NASA Controls Jet With Nerve Signals 175
__roo writes: "According to this press release, NASA scientists were able to control a 757 jumbo jet simulation using neurolectric machine control -- muscle-nerve signals fed to a computer, which used a neural net to learn how to interpret the signals. The first prototype armband was made from exercise tights, and used metallic dress-buttons as dry electrodes. This page has high resolution photos of the device."
Re:Mind Control (Score:1)
Access to the same information does not equate to the same education. If you don't have someone who can properly feed you the information in a way that you can understand, having all the information in the universe isn't going to help you one bit. And knowing a lot of trivia does not make you educated either. It just means you know a lot of shit, but doesn't mean you understand any of it.
Fear my low SlashID! (bidding starts at $500)
Re:remote control for emergency landing? (Score:1)
This also requires a high-quality, high-bandwidth low-latency wireless connection (no satellite bounces).
Doing this on models is hard enough, much less a modern widebody. And it's usefulness would be restricted to 'Airplane'-type scenarios (Don't eat the fish!) where both pilots are incapacitated without affecting the primary systems. Maybe in a highjacking situation (with ground-based override? There would be SOME way to turn it off unless they integrate it into the flight control computer on a fly-by-wire craft. Plus you then open yourself to highjacking from the GROUND. Lol.)
Day Of The Cheetah (Score:1)
Re:remote control for emergency landing? (Score:1)
Re:Not on my plane you don't (Score:1)
As for Karma Whoring, so sorry to those with sour grapes, but I just say what I think. Been at this for, oh, many months, and still ain't nowhere near massive Karma, so if I'm a KW I must suck pretty bad.
Let me squash this nit (Score:1)
This is a title reserved usually for 747s.
Re:remote control for emergency landing? (Score:1)
Pilots nowadays are only used for three things:
Great Tool (Score:1)
Glad I read the article. (Score:1)
What about the physical resistance to movements a control stick offers? Having never flown a 757, I can't comment first hand, but isn't the "feel" of the stick one way in which a pilot is able to keep aware of the condition/movement of the plane? On the other hand, perhaps this sort of thing would give better control to the pilot, who could concentrate less on just holding on to the controls, and more on controlling the plane in an emergency. Perhaps a dual system? Physical stick and neural armband, each as a back-up to the other, pilots choice on which to use as primary control device?
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Re:Mind Control (Score:1)
Of course. But I was responding to speculation that this kind of tech. (well, more specifically more advanced stuff like direct mind-computer links) will become pervasive throughout everyday life.
Re:Porn... (Score:1)
-B
I remember watching... (Score:1)
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Re:remote control for emergency landing? (Score:1)
Re:remote control for emergency landing? (Score:1)
Re:(OT) your sig (Score:1)
Any technology indistinguishable from magic ==
any technology which cannot be perceived (/classified) differently from magic
is insufficently advanced.
The point being that it is a refutation of the original quote: sufficiently advanced technology would, of necessity, be well understood and explainable to the last microscopic detail. An insufficiently advanced technology is one where there are many unexplained questions and 'magical' effects. The technology of electrical capacitance was insufficiently advanced in ancient times -- capacitors were holy objects with the power to hurt and kill.
Programming on an old, bizarre, system with many acts of 'black magic' is another example of technology, or more generally, knowledge, that is insufficiently advanced -- as it is only partly understood, and therefore 'magical'.
Memory could not be "read"... (Score:1)
"spice" filled chambers (Score:1)
seibed
Hmm... (Score:1)
Re:Neural networks (Score:1)
And as for the 'sliding' issue, that's one of the reasons why they use a neural net in the first place: it can adapt to changes in signal characteristics. They've done similar things with genetic algorythms before.
I think.. (Score:1)
But, if / when we succeed in that... mouhahahaha.. Perhaps some sort of CNS nerve tap? .. gotta figure a way to do it that doesn't require surgery more complex than getting a pierced ear.
Perhaps a neural net could be trained to learn how to input signals rather than interpret outputs? A sufficiently powerful, changing magnetic field can induce a change in charge within a conductor (this is how nerve inductors work), but they suck (bulky, power hogs, heat, crappy resolution).
Re:Mind Control (Score:1)
maybe its the start of too much specialization, and that we will all forget how to do mundane things, and then when we all forget how to do everything, the empire will collpase, and then some place called a "foundation" will set up a pseudo religion and make everyuthing okee dokee....
tagline
movie (Score:1)
Re:movie (Score:1)
Re:Mind Control (Score:1)
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The movie is Firefox (Score:1)
You can find it in the Internet Movie Database [imdb.com].
OT: joystick names (Score:1)
(and i am not making this up, look at the thing in a store some time)
'Saitek Cyborg 3D USB Gold'.
I laughed so hard I about shat my pants when I saw an ad for it in pc gamer.
Re:Oooh boy...how original (Score:1)
Re:Macross Plus (Score:1)
Re:Mind Control - realistically(?) (Score:1)
A neural net is simply a nonlinear function fitter, after all; it takes a vector of inputs and produces output(s), based on preselected, preferably at least locally differentiable nonlinear functions of weighted combinations of inputs -- with the weights being what's trained. If you have enough nodes in a couple of hidden layers, and useful inputs, AND enough training time, you can have enough degrees of freedom for the fitting to work well.
But you need to find the appropriate inputs, which since it's meant for conscious control, means you need to find neurons which can be consciously influenced. That's probably harder, much harder, in the CNS than for nerves that control voluntary muscle movements, because we *have* largely voluntary control over most of our muscles (excluding reflex arcs and so forth), and since the nerves that trigger muscle movements aren't hard to find, compared to individual neurons in the brain.
Re:movie (Score:1)
I do realise that there is a difference between translating. Because I don't speak any other languages well, I have to think in English then translate. My multi-lingual friends (most of whom have Englsh as a second language) tell me they think in the language they are speaking at the time. Some of them even dream in different languages.
Re:movie (Score:1)
Re:Oh scary........ (Score:1)
i hope they patented it (Score:1)
anyway, this is certainly great if the pilot looses both hands during combat/flirting with the stewardess/repairing device xyz/whatever...
I just want this for my remote control, pressing a finger for those quick channel flicks is just too much work
Prior Art (Score:1)
Check out Stelarc's work [va.com.au] ...
Finally... (Score:1)
"Uh...sorry honey, I just hit a bogus link and the browser went wild! No, no I have no idea what goatse.cx stands for. Isn't it some foreign dish? "Uh-oh"?? It's...umm... it's a site for helping guys with stress I think..."
--Clay
Re:(OT) your sig (Score:1)
No it doesn't. He's wrong, but so is this explanation of why. Your orignal point still stands, unless he's trying to make the point that a really really advanced technology would seem better than magic. If so, then it's just silly.
Re:Oooh boy...how original (Score:1)
Hmm, all I need now is a few non-geek applications <sef>
[1] Although AFAIAA LRDs haven't got this far... yet.
Re:Oooh boy...how original (Score:1)
Liar! The Wizard [imdb.com], the 90-minute Nintendo commercial which I believe was the first real advertisement of the Power Glove, continues to be one of my greatest childhood memories.
THE POWER GLOVE!
Re:So this pilot walks into a bar... (Score:1)
Ha ha. yuck, yuck, yuck
Re:Mind Control (Score:2)
the next step (Score:2)
"But you must THINK. . . in Russian."
Re:How hobbyist friendly is this field? (Score:2)
Good luck with it.
ahh no.. (Score:2)
Takeover for a minute... (Score:2)
Offhand, I'd suggest that every crewer capable of flying the plane would be fitted with their own "neural device" prior to take off, with either the onboard computer calibrated for each pilot, or a calibration-on-a-chip type of thing, where the pilots neural patterns are stored in the armband, and activated when plugged in. Then it would be a simple matter of plugging the lead from the "device" into the computer, flicking a switch and away you go.
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Re:Oh scary........ (Score:2)
It's the should part that I find scary. I've done some work with neural nets. Machine learning is not like other stuff you've worked with. It is not deterministic. You can't say with 100% accuracy that any non-trivial output is correct. Neural nets just don't work that way. Straight C code can at least be understood, even if exhaustive proof of correctness is beyond most Q&A department. Very few people can understand even the simplest neual net.
Re:(OT) your sig (Score:2)
Re:Oooh boy...how original (Score:2)
There would be many disadvantages to using non-muscular impulses. On the not-so-serious side, what if the pilot has a vision of the plane crashing? That would suck. But by using muscular impulses, the pilot need not learn anything new. In addition, he/she would have greater control over the airplane. Also, accidents would be greatly reduced due to the fact that there are fewer mechanical devices. The neural net learns your motions, so any excessive movement would be cancelled-out by the computer. It can also re-learn if parts of the plane become disabled.
Neural networks (Score:2)
And what if, say, a stewardess given the pilot his coffee bumps him, and causes the plane to spiral out of the control? There is something to be said for good old fashioned mechanical controls.
Re:Mind Control (Score:2)
Well, it's kind of absurd to argue about something this far off, but it seems to me that everyone would know the same things, to the extent that now, everyone has access to the same things on the Web. But there's a difference between having access to the text of "The Cathedral and the Bazaar", and fulling understand all of its implications. That's why I said that I think humanity will focus on understanding and mastering. So society can still be stratified-- by how quickly understanding comes to each person.
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Re:Dream on (Score:2)
Cochlear ear implants already exist that interface directly to nerves. This removes the requirements for muscle movement, so mass doesn't need to be accelerated, so the bandwidth should be higher than normal humans' typing rates.
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Re:Oh scary........ (Score:2)
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Re:Dream on (Score:2)
And yes, neurons in the CNS [btinternet.com] are a little different than ones in the PNS [btinternet.com]. But not enough to make a difference, especially once you've put electrodes into them, because they both use the sodium/potassium/etc. ions for electrical signalling.
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Re:Oooh boy...how original (Score:2)
I don't get it.
Re:Uh, you're joking, right? (Score:2)
Nah, it'd never happen.
Re:Neural networks (Score:2)
You can even write down the overall behavior of an output node as a single equation of an inputs -- it just might not be that enlightening in terms of understanding WHY it chose those weights.
Feedback? (Score:2)
Electrical or sonic stimulation for instance? Feedback would bring the user "into the neural net", and would probably assist in learning how to use the interface & speeding up the user's reactions quite a bit!
The one failure they didn't test... (Score:2)
Re:Oh scary........ (Score:2)
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
how long... (Score:2)
Intellimouse, schmellimouse! I want electrodes hooked up to my USB port, dammit!
But above all the question is: Who will volunteer to port this to 2.4.2??
Re:Mind Control (Score:2)
Oh, and one more thing... a "jumbo jet" is a 747. Despite the higher number, a 757 is relatively dinky. Single-aisle, and all.
Re:A few problems with that.... (Score:2)
That sort of thing makes the FAA very unhappy. Not to mention the airline, since the guys can't fly until they test clean...
Re:A little "over use" of quotes? (Score:2)
Wider uses & tactile feedback (Score:2)
People with degenerative muscle conditions can benefit from this technology as it removes the physical barriers from controlling devices.
On another note.....
Ever played a flight or driving sim. Remember how bad you were to start off with? The feedback level from the joystick/wheel is a poor substitute for the real thing.
When driving or riding I use the sensations I receive back through the wheel or bars to correct my driving/riding/flying.
So how remote of a sensation would flying a plane be if you lose this link? The PR talks about the system being used without any tactile feedback.
So to compensate would a pilot be best grabbing a joystick, whether real or not, and using this as a tactile prop.
And then we are back to square one.... joystick/yoke control :)
Re:Mind Control (Score:2)
"The day an unemployed iron worker can lay in his barka-lounger and fuck Claudia Schiffer for $19.95, it'll make Crack look like fucking Sanka" --Dennis Miller
Re:Mind Control (Score:2)
Steven
(OT) your sig (Score:2)
"Any technology indistinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
But that doesn't make sense (nor is it funny as a joke). I think you meant 'distinguishable'... right?
Uh, you're joking, right? (Score:2)
Meaning that, unlike a cheap Power Glove, you are not limited to the degrees of freedom that your fingers and hand have. If you want to tap the muscular controls of your entire body, you can. If you want to tap into the muscles of just your arm, you can. If you just want the hand, you can. So it is already a superset of the powerglove. It would also mean that you aren't limited to on/off switches, but also the more analog like nature of muscle response over time and signal strength.
What use can the complex neural net have? Why not do an analogy?
We have fly by wire systems in which a computer device controls an aircraft and multiple control surfaces in ways and at rates that humans cannot, because there is too much information too process.
Not lets switch the direction of logic; you have a human controller, with much more sensitive and flexible control points than a Power Glove or joystick can sense. The neural net would allow one to almost directly map the human musculature to the airplane control surface, allowing both more control and higher reliability, without reducing flexibility or increasing complexity. It's not perfect, of course, but it's conceivable that all one needs to do is don a light slave suit and control a plane in the same way one would control rollerblades or skis; muscle control!
Geek dating! [bunnyhop.com]
Bad analogy! Bad! Bad! (Score:2)
The proper analogy is if we use the muscles to actually control/dictate the ABS system, the 4 wheel independent suspension (anticipating speedbumps and potholes with active control), and 4 wheel drive.
Geek dating! [bunnyhop.com]
Welcome to the Borg! (Score:2)
I wouldn't predict 'direct neural tapping' to be as mindblowing as you suggest.
If we all have our brains wired up to computers, they can perhaps become extensions of ourselves, the way a watch, a shoe, a sword can become an extension of a person.
But that does not mean we can become extensions of each other. People with quick and adaptable brains, in the neuro-plasticity sense, and not the smart and gifted sense, might be able to quickly learn how to communicate with each other, any more than two people from the same school speaking the same language are extensions of each other.
One would *still* have to interpret each person, the same way we interpret our vision, our sounds, our smells, our reality. We gain one more sensory organ, perhaps, but that's about it. We'd probably have to invent a synchronization language to allow ourselves to taste our SO's ice cream, but it still wouldn't mean *we* would be tasting it. It would probably still route it through our own taste centers, just that our two different taste centers may start to synchronize more.
Geek dating! [bunnyhop.com]
Re:How hobbyist friendly is this field? (Score:2)
I'm not sure. Remembering the halcyon days of 8-bit BBC Microcomputers, I remember we had some kind of thing set up where you could influence a point on the screen from a couple of electrodes taped to your skin. I don't think it was quite the same technology, but it did work to a degree. Details are foggy because I was only about 11 years old at the time ;-)
Porn... (Score:2)
Even the pictures on the site suggest it... notice the hands... [nasa.gov]
Stanford Mind-Control Mouse (Score:2)
No telling if they ever figured out how to click (or distinguish between right/left click, mousewheel, 3rd button, etc), but imagine the frag potential....
Force feedback (Score:2)
Seriously, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. How would you like to drive your car with no feedback at all? Holding on to an "air" steering wheel means that you have no feel for what the parts actually doing the work - the tires - are doing. What if there is a steering failure and the tires (or rudder) won't turn? How will you know? By looking at a display? Great, add that to the thousand other control items you have to look at in a cockpit.
We are just now getting to the point where fly/drive/control-by-wire systems are providing the necessary amount of feedback to the user to allow the user to gather the same information that was available in analog systems all along.
I think that this will be a great technology, but only if there is a compatible means of providing feedback to the user. All of the references to this type of technology in SF have always included force feedback as part of the equation.
Wow. (Score:2)
This is one step closer to the concept in sci-fi type stories where the vehicle is just an extension of your body. The plane/ship/space-vehicle/car just reacts to commands straight from your brain and eventually you get so used to the commands that it's just like using your own body. I know all the fears that a situation like that poses, but think of how cool it would be. Drag races with reaction times lower than ever thought possible simply because you don't have to wait for the signal to go from eye to brain to nerve, to muscle, to vehicle device, to vehicle drive. Instead it would go from eye to brain to vehicle and go!
Yeah, I know there would be better and more important ways to use it (think of dog-fights in the air or space with vehicles that are mind controlled), but drag-racing is in my family.;-).
I find this slightly unnerving... (Score:2)
Which makes me jittery...
Which gets picked up by the controller
Which makes the plane shake
Which makes me MORE nervous...oh what vicious cycle!
The ship who sang is getting closer (Score:3)
I can't belive I'm the only Anne McCaffery fan here. Surely someone else must remember Helva, Simon, and Tia. Here we are getting closer to the day when cripples can scout around the universe and noone remembers Science Fiction has perdicted it.
Re:Oh scary........ (Score:3)
(would YOU publicise this?)
Fighter pilots on long (8hr+) missions have been known to wear adult diapers.
Re:Uh, you're joking, right? (Score:3)
Why did I suddenly picture the pilot running around, holding his arms straight out to the side "flying"?
Re:Macross Plus (Score:3)
By definition, all theory is not "real". Macross plus had some interesting theories.
I am a bit confused on the moderation, 3? This comment is not relevant to the story at all.
One of the elements of the show is that there is a design competition between two designs, the YF-19 and the YF-21. One of the things that the YF-21 design had going for it was that it had an interface similar to the one mentioned in the story. The main difference is that the YF-21's interface didn't require the pilot to actually move any part of his body. He could simply "visualize" the whole aircraft as an extension of his body, and control it that way.Another thing worth mentioning, there was a scene where the YF-21's pilot visualized an easy way to kill the YF-19's pilot given the current circumstance. The YF-21's computer system took this as an order, and they YF-19's pilot was almost killed. This illustrates a potential danger in these kind of systems that the designers and/or users will have to be weary of.
Re:Mind Control (Score:3)
For some reason, I find the whole concept of this rather unsettling. I guess I don't like the idea of becoming overly dependant on a machine. What if the power goes out?
How hobbyist friendly is this field? (Score:3)
So here is my question: Does anybody that knows something in this field know of a source of information on this? Is the technology patented by somebody? How complex are the electronics, and are the algorythms for extracting the data public?
The reason i ask is because i've always wanted to be able to do this, now i don't want to land jets, or play quake, i have a much more modest application in mind, i'd like to be able to get several (as few as four would still kick ass, although up to 10 would be nice...) reproducable (you don't have to be able to reproduce them from memory, there will be a visual feedback mechanism, so you know what you are inputting now, and you can watch it change as you "move"). I don't really have a practical use for this, and i'm sure i'll _always_ be able to type faster than i can use this method, but i still think it's very cool.
So i guess if it's something i could concievable do for under $1000 assumming i already had microcontroller tools, a scope, prototyping tools, etc... (so i'm talking only parts, books, software that must be purchased, and oddball tools...)
Thanks, and i really hope i hear from somebody, because this has sort of been a dream of mine since i was about 12 years old =:-)
Oh great! (Score:3)
Stewardess bends over to pick somthing up, pilot gets a woodie, and plane goes into a nose dive!
:-(
Oh scary........ (Score:3)
good idea. (Score:3)
more recently I saw a product hyped up to "read your mind" you placed your finger on something, and was able to move a plane just by "thinking" about it. when in reality you we're subconsciously moving your finger the way you wanted to go, this kind trick is common in other applications.
The use of a neural net however is quite good. neural nets are currently used in speech recognition, and writing recognition. basically you say "here's some data, it means A", "here's some other data, it means B". the neural net will be able to tell the two apart and allow for a good degree of error. this is the jitz of it, I'm not really a student of the field.
so it makes sense to use a neural net for a task of "these muscles patterns mean move left", and so forth. I'm just surprised I didn't hear about that success of such an application till they landed a freakin jet with it! but then again slashdot is eregular about there coverage of things, i imagine cmdrtaco and gang turned down the previous articals leading up to this one.
-Jon
Streamripper [sourceforge.net]
remote control for emergency landing? (Score:3)
- tokengeekgrrl
"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions
Wow! (Score:3)
As for actual piloting or other safety-critical applications, though, I have to admit skepticism. Anything where fidgeting could actually result in death should probably be discouraged.
OK,
- B
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A few problems with that.... (Score:3)
Not on my plane you don't (Score:4)
This new technology is significant in that neuroelectric control of computers can replace computer keyboards, mice and joysticks for some uses
It's been stated flippantly by some other posters, but I really seriously hope none of these uses include safety-critical applications, either for the user or for the user's "clients" of whatever sort. The example of an airline pilot is a good one--is it really smart to think that a pilot will be able to keep his hand under *complete* control for the duration of a 4 hour cross country flight? Much less the much longer intercontinental flights? Can you imagine the difficulty of keeping your arm completely still during the period of stable flight? I suppose it wouldn't be *that* hard to cut in and out with the autopilot, but still....
Furthermore, one advantage sticks etc. have is they don't require you to be physically tethered to the control system. If a pilot today has some medical emergency, not only does the copilot have his/her own stick, but the pilot could be removed and any other person capable of flying the machine could very quickly take over. How long would it take 1) to move the electrodes and 2) train the neural net for another person?
This really does not seem like it would be a good technology for any kind of control system where you have human failsafes to protect safety.
So this pilot walks into a bar... (Score:4)
"I'll bet you $100 that I can, too land a plane with both hands behind my back!"
A little "over use" of quotes? (Score:4)
Scientists outfitted a "pilot" with an armband...
Hmmm... a little over doing it? Do you need to put the word "pilot" in quotes (well, I did just then, but then I needed to, because... Oh, forget it.
broader perspective (Score:4)
Secondly, let's look at what this is: a fundamentally new way of controlling a plane with the same old movements. It's exciting and innovative, but effectively the pilot is still flying in the same manner as he did before, although without a joystick in his hand. Fly-by-wire systems and positional sensors offer the same capability.
Ultimately though, this is the thin edge of the wedge. Make no mistake--this will lead to entirely new ways of interfacing with machines of all types, and may be the start of true virtual reality. (like the transistor was the start of the modern portable computer) This isn't a device - it's a technology.
The metric system. (Score:4)
All the time, he wonders when NASA will learn to convert to and from the English and SI system.
Re:Not on my plane you don't (Score:4)
You know, it *is* possible that the people working on this technology just MAY have thought of the same scenarios as those envisioned here.
How many people REALLY think the inventors of this technology expect a pilot to:
- Not move their hand except to control the airplane for X amount of hours.
- Not sneeze, scratch, or otherwise involuntarily move their hand.
I mean, sheesh!!! Give these people some credit for having common sense...
-thomas
Oooh boy...how original (Score:4)
Macross Plus (Score:4)
Re:Mind Control (Score:4)
The consequences of direct neural tapping are mind blowing, and in more than one sense. One question is that when everyone has their brains wired up to this tech and to the internet, everyone becomes educationally equal, and everyone can learn new skills very quickly. This technology is a step in the direction of a classless society.
You know exactly what to do-
Your kiss, your fingers on my thigh-
Watch out. (Score:5)
Can you imagine the pilot having too much coffee?
"Sorry folks for that wee bit of turbulence. I drank an extra cup of coffee today and I'm a little jittery"
Probably going to be the first plane crash due too caffiene.
Re:Oh scary........ (Score:5)
-sneeze
-scratch
-use the bathroom (extreme stress can cause electrical output to go all over the scale)
Dream on (Score:5)
Er, no. This is about muscular nerves. Picking out eight myoelectrical signals through (several?) cm of meat is no mean feat, but distinguishing what's going on in millions of ganglia through a skull? And that's merely considering the scale difference; I dimly recall the idea that muscular nerves were qualitatively different than the ones which we think with.
Mind Control (Score:5)
It would be just like walking... at first, interacting with the computer pack would be awkward, but after a while you'd do it without thinking, and it would become a part of you.
Just as the avilablility of an always-on DSL connection allows people to use mapquest rather than storing an atlas at their house, this technology will allow humans to forget the millions of trivial facts and focus on understanding and mastering skills.
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