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Kursk Finally Lifted 118

Posted by timothy from the long-way-back dept.
Michiel writes: "This site, dedicated to the salvage of the Kursk by Mammoet Smit, announced today that the Kursk has been lifted from the seabed and is currently on it's way towards surface. The Giant 4 (which is lifting the Kursk) is at the same time already heading to Murmansk. Mamoet Smit expects to reach Murmansk Monday morning. More information about the Kursk (and its salvage) can be found at Strana" You might to revisit this post about just how the lifting is done as well.
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Kursk Finally Lifted More

Kursk Finally Lifted

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  • Yahoo News.

    http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011008/ts/russ ia _nuclear_submarine_13.html

    For those who experience the Slashdot effect! :)
  • Will the families of the sailors get the remains? Or does the sea consume the body? Anybody know how that works? I read somewhere that the saltwater would break down the remains. Also, I guess that perhaps fish may have been at them.
    • I am betting a large memorial to the sailors of the kursk. And all the bodies will be buried together near it.

    • Re:families? (Score:1, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      After 14 months, at not too extreme a depth and keeping the temperature in mind, there would still be remains. They would all be in varying stages of decay, however. You could encounter mummified remains in some of the compartments that remained airtight but more than likely you're gonna find some gooey people down there. The water would start to break you down, but the cold would keep that pretty slow. There is no great crushing pressure at that depth so the skeleton would remain until the water breaks it down and it becomes pourous. I don't know what kind of organisms you would encounter in that part of the world, or what the salinity is. But 14 months is not a long time to be under water, there is still gonna be a lot there.
      • you also have to consider the fact that they may wish to cover up part of what has happened. granted 14 months in the ocean open to fish and other nasties of the deep may have some effect on the body. there also could be a contamination hazrad to anyone who handles the remains.. i.e. radiation/chemical/who knows what. I can and do speak from experience here. i have looked into the effects of being in water for a long time as far as bodies go. i have lost a parent to a sunken ship

  • It's not lifted yet... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by wowbagger ( 69688 ) on Monday October 08, 2001 @11:12AM (#2402163) Homepage Journal
    It may be out of the mud at the bottom, but until it is actually on the tender boat, it ain't lifted yet. The cables could snap, the sub could break apart, any number of really bad things could happen.

    I saw that Yahoo (the online service, not the Aussy actor) had made the same mistake.
    • Lifted, yes. Raised, not yet. The last story on this had a little slideshow on how it was going to go. The sub isn't going to be raised out of the water while at sea at all.

      The plan, IIRC, was to lift the vessel from the bottom to the underside of the Giant 4 which will carry it to port where floats will be attached (submerged, filled with water) and then the floats will be "blown" to raise both the Giant and Kursk higher in the water so that both can sail into a dry-dock. The Giant will then deposit the sub in the dock and sail out. From there you pump out the dry-dock and you can start slavage or whatever.
    • cf. Glomar Explorer
    • and, in addition to that, the ETA at Murmansk is Wednesday, not Monday: The Kursk was hoisted under the Giant 4 at 17.30 hours Dutch time. Transport to Murmansk at a speed of four nautical miles per hour will commence within two hours of the Kursk being firmly secured to the pontoon. The Giant is expected to arrive at Murmansk with the Kursk on Wednesday (http://www.koersksalvage.com/nieuws.asp?id=80)

  • Another good site... (Score:2, Informative)

    by Ed Bailey ( 1912 )
    Try http://www.kursksalvage.com/ for more info and pictures...

    Ed
    • I missed the smily on the parent, so let me make the obvious point: kursksalvage.com is the same site as koersksalvage.com.

      It's totally beyond me why Smit Tak registered the latter. It doesn't make sense in Dutch, it doesn't make sense in English.

  • Wondering.. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by tcc ( 140386 ) on Monday October 08, 2001 @11:14AM (#2402171) Homepage Journal
    If the real intentions behind lifting that sub was to get the crew back (at least not abandonning them in the bottom of the sea) or because they were affraid others might get their torpedo technology... makes you wonder...

    If it would have been the first case, why wasn't it done before? If it's the second case, doesn't it sound like "coincidence" that since war is grooming, they didn't want to leave anything that could give an edge to someone else? (not that the taliban have subs but..)

    Makes me wonder... Anyhow, I'm sure it's a "good" thing for the families of the people that got trapped in there, at least they will get a proper ceremony and burial place, that doesn't change much, but if my brother/sister or dad would have been caught in there, it would have made one for me knowing he's not resting undersea (but I'd still be pissed at how much time it took them to do this).

    • Re:Wondering.. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by zyklone ( 8959 ) on Monday October 08, 2001 @11:21AM (#2402225) Homepage
      If they were terribly worried about the torpedo technology they would not have left the torpedo section on the bottom of the sea.

      It was cut off to remove the risk of a second explosion.

      • Re:Wondering.. (Score:3, Informative)

        by Jburkholder ( 28127 )
        Exactly. Seems like if your only concern was keeping the weapons tech out of anyone else's hands, you needn't go to the trouble of raising her.

        This is a nuclear sub [cnn.com], right?

        "We have experience of sunken Russian reactors," he added, referring to the Komsomolets nuclear submarine which lies at a depth of 4,500ft off north west Norway.

        The Komsomolets, which sank in 1989 following a fire which killed 42 crewmen, is slowly leaking plutonium, although the depth of the water means it is less of a threat to marine life than the Kursk.

        But Greenpeace says any possibility of radiation leakage was too much, and has demanded the Kursk be raised to the surface as soon as possible rather than just contained as other vessels have been.

        Recovering human remains may be an important part of this mission, but I would think recovering the reactor would be the primary motivation.
    • I believe the primary intention of this mission was to recover the nuclear reactors. The reactors were not damaged in the explosion, but if left on the sea floor they would slowly decay and contaminate the surrounding fishery. However, recovering the remains is still important and should provide a sense of closure to the families who lost loved one's in this terrible accident.
    • Makes me wonder... Anyhow, I'm sure it's a "good" thing for the families of the people that got trapped in there, at least they will get a proper ceremony and burial place...

      What better and more proper burial for a sailor than in his ship at the bottom of the sea? More appropriate there than in a wooden box in a pile of dirt somewhere...

      • What better and more proper burial for a sailor than in his ship at the bottom of the sea?


        Speaking as a former sailor, I can tell you that not all of them would agree with you. For many sailors, it is "just a job", and they'd much rather be buried on dry land, by their families.

    • [Wondering if] they were affraid others might get their torpedo technology. It's not likely that any secret torpedo technology survived what seems to have accidental torpedo detonations in the bow torpedo room. (Are the Russians still implying it might have been something else, like a torpedo fired _at_ the Kursk that just happened to hit it in the torpedo tubes? Anyhow, it looks pretty clear that the first bang set off at least one warhead, and those contain over a ton of high explosive.) Take a big heavy steel tube with the ends closed, put several one-ton+ bombs _inside_ one end, set off one of them, and what do you think is going to be left of the equipment attached to those bombs?

      Anyway, that part of the ship was cut off and left on the ocean bottom. But if the Russians are really paranoid, lifting the rest of the sub (especially the reactor) makes it safe to stack up more high explosive to smash anything that's left and spread the fragments around -- like blasting a jigsaw puzzle over several square miles...

      doesn't it sound like "coincidence" that since war is grooming? This has been many months in the planning and preparation, since long before Sept 11. Even if the dutchmen had the right equipment and team sitting around ready to go, it would take more than a month to get it into position, do the undersea cutting, and hook up the cables. And before then they had to do months of work to customize their "Giant 4" pontoon by cutting a hole in the middle to take the conning tower. So the Russians had to have made a down payment (at least) several months ago -- assuming that the dutchment did six months or so of planning merely in hopes of getting a contract...
    • The Kursk was a nuc. I don't think that anyone, even the russians, want a nuclear reactor sitting there at the bottom of the ocean, slowly rusting through. The torpedos were left there, and the sea has always been a fitting and honorable burial place for dead sailors.

  • Videos (Score:5, Informative)

    by mnordstr ( 472213 ) on Monday October 08, 2001 @11:15AM (#2402172) Journal
    Check out the videos [koersksalvage.com]. They are really awesome.

  • BBC Coverage (Score:3, Informative)

    by pallotta ( 143747 ) <steinar@noSpAM.gmx.net> on Monday October 08, 2001 @11:16AM (#2402177)
    The BBC has some good info [bbc.co.uk] on the practical aspects of the operation.

    Low-tech, but still nice.

  • Olive will be happy! (Score:5, Funny)

    by gosand ( 234100 ) on Monday October 08, 2001 @11:16AM (#2402183)
    Ay, the kursk has been lifted, eh? That'll teachk me to eats me spinach and go punckin mummies. I needs to go find Olive Oyl, I tolds her it didn't happen to every guy, that I was kursked.

  • A civilian engineering firm (which the dutch seem to excell at for large projects) returns a derelict weapon of war and mass destruction to it's home country, which was likely on the list of targets in the event WWIII ever broke out.


    "Hallo, here is your nuclear submarine and missiles, have a nice day!"

    • It has been said that the difference between a Mechanical Engineer and Civil Engineer is that Mechanical Engineers build weapons and Civil Engineers build targets.

      Well in this case it looks like the Civil Engineers get the last laugh.

    • That has to be the most moronic thing ever said. Do you have a brain at all? Posting from the United States has to *really* scare and confuse you. Countries help out *other* countries in a time of need because people are people and because humanitarian efforts are always put before stop cold war era politics. And unless you have lived in a case for the past 12 years or you are an idiotic, uneducated teenager (which is becoming 99% of Slashdot unfortunately) then you would know that the Soviet Union no longer exists and that Russia is a democratic nation, which has no intention of having a WWIII. Hello, Earth to teenager. Poeple/countries now *help* each other in times of need. Why does the United States give *billions* of dollars to Russia for humanitarian aid, military, economic strengh, and about 100 other purposes? Let that little bit of knowledge confuse you for a moment. Why not just let Russia waste away into an archaic wastland..."Hey, Look Bob, no more Russia...We are all safe, no more WWIII...Oh shit, they just sold all of their nukes to Osama Bin Ladin to feed their families?...Why didn't we help them when they needed food?..." It is called the nature of the human spirit and just simply goodwill politics. Why do we give the Afghans food at the same time we bomb them? Because the Afghans aren't the problem. It is a few people in power that are the true cause for harm. By your philosophy, we should just carpet bomb the entire country until every Afghan is killed. Okay, so what if Bin Laden is not even *in* Afghanistan right now? Millions of innocent people would die. We would be no better than the terrorists. But, if we help the *people* of Afghanistan to eat, cloth, and sustain their families through aid relief, then the *people* of Afghanistan will take care of the Taliban and Bin Laden *for us*. It is called the human spirit and goodwill politics.
      Plus, since you don't know, or haven't taken a real World Civilization course in your life, Russia/USSR saved most of Europe's ass in WWII. They only lost more people in WWII than all of the other countries combined...by a huge margin. The reason for the cold war was that the USSR never wanted to be tricked and lied to by anyone ever again (read: Hitler and his non-aggression pact with Stalin) and after Stalin signed his pact with Hitler, Hitler turned around almost instantly and tried to kill everyone in the USSR and take it over as well as all of Europe. After that and WWII, the USSR became self sufficient and untrusting. Not that the *USSR* couldn't be trusted...but the USSR *couldn't* trust the rest of the world to not lie to them again about any sort of non-aggression treaty. Simple human defense mechanism. The reason for the Cold War is 100% American ignorance and paranoia. Ever heard of the "Red Scare"? Why not pick up a real History book and educate yourself. No one in Western Europe has ill feelings towards Russia. You write your post like an idiot. Plus, WWIII...There was/is a list? As far as I and everyone else in the world knows, WWIII will be the last war ever fought on the entire planet. No country will survive. Do you think you are invincible to radiation and nuclear winter? If you do, you *really* are funny.
      PS-We are doing the same thing to China that we did to the USSR after WWII, in case you are wondering. The Chinese? They've been there for 10,000 years (literally)...Why do we all of a sudden give a shit now?...I can gaurantee you they don't give a shit about us. Why would they? It has always been China, and it always will be China. Things didn't just suddenly last spring after the elections. George Bush is the fucking idiot we should be worried about.
      • Plus, since you don't know, or haven't taken a real World Civilization course in your life, Russia/USSR saved most of Europe's ass in WWII.

        The only reason that Hitler started WWII was because Stalin signed a non agression pact with Germany. This enabled Germany to start taking over Eastern Europe without fear from Russia. In fact, Russia was on the side of Germany when WWII broke out. The only reason that they changed sides was because Germany started attacking them.

        After that and WWII, the USSR became self sufficient and untrusting. Not that the *USSR* couldn't be trusted...but the USSR *couldn't* trust the rest of the world to not lie to them again about any sort of non-aggression treaty.

        After WWII the USSR broke EVERY treaty they signed, then demanded that the other side still honor the treaty. Why don't YOU pick up a history book and read it? The Naked Communist [freerepublic.com] is a good book that strips the propaganda from communism and tells the truth.
  • First off: I don't belive in this. If this is the way you should interpret quantras they can mean just about anything. But it is a very amusing read (was to me anyway).

    Nostradamus Kursk [geocities.com]

    Geocities have bandwith limitation (It worked when I posted this). I know it's on other pages out there also but couldn't find it now.

    • The quatrains of Nostradamus are a backwards-looking Rorschach test for the magical-thinking paranoid child in all of us. I say backwards-looking because the 'meanings' of his quatrains can only be 'divined' after some event has been found that seems, to one degree or another, to 'fit' a given quatrain (usually after quite a bit of linguistic hammering, duct-tape and misdirection).

  • more information (Score:3, Informative)

    by Orlando ( 12257 ) on Monday October 08, 2001 @11:28AM (#2402259) Homepage
    Mammoet's site on the salvage [kursksalvage.com] which has some nice simulations and technical details of the lifting mechanisms. also slightly OT but interesting none the less is information on the building of Mammoet's new office [mammoet.com] (flash), a 10 storey steel and concrete building that will be built off site, and transported lock stock to it's final resting place by canal. these guys don't do things by half measures!

  • Hmm... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by RareHeintz ( 244414 ) on Monday October 08, 2001 @11:38AM (#2402297) Homepage Journal
    Are the Dutch members of NATO? Just curious... I mean, even a few pictures of the interior (bridge, sonar room, engine spaces, etc.) could be a major intelligence win if one were of that disposition.



    OK,

    - B

    • Actually I remember hearing talk of Russia possibly joining NATO (talk about changing times). Anyone else hear anything about this? (or any progress that has been made?)

      • Re:Hmm... (Score:3, Informative)

        by Galvatron ( 115029 )
        There were some preliminary talks about them joining NATO or the EU (forgotten which) but these broke down when NATO started bombing Yugoslavia. The majority of the Russian population is Slavic, and so they have historically protected the Slavs in the Balkans. That's how WWI started, when A-H wanted to retaliate against Serbia, Russia stepped in to defend the Slavs (so Germany supported A-H by attacking France, an ally of Russia, in a pre-emptive strike, and the rest is history).
    • Yeah, Then netherlands are part of NATO. But remember this is a civillian operations... These guys where paid big bucks to lift up that submarine. I think somewhere in the deal there must have been a part about not allowing not nescesary personal onboard. ;)
      • Smit?s Nico Buis once was head of the Dutch secret service and he was the former commander-in-chief of the Dutch Navy is no stranger to the Barents Sea, having patrolled the same waters as a submarine commander in cold war days... Also some of the divers are Americans ....
    • Are the Dutch members of NATO?

      Yes. Dutch aircraft (IIRC, from the squadron where I served, 323 sqn) also took part in the operations in the Balkan a couple of years ago. Check the official NATO [nato.int] site.

    • Re:Hmm... (Score:2, Informative)

      by hughk ( 248126 )
      The Dutch are in NATO. There are a lot of divers with North Sea experience on the team including British and American as well. I know that several British commercial divers from the North Sea got their training in the Royal Navy.

      However, only Russians are allowed inside. The retrieval of the crewmens' bodies earlier was by Russian divers only.

      I don't know how this works about the bow section though. This would have been cut from outside but it is inevitable that a lot of information could have been gathered by divers after the bows were removed. Even just looking at the hull cross section would have been interesting (sound damping, etc.).

  • First they lift it, then they secure it, they they transport it.

    They are not securing while they are transporting it Murmansk.

    As it say if you dig into it a bit:

    The Kursk was hoisted under the Giant 4 at 17.30 hours Dutch time. Transport to Murmansk at a speed of four nautical miles per hour will commence within two hours of the Kursk being firmly secured to the pontoon. The Giant is expected to arrive at Murmansk with the Kursk on Wednesday
    a nit pick on how the story was originally posted. but it is sort of important.

    Thank God they got it up before the Winter Ice closed in.

  • Say that five times fast (Score:3, Funny)

    by sharkey ( 16670 ) on Monday October 08, 2001 @12:04PM (#2402393)
    Murmansk Monday morning
  • I wonder if when they get it back to port that we'll ever find out what truly caused the sub to sink. Or if they will just leave it as it stands now, with the world second guessing the cause.

    Goran
  • This is an incredibly complicated and massive effort. I'm sure once it is complete, everyone involved will look forward to an easy task.

    May I suggest lifting the Slashdot Cruiser from the bottom of the lake?

  • REALLY NICE VRML simulation of lifting (Score:4, Informative)

    by jgaynor ( 205453 ) <jon.gaynor@org> on Monday October 08, 2001 @01:05PM (#2402628) Homepage
    Got this from the strana site -

    Theres a really well done VRML simulation of how it was all done. Its really just a series of still environment snapshots from various stages of the salvage operation but someone took ALOT of time on it. Good job -

    http://www.parallelgraphics.com/vrml/kursk/index.h tml?eng [parallelgraphics.com]

    I usually dismiss VRML as crappy and slow but Im really impressed with this one.

    • WHOA. (Score:2)

      by joshwa ( 24288 )
      It's not just a series of still environment shapshots at all! If you click on one of the actions, then click play, you can watch the raising (and any of the preliminary actions) from several different views!

  • Perhaps more interesting... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Durandel1020 ( 230673 ) on Monday October 08, 2001 @01:33PM (#2402759) Homepage
    The torpedoes on the submarine are at least as interesting then the recovery effort. Quite remarkable actually, of course if they dont explode before launch that is. :)

    Here is a very good article [janes.com] about them
    For the goatse.cx weary...

    http://www.janes.com/defence/naval_forces/news/j dw /jdw010910_6_n.shtml

    • You've confused Granit with Shkval.

      What you've linked to are the Granit anti-ship cruise missiles. Those are the vertically-launched ramjet missiles, taken to ramjet speeds by a booster, and capable (or so the military says) of flying under the radar height in formation, then one rises up, turns its radar on, and dispatches the targets to others. Those are supposed to be capable of taking out an entire aircraft carrier battle group.

      What possibly sank Kursk are the Shkval torpedoes - the supercavitating supersonic torpedoes that use jet propulsion and swim in a straight line to their target.

      Both are supposed to be the most advanced missile and torpedo technologies in use by Russians, both have not been fully tested.

  • Is it a keeper? (Score:2, Informative)

    by loosenut ( 116184 )
    10-9-01

    After 10 hours of pulling cables, the Kursk has finally been brought to the surface. Russian inspectors onboard the Giant 4 entered the sub, and returned five minutes later. After a brief announcement that "all the vodka rations had been destroyed", the Kurst was dropped back into the Barents Sea.

  • Discovery Channel Show (Score:2, Informative)

    by flewp ( 458359 )
    I believe the Discovery channel is having a show on the raising of the Kursk. Unfortunatly, I cannot connect to their website at the moment to find out what time and what day it will be aired. Anybody know when the show might air?
  • This reminds me of a CIA operation from the early 70's where the US built a specialized ship [209.207.236.112] to raise a sunken Soviet nulear submarine [kemble.org.uk] from the bottom of the Pacific. I only hope that the Kursk lifting device is slightly more reliable, as the Glomar Explorer's "claw" kind of fell apart midway through the raising.

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