Simulating Life On The Red Planet 146
Cybernetic Wolf writes: "The Mars Society has just finished building the Flashline Mars Arctic Research Station in the Canadian Arctic. The station has been built to simulate what life on Mars will be like for future astronauts. This is a really cool first step in getting humans closer to colonizing other planets. There is a webcam and video of them as well."
Been there before... (Score:4)
Kevin Fox
How can they know? (Score:1)
Help with their simulations (Score:3)
And now, curtesy of slashdot, they also get a simulated attack on their internet connection.
(Apparently this was a problem with MIR and some shuttle missions - their communications getting DOSed at a critical point. Luckily NASA are good at building redundant systems)
Sense of humour failure (Score:2)
Will extraplanetary settlement ever catch on? (Score:3)
Now, I realize I'm just one person, but a lot of people are going to be thinking the same thing. Few people would want to move to Mars until life on Mars becomes normal and comfortable -- and living conditions on Mars won't improve until more people arrive. It's a classic Catch-22 situation; and I honestly don't see extraplanetary settlement appealing to anyone except a few fringe groups or the inevitable "early adopters." There's also a lot of other factors to consider: Who will make the laws on Mars? What language(s) will be spoken? Will Mars be a colony of some Earth-based country, sparking a resurrection in colonialism? Or could we make Mars an international territory for the betterment of civilization?
Before you hit that reply button to flame me, sit back and think what you would really do if you could leave on a space shuttle for Mars tomorrow. Would you really want to abandon the Earth, home of humanity for many millenia, and all of its scenic mountains, awe-inspiring oceans, and beautiful forests to go live on a God-forsaken hump of red rock? I think not.
Interesting, but is there a point? (Score:2)
First of all, what is the need of settling Mars, if not to satisfy the ego of 21st century manifest destiny? Earth has its overpopulation and resource problems, but we are still safely far from the brink of those issues. Besides, is this a way of abandoning hope? Earth is gonna be gone, so lets try another planet? Absurd!
Any efforts to bring large scale colonization on Mars would be prohibitively complicated, time consuming and expensive. Even if habitation is possible, there will definitely need to be some way for man to prepare for colonies and deal with such issues as temperature and air composition. It's not as simple as fly in spaceships and build a new world. The costs of settling and transporting people to Mars en masse would be exhorbitant. Maybe 10-20 people can fit on a space shuttle, and those trips cost billions and take months to prepare, as shown by NASA's adventures. It definitely wont happen on a large scale.
It's a good idea, scientists, but why waste effort on idealistic dreams of settling other planets? I'd rather see our great scientific minds work to fix the growing shortage of resources here on Earth.
"A journey of a thousand miles..." (Score:1)
Things were looking grim there for a while, when the fifth air-drop failed and crunched up the floor pieces and some of the equipment (and let's skip the obvious "simulating NASA-based Mars mission" jokes), but they still managed to put things together; cool!
Re:Interesting, but is there a point? (Score:1)
Fawking Trolls! [slashdot.org]
Yummy polar bears (Score:1)
"July 11: Devon Island Dangers Find out why shotgun training is mandatory." video
Man, the People Eating Tasty Animals group sure is going to be all over this one...
#Haha, I just made a funny =)
Re:Been there before... (Score:1)
Life on another planet (Score:1)
One (very) small step.. (Score:3)
What I'm wondering is whether they're going to have some of the problems that the various "biosphere" projects had in the past (judging from some quite old Popular Science magazines I had a while back). A big problem with any Mars mission would seem to be the time from landing to liftoff at Mars.
Unlike a short-term near-earth mission, if there is any problem, even small, it has a lot more time to add up. In other words, an "Apollo 13"-style rescue operation would likely have much less chance of succeeding, and what would happen to the space program if we landed humans on Mars and then had to watch them slowly die of exposure.
That's my greatest concern. All previous space disasters involving human lives were quick. While they devastated the emotions of the whole country/world, we moved on. If the public had to watch a Mars team die slowly over the course of weeks, maybe more, it could set the space program back tremendously.
On the other hand, it could end up being a rallying point. The casulties of space could end up strengthening the will of the world to make it off this planet and back, but that's not something I think anyone wants to test.
Anyway, good luck to the Mars Society, and I hope I live to see humans set foot on another world. (Actually, I hope I live to do that myself, but that might take a while.)
Finally. (Score:1)
Re:Sense of humour failure (Score:1)
Mike van Lammeren
Re:How can they know? (Score:2)
-Vercingetorix
Re:Will extraplanetary settlement ever catch on? (Score:1)
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i couldn't possibly live on mars... (Score:4)
FluX
After 16 years, MTV has finally completed its deevolution into the shiny things network
huh? (Score:1)
Okay, it is cold. Hmmm, I think that this problem has been addressed by ppl that have gone to other cold places on this planet.
What about water?
Okay, water on Mars has been proposed. OTOH, it has been also proposed that landing a lander (using rocket engines) may cause the release of shallow sub-surface volatilies (e.g., solid methane). This is rather nasty as it means that a potentially good landing site is inherently unstable. I don't necessarily agree with this, but it is very interesting.
Re:Will extraplanetary settlement ever catch on? (Score:2)
-Vercingetorix
Canada Inhospitable? (Score:2)
The area around Sudbury has gotten much better than it was when it was used to simulate the moon.
Now they are using the Great White North to simulate Mars.Fortunately the smog in Toronto doesn't match the conditions on Venus yet.
Re:Interesting, but is there a point? (Score:1)
Please enage brain before posting.
Fawking moron.
Fawking Trolls! [slashdot.org]
Re:Will extraplanetary settlement ever catch on? (Score:4)
Okay, I'll bite...
Sure, I want to go to Mars. (Actually, I want to visit other places in the Solar system as well, but Mars is a good first stop...) Sure the creature comforts would be on the sparse side. So? "Sorry, I won't be climbing Mt. Everest with you; the nearest Blockbuster is 500 miles away!" Those "early adopters" helped settle the "New World" a few hundred years ago.
Can I explain why I want to go to Mars? No, not yet. I've been trying for years, and so far, people either get it (and don't have to ask the question), or they don't and can't. The scene in Contact where Bryant Gumbal (sp?) is asking Ellie (Jodi Foster), why she's willing to risk her life "in the chair" is a clear example of this; to me (and only a couple other people I've discussed this with) this was a clearly stupid question. But to most people it is as valid as it is puzzling.
I could resort to clichés like "Because it's there." or pick at your "home of humanity" metaphor and suggest that I feel its time to leave home and strike out on my own. But the truth is simpler; I want to go. I am not only ready to sacrifice the local scenery (I live in the mountains just west of Denver), but I'm also abandoning a 16 year career in IT (this Friday, in fact) so that I can pursue an educational path which (I hope) will lead to participating directly in space exploration in the near future.
Manned Rover Design for Artic Base (Score:5)
This rover would be used by the Artic Base simulated missions. It is also an investigation into what is possible with a Martian rover.
It will be presented at the Mars Society conference in Toronto in 10 days.
You can see an image of the
Email our team [mailto] for more information.
This vehicle will be constructed in the next year or two.
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Warren Strong
Life Support & Internal Systems Design Leader
Michigan Mars Rover Design Project
The newest reality show (Score:4)
BIG MARS SURVIVOR!
16 people locked in a simulated Martian colony on a frozen island with cameras in the bathrooms! Go to our gif-ridden website and vote to see who gets kicked out of the colony and forced to swim back to civilization. No sissy boat ride on this show! These people are SURVIVORS!
If the fad doesn't run out before we're done then we'll have part two: CBS EXECUTIVES ON THEIR WAY TO THE SUN SURVIVOR!
Re:Will extraplanetary settlement ever catch on? (Score:3)
It's all a matter of point of view. I'm willing to forgoe the comforts and safety of civilization to lay my eyes on things never before seen by mankind. I'm willing to break my back building a new world, just so I can sit back at the end of the day and say "Wow! I did that!" It's the same thing that makes me climb mountains and take up eco-treks...only on a much grander scale
Re:Will extraplanetary settlement ever catch on? (Score:1)
Hey, that's how new civilizations come into being, right? If the passengers of the Mayflower had thought the same, where would America have been now? Having built a civilization almost from scratch, they seem to have done rather well. I don't see why this kind of thing shouldn't work for colonizing Mars as well.
Of course, as time progresses, the Mars-resident humans will resent the colonialism of the Earthlings, and if America's history is any indication, Mars will soon sever political ties with earth; all of Asimov's and Bradbury's inter-planetary and inter-stellar rebellion tales will be enacted out in full. Soon we shall have an independent Mars. ;-)
My estimate for the time-frame for the above events is about three to five centuries. What do you think?
That aside, your point about first settlement on a God-forsaken lump of red rock is well taken: I wouldn't want to be the first one to settle there either.
Experiments Predict Life On Mars! (Score:1)
wait a sec, how's that Yamaha working? (Score:1)
Re:How can they know? (Score:1)
I am kissing your ass (and the trolls will pipe in), but you raise good points that are worth thinking about.
Smells like bad science to me... (Score:3)
-- Moondog
Mars on Earth Summer 2000 Field Season (Score:3)
Re:Interesting, but is there a point? (Score:2)
Simulating life?? How about Stimulating Life! (Score:1)
What a bummer that we are simulting life, it we want a self sustaining colony on mars we need to start terra forming the planet. We should start by dusting the surface with cyanobacteria. Some species can exist on carbon dioxide, water, sun, and sold rocks. THis would start to oxygenate the atmosphere and begin to build a carbon soil layer.
So, lets get to work! Since NASA is so good a crashing things on mars, lets just start pummelling it with canisters of bacteria.
JungleBoy
Re:Will extraplanetary settlement ever catch on? (Score:2)
You ever think that this is one reason why Congress and other politicos aren't thrilled with launching colonies in space and on other planets? Not the only reason, mind you, but one of them.
Re:How can they know? (Score:2)
b) Very remote. Just consider how LONG it takes to get from the nearest supply depot to where they are. It's FAR.
c) Wierd day & night cycle; it's certainly not a nice 24 hour cycle like we are used to.
Re:Sense of humour failure (Score:1)
Anyway living off of your own refuse in the arctic is kinda cool... not
perhaps Id4 was accurate...? (Score:2)
it looks like they're planning on having macs [fluidthoughts.com] on mars....
colinization in general (Score:1)
-Drk
The suburbs of Mars (Score:3)
You're looking at moving to Mars like moving to the suburbs. Where are the movie theatres? Is there a public swimming pool nearby? Are the schools any good?
Frankly, the people moving to Mars (and there will be, not if, just when) aren't looking for creature comforts. They're looking for adventure -- a once-in-many-lifetimes adventure; looking for a challenge; looking to escape poverty, or repression (political; religious; ethnic; take your pick); looking just to get away from it all. These kinds of people have always existed, and they have always driven exploration and colonization movements. Right now people like this, in America, often go to places like Alaska; even though they grew up in cushy California exurbia, they now live in remote cabins and see people once every three months. Yes, it's an unusual way to live your life
Before you hit that reply button to flame me, sit back and think what you would really do if you could leave on a space shuttle for Mars tomorrow. Would you really want to abandon the Earth, home of humanity for many millenia, and all of its scenic mountains, awe-inspiring oceans, and beautiful forests to go live on a God-forsaken hump of red rock? I think not.
No flame. Just a straight-up Jerry-Springer-show "You don't know me!" Face it: you may be right that most people are like you, but fortunately for humanity, not all people are.
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But they forgot one thing! (Score:2)
Re:One (very) small step.. (Score:2)
Re:Will extraplanetary settlement ever catch on? (Score:2)
Seriously, one thing that most people forget is that to settle space in any serious way one of the first steps necessary is to settle the Moon. The moon has a gravity well that requires 1/20 the energy to climb out of. As well as the regolith on the surface of the moon has most of the materials we need to further exploration of space. We need to concentrate more on this than mars today.
Re:Will extraplanetary settlement ever catch on? (Score:1)
Colonization of Mars will happen just like any other frontier. It'll attract people who don't have a whole lot to look forward to in the status quo ("The Other Shoe", anyone?), people looking for economic opportunity (land prospectors, gold rush crazies, etc..imagine if you got up there now and cornered the water market on Mars..you'd be pretty rich later on, although a Total Recall-esque Mars regime leaves a bad taste in my mouth).
When people packed their bags to move to the western US, they'd often simply liquidate all their belongings, their life savings, etc. to pay for it. If a family had all their insurance policies bought out, sold their house and cars, all their possessions, cashed in retirement funds, they could probably afford a trip to Mars within a few decades.
I just hope this time there aren't any Native Americans/Martians that have to get slaughtered in droves before the rest of the human race feels like joining the first settlers.
You remind me of a quote (Score:3)
Why will we colonize planets? Well, why did we colonize America? It was a long hard voyage across the ocean. Lots of people were comfortable right where they were.
But people had to flee their opressive country you say? We have incentive too.. to make sure World War III doesn't make us extinct.
Stimulating? (Score:2)
Too many conspiracies, not enough coffee!
Re:Simulating life?? How about Stimulating Life! (Score:1)
Cyclic research (Score:2)
A woman using her understanding of me to try to help me understand her? Hasn't worked yet.
One more step toward nuclear war. (Score:3)
People won't nuke their own planet, it just doesn't take that many bombs to make a planet unlivable. However, Earth will indefinitely continue to be the ultimate desirable living space and will be the focus of religious obsession for spacefarers. Whether it's "those degenerates who stayed behind and are destroying what's left of the Cradle of Man" or "the infidels who are standing in the way of Our Glorious Return," a few nukes (or big rocks, for that matter) here and there will seem acceptable. Of course, then a few more will seem acceptable, until all Holy Terra goes up in a holy fire.
I personally think that many people in high places have come to the same conclusion, and this is why space travel is so expensive. Our own little Bureau of Sabotage or I-A (see Frank Herbert's "The Dosadi Experiment" or "The Godmakers") to toss a monkey-wrench into things that will lead to planetary destruction, like space travel. I'm generally not big on conspiracy theories, but I think the surface facts of how we've avoided nuclear war thus far are simply incredible without some other organized effort.
I don't know about you guys, but I'm not going to hang back when people start moving out.
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Despite rumors to the contrary, I am not a turnip.
Re:How can they know? (Score:2)
Remoteness can be simulated. You want to simulate being remote from 24 hr pizza. Just don't order pizza at 3a.m. Simple. Barren can be simulated too. My highschool gym was completely devoid of plant life. Just like mars. The weird day and night cycle may be a little tougher unless you want to stay indoors where Thomas Edison's Amazing Invention can simulate any damn cycle you like. BTW, the arctic day/night cycle is still 24 hrs...
Let's look at the important stuff this does not simulate:
1. Gravity in Canada is the same as in the United States. The problem, though, is that it's different on Mars.
2. Certain metropolitan centres excepted, the air in the US is as breathable as in Canada... but on Mars, it's a different kettle of... air(?)
3. Atmospheric pressure. Same here. Different there.
4. UV radiation. What's the SPF of a space suit? Will my solar-powered beowulf cluster of palm pilots work on mars? A trip to Canada's Big Underdeveloped Simuland won't answer these questions.
5. Soil composition. Mars is the red planet. Nunavet is the white (and sometimes brown) territory. Hm. Must be different rocks.
Really, the only thing that northern Canada and Mars have in common is scenery and temperature. A couple of good Leibert air conditioners on a Holywood set could get that done in a thrice.
Everyone knows... (Score:2)
What do you think is interfering with all the Mars probes? What do you think makes the canals appear and disappear?
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Despite rumors to the contrary, I am not a turnip.
Re:Will extraplanetary settlement ever catch on? (Score:2)
I would sit at home with my juicer, fat net connection and enjoy strolls in the park without the aid of $300,000 worth of specialized clothing.
however, my grandmother got on a leaky boat with 5 shillings in her pocket and left ireland to go to a country where she knew no-one, was destined to be the target of serious discrimination (the irish had a tough time until ww2...) and wound up in a land where the vast majority of people didn't even speak her language (Quebec). My grandmother.
If you discover it, people will settle.
Re:Will extraplanetary settlement ever catch on? (Score:2)
If Earth is the only place humans exist, we're a really small target for extinction.
If we don't find a way off this rock it's only a matter of time before a football field-sized meteor nukes most or all of the population out of existance. The universe is not a friendly place, you don't want to make it too easy for humanity to be snuffed out.
I might not want to be a Mars explorer, but I'd certainly be interested in being a Mars settler...
Re:One (very) small step.. (Score:2)
Anyway, there's always a price to be paid for progress. "You can always tell the pioneers - they're the ones face down in the dirt with arrows in their backs." Doesn't mean you don't do it.
Re:Interesting, but is there a point? (Score:1)
I doubt they're too concerned about colonizing yet. There are considerable benefits, however, in simply visiting mars.
The main one is for scientific knowledge - we have never even brought anything back from mars, no lab has ever had a sample of martian soil to analyse. Being able to examine another planet's geology and atmosphere in detail will be extremely rewarding. Not to mention the possiblity of life, even if only long-dead bacteria.
Another big reason is industry - what if huge deposits of valuable minerals were found? It could become worth it to actually travel there.
And lastly, all the things which get to be "first ... on mars!" OK, pretty trivial, but the first movie made on mars could be good.
As for the earth's current problems - I believe all the technical solutions necessary are already here. The problems are political, economic and social and thus beyond the capability of any scientist to fix.
Re:Smells like bad science to me... (Score:2)
Seriously, this is as much a test of the "human spirit" as it is any scientific project. Lack of gravity on Mars will be an issue, as will lack of atmosphere, but you've got to start testing the ideas somewhere...
BTW: that biosphere proved that the people involved had a long way to go (If I recall, they had to open the door several times just for air and once for pizza).
Re:i couldn't possibly live on mars... (Score:1)
Re:Smells like bad science to me... (Score:1)
Most of Discovery is a publicity vechile for NASA Space Exploration anyway. It seems they are the only modern programming. The rest seems to consist of old 60-70's style documentaries.....
Anyway's lost the point of why I was writing
Bye Bye
Re:Interesting, but is there a point? (Score:1)
Besides which, I'm sure some forms of bacteria have survived essentially unchanged on such timescales.
Re:But they forgot one thing! (Score:1)
Actually, they've already covered that. One of the air-drops of supplies hit their shelter a week or two ago. :)
Sour Grapes (Score:1)
*Grumble. Whine.* Methinks maybe Hemos is prejudiced agaist Coyotes and in favour of Wolves.
Anyway, I am glad to see that at least they finally did see fit to post the story even if someone else gets the credit for the submission. This is a very practical and important step in preparing for the eventual (and hopefully inevitible) human journeying to Mars.
The last time humans ventured out of near Earth orbit over a GENERATION ago. It is something one can only read about in the history books, not something in today's news. Come on, let's get back out there!
I would go howl at the moon now, but it's not out tonight, so... I guess I'll just go and howl.
Trickster Coyote
Re:Manned Rover Design for Artic Base (Score:1)
Nice images, the exterior could really use something to give it scale though. I wonder about the wisdom of loose chairs, especially with wheels if this thing is supposed to be doing any signifigant crater & boulder navigating (and the rules say it should).
Oh well, don't mind me, I'm just cynical about the Mars Society. They come across as kids playing spaceman, all hoping they can get involved in the real thing, if they can just get anyone else to care.
Re:One more step toward nuclear war. (Score:1)
Re:Will extraplanetary settlement ever catch on? (Score:2)
Re:One (very) small step.. (Score:2)
I think an Apollo13 type problem wouldn't even get to the comms blackout stage, just because of transmission delays (assuming they're at least close to the destination already).
As far watching them die slowly, I don't think the public would actually get to watch the vid feeds of slowly starving and/or asphixiating(sp?) astronauts. There'd be lots of coverage, but no way NASA lets us watch people in the process of dying...
Re:One more step toward nuclear war. (Score:2)
Ultimate Off-shore Data Haven (Score:2)
Well, besides the grand dreams of boldly going where no one has gone before, (which would be reason enough for me, even if it was a one way trip), Mars would be a great place for an offshore data haven. Sure, the pings times would be dreadful, but those corporate lawyer types would have one hell of a time trying to shut down your servers!
Trickster Coyote
Re:Will extraplanetary settlement ever catch on? (Score:2)
Re:Will extraplanetary settlement ever catch on? (Score:1)
I would -- unless it would mean living in an ice cave and trying to survive solid methane storms and fighting boredom by playing with Perky Pat dolls and drugs (damn, what was that P.K. Dick's book? The Three Stigmata [of something]).
I've always dreamt of getting a chance to at least orbit the Earth in my lifetime (I'm 27 now), but seeing how slowly the space exploration and space flight commercialisation is going, it looks increasingly improbable. I'll probably have to stick to lesser goals, like getting a ride in a real fighter jet (MiG-29 or F-14/15/18).
Re:Interesting, but is there a point? (Score:1)
Of course we probably will be winked out of existance much, much sooner, but those are hard limits.
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Design Advice (Score:1)
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Re:Will extraplanetary settlement ever catch on? (Score:1)
but the point is thus:
i posed a similar question in my astrobiology class last term, and 3/4 of the class shared my (and your) view: that we'd be willing to give everything up and go if the chance existed. granted, 3/4 of the class was only about 10 people, but i'm sure there's more out there, too.
off topic ... maybe /. should post a poll "would you be willing to live the rest of your life on mars if the opportunity presented itself? 'yes','no','cowboy neal','grits','i hate these options'"
Re:i couldn't possibly live on mars... (Score:1)
Re:The topic for today is: The Gay Flu (Score:1)
I have actually been married for 6 years quite happily to a woman, I am a hetero-sexual and always have been always will be I have no interest in the gay lifestyle unlike some of the people that I know. PS. Some of those guy's would probably crack your fucking skull for your point of view......
But perhaps it takes more than the brains of an amoeba to realise that you do not need to be gay to realise that you can defend their lifestyle.
If you are refering to me being a faggot in the traditional English sense then I am certainly not a piece of kindling.... Look it up do you know what a book is??
PS There have been recent studies done to actually show those that are most homophobic do it because they seem to display those same tendancies themselves, they are "revolted" by what they consider abnormal and therefore act out their aggression on others. I am confident in my sexuality, I have been laid and continue to get laid on average 3 times a week (by a woman, sometimes even 2!!).....
If you are a homophobe which you obivously are maybe you are the one that is confused. If this is the case perhaps you should give it a go....you might be the one in denial I know who I am and am comfortable in my hetero-sexual lifestyle are you equally comfortable, if not perhaps try it you might like it!!!
Otherwise you redneck motherfucker fuck you and the whole of your inbred fucking viewpoint....
If there are to many big words here remember look at a book yes they are the ones without pictures in them, yeh the ones you do not need to colour in..............
Re:How can they know? (Score:1)
Considering that actual humans haven't even landed on Mars yet, I think it's a little early to think about how we'll actually live there. Remember what happened to 'By the year 2000, people will be living on the moon' - when was the last time humans went there? (BTW Read Ben Elton's 'Stark', that gives a very probable explanation why we haven't...)
Richy C. [beebware.com]
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Long-term evolution of the Universe (Score:1)
Well, there are speculative ways to avoid the final death of life in the Universe...
Re:Will extraplanetary settlement ever catch on? (Score:2)
You are kidding, right? Millions of people have emigrated to the US (not to mention Australia, Canada, etc) because of the prospect of making a better life for themselves and their families.
I see no reason that Mars, given there is the basis for a sustainable economy (there's likely to be some pretty damn pure metal ores, for one thing), wouldn't be the same.
Re:Long-term evolution of the Universe (Score:1)
As for the second possibility, I really don't know. Don't quantum effects prevent you from running on arbitrary low power, or something?
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Re:Manned Rover Design for Artic Base (Score:1)
I think that there is way to much external hydraulics, suspension etc. You would have dust all over it..
Why so small wheels ?
Mars is much lower G than earth, those wheels would get stuck in the dust easily.
I'm re-reading Kim Stanley Robinsons Red/Blue/Green Mars series now and I really think he has some good ideas on how to do it.
Re:i couldn't possibly live on mars... (Score:1)
"Learn to spell faggot", eh? Make that "Learn to spell, faggot", and you're closer to the real deal.
"Your making Slashdot...", eh? Make that "You're making Slashdot...".
BTW, "grammer" eh? "grammar", you fucking dolt.
Next time, before you rag down on someone's spelling, make sure your own posting is spot-on perfect. Otherwise you'll just look like a fucking idiot... just like you just managed to do just now.
Re:The topic for today is: The Gay Flu (Score:1)
Re:Long-term evolution of the Universe (Score:1)
The Physics of Immortality? Last time I checked, /. has Science category but not Crackpot Science. But of course there are always secret sids...
Well, I certainly don't agree with a lot of the conclusions he draws in the book, but then again neither does he apparently. But the bits about the availability of energy from gravitational shear in a collapsing Universe may have validity - I don't know enough about global general relativity or quantum cosmology to know for sure :)
As for the second possibility, I really don't know. Don't quantum effects prevent you from running on arbitrary low power, or something?
In what sense? I suppose that since energy is quantised there is a lower bound to the amount you can use in one go, but when you aren't concerned with timescales then the amount doesn't matter. Or what about a way to extract energy from the expansion of space-time? That's a real "last ditch" energy source :)
Re:The topic for today is: The Gay Flu (Score:1)
This discussion is about MARS COLONISATION a topic that I would love to here ideas from as I have learnt there are many intelligent and insightful posts to be read on
Naturally select this bastard out....
Peace Love and Mung Beans to the rest of you out there!!!
Not science. Practical engineering. (Score:3)
"The outpost is not intended to be a high-fidelity mockup of a martian outpost, with regenerative systems and enclosed life support. Rather, the point of the habitat is to learn how to operate on Mars, to coordinate the people, robots, vehicles and mission control centers."
(Right there on the Discovery website you didn't read.) [discovery.com]
To some extent this is above all a public relations project ("stunt" being in the eye of the beholder). The Mars Society, though, is all about making Mars exploration practical. This isn't so much a "science experiment" as it is a dry run using the model proposed by Dr. Robert Zubrin, the society's president. It's a learning experiment, in other words.
NASA does plenty of pure research science in this area -- for example, astronauts have spent months at a time in very rigorous closed systems that test air and water recycling technologies. (This is much like Biosphere, actually, but with experimental controls.) But NASA is barred by Congress from funding almost anything resembling true preparation for a Mars mission. The Mars Society is seeking to fill that niche with the Devon Island station.
Don't think of this as science, because it isn't about getting scientific results. It's about learning what works and what doesn't so that when we DO go to Mars we have plenty of foreknowledge.
It's also about education, about public outreach, and about motivating the troops. And last but not least, it's our (the Mars Society's) money -- we can spend it any way we like. So there!
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Re:Long-term evolution of the Universe (Score:1)
It is quite amazing how many cranks there are that revert to using Quantum Physics without truly understanding it's implications shit there are only a couple of thousand people who can seriously grasp the complexity of the whole thing.
While you at it why don't you explain turbulence to as as well!!!
Physics of Immortality- is this required reading down at your nearest High School or University. They probably use it to wipe their asses with dowm at MIT.
"Subjective Time" - refer to the Theory of Relativity you dolt or read some Einstein, Penrose, Hawking, Davies etc ad infinitum. Your not telling us anything new.
In case you are stuck back in the 1800's please read some recent findings into the nature of our Universe, might I suggest NASA or even the MIT websites, if that is to much why not watch some Discovery channel!!!
By the way your Black Hole thing you will still suffer the same fate that of becoming part of the singularity which they emanate from (now this is speculation but alot better than your pseudo-bullshit!!)
Why not just sit around chanting!!!!
Welcome to Mars, eh. (Score:1)
Re:Long-term evolution of the Universe (Score:1)
Thank you for bringing a bit of sanity to this man!!!
Of course there's a point. (Score:2)
Emerson Williwick wrote:
It's a good idea, scientists, but why waste effort on idealistic dreams of settling other planets? I'd rather see our great scientific minds work to fix the growing shortage of resources here on Earth.
First of all, some of us do NOT believe that these dreams are at all idealistic. They are practical, they are achievable, and they represent the future of the human race. How silly to think that interplanetary exploration is within our grasp, and we won't take it! (I won't even address the vast array of misinformation you throw about regarding the cost and feasibility of Mars missions; it's plain you just don't know moe than you've learned from headlines.)
But second: the growing shortage of resources here on Earth exists for one simple reason, because Earth is finite. What resources would you have scientists conjure up? Star Trek style mass replicators? Shall we grow a continent of jungle, compress it beneath the sea, and thereby create new sources of oil and coal?
Certainly for the short-term humans will not completely use up all our resources, and even those we use up we will find substitutes for. Whether it's petroleum or simply the ever-useful copper, we'll have to face up one day to the fact that it's all been used and the rest is too expensive to mine. At that point getting resources from off-Earth sources, like asteroids, becomes not only feasible but economically necessary.
Earth is finite. You can't change that fact. What you can change is whether or not Earth is the finite boundary of human society.
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Re:Interesting, but is there a point? (Score:2)
Perhaps no intelligent life at at will exist then. That's certainly a possibility too. I used the rather facetious example of squid people to remind one that if future intelligent races of life exist on Earth, there is no reason to believe that they will be (like the "Star Child" in 2001) descendants of humanity.
Besides which, I'm sure some forms of bacteria have survived essentially unchanged on such timescales.
No. As someone with a doctorate in microbiology, I can assure you that bacteria actually evolve faster than eukaryotes.
Re:Will extraplanetary settlement ever catch on? (Score:3)
The first step to any reasonable form of space exploration is the building of a space elevator here on earth. With this in place the earths gravity well is virtually removed from the equation (and will be as soon as we can start using the elevator to net shift nothing from the earth, i.e. put up and take down the same masses). The next step would be to arrive at the moon and build an elevator there, then mars. Once we have the practice at putting these up on remote worlds we can start to look at improving flight times (when we no longer have to design our craft to simply pull themselves and the mass of fuel out of our gravity well). As we learn to shift around space faster, the range of "planets" we can make home on expands.
Let's not rush to the moon and Mars with a half-baked plan that simply strands humans on other planets (however much I want to go) and lets focus on setting up inter-planetary travel once and for all. This rocket stuff is madness.
Re:Will extraplanetary settlement ever catch on? (Score:2)
ummm HELL YEAH! I believe other responders have said it more eloquently than I, but yes, I would go in a second. I resent the fact that you think everyone is a cookie cutter duplicate of you and that everyone thinks like you, we dont. Some of us deram of doing something more than living in the suburbs, working for middle management, and having 2.3 children. If thats what you want to do, be my guest, but some people, myself included, would rather live "on a god-forsaken hunk of red rock" than in the suburbs.
Re:I think I can see how humanity ends.... (Score:2)
Interestingly enough, most civilizations end through their own fault, they stop advancing technologically and some other civilization that hasnt been so lackadasical comes along and takes them over, then that civilization becomes complacent and falls, and so on. All I have to say is, when the alien civilization comes to conquer earth because weve been slacking off, dont blame me, i plan on voting for kodos.
Re:One (very) small step.. (Score:2)
Yuppies on mars (Score:2)
It's only a matter of time before the Yuppies discover Mars as the Next Great Place to Live(TM). Before you know it there will be strip malls, chain resturaunts with 3hr wait every night of the week (doesen't anyone *make* dinner anymore?), ugly houses 3 feet apart, traffic, traffic, and more traffic.
Eventually the Yuppies will discover Mars, and they *will* destroy it.
Re:Smells like bad science to me... (Score:2)
We're testing space suits, and already several changes have been made in the design because of what we've seen in terms of flexibility and mobility while spending hours moving around in the terrain.
etcetera (visit the web pages for more details ont he experiments, none of wehich need low atmospheirc pressure or high radiation to succeed)...
I'm an investigator. I followed a trail there.
Q.Tell me what the trail was.
Re:perhaps Id4 was accurate...? (Score:2)
I'm an investigator. I followed a trail there.
Q.Tell me what the trail was.
Re:Manned Rover Design for Artic Base (Score:2)
And we have engines that work in the martian atmosphere (NASA developed them in the 60s/70s) but it's not necessary to use them for tooling around here on Devon.
That said, from our experiences here, I'd say this design is overkill in about a hundred ways. it looks way too complex to survive three years on Mars, and too top-heavy. it would roll over like a suzuki samurai if you tried to drive anywhere with it...
I'm an investigator. I followed a trail there.
Q.Tell me what the trail was.
Re:One more step toward nuclear war. (Score:2)
People tend to grossly overestimate the effects of nuclear weapons. If World War III broke out today, hundreds of millions, maybe a few billion, people would die. Governments would collapse and most of the world would be in bad shape. That does not mean that the entire planet would be uninhabitable or that humans would become extinct. From a biological point of view, it would be a minor catastrophe. Humanity would survive and rebuild large scale civilization.
Internet coverage about this story (Score:2)
Here's a comprehensive list of Internet resources about this story:
The original Arctic Mars homepage [marssociety.org] was providing regular updates about the research station, but they stopped around two weeks ago. They still have a lot of background material about the story.
From that point on, current news has been posted to the Mars Society Homepage [marssociety.org].
Marc Boucher, CEO of SpaceRef [spaceref.com] is also the webmaster for the project, so SpaceRef has a tremendous amount of coverage of the project, as well as a live webcam [spaceref.com].
In my opinion, though, MSNBC has had the absolutely best coverage, providing stories almost daily; unfortunately, they overwrite the older stories so there's no archive:
July 31 - Mars simulation begins in Arctic [msnbc.com]
And, of course, my own coverage at Universe Today [universetoday.com]:
Fraser Cain
Re:Will extraplanetary settlement ever catch on? (Score:2)
Re:wait a sec, how's that Yamaha working? (Score:2)
If you're going to make it completely closed anyway, you might as well use an electric engine, possibly charged by RTGs.