Atlas of Worldwide Light Pollution 234
mgarraha writes: "Researchers at the University of Padua and NOAA have analyzed DMSP data to produce a new atlas
of night sky brightness due to artificial lighting. Previous maps only showed the distribution of light sources. Their
paper
will appear in the Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society. Here is an AP article."
Middle east censored? (Score:2)
Odd.
Re:Middle east censored? (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Middle east censored? (Score:2)
Further north, most of Canada is like Maine. Even the well settled areas tend to have little light pollution compared with major cities.
EF world atlas (Score:1)
Beautiful image ( although scary ) outlining the coasts and air/sea shipping lanes.
Light Pollution Tools (Score:2, Informative)
Website using CGI script to estimate light pollution:
http://www.darksky.org/ida/darksky/ [darksky.org]
Java Applet to estimate light pollution:
http://www.darksky.org/ida/darksky/darksky.html [darksky.org]
To help you use the above tools, you'll need to know your latitude and longitude in degrees. Just type in your zip code at the bottom of this page:
http://tiger.census.gov/cgi-bin/mapbrowse-tbl/ [census.gov]
When converting latitude and longitude for use in these tools, use a negative number to denote South and West (W); use a positive number to denote North (N) and East (E). For example, "49.147247 N" = "49.147247" and "73.996206 W" = "-73.996206".
compare light to population (Score:4, Informative)
Compare light to population and no one should wonder why the US is the biggest polluter in the world. Put together the light intensity of China, India, and Indonesia, and you've got half the population of the world, yet they still put off less light than the NorthEast corridor of the US. That's 3,000,000,000 people to 60,000,000.
Re:compare light to population (Score:1)
Re:compare light to population (Score:1)
Re:compare light to population (Score:2)
Re:compare light to population (Score:2, Funny)
You start first by giving up your computer and your car.
Re:compare light to population (Score:2)
Light means prosperity. And prosperity generally means taking better care of the environment. When China is lit up like the U.S., you can bet it will be easier to breath there, too.
Re:compare light to population (Score:2)
*black stare*
Pardon me while I laugh hysterically at that comment. Yes, American air is so much cleaner than the air in the nonindustralized world. (Including parts of Commiela--er, China.) Of course, I suppose it's obvious -- what with all the smog warnings they face in the third world. It is truly terrible that parts of their population can't leave the house due to air polution generated by all those consumer automobiles and industrial infrastructure they don't have. Riiiiight...
BRx ;)
Re:compare light to population (Score:1)
Reason: Coal. They burn it, we don't
Re:compare light to population (Score:2)
I wasn't. I've given up on them. I fully expert the US to start the next world war, trying to impose The American Way onto everyone.
(Yes, I'm sacrifying two whole karma-points on this. I hope it will open someone's eyes though .. )
Re:compare light to population (Score:1)
So yea, the air in the US, even in most large cities, is far cleaner than the air in say Europe. You want to talk about polluters, then get the Europeans to clean up, they produce far more pollution per kilojoule used than the United States.
Re:compare light to population (Score:1)
Re:compare light to population (Score:1)
:p
BRx.
Re:compare light to population (Score:2)
Guess I wasn't clear in my comment. I was talking about pollution in general... most of that electricity is produced by coal, and it is wasted so carelessly. I don't think of light as being pollution until I'm far away from it, and that's not often.
Doh! (Score:2)
What's that beside Argentina? (Score:2)
Not just the Falklands (Score:1)
*Sigh*
DMSP earthlights image (Score:4, Informative)
It's a map of light sources, and shows some really interesting structures. The Nile is much brighter than the rest of Egypt, the central U.S. is a grid of cities, and there's a railroad stretching across Russia to the Pacific Ocean.
A small version of the image was an astronomy picture of the day last November (http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap001127.html [nasa.gov]), and a larger version of the image is also available (http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0011/earth lights_dmsp_big.jpg [nasa.gov]). There's a short writeup at http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Study/Lights/ [nasa.gov].
Better lighting (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Better lighting (Score:2, Informative)
One thing to point out, is that the map is using mercator's projection (a way of making a sphere look like a square on a map) and it makes things near the equator a lot smaller than the land far from the equator. This makes places like india, australia and the malasia area a lot smaller compared to europe, canada, and northern US. Those cities in australia, for instance, are a lot larger than some of the canadian cities shown, yet it looks like they give off a heck of a lot less light. I don't think it is the amazing lighting technology they are using.
Re:Better lighting (Score:2)
I think it may actually be the case that Australia has less light pollution. One more reason to make me want to move there.
Re:Better lighting (Score:1)
Waste (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm a pilot. Upshining light... IS GOOD. (Score:1, Informative)
Well, if you thought driving at night on an unlit highway with no headlights is bad, then you know what flying at night is like all the time.
I for one delight in being able to use the artificial upshining night lighting to navigate by. It makes the skies SAFER. And that's more important than some stargazing.
If you want darkness, go drive to the boonies.
Re:I'm a pilot. Upshining light... IS GOOD. (Score:1)
Shrug, fly on decent moonlit nights or just don't fly at night. If it's that dangerous, don't do it.
I would rather have much less light pollution and far darker nights, even if it inconveniences a few pilots.
~Cederic
ps: The skies would be a damn sight safer if people didn't fly in them.
Re:Waste (Score:2)
That, and people that are so scared of the boogeyman that they have to have several thousand watts of lights on their property up all night long.
The worst, it seems to me, are large car dealerships. For some reason they seem to have amazingly bright white lights glaring on their lot all night. Why? Is it theft prevention? Or is it to make the lot look like daylight so that people driving by will see beautiful cars? In any event, it sickens me. Last winter, I was driving down from Berkeley, CA to somewhere near Monterey. We passed one of those mega-mall car dealerships which was a ways away from downtown anywhere. And it was the brightest damn thing around. Later, from where I was staying near a peak in Monterey, I could see the general glow of light pollution around the area-- with this huge ugly bright spot standing out at that car mega-mall. A blight on the landscape. It was truly depressing. I really wish I had had a tactical nuke at that point. That would have briefly been brighter, but thereafter would have made sure that nobody built anything else on the site for a while.
-Rob
Gas stations (Score:2)
The worst, it seems to me, are large car dealerships.
IDA [darksky.org] also likes to talk about gas stations. Some are more brightly lit at night than most offices are during the day! It's as if each gas station feels a need to light itself more brightly than its neighbors, assuming a correlation between foot-candles and sales revenue. I think I will start boycotting the worst offenders just to be contrary.
Re:Waste (Score:1)
I live (when I am not at uni) in Coonabarabran, near the largest scope in Australia. Looking at the map of .au - it seems that Coonabarabarabran is the little spec of light just north of the larger spec of light that I suspect is Dubbo. It must be, because we are the only town around the place. But the only thing we have is a football stadium (that wastes an incredible amount of light).
I remember the 10 hour exposure that David Malin took a few years back, pointed in the direction of Sydney. Sydney is 500 kms away, yet you could see Sydney, a small city to the north, and a small city to the south. Now - Coona probably contributes just as much light to the scope, despite having a few laws in place to curb excess lighting.
It is actually quite scary - I can't see a thing in Sydney - last night I couldn't tell whether clouds or the lighting was stopping me seeing the sky. But Sydney is a tiny emitter compared to some .us states.
Re:New York State (Score:2)
Re:Intelligent choice and design aren't free. (Score:2, Insightful)
I wish this were true, but it isn't. All you have to do is take a walk in any U.S. city, and you'll see people deliberately choosing wasteful vehicles, parking them in front of homes or offices with deliberately wasteful landscaping, living deliberately wasteful lifestyles. By now all Americans know how wasteful they are, but choose to do nothing about it. In fact, we have a tendency to stigmatize those who choose not to deliberately waste resources.
As far as intelligent choice and design not being free, that's true. Intelligent choices and designs are usually a win for the consumer because water wise landscaping, or sky-friendly/good neighbor lighting and efficient vehicles cost the same or less to install/acquire and cost far less to maintain.
Living comfortably requires conservation. (Score:2)
We do pay more. But if you think the only cost of being wasteful is some extra cash out of your paycheck, you are sadly mistaken. If you think you are the only one who pays the cost for your waste, then you are even more sadly mistaken.
You see? Your have to pay for what you want (light hoods). Let us pay for what we want (SUVs).
Hm. How long would it take for the light hood to pay for itself, because you can use a bulb half as bright (because all of it's light is hitting the ground, instead of half shining into space)? Not only from a monetary standpoint, but from the standpoint of conserving our energy supply. What I want gives us more energy, and saves us money (especially if it is a street light, paid for by your taxes).
But how does your SUV pay for itself? Maybe you think the extra monetary cost is worth it for the convenience or whatever the supposed advantage of an SUV is. But what about the extra fuel consumption? How is your SUV worth the extra cost to our (meaning everyone's) fuel supply?
You see, it isn't so simple as "you do what you want, let me do what I want", because what you do affects everyone.
Now before you dismiss me as a self centered American bastard. Know that we could conserve 95% of all water by recuclying and using (including for drinking) so-called gray water (recycled from sewage).
As a Boy Scout, I learned how to survive by distilling my own urine (though in a true survival situation, you could drink it straight up). I have no problem with this, and the existence of a stupid law prohibiting it doesn't surprise me. Yet another thing that needs to change, no surprise.
And how does this have to do with you not being a self-centered American bastard? ^_^
There's more to the equation than "conservation". People are living things that want to live confortably. And comfort requires waste. It is not wrong to want this, either.
It's not morally wrong to want to live comfortably, this is true. I myself want to live comfortably.
It's wrong in a factual sense to think that living comfortably requires waste (at least to the insane degree of current times). In fact, the opposite is true. Living comfortably requires that we not waste, so that we can continue to live comfortably, as can our children. We are either going to learn this, or we are going to stop living comfortably.
Re:Living comfortably requires conservation. (Score:3, Interesting)
According to this [marketwatch.com] article, an SUV owner spends an extra $100-$250 per month compared to a regular car in just operating costs on top of the extra cost of the vehicle. It would be better to put this in a retirement fund. Considering that 85% of these vehicles are never used for the conditions they are designed for, that really is a waste. All for ego.
Re:Living comfortably requires conservation. (Score:1)
Re:That isn't wasteful... (Score:1)
A morally indefensible point in climates where water is more expensive than gasoline.
Only safer in the sense that they have a tendency to inflict damage in a multi-car crash. Can you live with the realization that your "safety", which wouldn't be necessary if people drove the cars that they needed to drive, only comes at the expense of the lives of others?
SUV's have a higher incidence of injury to the occupant in single car crashes than smaller cars with lower centers of gravity, and a much higher incidence of solo rollover.
As for status, I'll leave that one to the truly religious.
Here we have a sterling example of a person who appears to believe that preparation for war is the highest good a society can strive for.
I pity you, I really do.
Re:Intelligent choice and design aren't free. (Score:3, Informative)
You're just one more person with an agenda claiming unrelated benefits for compliance ... After reading this story, almost everyone will forget about it, because it's really not very important.
Perhaps you should stay more in tune with current events. Like the power crisis in California. Using less energy is not an unrelated but a pretty direct benefit.
The folks up in Clagary thought so, as you can read here. [skypub.com] They expect significant savings in energy by changing to full cutoff light fixtures.
A similar law recently passed in Connecticut and another is awaiting the governer's signature in New York.
Light pollution also takes its toll on the environment in more subtle ways then wasted energy.
From a story at ABCNews.com [go.com]:
"Darkness for Health
Scientists have now discovered that only when it's really dark can your body produce the hormone called melatonin. Melatonin fights diseases, including breast and prostate cancer. "It turns off the cancer cells from growing," says Joan Roberts, a photo biologist. But if there's even a little light around your bed at night, your melatonin production switches off. "So there may be this natural way that Mother Nature has given us, that is, dark night to keep certain cancers under control," Roberts says. Even watching TV turns on other immune system hormones that should be active only in daytime. They get depleted, and you're more likely to get a cold. Nature needs darkness, too. The immune systems of animals grow weak if there's artificial light at night."
Not getting cancer seems like a pretty significant benefit.
Light pollution also has adverse effects on migrating birds and plant life (the plants can't track the natural light curve and don't properly prepare for winter).
Interested readers my wish to check out the International Dark-Sky Association [darksky.org] for more info on light pollution and its effects.
Steve M
Strange bright zone off of South America? (Score:1)
Re:Strange bright zone off of South America? (Score:1)
* The Falkland Islands / Malvinas catching fire?
* Atlantis alive and kicking
* A bug sitting on the satellite sensor
*
Cthulhu rising?
Photoshop to the rescue... (Score:1)
Easy! (Score:2)
Oh NO! (Score:1)
A better picture (Score:2)
canada? (Score:2, Funny)
Re:canada? (Score:1, Interesting)
Odd bright spots (Score:2)
But the really odd thing is the *huge* patch of fuzzy light just north of the Outer Hebrides, North-West corner of Britain.
It's roughly where I'd expect the Faeroe Isles to be. The Faeroes are a small cluster of a dozen or so very small islands.
And before any irate Faeroese start to hassle me, I'm from a very small island off the NW of Britain myself!
Re:Odd bright spots (Score:1)
Wierd places (Score:2, Interesting)
Also, look near south west Kashmir, it reckons the area is as light as much of Europe.
Nigeria looks pretty light near the coast too - spending all that oil money eh?
It's interesting to pick out places - Cairo and the Nile valley in Egypt. Around Bangkok and further south to Kuala Lump and Singapore. Also the sultan in Brunei is leaving his lights on a bit too much
Tibet must be the darkest place on earth I reckon. Then again, maybe Somalia.
Jamie
Re:Wierd places (Score:1)
I know my parents often forget to turn the outside lights off, but they're not _that_ bright
Re:Wierd places (Score:2)
Also note that the London-like lights near Nigeria are actually in the Gulf of Guinea.
There are lights in the North Sea, though I can write those off to drilling.
Anyway, quite an interesting idea. Some cities are easy to pick out, as is (for example) the Lower Nile and the associated delta.
In response to another poster, the entire world is not included in this atlas. If you look closely at the big world thumbnail [lightpollution.it], you can discern the areas of the world that they've actually surveyed. Apparently they gave low priority to oceans, Siberia, and Canada.
Re:Wierd places (Score:2)
Re:Wierd places (Score:2)
Re:Wierd places (Score:1)
No, the sun's never far below the horizon. you get more of a perpetual twilight.
OK, OK, OK! (Score:5, Funny)
You didn't have to go to so much trouble just to nag me.
Light pollution and stellar visibility (Score:3, Insightful)
This is due to other atmospheric hazes -- in Chicago there's all sorts of moisture in the air and other aerosols that reflect the light pollution back to you when you're looking up, thus making it harder for you to see stars. But under clean air there can be a huge amount of light pollution around you and it won't affect the sky brightness very much at all.
I've seen the Milky Way from the city of Tucson, one of those very bright spots, but never from my home of St. Louis despite the fact that they're both hopelessly light polluted, and this is why.
Atlas of Worldwide Pollution (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Atlas of Worldwide Pollution (Score:1)
Re:Atlas of Worldwide Pollution (Score:2)
Re:Atlas of Worldwide Pollution (Score:1)
The Milky Way Is A Spectacular Sight... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The Milky Way Is A Spectacular Sight... (Score:1)
Yeah, but full-FOV retinal scanning displays will be able to recreate that same experience (minus the the pile of dogshit you just stepped in).
Re:The Milky Way Is A Spectacular Sight... (Score:2)
Re:The Milky Way Is A Spectacular Sight... (Score:5, Interesting)
Today, I live even further in the "country" and can see almost nothing. Yes, there are a few nights when I can see the stars, those are the nights of power failures. It's very sad. As real-estate developers continue to build larger, more luxurious homes with overzealous lighting in already heavily populated areas or buy out the precious open space, the situation just keeps getting worse.
In the 60's and 70's, the sky was still pretty amazing. No wonder we wanted to go into space. Now, we look up and it's not quite so awe inspiring...sorta like a polluted beach or something. "Who wants to go there???" we ask.
People wonder what the big fuss is all about. But, as the previous poster stated, it truly is a humbling experience to look up and see the heavens as our forefathers did hundreds, if not thousands, of years ago.
In some respects, the Californian's are lucky. With the rolling blackouts, maybe they'll get a glimpse to see what we are all missing.
Re:The Milky Way Is A Spectacular Sight... (Score:2, Interesting)
I grew up on a farm in an area that, on the current referenced map, is light green. In the 1950's the area, like so many others, would have been black (had the technology for such an image existed).
It was corn harvest time in the midwest, a cold November night. I, a boy of about eight years, was holding the flashlight to help my father back up a wagon-load of corn to the elevator (to the urban dwellers, the term 'elevator' also refers to a sort of conveyor belt thing that lifts the grain to the top of the storage bin).
But boys will be boys (or, children, as it were -- no need to discriminate here), and the onyx sky overhead, embedded with diamonds, beckoned.
I knew at the time that the stars were far away, far farther that I could, at that time or any time within my reach, hope to travel. But I knew I could go there in spirit. And I knew a way...
I raised the flashlight and aimed it at a promising star; I then moved the beam outward in a spiral path to cover as much of the cosmos as possible. This gesture, I knew, would not redound to me in any way during this life.
But I knew then, and still know, that this beam -- four decades now on its illimitable tour -- still travels as _my_ message to other worlds.
And this, apart from astronomical considerations, is the magic that light polution destroys.
Re:The Milky Way Is A Spectacular Sight... (Score:2, Interesting)
Here in the UK there is almost nowhere devoid of light (desert light), as you are never really more then 20 miles from a town. Most of the land (especially here in the north west) is disgustingly light, you're lucky to see venus and mars, let alone anthing bigger. I go to Exeter Uni and I was amazed the first night i was there walking back from the pub - even a mile out of town, on a large campus, you could see so much more then near Manchester.
But nothing will beat the boat.
Regarding the map - what is the lights in the North Sea? Oil Rigs?
Re:The Milky Way Is A Spectacular Sight... (Score:1)
hmm.. they must be expanding
Re:The Milky Way Is A Spectacular Sight... (Score:1, Insightful)
Then I took a trip down US 84 through northern Texas. Let me tell you, when you can see stars out the *SIDE WINDOW OF THE CAR*, you really are in the middle of nowhere.
We parked in a rest area outside Post, TX, and you could see them all the way down to the horizon.
If you don't think constellations are impressive, then you just haven't gotten to a place that's dark enough.
Re:The Milky Way Is A Spectacular Sight... (Score:2)
Re:The Milky Way Is A Spectacular Sight... (Score:3, Insightful)
(a) seeing the universe laid out for real is awe-inspiring and more than a little humbling. I think that if more people were to see the real night sky more often, there'd be a significant attitude change. When you realize just how insignificant and impermanent we humans are, the bullshit in life isn't so important any more.
(b) street lights actually increase crime rates. No one wants to wander the streets in the dark, it's a bugger to break into a house when you can't see what you're doing, and it's difficult to be unseen when your flashlight turns out to be the brightest thing in the neighbourhood.
(c) if you really want to be impressed, take up backpacking and head into the mountains. There are some remote areas that make the normal "real" view from out-of-town look about as cheesy as the out-of-town view makes the in-town view look!
(d) in particular, aim to be in the mountains during a meteor shower. Ye godz!
Re:Why the line in USA? (Score:3, Insightful)
The reason for this divide is the large pool of relatively warm water to the south -- the Gulf of Mexico. Frontal systems crossing the midsection of the continent are relatively moisture-starved until they can tap the much higher precipitable waters in the atmosphere influenced by the Gulf.
In spite of the govt's effort to populate the drylands of the West in the late 19th century, Ma Nature played her winning card with the Dust Bowl of the 1930s. Now, even though the high plains are intensively farmed once again, it's only because of powerful electric pumps which will deplete most of the Ogallala aquifer in the next 20-50 years. After that, the left hand side of that line will be really dark.
Re:Why the line in USA? (Score:1)
This is roughly the line of the 100th meridian, where the climate of N. America changes radically.
East of this line, it is possible to have a viable, self-sufficient farm. In the West, the combination of altitude and lack of summer rain means that ranching is the only productive use of the land. Because of this, the two areas were settled very differently last century. This is also (roughly) the Western boundary of the Ogalila Aquifer, which was heavily tapped only recently (1920s-30s).
Most of the lights you see in the West (except for the Pacific Coast) are cities totally dependent upon imported water (esp. Colorado River) delivered via recent public works projects.
J.
Re:Why the line in USA? (Score:1)
I dispute that the US is the largest "polluter." Ok, I agree if you consider it as a single country, but if you look at it in land mass, Western Europe is every bit as bright. If you look at it as percentage of country covered, Japan certainly takes the prize followed closely, it looks like, by Germany and England.
What puzzles me is the islands off of South America. What is going on down there?
Re:Why the line in USA? (Score:2)
ulster.net? I guess that means you're in .uk? Try taking a street address of some place in Texas (Dell or Compaq would be a good start), plugging it into mapquest.com, and zooming out. Then click around in various directions and see how they correspond to the light pollution map. And by the way folks, this map is supposed to be a light pollution map, not a light source map, so that's why there are all these great blobs, including ocean areas.
Re:Why the line in USA? (Score:2)
Here's a good site about Texas highways [texasfreeway.com].
Re:Why the line in USA? (Score:1)
Re:Why the line in USA? (Score:1)
Re:Why the line in USA? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Why the line in USA? (Score:1)
Re:Why the line in USA? (Score:1)
It's way further than a bit. I'd say Oklahoma City and Dallas are over 400 miles west of the Mississippi River.
The American conquest and subsequent resettlement of North America was a movement westward.
Geez, why is it that everyone with an axe to grind has to find some excuse to whet it, no matter how unrelated it is to the topic at hand. You seem to be enjoying the fruits of this conquest. If you don't like it, go back to your ancestor's country, wherever that is.
The history of the world is one people displacing another. If we are going to redress the wrongs in America, why don't we redress them worldwide back to the dawn of time, instead of singling America out as being somehow unique in this regard.
Back on topic. Yes, light pollution sucks. Go to the International Dark-Sky Association [darksky.org] site to see what you can do to curb it.
Re:Why the line in USA? (Score:1)
Re:Living in a tiny bright spot is the best! (Score:1)
Re:This is an outrage! (Score:2)
I have friends who grew up here, who never saw a proper night sky. I convinced one of them to drive up a nearby mountain with myself and a couple of friends. She stepped out of the car and then stepped right back in, terrified by the stars.
There aren't any lights shining directly into my window. But I still can't sleep without the curtains drawn.
Mockingbirds start singing at 2 A.M.
Staples Center decorates itself with blue lights illuminating to top floor from below. You can see the blue light reflecting off the clouds, even if you drive two miles away and face away from Staples Center.
Reducing light pollution doesn't have to mean turning off lights. It can be as simple as installing a reflector above outdoor lights, so that light does not spill needlessly into the sky. This will also make your lights effectively brighter. Most cities are using shielded street lamps already, but I still see a lot of shopping malls and companies lighting their parking lots with un-shielded, 10,000W xenon lamps. That's just unnecessary.
Re:This is an outrage! (Score:1)
There is atmospheric distortion too. Let's get rid of all that air as well :-)
Don't worry, George W. Bush is taking care of this already.
Re:This is an outrage! (Score:1)
Colonel Sanders, prepare to transform the International Space Station into..... Mega Maid!
InigoMontoya(tm)
Re:light pollution, another liberal myth (Score:3, Insightful)
this "light pollution" is just a problem made up by do-gooders.
Well, it's mostly caused by wasted light. Most of the light that actually comes out of a street fixture goes straight up into the air, where it does no one any good. That's a tremendous amount of wasted energy. The light bulb's efficiency sucks already. But now we have to make it put out more light just to see what we're doing on the ground. When headlights (which on EVERY SUV in the country are TOO BRIGHT and pointed up TOO HIGH) shine into a driver's eyes, he has more trouble seeing the road. That's actually dangerous. There's a type of headlight that's made in Europe, (my car aficianado friends tell me) which focuses a far sharper cone on the road and works about a thousand times better. They are not permitted in the US because the DOT standard is "good enough."
All in all, light pollution, besides ruining the night sky for astronomers and amateurs alike, is a pretty important topic. Our energy costs could go down . . . oh yeah. I forgot, that would hurt the oil com^H^H^H^H^H^H^Heconomy.
SUVs & Insurance (Score:2)
I doubt econoboxes are driving insurance rates up. The insurance industry has gone back and forth over this (for higher rates: safety, theft [bsu.edu], higher liability [casact.org], cause more deaths, etc. [bostonherald.com]; against: safety for occupants [web-hosting.com]). Allstate and Progressive charge more for SUVs while State Farm gives them a discount. Given that they waste about $250 a month on ego [marketwatch.com]. For people to claim that SUVs are safer, they are only looking at from the aspect of being an SUV occupant in a crash. They are actually dangerous if you are in a car and are hit by one. Given that SUVs are less maneuverable and take longer to stop due to their mass, you probably have a better chance of avoiding an accident in a car. Since 85% of them aren't being used for what they are designed for, it is a waste. For most people, having a SUV in a metro area is just plain DUMB (let's have one person commute ina 10-15mpg vehicle, take up two parking spaces, or can't fit in some parking garages [a guy at work can't park his Excursion in the garage because it's too tall]). I can think of better things to spend my money on.
Re:BUS / tractor-trailer lights are higher than SU (Score:3, Insightful)
driving up auto insurance rates by making yourselves more vulnerable to injury
Wow. Let me tell you a story about four fucking wheel drive. About ten years ago, I was driving through Kansas in November or so. Doing 70 mph, we drove onto an inch-thick sheet of ice, rather suddenly. The wind was chilling the road, and all the melting snow suddenly became solid. The car in front of me (just a car) started fishtailing. I tapped my brake ever so lightly, not yet realizing my peril, and I was fishtailing too. Well the car in front of me lost control and went off the right side of the road, flipped upside down, blew his front and rear windows out, and landed sitting upright. Screaming kids, stunned drivers. I went off to the left, but managed to keep the car upright, and safely stopped. The 18-wheel truck behind us managed to come to a safe stop as well.
After I talked to the driver of the car, and made sure they were all alive, we drove to the next town to call the police (this was before every pinhead had a cell phone in his back pocket) and for the next hundred miles I counted a four-wheel-drive vehicle tumbled over on the side of the road every three miles. I only saw one or two regular-sized cars. Almost without exception, the people who misjudged their driving abilities, their speed, and their car's traction, were driving a hopped-up SUV or light truck of one kind or another. I saw maybe three or four regular cars. The rest of us, not having this blind belief in the indestructibility of our vehicles, drove slowly and cautiously. But the SUV assholes roared past us all, and a good number of them ended up inverted in a ditch. So DON'T TELL ME about how your SUV is so fucking safe. I laughed as I drove past some of those people. I laughed the fuck out loud. You are buying the DELUSION of safety with an SUV.
My original post had nothing to do with the fitness of these cars. I just made a note that the lights were pointed higher than they needed to be. I will point out that I have yet to be blinded by the lights of a bus or 18-wheel truck. I think because they're correctly configured. It's as if the SUV designers sat down in a smaller car, right in front of the SUV, and designed the lights so that they could not help but annoy the driver in front of them.
People wouldn't hate SUV's so much if their designers and owners didn't make such a point of being arrogant about them. I can't tell you how I long to go up to a Jeep and paint in big bold letters on the back windshield: "No, it's a penis thing, and sadly, I do understand."
Re:BUS / tractor-trailer lights are higher than SU (Score:1)
They don't though, you have to *learn* how to drive something with 4wd. Not only that, but you need to know how to drive the kind of 4wd you have - obviously a Suzuki SJ or Landie will be completely different from a Quattro (or its rarer, but oddly cheaper cousins, the VW Syncro) or Scooby Impreza.
Re:BUS / tractor-trailer lights are higher than SU (Score:2)
That's a part of it. They *don't* learn. They just jump in it and drive it like they would a normal car w/o realizing that it is more likely to tip over due to the higher center of gravity or that it takes longer to stop because of the increased mass. I would see this all the time before the SUV craze with guys and their 4x4 pickups. Combine the over confidence produced by SUVs and the 80% greater chance that the occupants of a car hit by one will die, you can certainly see why many people don't like SUVs. Hell at least truck and bus drivers have to go through some form of training.
Re:BUS / tractor-trailer lights are higher than SU (Score:2)
But hey, "jealous of the well-to-do", "driving up auto insurance rates"... Thanks for spelling out your priorities in life. And I expect a thank you when you're allowed to keep up your lifestyle because someone else thought to fix the problems that threaten to end it.
Re:BUS / tractor-trailer lights are higher than SU (Score:2)
And then you'll lose, but they'll be no one left to be the victor. And with everyone treating this "arms race" like a sprint, they'll be the loser sooner than they think.
I want to win for a long time, but the way to win is not to destroy as quickly as possible.
Re:BUS / tractor-trailer lights are higher than SU (Score:2)
Hmm...They are spending 3-4 times the markup on a SUV and $250 more a month in operating costs than a comparable car. Given that 85% of them aren't being used for what they were designed, but as a commute/basic transportation vehicle instead, I would certainly say that their owners have more money than brains.
Re:light pollution, another liberal myth (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:light pollution, another liberal myth (Score:2, Interesting)
Well, I'm not a liberal (as my views -- not expressed here in detail -- on gun control and other issues would attest. But there's a bit off the human condition, the romance of the skies, that is destroyed by light polution. A story from my childhood:
I grew up on a farm in an area that, on the current referenced map, is light green. In the 1950's the area, like so many others, would have been black (had the technology for such an image existed).
It was corn harvest time in the midwest, a cold November night. I, a boy of about eight years, was holding the flashlight to help my father back up a wagon-load of corn to the elevator (to the urban dwellers, the term 'elevator' also refers to a sort of conveyor belt thing that lifts the grain to the top of the storage bin).
But boys will be boys (or, children, as it were -- no need to discriminate here), and the onyx sky overhead, embedded with diamonds, beckoned.
I knew at the time that the stars were far away, far farther that I could, at that time or any time within my reach, hope to travel. But I knew I could go there in spirit. And I knew a way...
I raised the flashlight and aimed it at a promising star; I then moved the beam outward in a spiral path to cover as much of the cosmos as possible. This gesture, I knew, would not redound to me in any way during this life.
But I knew then, and still know, that this beam -- four decades now on its illimitable tour -- still travels as _my_ message to other worlds.
And this, apart from astronomical considerations, is the magic that light polution destroys.
Re:light pollution, another liberal myth (Score:1)
On an other note; the anti-liberal(=arrested development) that started this thread forgets there is no difference between polution and waste, waste is not what we (according to most religeons) were set in this world for.
Re:Is this a case of creative manipulation? (Score:1)
I also have certain doubts about Europe.
The pictures of Europe were taken at a later date, and they subtracted 20% to compensate for that.
Sounds like a lot for a region where building new houses, roads or anything is nearly impossible due to all the legislation.
Re:Falkland Islands (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Falkland Islands (Score:2, Funny)