIP TROOPERS (Score:1)
In my simplistic way, I gave a copy of both books to my nephew, and explained it to him thusly:
STARSHIP TROOPERS: tending towards "right wing", pre-Vietnam, pro-military pro-war spin.
THE FOREVER WAR: tending towards "left wing", post-Vietnam, anti-military anti-war spin.
Now all I have to do is get him a copy of Steakly's ARMOR for something in the middle.
Re:FOREVER WAR vs. STARSHIP TROOPERS (Score:3, Informative)
I'd strongly recommend both None so Bline and Dealing in Futures, two of his short story collections. Both are great reads, with wonderful observations and thoughts interspersed aong the stories and poems.
There is a graphic novel (bédé) version (Score:3, Informative)
Amazon.fr [amazon.fr]
Unfortunately, the graphic art is very ordinary -- it would've been a masterpiece had it been drawn by, say, Moebius or Bilal.
Re:There is a graphic novel (bédé) version (Score:2, Informative)
read the original book. It's high quality drawings and superb colouring. Btw,
there was once an english translated version but apparently is out of print but
if you are a hardcore fan you can buy it rather expensively from 2nd hand in amazon:
vol [amazon.com]
1, vol [amazon.com]
3.
Review of review (Score:5, Interesting)
This shouldn't be too surprising, as Haldeman was a physics major. More information about the author can be found at his website [earthlink.net].
The Forever War has been called an "answer" to Starship Troopers. The main contrast between the two is that Rico volunteers, as does everyone else, for federal service, whereas Mandela is drafted. Rico knows his war to be just, whereas Mandela is never sure. Rico also revels in the destruction of the enemy of his own accord, while Mandela is forced to a bloodlust via post-hypnotic suggestion. Basically, Starship Troopers justifies its war by portraying an underestimated enemy that is ruthless, while the plot of The Forever War hints at the notion that it is mostly xenophobia and economics that drives the conflict. Rico grows to be eager to fight, of his own volition, while Mandela is coerced at every turn.
I suppose the over-riding thematic difference between the two would be that Heinlein's work portrays a protagonist that through the process of becoming more mature learns that societal duty is the highest, while Mandela has his cynicism and distrust of the powers that be confirmed.
Re:Review of review (Score:1)
Heinlein's work answers "Why be a soldier?"
Haldeman's work answers why "Once a soldier always a soldier"?
Re:Review of review (Score:2)
The original title of the book was something like "The Starship Soldier", which actually fits far better. Since (as with many of Heinlein's books) to more or less focuses on on major character. You don't tend to get this impression from the film.
Forever War is Good, Forever Peace Really Sucks (Score:2, Flamebait)
But unfortunately, despite winning the Hugo and Nebula, Forever Peace (a thematic rather than literal sequel) is a remarkably bad novel. Again the first parts of the book, depicting telepresence-operated military robots fighting a war in Central America, are the best, even if the "Central America as Vietnam War" analog was done much better by Lucuis Shepard back in the 1980s. But after that it gets just plain awful, with paper-depth, sadistic idiot villians intent on literally destroying the world taking over the plot. In fact, the villians are such cliches that they accomplish the rare feat of making Ayn Rand's villians look subtle in comparison. Also, some would say that the ultimate message of the novel is rather revealing of late-20th century liberal thought. "Oh, if we could only cut open everyone's brain, force them to become a hive mind and make them think good thoughts, we could make the world a paradise!" Avoid.
Finally, Haldeman has stated that Heinlein's Starship Troopers was the primary influence on The Forever War, so you can stop debating that question already.
Re:Forever War is Good, Forever Peace Really Sucks (Score:2)
Top 100 SF (Score:2)
Read them, they're The Reality Dysfunction [amazon.co.uk] (I want a hard cover of this one!) - The Neutronium Alchemist [amazon.co.uk] and The Naked God [amazon.co.uk] - They are AWESOME!
I'm currently reading his new book Fallen Dragon [amazon.co.uk] - and although it doesn't compare with the epic Night's Dawn trilogy, it's actually a very good book!
Re:Top 100 SF (Score:1)
And when the Hell is Method for Madness being published, Mr. Gerrold ?!?
Re:Top 100 SF (Score:1)
God Bless Your Mother... (Score:1)
Flame War (Score:1)
Famed Linux author, too (Score:2, Offtopic)
(Spoiler: the unexpected source is BSD)
Pay for writers? (Score:5, Insightful)
To review the Forever War as simply Starship Troopers with different training and aliens is to miss the point. This is not a book "about" aliens or technology or hyperspace travel or combat suits.
This is a book about the nature of war -- the people we send to fight, society's relationship to those people, and the permanent affect such an undertaking has on the lives of those it touches.
The Forever War is an excellent novel, not because it is a sci-fi tale, but because it is a human tale -- an admonition to society that conflicts are not to be entered lightly, and that we have a responsibility to those who fight, well beyond merely supplying them with bullets.
Several versions of this book (Score:5, Informative)
The first version was the original publication, and is the shortest. I think it was cut to make the book shorter, and thus cheaper, and it left out most of the chapters of civilian life.
The second version added some cut chapters, but not all.
The third version is the latest published, and it contained the entire book as originally written. I recently read this version, and I think it is by far the best of the three.
Re:Several versions of this book (Score:2)
:)
It was called "Forever" for a [mythic] reason... (Score:1)
This mythic, almost Odysseus-like epic journey through unthinkable death and destruction of all that we hold dear, and a believable redemption motif for humanity itself, puts this novel way above Ender's Game and Starship Trooper.
The best writers always read about myths and C. G. Jung's work first...
Forever War vs Starship Troopers (Score:1)
Starship Troopers is certainly written from a more conservative perspective. I remember an uncle of mine letting me borrow a copy when I was 10... he had hoped that I would read it and develop a degree of patriotism that would eventually lead me into the Marines or the Army. I didn't read the book back then because I could see right through him. I waited till my late 20s to read it, after having served 9 years in the Navy.
The Forever War is certainly more liberal, and the message of that book was that "War is Hell." and that blind obedience to the government resulted in centuries of unneeded bloodshed.
I like both books equally well. Both are well written, have powerful messages and are totally enjoyable.
The Starship Troopers movie, however, totally sucked and didn't really touch on the real subject of the book. The book was a political masterpiece expressing Heinlein's point of view. The movie was just about killing a lot of bugs.
Forever books (Score:3, Informative)
Pet peeve (Score:2)
Re:Pet peeve (Score:1)
Re:Pet peeve (Score:4, Informative)
Here [webpan.com] is a link.
From that link:
Mass-market paperbacks (pbk)
AKA "rack sized", these are the books that you can find in any store selling books. Most measure aproximately 4.25" x 7".
Trade paperbacks (Tpbk)
Paperbacks that are larger than mass-markets, many times having the same dimensions as a hard cover. Known as trades because they are generally only carried by actual bookstores (in the trade) and not in non-bookstores, like grocery stores. (This however is starting to change.)
Comparison to Forever War (Score:1, Interesting)
I provided a friend of mine "Forever War" and "Armor" (John Steakly) and recommendation to read "Starship Troopers" as well. The three books are similarly themed (future infantry troopers, using a variety of sci-fi powered armor/weapons).
"Armor" was the book he read twice.
FYI, "Armor" is more of a psyc profile of an indiviual experiencing severe stress and mentally/emotionally breaking down under that stress. Not weepy-teary breakdown, but the inabilty-to-care-anymore kind of breakdown. It is a very intense book.
Forever War Tidbits (Score:2, Interesting)
It's beautifully drawn, similar to Druuna or other high-end euro-comics. As an avid fan of the the novel, I found the graphic novelization to be faithful in tone and characterization, but missing quite a few of the details that made the book one of my favorites. I have it on my "best of comics" shelf with Zot, Watchmen and Maus.
I'm very glad I spent the $27 on the books, and no you can't have them! =)
Cartoon version (Score:1)
I just want to point out there is a cartoon version of Marvano and Haldeman. It has reached quite a status in it's genre of realistic (?) cartoon books (note: these kinds of cartoons are quite different as the ones I've seen from the states). It's a series of 3 hard-covers.
In the series "Vrije Vlucht" from Dupuis. I have it in Dutch, it exists in French, but I'm not quite sure if it's available in English.
Marvano has gained the "Gouden Adhemar" just recently for his work on realistic scifi cartoons, especially "The Forever War" and "Dallas Barr"
Philosophy (Score:1)
queers inherit the world (Score:1, Insightful)
This was one of the first books I read that showed a gay society was not evil, and could be a future possibility.
Each trip back finds another mode of sexuality in society, with the final one really way out.
slightly OT (Score:1)
I'm not implying anything about this book, but does anyone else tire of the kind of books that are built around, and exist only for, a gimmick?
Ringworld... I read that a few months ago and when I finished, it really seemed that Niven had thought of the idea and wrote a half-ass story to surround it. Couldn't believe it won an SF award. Same thing with RAMA, another gimmicky idea. This thing comes thru the solar system and a team of explorers goes in and is awed.
The ideas aren't all that bad, but there seemed to be nothing more to the books than what was needed to fluff the gimmick into a novel.
By all means, correct me if I'm wrong.
What's the point? (Score:2, Insightful)
Joe Haldeman/Forever War data (Score:3, Informative)
<http://magicdragon.com>, click on "Science Fiction"
Joe Haldeman, full name Joe William Haldeman:
Hugo Awards 1976, 77, 91, 95
Locus Poll Award 1976
Nebula Awards 1975, 90, 93
World Fantasy Award 1993
HOMer Award 1994
SF Chronicle Award 1995
Joe Haldeman@sff.net
Joe [William] Haldeman, born Oklahoma City 9 Jun 1943, son of Jack Carroll Haldeman and Lorena Spivey, married Mary Gay Potter 21 Aug 1965, author:
* War Year [Holt, 1972]
* Cosmic Laughter, 1974
* The Forever War [St.Martins, 1975; Science Fiction Book Club; Ballentine Books]
* Mindbridge [St.Martins, 1976; Science Fiction Book Club; Ballentine Books]
* Planet of Judgment, 1977
* All My Sins Remembered, 1977
* Study War No More, 1977
* Infinite Dreams, 1978
* Worlds Without End, 1979
* Worlds, 1981 (with brother Jack C. Haldeman II)
* There Is No Darkness, 1983
* Worlds Apart, 1983
* Tool of the Trade, 1987
* Buying Time [William Morrow, June 1989] IMMORTALITY ISBN 0-688-07244-5, a.k.a. "The Long Habit of Living"
* The Hemingway Hoax [Morrow, Jun 1990] TIME TRAVEL 0-688-09024-9
* More Than the Sum of His Parts [Pulphouse (Short Story Paperback), May 1991]
ISBN 1-56146-514-3
* 1968 [London: Hodder & Stoughton, 1994; Morrow, 1995] SF/Vietnam Autobiographical, highly recommended
* Forever Peace [Ace , Oct 1997] ISBN 0-441-00406-7, sequel to The Forever War
* also the "Attar the Merman" series
* some "Star Trek" novels:
* Planet of Judgement [Bantam, 1977]
* Star Trek: World Without End [Bantam, 1979; June 1993]
Anthologies and Collections Edited:
* Nebula Awards 17 [Holt, 1983]
* Dealing in Futures [Viking, 1985] 11 stories + 3 poems
* Body Armor: 2000 (co-anthologists Martin H. Greenberg, Charles G. Waugh)
[Ace, Apr 1986] 11 Military/SF stories, ISBN 0-441-06976-2
* Space-Fighters (co-anthologists Martin H. Greenberg, Charles G. Waugh)
[Ace, Apr 1988] 15 stories, ISBN 0-441-77786-4
* Supertanks (co-anthologists Martin H. Greenberg, Charles G. Waugh)
[Ace, Apr 1987] 10 stories, ISBN 0-441-79106-9
* Vietnam and Other Alien Worlds [NESFA Press, Feb 1993] ISBN 0-915368-52-8
4 stories + 5 essays + 4 poems + long intro
* None So Blind [Morrow AvoNova, May 1996] ISBN 0-688-14779-8
Collection of 11 stories + poems
* Saul's Death & Other Poems [Anamnesis Press, June 1997] ISBN 0-9631203-4-4
$10.95, 77pp, trade paperback, cover artists: Toni Luna Montealegre,
SF/Fantasy Poetry collection (32 poems)
B.S. 1967 in Physics and Astronomy, University of Maryland;
MFA in English 1975 University of Iowa;
Associate Professor of Writing Program 1983-87, M.I.T.; served with U.S. Army 1967-69, decorated Purple Heart; recipient Hugo Award 1976, 1977; Nebula Award 1975; Lifetime Active Member of Science Fiction Writers of America, Authors Guild, Poets & Writers Inc.
THX1138 (Score:1)
Good Sci-Fi? (Score:1)
Anyone got any recommendations? I am about to start reading Isaac Asimov's Foundation, and have given up on Douglas Adams' The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul. Dirk is just annoying.
Re:Good Sci-Fi? (Score:1, Funny)
Enders Game by Orson Scott Card
Programming Perl by Larry Wall, Tom Christiansen, Jon Orwant
Anyone play the Forever War RPG? (Score:2)
One needs to mention "Armor" by John Steakley (Score:3, Insightful)
Starship Troopers,
The Forever War and
Armor
Starship Troopers is the facist, macho view point. The enemy consists of skinnies and nasty bugs. The army way is the right way and cowards are not well recieved.
The Forever War is the idealistic, peacnik view. The situation is always fubar, authority figures suck and the book explores many interesting socialogical situations such as men and women in the army together, gay life, and a world where only nice people are cloned.
Armor - this book avoids the whole good and bad issue because the main character is essencially insane. The situation is always FUBAR. Authority figures run the range of good to incompetent but it doesn't matter because the "Ants" manage to screw up every plan Earth has for them. There is a very cool and interesting and totally out of place middle story that doesn't involve the main character.
I don't just recommend all three books. I think anyone who reads one has to read the other two. I liked them all for their merits but opinions vary and you are bound to hate at least one of these books.
--Peter
Ha, I just read Forever Peace! (Score:2)
Forever Peace was a good read, light but engrossing, with ideas good enough to challenge me even if I disagreed with some of them (or disagreed with the 'light' treatment they recieved).
Odd that this shows up on /. - I'm gonna have to hunt down the book and read it now.
Top 10 Ultimate Sci-Fi Books (Score:2)
Vote HERE [petertheobald.com] for the ultimate Sci-Fi books too.
Lucky you! (Score:2)
SPOILER - the gay theme and the ending (Score:2)
SPOILER -
The author chickens out toward then end of the book though. They have essentially reached "the end of history". Genetic manipulation has become so advanced that they can retailor living humans. Mandela's gay friends all choose to be reenginered straight and all live happily ever after in utopia as straight couples. Why would they choose to turn straight if all they had known in their life was to be gay and presumably suffered no discrimination for it? It would imply that being straight is the only natural choice. But I know I wouldn't want to change if I was offered a magic pill today.
Would you change the core of who you are to fit in?
Re:Another by Joe H. book (Score:1)
Re:All my sins remembered (Score:1, Interesting)
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action.--Soft you now!
The fair Ophelia! Nymph, in thy orisons
Be all my sins remember'd.
Which pretty much sums up Joe's book.
Cheers
-bc
Re:New book? Noooo.... (Score:1)
98% of science fiction is badly written, derivative crap. But that other 2% is why I read it. And Forever War is one of the best in the field. It does a service to newer science fiction readers to promote a genre classic like this one.
Re:New book? Noooo.... (Score:2)
Re:Good Military Sci-Fi Books (Score:1)
Re:Good Military Sci-Fi Books (Score:1)
John Ringo, Best new author of 2001. AHymn Before Battle and Gust Front, as well as March Upcountry and March to the Sea with David Weber
David Drake's Hammer's Slammers
Pournelle's Falkenberg Legion and War World Anthologies, as well as the 'There Will be War' and 'Imperial Stars' anthologies
Starfist series (25th Century Marines)
Keith Laumer's Bolo's
Eric Flint & David Drake's Belisarius
David Drake & S.M. Stirling's 'The General' series and associated novels (The Tyrant is upcoming)
Armor is good
David Gemmell's stuff (Not SF, but good Heroic Fantasy, very similar themes, especially as to the ordinariness of Heroes)
The Crazy Finn
Re:Good Military Sci-Fi Books (Score:2)
Glut of Military Sci-Fi Books (Score:2)
Good point. Almost everything in the sci-fi section today is military, fantasy, or both.
(Amusing alternative: "First Contract", by Greg Costikyan. The aliens land and the hero's startup company goes bankrupt due to alien competition. The hero retaliates by selling cheap plastic stuff to the aliens, exploiting a miserable exchange rate to become the richest person on Earth.)