Moon Mission Anniversary 78
SEWilco writes: "As NASA points out, Friday May 25 2001 is the 40th anniversary of President John F. Kennedy's speech which set the goal to place men on the Moon within 10 years. Of course, we did land on the Moon in a few places. Although the small spacecraft could only carry two people to the surface, there is a group picture (from this silly page).
Few people considered that we might abandon it once we got there." mikeraz points out that the picture of the day is a Saturn V rocket, with plenty of other links too.
Re:ah, lunacy... (Score:2)
You sure you want to be in that sort of frame of mind for the rest of your life?
Space Activism is something we can *all* do. Space belongs to those who take it.
Another famous speech... (Score:1)
http://www.cs.umb.edu/jfklibrary/j091262.htm
Enjoy.
--Lenny
Apollo 13 (Score:1)
Re:And then... (Score:2)
I'm sorry, but there's two problems with this: First, knowlege is expanded through firsthand exploration of our environment, not through learning by rote under the tutelage of a severe and overdemanding schoolmistress. Second, space exploration pays dividends far above their cost. Expansion of knowlege helps every person, and that bends our trajectory towards that axis of perfection much faster than a self-imposed sequestering of humanity within the monestary we call Earth.
Re:And then... (Score:2)
Re:And then... (Score:2)
Then we are never going to get off this rock, ever. Sorry to burst your bubble but this rock will always have its problems. Don't get me wrong, I think we should continue to do our best to work out those problems and resolve them but I also believe we should explore our world around us.
Besides, don't you want to figure out what the heck all those monoliths were doing?
FOX Special (Score:3)
Notable guests providing testimony wil be some invetigative reporter somewhere, a man who used to pull weeds outside the Oval Office, and some guy that made a camera purchased by JFK.
SEE: The evidence NASA doesn't want you to see!
SEE: Our gardener provide observations that THE MOON IS NOT ALWAYS THERE AT NIGHT!
Only on FOX!
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Want to do something? Join the Moon Society! (Score:2)
Convinced we have to do it? Wondering why NASA has been ignoring the Moon most of the last 30 years? The Moon Society at http://www.moonsociety.org/ [moonsociety.org] was started this past year to provide a central grass-roots organization to advocate for lunar science and development, public or private. There's still a great need there for volunteer help - come join us and help make this happen, before another decade is out!
Re:The Question is when will we start Mining the M (Score:1)
Other stuff we'd mine from the Moon because for use in space because it's much easier to get things to space from the Moon than from Earth. There's plenty of aluminum and titanium, both of which we already use in space. And there are a lot of oxides.
Clementine data [hawaii.edu] shows where there are iron deposits, of up to 20% iron oxide. That's a low-grade taconite, although the processing techniques used on Earth would probably have to be modified for lunar gravity. Northern Minnesota has been mining taconite for a while. I don't know how hard it will be to find all the ingredients for steel on the Moon.
New Lunar Prospector studies [lanl.gov] suggest that the Clementine data is correct in location, but might be overestimating the abundance. Well, if we want to mine we'll be doing more prospecting -- at least we have LP maps [nasa.gov] and Clementine maps [lanl.gov].
Re:The Question is when will we start Mining the M (Score:1)
The simplest solution is probably the same one used on Earth: use biological processes to concentrate them. Get some plants growing in a mix which includes lunar material and they'll remove trace amounts of minerals from it, including carbon and calcium. It will take a lot of growing to get significant amounts of minerals extracted. Good thing that aluminum and titanium can be used in many low-gravity applications. Making that first canyon-spanning six-lane moon-buggy freeway bridge may take a while.
Re:Tidal forces, not simple gravity (Score:1)
Well, it would if it weren't for the compensating tidal effect of the moon pulling on the earth as it orbits. Given that the effect of the moon is stronger, my guess is that we'd end up with one side of the earth following the moon first... then the two would slow down until the earth had one side following the moon.
Hmm... then the two would slow down as a lockstep pair, until the moon fell into the earth....
This, of course, presumes that the ocean doesn't evaporate first.
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Fake moon landing? (Score:1)
It would be easy enough to determine this for once and for all..... look at the (purported) videos of the astronauts on the moon. Sometimes they kick up dirt as they jump around. Calculate what the path of that dust would be.. It's supposedly in a vaccum, so it should follow a very newtonian curve --- but much more shallow than on the earth.
I think that later flights had two cameras (one video and one film) so you might even be able to use the stereo effect to pinpoint moving objects very accurately).
This is actually verifiable physics. They might be able to fake a moon parabolic curve for something like the golf ball (one astronaut supposedly took a golf ball to the moon and holds the record for the longest shot because of the lighter gravity), but the computation power didn't exist back then to do it to the moving pictures of dust that the astronauts kicked up. One way or the other, THAT should prove which sphere those astronauts were on.
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Re:This saddens me. (Score:1)
When we come up with a lift technology that costs less than the payback, it will happen rapidly and in a big way.
Re:This saddens me. (Score:1)
OTOH, I never wanted a videophone, and still don't.
Re:To infinity, and beyond! (Score:2)
It works in reverse, too, the earth's rotation has been slowing down over time, so the day is longer now than it was, say, during the Triassic or Permian or .
:Michael
for those who need convincing... (Score:3)
It has been posted here before, but the site Bad Astronomy [badastronomy.com] has some great information on combatting the people who believe that the landings were faked. Most of the information is laid out in a good manner that is easy to understand, partic for third parties you point to the site.
We? (Score:1)
I see this verry often here at slashdot that you cannot express then difference between the two in a correct and informative way.
As I am not apart of the population that makes up the USA I tend to get a sickening fealing in my stomach everytime I am refered to as an american.
The Moon Landing was a FAKE! (Score:1)
You see, we had been on the moon even before JFK made that speech, but I'll tell you, the moon isn't what you think it is. I can't tell you what its actually like because well, because!
Anyway, Richard Nixon got involved and they faked it so that the masses would be satified, and yet no one would no the horrible secret. Only Hello Kitty protects us from what really lies on the moon.
Very sad picture (Score:1)
I loved the 'silly picture' - a composite of all the astronauts on the moon. But I really felt quite upset about it. Couldn't work out why.
Then it struck me, I was disconcerted by the realistic-looking image of many astronauts on the moon's surface together like that, as if they were really there. Made me realise how sad it was - I am so used to seeing photos of isolated individuals on the moon lost in the great landscape, I am just not used the concept of a dozen astronauts on the moon at once. How sad is this? 30 years later and the dreams of gradually inhabiting the moon have come to nothing, we can't conceptualise the idea of a dozen people on the moon at once. It's just beyond practicality. I am sure the guys who worked on the Apollo missions must be bitterly disappointed all their work ended up just being an expensive Cold War stunt.Re:And then... (Score:1)
You can have as many scientific and technological breakthroughs as you'd like, but we'd still have the same lack of morals, ethics and willingess to work for the collective. We're egoistic, all we think about is ourselves. Even when we care for family and colleagues. If you just stop once in a while in your day-to-day life, and notice who you're really thinking about, you'll see too.
This doesn't work. In order to have a well-directed and healthy society, it's habitants MUST care for it. There's nothing out there in space that can do it for us. However, that care needs energy, and cannot really sustain by itself over time (due to friction). That is where I believe spirituality (breath-excersises, yoga, meditation, etc) comes into play. But negativity is what keeps people from breaking out of their circle, until they're fed up.
- Steeltoe
Re:Question (Score:2)
I don't believe so. I think you run into fundamental problems related to the wavelength of light when you try to go for that kind of magnification. Some sort of distributed adaptive optical system might be able to pull it off, but it would cost more than shipping all the skeptics up there to see for themselves.
Re:And then... (Score:1)
Re:And then... (Score:2)
Let's just say that it's an appearance-versus-reality thing, and most people consider appearance extremely important. It's called superficiality. Take, for example, lawn-mowing. We cut back on our oxygen-producing grass because it looks better. Period. But are "ugly" yards a real problem?
And then... (Score:3)
Maybe Agent Smith was right... Maybe we are a virus.
The Question is when will we start Mining the Moon (Score:1)
Re:Does anyone believe this stuff? (Score:1)
Re:Does anyone believe this stuff? (Score:1)
We ARE the Problem.... (Score:1)
No question that economics drives most migration and colonization. But someone still must go exploring first in order to discover the new lands.
Sometimes those explorers are driven by crass and antastic dreams of wealth, sometimes by idealistic visions. In either category, the human race seems to be following short. The 20th Century has a lot to answer for in terms of lives sacrificed in wars spawned by hate and malice, but we also have a lot to answer for because of our collective small-minded loss of nerve.
Re:There could be Oil on the Moon (Score:1)
It would be a fantastic scientific discovery if oil were found on the moon... one of those few and far between "this changes everything" moments. We have evidence of fairly complex hydrocarbons in space, but oil would be another matter entirely. I'm sincerely dubious, but I won't dismiss the idea until someone digs a deep enough hole on the moon.
I think we will be back bigtime in 15-20 years (Score:2)
Space isn't much more expensive than air travel in fact- it just looks it right now because we don't go there much- everything has to be hand made and most programs are run by governments; who aren't noted for their efficiency.
Raise the launch rate (and its growing 15% a year, year on year and has done for a decade or so) and the costs come down very nicely. The minimum costs are probably fuel. But we are currently nowhere near fuel costs dominating. If they did then a trip to space would only cost a few thousand per person...
The next people to go to the moon in any number will be tourism related I think. As an example of something cool to do there; imagine human powered flight (Gossamer Albatross can fly under 1g at atmospheric pressure, imagine 1/6g at atmospheric pressure -in a dome...)
Re:The Question is when will we start Mining the M (Score:2)
a) You're assuming you want to send the materials back to the earth. For a Mars mission you wouldn't want to do this.
b) the crust certainly isn't lacking metals- there's plenty of iron, aluminium, titanium etc; see Permanents list of minerals on the moon [permanent.com]. And they are already oxides. For several reasons they are probably easier to separate in space (some techniques like fractional distillation of the oxides[!] are easier there due to ready availability of solar energy and the micro gravity.)
c) the moon is short of volatiles (especially hydrogen and carbon) however; there does seem to be a supply of hydrogen in some form at the poles, and there is speculation that it might contain carbon too.
d) Imagine it was back in the 15 century: "why would we want to go to the west indies? There's nothing there we haven't got plenty of...". In point of fact there's more stuff in space than down here on earth (particularly solar energy.)
Re:A few thousand? Get real (Score:2)
Check out space and tech launch data [spaceandtech.com]. Soyuz has a 30:1 launch mass:payload ratio. most of which is going to be fuel; and that's an old multistager and not at all cutting edge.
Besides, fuel is cheap (government tax notwithstanding.) Fuel costs are much less than 1% of rocketry costs right now. The rest goes into the armies of people needed to launch these things. Thing is, the armies don't get much bigger when you launch much more often - they are fixed costs and the unit costs are very much lower.
Re:I think we will be back bigtime in 15-20 years (Score:2)
Do you have a citation for your statement that most of the space shuttle costs are fuel? I'm sorry but I suggest you check that out. The highest expense is the wages of the people that were needed to design and build the orbiters by a very, very long way.
p.s. a space shuttle launch actually is more like 100 million per launch. The figure of a 1 to 1.5 billion allows for the very high costs incurred during its development; they've been divided over the expected number of launches; and they don't expect to launch often enough to make it cheaper.
To pick a number at the other end of the spectrum, the Russian Proton V rocket costs them more like $5m per launch, but they charge $80m to help pay for their space program. Its not nearly as good as the Space Shuttle, but it has similarish payload.
If you do the maths as I have you find that the space shuttle is almost an order of magnitude more expensive per pound.
Re:The Question is when will we start Mining the M (Score:2)
Tritium isn't much use currently. Its supposed to be useful for nuclear fusion. But nobody knows how to make controlled nuclear fusion work, and personally I'm quite skeptical it will ever work economically. Still, you never know. Tokomaks might fly.
Re:The Question is when will we start Mining the M (Score:2)
But it does turn into carbon dioxide. It should be possible to use plants to turn the carbon dioxide back into carbon again; although that becomes a rate limiting step in the blast furnace.
So you only need enough carbon to top up the losses, with luck the plants might liberate enough for that as well, or it might need special processing like fractional distillation of the rock to extract that carbonates.
I haven't investigated the Calcium bit, perhaps that could be recycled somehow as well?
Re:To infinity, and beyond! (Score:1)
--
I hit the karma cap, now do I gain enlightenment?
Tidal forces, not simple gravity (Score:3)
In fact, gravity simply pulling on Moon would have no effect, if there were no complications from tidal forces. This is easier to understand in the case of Earth:
The gravitational attraction of Sun on Earth is stronger on the side closer to Sun. Therefore, the oceans bulge towards Sun. (The same thing happens due to Moon even more notably.) Because Earth rotates at a rate different from its orbiting around Sun, the bulge moves relative to Earth. But there are dissipative forces, i.e. viscosity of the water, which gradually slows down this relative motion. Hence in a very distant future, Earth will have permanent dark and light sides.
The same effect can occur even when there is no ocean (there may have been some on Moon), because planets are not made of infinitely rigid/elastic material. (Elastic meaning that there are no viscous, dissipative forces.) It is generally believed that this process has slowed down the rotation of Moon to match its orbiting around Earth.
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I hit the karma cap, now do I gain enlightenment?
The real mystery... (Score:1)
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History of the Space Program (Score:5)
Wonderful stuff to pick through.
Check out the Vinny the Vampire [eplugz.com] comic strip
Billy Bragg said it best by far. (Score:2)
I'm going to walk on the Moon someday
Armstrong and Aldrin spoke to me
From Houston and Cape Kennedy
And I watched the Eagle landing
On a night when the Moon was full
And as it tugged at the tides, I knew deep inside
I too could feel its pull
I lay in my bed and dreamed I walked
On the Sea of Tranquillity
I knew that someday soon we'd all sail to the moon
On the high tide of technology
But the dreams have all been taken
And the window seats taken too
And 2001 has almost come and gone
What am I supposed to do?
Now that the space race is over
It's been and it's gone and
I'll never get to the moon
Because the space race is over
And I can't help but feel
We've all grown up too soon
Now my dreams have all been shattered
And my wings are tattered too
And I can still fly but not half as high
As once I wanted to
Now that the space race is over
It's been and it's gone and
I'll never get to the moon
Because the space race is over
And I can't help but feel
We've all grown up too soon
My son and I stand beneath the great night sky
And gaze up in wonder
I tell him the tale of Apollo And he says
"Why did they ever go?"
It may look like some empty gesture
To go all that way just to come back
But don't offer me a place out in cyberspace
Cos where in the hell's that at?
Now that the space race is over
It's been and it's gone and
I'll never get out of my room
Because the space race is over
And I can't help but feel
We're all just going nowhere...
-- The Space Race is Over, from William Bloke, 1996
Re:To infinity, and beyond! (Score:1)
Re:This would be really interesting (Score:1)
40 years later... (Score:1)
GREEN CHEESE
-- .sig are belong to us!
All your
Re:Does anyone believe this stuff? (Score:1)
The truth is: The money was all spent on a toilet seat and a quarter roll of toilet paper.
Go see The Dish a great, awesome movie. I'll be getting this one on DVD when it comes out! (and, no, you can't borrow it!)
-- .sig are belong to us!
All your
Re:The Question is when will we start Mining the M (Score:2)
Most likely any minerals to gain from the moon are already on earth in sufficient and far less expensice quantities. Same for Mars.
Thank you for visiting Mars Please empty your shoes of sand before departing.
-- .sig are belong to us!
All your
Re:How to survive the budget axe. (Score:2)
Logic: The superior political system will land the first man on the moon.
Gotta love them 60's.
-- .sig are belong to us!
All your
Re:The Question is when will we start Mining the M (Score:1)
hyacinthus.
Some of us are trying to get back (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1)
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Re:I think we will be back bigtime in 15-20 years (Score:1)
Re:Does anyone believe this stuff? (Score:1)
We never went to the moon! (Score:1)
Re:This saddens me. (Score:2)
Calling Captain Quark!
--Blair
"And Ficus Pederata, and Gene/Jean, and, oh yes, the Two Bettys..."
P.S. The pretty one is the clone. [primenet.com]
Pig Capsule (Score:3)
--Blair
Re:The Question is when will we start Mining the M (Score:1)
Try Tasmin Archer or Dan Simmons... (Score:2)
For a really great read, albeit a fictional one, I really enjoyed Dan Simmons, 'Phases of Gravity'. It's the story of what happened to a fictional crew of three in the Apollo program, years after they returned to Earth. Kind of like the 'American Beauty' of the Space Race.
Sleeping Satellite
Tasmin Archer
I blame you for the moonlit sky
and the dream that died
with the eagles flight
I blame you for the moonlit nights
when I wonder why
are the seas still dry?
don't blame this sleeping satellite
Did we fly to the moon too soon?
did we squander the chance?
in the rush of the race
the reason we chase is lost romance
and still we try
to justify the waste
for a taste of mans greatest adventure
I blame you for the moonlit sky
and the dream that died
with the eagles flight
I blame you for the moonlit nights
when I wonder why
are the seas still dry?
don't blame this sleeping satellite
Have we got what it takes to advance?
did we peak too soon
if the world is so green
then why does it scream under a blue moon?
we wonder why
the earth's sacrificed
for the price of its greatest treasure
I blame you for the moonlit sky
and the dream that died
with the eagles flight
I blame you for the moonlit nights
when I wonder why
are the seas still dry?
don't blame this sleeping satellite
And when we shoot for the stars
what a giant step
have we got what it takes
to carry the weight of this concept?
Or pass it by
like a shot in the dark
miss the mark with a sense of adventure
I blame you for the moonlit sky
and the dream that died
with the eagles flight
I blame you for the moonlit nights
when I wonder why
are the seas still dry?
don't blame this sleeping satellite
-Dr. Wu
Re:This saddens me. (Score:3)
I'm a huge proponent of the US space program, but let's face it. The enormous cost of sending a man to the moon should be enough to show us that the US would not have bothered if there had not been the intense competition for propaganda rights with the Soviet Union. If the Soviet Union had not existed in the '50s and '60s, there would not have been a US lunar program then.
Why am I saying this? Because it's true. Today, the cost to put anything into low Earth orbit is about $10,000 per pound. Until that cost falls by a factor of 10 or more, NASA will continue to scratch for the money to conduct any sort of space exploration and the moon and Mars will be out of reach for manned missions.
Kubrick [filmmakers.com] and Clarke [bbc.co.uk] looked at the rate of progress of space exploration in the '50s and '60s and extrapolated that by now, we'd have giant orbiting space stations that rotated to produce artificial gravity. They imagined we'd have the wherewithal to send an enormous manned spacecraft to Jupiter (Saturn in the book).
So, why don't we have any of those things? Ironically, it has less to do with current launch costs than with the economics of demand for commercial space launch and what's known as a "demand plateau." A recent study [space-access.org] showed that demand for space launch capability is in a plateau region where reducing costs will not significantly increase demand until costs fall by a factor of 20 or more. In other words, there's a disincentive for commercial launch companies to reduce launch costs unless they can radically slash launch costs.
And don't even get me started on the dangers of orbital debris [nasa.gov]....
Re:To infinity, and beyond! (Score:1)
That's easily explained by the anthropic principle. It's much more likely to get land-based life forms on a planet with large tidal activity (when the tide recedes, fish need to evolve lungs).
Large tides need large lunar mass. But multiple large moons would likely form unstable orbits that interfere with each other. Therefore, one large moon.
Q.E.D.
Re:Does anyone believe this stuff? (Score:1)
There is no proof that amateur telescopes exist.
Ham operators could pick up the radio signals -- and anyone with a dish could check the direction it came from.
There is no evidence that ham operators exist. There is no proof that a dish can monitor anything
That certainly includes the Soviets, who would have loved to have caught us faking it.
There is zero evidence that there was a "cold war", or that the SOVIETS UNION EVEN EXISTED.
Thousands of men worked on the rockets. Tens of thousands of bean counters checked that all that money was being spent properly (especially on bean counters).
WHAT BEANS??? WHAT COUNTERS???? WHERE'S THE PROOF!!???
No way could that many Americans keep a secret!
HOW CAN A NON-EXISTENT NATION EVEN HAVE SECRETS TO KEEP????? FACE IT: YOU HAVE NO PROOF!!!!!!!!!
(Actually, my sig is relevant to this topic if you think about it)
Re:Another famous speech... (Score:1)
We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win ...
I have this quote on my wall. Helps with those days when the studies get tough.
If you've seen From the Earth to the Moon, the footage of that quote is at the beginning of each episode.
Already done. (Score:3)
these days no politician would dare make a speech like JFK did.
Already done. President Bush (the senior) challenged the nation to land a man on Mars by 2015. Neil Armstrong issued a similar challenge a year ago on the 30th anniversary of the lunar landings.
Unfortunately, that's not enough. In 1961 there was an unusual combination of a charismatic leader (Kennedy), a clear goal (the moon), and a hated arch-rival (the USSR) to generate the required political will.
If single stage to orbit technologies become a reality, thereby dramatically reducing launch costs, my opinion is that we will see privately funded expeditions to the moon within our lifetimes, much like we see privately funded expeditions to Everest, the south pole, and elsewhere today. NASA be damned.
Funny picture (Score:1)
Re:The Question is when will we start Mining the M (Score:1)
Re:The Question is when will we start Mining the M (Score:1)
Even more interesting is how this private company would be able to sell their stuff back on Earth. If your cargo ship landed in, say, Canada, what would prevent the Canadian government from immediately claiming that the ship and all its cargo belongs to them?
Re:And then... (Score:1)
No, no, no. The reason is even more simple. We found out it is made of cheese!
Gack!
What could be more off-putting than an enormous globe of rotten milk hanging over our heads? gack gack gack.
There could be Oil on the Moon (Score:1)
Re:There could be Oil on the Moon (Score:1)
Re:The Question is when will we start Mining the M (Score:1)
>are already on earth in sufficient and far less expensice quantities
Not true. Helium-3 is a typical example [digistar.mb.ca].
Re:No one has gone to the moon yet. (Score:1)
That said...
Simple... we went to the moon for political reasons, to say we did so, to top the commies, etc. It would also be insanely expensive to maintain, as food would have to be shipped there. It would take probably two orders of magnitude more money than we are currently spending on the space program JUST to support such a station. the money would be better spent elsewhere.
Basically the same reasons as I just mentioned. There is a very large difference between a great shot of neptune and a shot of the moon with details. Neptune, a pixel could be a square mile and it would look very very good, but a square foot pixel wouldn't give a good shot of artifacts on the moon.
That said, there is a nice tangible observable thing left on the moon that can be observed... a mirror. I remember reading somewhere about a laser being shined at this mirror and reflected into an observatory. (anyone have links?)
In any case, I think the most convincing piece of proof that we did go there was the parabolic arcs [badastronomy.com] of the dust. There is no real possible way to do this without revolutionary new (but 30 years old) classified technology, and if you allow for that, you can't refute anything.
(/trollrespond)
ah, lunacy... (Score:3)
Someone famous, powerful, or beautiful needs to outline the benefits of doing space things, outside of the fact that the pictures are pretty, am I right? I don't fit the above mentioned criteria, otherwise I'd make known the technological advances NASA has brought about trying to improve our space-lives. America has lost it's idealism, that's no surprise, it's just nice to look back and know that the time period we had it in is still admired.
Until then, my generation has to wait for something like this [wherewereyou.com] to capture our imagination again.
To infinity, and beyond! (Score:1)
Re:And then... (Score:2)
The reason we've decided that going to the moon isn't worth the time and effort anymore is rather simple.
We found out it wasn't made of cheese.
:)
Re:The Question is when will we start Mining the M (Score:1)
Re:Want to do something? Join the Moon Society! (Score:1)