DNA As Electrical Conductor 65
Tekkaman writes: "Britannica Online has an interesting article about a new discovery about DNA which may lead to huge advancements in nanotechnology. Apparently, scientists have discovered how to create 'DNA wires'; that is, strands of DNA which can conduct electricity. Already ideas for biosensors that can detect abnormalities in DNA are being researched -- the possibilites seem boundless."
And I thought it was a joke (Score:4)
I thought it was a joke because it was released on April 1st, 1999...
DNA and carbon nanotubes (Score:1)
Re:Oh great, nanotechnology without ethics. (Score:3)
As with ANY technology - it's just a tool, and it can be used for good or bad. Consider:
Cars: good uses - they can be used to transport us to fun events, bad uses - can be used as a getaway in a bank robbery
The Internet: good uses - Slashdot, Open Source, information transfer, bad uses - promoting paediophilia.
MP3 files: good uses - Frees musicians from the RIAA, bad uses - can be used for broadcasting hatred.
Airplanes: good uses - travelling to fun places, bad uses - Saddam Hussein using them to bomb the Kurds.
MySQL opensource database: good uses - storing messages for a web-board, bad uses - storing a hitman's target list.
Should we shun all these technologies because it is possible to use them for something bad?
Consider that instead of the company firing you because you have a gene for a certain disease, the technology can be used to CURE the disease before it even becomes a problem!
Re:Replication (Score:1)
0x0000
Re:sounds pretty cool... (Score:1)
Not gonna happen... (Score:1)
Re:Reconfigurable systems now available (Score:2)
Actually, this isn't very far off from an adaptive Field-Programmable Gate Array (FPGA). While it doesn't physically change its wiring, it does the equivilent and reconfigures it's connections and balance of processing power to improve it's own performance. There is a whole class of adaptive filters that select tap weights to improve their performance when in contact with their environment. They are quite useful devices, and the current Internet would be impossible without them.
I think reconfigurable systems are more useful that systems that could "change it's physical wiring" because such systems would 1) Give nasty glitches when they are in the act of rewiring, and 2) Be VERY hard to analyze and test.
Re:Next stop, tricorder (Score:1)
Re:Self-replicating computers? (Score:1)
Re:Why? Because it's EVERYWHERE! (Score:2)
- 1
- 0
- UNDEFINED
- NULL
How about 0, 1, 2, 3? As in 'false', 'probably false', 'probably true', and 'true'? Why can't there be "quits" and "quads"?Wetware quad-state logic? (was Re:Why?) (Score:1)
Furthermore, a lot of modern digital ('binary') electronics use 'tri-state' logic - i.e. hi, lo, hi-Z. These are still used in a binary manner.
Even if we presume that a DNA 'block' is analogous to a 'bit', you may need the other two states for control circuits or something when you start building up devices out of them...
In fact, I haven't seen anything that makes me believe that DNA computers will even be digital. The article makes it sound as though the M-DNA will act like an analog device -- i.e. the current flow thru the strand varies based on the bindings. Sounds like a variable resistor, to me -- or a transistor (amplifier).
If you use M-DNA in that way, it would mean that a single strand would represent a 'bit'; in other words, if the bonded strand acts like a transistor, you could set it up to 'operate' in 'switching mode', the same way you can a transistor. Electronic digital logic is based on transistors operating in (binary) switching mode, iirc. So, if you have a DNA strand acting like a transistor, you could connect several of them in circuits, an build a device. Such a device could be either digital or analogue in nature, or could have some yet-to-be-determined number of discrete states (e.g. 4), depending on the properties of the strands used.
Note that some transistors are more useful in one or the other of the modes (switching or amplifying), and that 'switching' is a special case of amplification.
Do you know of any online source for realistic detail designs of digital devices based on DNA?
0x0000
Re:Next stop, tricorder (Score:1)
Which makes one wonder how M$ could hold any patents at all....
Re:Wetware quad-state logic? (was Re:Why?) (Score:1)
Biological Computers (Score:1)
Re:Reconfigurable systems now available (Score:1)
Software does this kind of thing too. Load it into RAM, alter the binary on disk, load the new binary image into RAM, jump to the start of the new image. You can do it without altering the disk, too; lot's of ways. It's damn near trivial.
I've seen code that changes the next instruction to be executed based on the program state, then executes it. Worked fine, was small and fast.
It's a matter of design. If it's designed to be self-modifying, it won't necesarily misbehave during the mods. In fact, if the purpose of the code (gate array) is to recode (rewire) itself, it almost certainly won't glitch up while doing so.
Your second point here is gospel. That's why self-replicating, self-modifying code is frowned upon. Not because it's necesarily hostile, but because it is a bear to debug, test, and maintain0x0000
Script kiddie heaven (Score:2)
Oh yeah, I really want my computer growing new circuits for itself. I can see the new passtime for the script kiddies now. "Yeah, d00d5! I gave this guy's Linux box cancer of the graphics card. It was way cool ..."
It will never replace three-o stranded copper... (Score:1)
This could be the basis for a really good nerve-to-silicon sensor arrangement.
Re:sounds pretty cool... (Score:1)
Re:Cybernetics (Score:1)
fix nerve damage (I'd love to see Christopher Reeve and many others walk again someday)
I don't see this discovery putting us any closer to fixing nerve damage. The problem in fixing nerve damage isn't the lack of a suitable conductor, the problem is the unbelievable interconnect complexity and the vast number of wildly different signals. We can already use 2 digital signal processors and copper wire to jump a break in the spine. The problem is what signals need to be sent where and how quickly. So, it is an issue of DSPs that are too slow as well as a lack of understanding of the central nervous system. DNA trickery won't help us there.
Re:Replication (Score:1)
Nanotech: Good News/Bad News (Score:2)
Good News: Recent technological breakthroughs have restored
you to full and perfect health. You say, "Yea!"
Bad News: Teenagers have cracked your hospital's security and
you now look like a Pokemon. You say, "Pikachu! Pikachu! [kibo.com]"
The Race is On (Score:1)
Re:Why? (Score:2)
LEEPS microscope picture of a DNA (Score:1)
Re:Script kiddie heaven (Score:1)
Script kiddie heaven.. and a new breed of virii (Score:1)
I mean, a good viral lab today is beyond the capaacity of most governments, let alone individuals (save the CEO's of MSFT, ORCL, amongst others).
And by the time that this tech is commercially feasable, the viral labs will be really locked down. Never mind that they'll connect via USB or the FireWire, are smaller than the average PalmPilot and have Linux drivers only.
Re:Wetware quad-state logic? (was Re:Why?) (Score:1)
I think the title was deceptive, too, since it sounds to me like they were describing a semi-conductor device, as opposed to a 'conductor'. More like a resistive element than a 'wire'...
I think they are still quite a long way from being able to build a nanobot from the M-DNA described in the article. They seem to be still at the level of getting DNA strands to work as resistive sensors.If you treat the 'contaminants' that they are sensing as a control input, they are one step closer to building a logic gate out of a DNA strand. Seems terribly wasteful to use an entire strand as such a simple circuit component, but I guess it's better than having to use an entire transistor for a switch, then having to combine them into gates.
Anyone have an size comparison info on transistor density on silicon compared to DNA strands? How many molecules of silicon does it take to make one transistor now?
Injection of the control elements into the solution would be a limiting fact on computation speed, too, seems to me. I don't know, maybe there's something more to it than what was in the article.
0x0000
Who's God Now (Score:1)
How it works (Score:2)
This is not a new discovery. I remember reading this when I was a biochem student around 1996.
The way dna conducts electricity is that the chromatic rings of the bases have overlapping pi bonds. These rings are like a stack of pancakes. The pi bonds are half occupied and orbit purpendicular to the plane of the rings above and below. So they overlap and contribute considerably to the rigidness of the overall helix. Because the orbital clouds occupy the same space electrons can freely pass from one pi bond of one ring in the chain to the orbital of the next ring.
I believe the particular paper described actually annealing a single strand of DNA to a pair of microelectrodes and measuring the various potentials that could be created accross it.
KidSock
sounds pretty cool... (Score:1)
Incriminating data? (Score:3)
Maybe historical DNA in your computer is going to be the next uber-geek chic.
"I think OJ did it... I mean... ever since I've been using his DNA, I've racked up a hell of a lot of frags..."
----
Detect deletions? (Score:2)
I can imagine how additions would break conductivity (adding links to the dna chain that are not bound to a metal). But how would removing links in the dna strand break conductivity? Presumably, the links left in the strand still have their metal.
Why? (Score:2)
It seems like the cool thing to do these days is make things out of DNA. This, using DNA to thwart counterfitters, hiding Morse code in DNA microdots.
But why do you need to do any of this? If you're coating DNA strands with metal why don't you just make really small wires? Instead of using DNA in a microdot, why not just use ANYTHING ELSE to hide the message. These alternatives would definately be cheaper and more efficient.
How long is it until someone just takes a couple of pounds of DNA and makes the worlds first DNA paperweight? "Why'd you use DNA?" "It's a proof of concept. Now we know you can make paperweights out of DNA."
On a different tangent, since 'DNA computers' are going to have four states for each bit instead of two, we'll need a different method define the states. Here's my proposal for the different values of each bit(Quadruple-state logic):
old story ... Mary Shelly said this in 1818 (Score:2)
giving away DNA.. (Score:1)
Re:Cybernetics (Score:1)
-Jennifer
Electrical Conductor? How about Parallel Processor (Score:3)
The DNA computer he used consisted of 7 DNA strands each representing a "city" and 14 strands representing the "roads" connecting the cities. The calculation took about 1 second to complete. Cool huh?
Another interesting tidbit about DNA is that it is estimated that one cubic centimeter of DNA can store one trillion bits of information.
DNA's electrical resonance can track your sex life (Score:2)
Check it out at http://www.syntac.net/dl/Clam/reson.html. [syntac.net]
Re:Next stop, tricorder (Score:1)
Star-Trek fascinates me, but I also realize how pathetic that makes me. Self-realization sucks
Re:Detect deletions? (Score:2)
Re:Cybernetics (Score:1)
Superman
create ports on the body to parts of the brain; one step closer to true virtual reality
eXistenz
cybernetic organs
Basically any sci fi movie out there
human body used as a power source (lose weight and power your computer)
The Matrix
Any other movies out there?
This stuff is probably great for making neural networks, and thus maybe making sentient computers. 2001 / 2010
You could make bio-neural gel-packs and actually make USS Voyager's computer system. I sure hope this version isn't alergic to cheese though...
We could improve on Data and make an organic android.
Imagine a beowulf cluster of such computers. Deep Thought! Lets cross-check Douglas Adams' findings and see if we come to 42 aswell.
Fix Steven Hawking? Or is his amazing intellect _caused_ by the fact his brains don't do much with his body?
Give CmdrTaco a brain transplant so he can finally post some intelligent articles?
)O(
Never underestimate the power of stupidity
Wait a sec, if DNA conducts, what about RNA? (Score:1)
"A socity that cannot adequately distiguish between science and magic is insufficently advanced"
Howabout a Muscle? (Score:1)
Can you tell i am an advocate of Nanotech?
READ THE DIAMOND AGE
Re:Detect deletions? (Score:1)
Re:sounds pretty cool... (Score:1)
From my sources, this was done a long time ago. There's a Caltech press release entitled "The DNA Double Helix Conducts Current as a Molecular Wire" that was released 11/11/1993. You can go to Caltech's site [caltech.edu] and search for 'DNA conduct' [caltech.edu] and you'll see it's there.
Further, there's an research brief [nih.gov] at the National Institute of General Medical Sciences (who knew we had such an institute?) from 1997 talking about the same thing.
Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.
Re:Cybernetics (Score:1)
Hawking was brilliant long before he came down with ALS [hawking.org.uk]. Though, you would still have to think it's kept him focused on physics instead of sex, drugs, and rock&roll, like some of his contemporaries.
Re:Biological Computers (Score:1)
You're not kidding. A computer utilized taste materials such as proteins and nucleic acids would be very appitizing to hungry bacteria.
You might get the latest and greatest CPU only to find the casing had a crack in it and was consumed by a real live bug(rather than the programmatic kind).
KidSock
Re:Why? (Score:2)
Actually, what you could do is have one state represent 00, another represent 01, another represent 10, and another represent 11. Thus your memory size is instantaneously doubled. Somewhat like hardware-based compression.
=================================
Maybe the IOC could use this... (Score:1)
Re:Reconfigurable systems now available (Score:2)
Unfortunately, we haven't heard any more from him, so it mustn't have worked quite as well as he hoped (making this idea work requires, amongst other things, that evaluating the utility of the present configuration be very fast - if it takes you 5 minutes to determine whether this configuration works or not, this technique obviously falls down). Still was a fascinating idea, even if it was never going to do the things he was claiming for it.
Re:Who's God Now (Score:1)
Re:Replication (Score:2)
Or, maybe not.
Self-replicating computers? (Score:2)
Cybernetics (Score:3)
-Jennifer
Replication (Score:4)
Next stop, tricorder (Score:3)
Anyone have a spare patent application lying around? I think I've got a winner here. Oh, and can we get Congress to extend patent terms to lifetime + 70 years like copywrites? I need to protect my children's children's livelihood! They're going to make a mint off this 50 years from now when it's practical.
Re:Cybernetics (Score:2)
I can't believe how bad my grammar was in that post. Anyway, came up with my own set of applications if it ever goes anywhere.
I guess that's starting to sound a little too much like The Matrix. Anyone got any others?
-Jennifer
Re:old story ... Mary Shelly said this in 1818 (Score:1)
insulation (Score:1)
Re:Replication (Score:1)
What we need to do now is harness DNA's ability to reproduce itself. Imagine, a circuit that can actually change it's physical wiring to handle new conditions and/or optimize itself...
DNA does not replicate itself, enzymes called DNA polymerases are required for DNA replication. Some specially-engineered RNA molecules can self-replicate, but that reaction is extremely inefficient.
Explanation, Rant, and a Goodbye (Score:2)
DNA has many fine and interesting traits, but ability to self-replicate definitely isn't one of them. A large and complicated enzyme called polymerase and very special conditions are needed for even simplest replication of DNA. Food for thought: enzymes aren't stable. We keep them in -20, -70 deg C. Typical polymerase will be degraded after a couple of hours at room temperature.
Generally, this whole debate is a mixture of ignorance, misunderstanding, writing *something* quickly without having a hint of knowledge on the subject and without reading and understanding the original text (someone mentioned cybernetics. Well, I don't see any connection here. I would even go as so far as to say that DNA-based nanoelements would be especially unsuitable for any implants, since their expected lifetime in an organism full of DNA-digesting enzymes would be measured in minutes). What is even worse is that this is perfectly representative for Slashdot.
Slashdot -- corporate & legal news, misinformation en gros. "So why read Slashdot if you don't like it?" -- well, I won't. From now on. Slashdot is boring and full of "sensations" which usually turn out to be totally uninteresting, harmless, old.
About two years ago I have found Slashdot -- as a Ph.D. student in molecular biology who is doing also casually some bioinformatics, it was exactly the kind of thing I liked. Since then, I usually started my day by reading Slashdot. You may not believe it if I tell you, but there were usually genuine and interesting news about science and technology, often with links to articles written by profis, and not recycled second-hand information some laic wrote in some boulevard magazine. And if it was labelled "funny", then it was usually a couple of orders of magnitude more hilarious then "Diablo meets the Sims", which is what I call the humour for the rest of us. OK, enough with the rant. See you in a better world.
Cheers,
January
Re:Replication (Score:1)
Re:Self-replicating computers? (Score:1)
I hear that Distributed.net has signed up quite a few of them. They're all hard at work trying to crack who will be the ultimate winner on "Big Brother."
could you make motors or fractionate enatiomers? (Score:1)
Could running a charge down a strand of DNA that was coiled into a cylinder be used as an ion pump?
Or could these tubes be used to separate out chiral molecules? (molecues that are similar the way your left and right hands are similar- in parts and connectivity, but not superimposable) This would be significant, since with many drugs (such as aspirin) both forms of the molecule cause side effects, while only one acts as medicine. A cheap method of purification would make many drugs more effective. (of course, use of enzymes would probably be better since many enzymes only produce one form of the molecule, but what the hell, I'm speculating. )
Oh great, nanotechnology without ethics. (Score:1)