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Space

Getaway to Club Mir 121

Posted by CmdrTaco from the now-thats-pretty-crazy dept.
Willie_the_Wimp writes "A venture capitalist is turning Mir into a vacation getaway. I thought this story was really interesting. With all the Silicon Valley millionaires sprouting like poppies, I bet they will have a waiting list a mile long. I know the risks, but sign me up! "
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Getaway to Club Mir More

Getaway to Club Mir

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  • this guy is naive in the extreme (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I mean, it's great that someone is putting up Real Money to get space tourism going, but this guy is naive in the extreme if he believes the money he puts up is going to be spent on rocket fuel, engineer salaries, and the like. I'd like to visit some of the country houses that get built by the government executives who receive the money, they'll probably be very nice.

  • Mir rescue - the technical details (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    For the full and detailed technical plans on how they could do it, go here. Includes costings and timescales, but replace 1999 with 2000 since this is an old plan. http://www.finds-space.org/Energia.html

  • Re:Predictions (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Hee Hee,Doesn't the zero-g's in that only last for about 30 -60 seconds? Doesn't sound like a very lon. . .

    Oh, I guess it'd be more than enough time.

  • time to failure (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    anyone here able to say "metal fatigue"? the reason planes get retired after a certain time is metal fatigue. the reason satellites die is radiation. the two combined are a pretty deadly mix for structural integrity.

    personally, i am not willing to risk my new $40m ipo cash on testing time to failure theory. oh, and my life too.

  • Actually, the bad part about this contest, IMHO, is that for about four or five of those forty-million-dollar tickets, one could fund development of a suborbital RLV (like TGV-Rocket's Michelle) or finish development of Rotary Rocket's Roton vehicle.


  • I don't know who SkeptiNews are, but it sounds like they've joined the long list of news sites/print magazines to rip stuff from Need To Know:

    http://www.ntk.net/

    Subscribe to the email list, it's fab.

    -- Yoz
  • In a case such as this, where the apparent facts seem contradictory, it may help to read the article. As was explained there, people will be put back up to Mir to determine its viability, it will be used again if it's determined viable, and it would be kept from burning up when they correct its orbit.
  • My bad, I think you're right.
    ----
  • Although at 40 million dollars a pop it IS a wee bit steep.

    Actually, it's $40 million for the first guy who goes up. Everyone after that only has to pay $25 million, so that should bring it a little closer to your price range.
  • The alien space stations are not built to handle humanoid life forms [humans and anything geneticly modifyed to be human like].
    Also humans are not up to code for many alien worlds (the carbon dioxide? Biology was a long time ago... stuff we exhail.. poison to many.. also oxogen is banned as a controled substence on many worlds)
    Anyway we are banned on nearly all alien worlds due to our "Ugly tourest" habbit of disrespecting cultures we visit...
    The few worlds that havn't banned us... ummm... carbon based life forms are hard to find and very tasty...
    I think the only place a human could visit with out being on the menu, killed by the environment or cause an environmental disaster would be Keltos.. and Keltos hospitality ranks up with Vogon poitry...
    In the mean time the illegal oxogen trade is doing really well...

  • Re:Mir (Score:1)

    by Audin ( 17719 )
    The US has no launcher capable of launching the Service Module. It won't fit in the shuttle's payload bay. It might fit on a Titan IV, but those are terribly expensive and (lately) tend to blow up a lot. It's probably the least of all evils just to wait for Proton to be reapproved. I don't think the software for the US lab module is ready yet, anyway...

  • Metal fatigue in airplanes only comes about because of the tremendous strain put on the airframe during takeoffs and landings.

    This isn't quite right. The main cause of metal fatigue in jets is pressurization and depressurization during flight. Of course only parts of Mir suffer from this type of fatigue (mainly the airlock and docking node).

    The main structural problem with Mir is corrosion. Mir has been up there a long time and during most of that time the interior has been damp with both water and various (corrosive) coolants.

    Radiation isn't really a problem in LEO. The Van Allen belts which shield us here on the ground do just as good a job in low orbit. This is only a problem when you move through the belts themselves or go above them.

    And, of course, the danger of impact is basically constant. Mir is no more dangerious (from this point of view) then it has ever been in the past. In fact, with Mir's prior experience with the Progress tug, it's shown that it can take a puncture and not respond with a catastrophic pressure loss. I don't know that I would expect some of the ISS modules to do that well.

    Much more worrying are the Mir subsystems...the environmental system, for instance. And things like the EVA hatch, which is held together with C-clamps. There are also the fundamental design flaws, like running ducts and cables though hatchways.

  • The question seems to be the cost of a Soyuz spacecraft. The Soyuz booster is around 15-20 million per launch. But I've heard $100 million for the spacecraft...so unless they can get them cheaper they're out of luck.

    And, of couse, a Soyuz can only hold three people, one of which has to be a pilot.

  • The intent was always to send up a final Proton flight to de-orbit it somewhat
    more safely over the Pacific.

    Are you sure it's supposed to be a Proton? I thought it was just a reconfigured Progress (with fuel takes in place of the normal storage bay), and thus to launch on a much cheaper Soyuz...

  • They've done an amazing amount considdering their tiny budget. They've shown what can be done with a evolutionary development program, as opposed to NASA's revolutionary program (ie, throwing away Apollo hardware and starting over with the Shuttle).
  • Thanks Yoz!

    I'll subscribe right away.


    --
    GroundAndPound.com [groundandpound.com] News and info for martial artists of all styles.
  • Well, here's MIR-18 launch pics and video [nasa.gov]. I think this may be a Soyuz launch [www.rka.ru] also.

    The Soyuz rocket [space.com] is used for launching freight or the Soyuz capsule. CNN describes leaving Mir in Soyuz [cnn.com].

  • Oh, no, this is a business trip. Those 40 carryon bags are mine, the ones with the "Iridium" logo...
  • Think of it, they can go up there and air-drop (airless-drop?) thousands of Linux discs!

    They can spray paint their logo on the side of Mir, so whenever you go outside on a clear night, and see Mir shining up there, you'll see the TurboLinux logo!

    Or they can just send up the first mated pair of space penguins, in the hopes that they will be fruitful and multiply, creating a meat-and-blubber industry to make space travel profitable.

    Muahahaha! No, it is you who have gone mad!
  • I choked when i read that =:-) I was like AAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHH! He's illuminati, plus the things that a telecom guy could do on the side with a large orbiting lab in terms of signal intelligence, pirate broadcasting, etc... is virtually limitless.
  • no, you missed the point.

    He's not Illuminati. Gold & Appel is a discordian front. that's what it's all about.
  • Gee! What a deal. I can be the first visitor to space to get to ride aboard a crippled, leaking, decomposing space station! This reminds me of an article posted a while ago about astronauts possibly having sex in space, on a long trip to Mars. Now, for $40 Million and $25 Million for your partner, you could get it on in space. I need to go check my checking account balance!

    --Evan
  • Ahem, it was meant to be a quote from a TV news show... considering the position I have on AOL (that it is an evil company which doesn't do the job as well as local ISPs), I think it is unlikely I would ever call Steve Case a visionary.

    Remember, for TV, visionary=rich.

  • Hmm, I suppose I haven't kept up enough with the Soviet space program. I do respect what they have done, and the fact that they seem to take it very seriously and put their best minds to work on it.
  • > On a related Illuminati note, did anyone notice that Mr. Gates retired on 1-13 ... adds up to 5 and 1+1 =2 23!

    *evil grin*, it's all part of the plan...

    Hey, I don't know about you, but if I were worth a billion from a recent IPO, I'd think $40M a small price to pay to paint a black flag with a 23K (yes, it'd have to be 23-karat, not 24 :-) golden apple logo on the side of a space station.

    To anyone who thinks the money could be "better spent elsewhere" - however bad Mir's present condition, until we get cost-per-pound-to-orbit down to under $100, the cost of keeping Mir alive is cheap compared to the cost of deorbiting it and sending up another station 10 years down the road. Given NASA's track record with the Shuttle, my money's on a privately-owned, run-for-profit Mir over ISS any day. Is flying there risky? Sure. But what's life without risk? If Oracle execs can go deep-water yacht-racing, and Virgin execs can try to fly balloons around the world, why shouldn't some billionaire strap himself into a Proton, cross his fingers, and go for the ride of his life?

  • I love the shuttle, but it sucks technically.

    Yeah, it is/was a great achievement, but they made too many design tradeoffs..
    Is it a payload vehicle?
    Or is it supposed to put people into space?

    As a result, it does neither cost-effectively.
    (There is a whole history here, fascinating reading.)
  • No kidding. Besides, these millionaires want bragging rights. This company is obviously targetting the get rich, play hard crowd.
  • I can see it now, The A-Team - The Next Generation

    "I aint getting in no spaceship fool!" Thionk! :)



    They'd probably give folks a sedative or something, the passengers won't be doing anything crucial anyway, so it doesn't really matter.

    To err is human,
    To really screw up, you need a computer!
  • I agree with you totally.
    Mir makes a great starting point in orbit especially in light of the delays in getting the ISS anywhere near space.
    If somebody is ready to pony up the money to keep Mir going round and round then that's a great thing! Who knows where the future occupants of the ISS might need a home away from home?
  • Zero-G porn has already been done. Find "The Uranus Experiment" somewhere. They filmed it in a Vomit Comet.
    --
    "I was a fool to think I could dream as a normal man."
  • I too totally freaked out when i saw this the other day!

    I just finished reading illuminatus! and seeing this made my head explode!

    I sent the url of the cnn article to an address I believe belongs to Robert Wilson, hopefully he will see it!

    On a related Illuminati note, did anyone notice that Mr. Gates retired on 1-13 ... adds up to 5 and 1+1 =2 23!

  • Not to mention the $20mil for the space ride.
  • NASA has been looking for a cheap way to get into space, and has created a contest among the various aerospace companies to produce such a plane.

    Actually, the contest is being put on by the X Prize foundation (the new Spirit of St. Louis). It's a private organization that is offering a $10M prize for the first one that can launch a re-entry vehicle for under $10M.

    Check it out at xprize.org [xprize.org]
  • That's exactly what I was thinking. How do we know It isn't gonna fall apart as soon as they get up there? The only good thought about that is: Maybe Bill Gates will join them when it falls apart? Hey, I can be hopeful...
  • Actually, to bring the party down, we could land on the moon, we are preparing for a 2 year mission right now. Only problem is the mere mortals can't handle the seclusion... I just had to say that. Sorry. I did chuckle at it though.
  • Why haven't we developed cool spacecrafts like they had in Star Wars:TPM that can go straight into the atmosphere? It would seem to be more an economic issue as opposed to a technological issue. I guess they can't develop quite enough thrust to escape the Earth's gravity without using those huge rockets.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "go straight into the atmosphere". Someone below thought that you might have meant a single stage to orbit (SSTO) type of vehicle.

    While a great idea, we have yet to actually BUILD an SSTO vehicle. And while I believe it is possible, it will not be inexpensive since doing it will require using cutting edge materials to overcome the problems involved (the mass of the craft and how much fuel it can carry, etc..).

    Oh well ... Time to work on that Warp Drive (Yeah I know this would only help once you are in orbit but Warp Drives are pretty damn cool)

    Actually, if we're going to work of some magical technology, lets first develop anti-gravity. With that you could pedal a bike into orbit.

    And on a less magical and slightly more realistic note, why not aggressively develop the ability to manufacture huge quantities of Buckminister Fullerenes and build a space elevator to get into orbit? That would be the next best thing to anti-gravity.

  • I heard from the Discovery Channel that Mir should fall to the earth this spring.

    Can anyone back this up from another source?
  • Show me where Stalin is buried and I'll show you a communist plot.
  • In light of this recent announcement, I'd like to announce my new company, LinuxTwo!

    We will be revolutionizing the industry with our own distribution of the popular "Hello World" application.
    We intend to set a new standard with our advances in 'hello' and ground breaking 'world' technology.

    We will be IPO'ing next week under the stock symbol L1NX.

    NH

    Hey, if that linuxone guy can do it, why can't I? I just wanna go into space! =]
  • I'll bet someone a new vacation on my new getaway location (description below) that noone will take up the offer to go on this "vacation"

    Description of my vacation system:

    I've built a really large slingshot in my backyard.

    I've also built a really large tower in my backyard with noway up.

    We here at "Fling vacations" willfling you up onto the tower, for the peace and quiet that you've always wanted....there's no luxuries, like television, or running water, or even a roof, but it'll be a good vacation..and only for 49.95 for three months...

    We are hard at work, and our next innovation will be a way to get you down after your time is up...

    Cynical? what, me? noway!

  • >> If Oracle execs can go deep-water yacht-racing, I'm sure if this commercial Mir thing is actually successful, our beloved Larry (Ellison, Oracle CEO) will be one of the first ones to go there:)
  • Just read the book - Illuminatus [amazon.com]
  • They wrote about it in Wired about 6 months ago. I'm too lazy to look it up right now tho, so you'll have to make the trek to the library and look thro the indexes.

    I think they spoke with the guy who is working on it, and they couldn't say for sure if it was for real or not.
  • Contrary to popular opinion, when you spend money it does not go into a black hole. It benefits other people.

    In this case part of it will go to Energyia, and part to the investors in question. It will also do a great deal to promote commercial ventures in space, which arguably is a worthwile cause.
  • Transportation history seems to require at least one good passenger disaster in order to make it catch on.

    You mentioned the Titanic, but the Hindenberg is probably more appropriate as a comparison, since we're probably talking flameball rather than iceberg bait.

    We need a good civilian casualty in space so that we can all have a national debate about 'what is a hero' (a la Christa McAuliffe) although it should be a lot funnier when the casualties are silicon valley zillionaires instead of saintly kindergarten teachers.

  • Of course people would pay 40 million to risk loosing life and limb. People have been doing the small-scale equivelent for years. Safari's into Lion country, Deep Sea Diving with sharks, Sky diving, and snorting cocaine are all expencive endevours that people willingly and gladly go into. Some of them are more expensive than others, some of them are more dangerous than others. But there are fanitics who would pay any price to continue doing any of them. Considering the potential gratification of space travel, which many would find greater than all my mentioned activities put together, it would be more surprising if people DIDN'T want to spend all they had to do it than if they did.

    PS Rumor has it that someone is constructing a cruise ship from Titanic's blueprints. I expect that if they do there will be a flood of people wanting to ride...
  • Since, as the article says, this venture capitalist is paying for a mission to boost the Mir to a higher, more stable orbit this is not going to happen anymore. But, as the article says, the Russians were planning on allowing the orbit to deteriorate naturally and steer it into the ocean before this venture capitalist contacted them.
  • Actually - why is this so bad. Obviously governments don't want to pay enormous sums of money to continue serious space exploration. If commercial operations can come up with new technologies in their attempts to make Space travel profitable perhaps this will translate to cheaper costs for govrnment organizations to do real exploration. If this guy could actually make it work or even develop a few new technologies in the process I think its great. Its advancement of space research without more taxpayer dollars being spent. It also keeps Russian scientists employed.
  • I also will miss these guys. MEEPT! isn't quite as regular as the others. I think the moderating down is because they post on every thread, all day and all night. It sure made "First Posts" a more little lively than FIRST DUDE!. I liked the theme song spin offs and the Anti karma how to.

    I think you were a little rough on Sig 11 and Malda though, there just part of slashdot culture. Don't take it so personally.

  • Sure the prces will drop. Eventually. Remember when hand held calculators cost 250 bucks.

    I seem to recall that a foriegn space agency entertained the idea of civilians paying to get into space. John Denver was on a short list, I think the cost was 5M for something similar. They never finally approved it.

  • Industry already is. The problem is that it's being fueld with our tax dollars and we rightfully sream for lower taxes. Vicious cycle 'eh.
  • Wasn't that thing falling apart not too long ago? And now people will be paying to stay on it...Titanic what?
  • So we go from the Mile High Club to the Orbit Club?
  • IS this not a disater waiting to happen..Haven't sci-fi books and movies taught us enough.
  • If you want to go into space, become a buttler. Those billionaires will need someone to serve their drinks. Maybe in the future there will be Soyuz launches filled with caviar and champagne.

  • The X-33 will be flying this year.

    Actually, the X-33 may not fly this year [yahoo.com], after one of the graphite-epoxy fuel tanks failed in a test. They may have to build new aluminum tanks for it to fly, postponing the first flight till early 2002.

    Oh well... gives me more time to accumulate sufficient funds to pay for a vacation in space. :-)

  • Metal fatigue in airplanes only comes about because of the tremendous strain put on the airframe during takeoffs and landings. Although a rocket launch is no stroll in the park, once a satellite or space station component gets there it doesn't ever undergo that stress again (unless it is deorbited). So metal fatigue is not a worry for a space station.

    Radiation is a danger along with something almost as dangerous if not more so: meteorites and space junk. Normally these things burn up in the atmosphere, but above the atmosphere these objects are travelling at tremendous speeds. Even tiny objects can have huge kinetic energies. And a collision with such an object would be disastrous.

  • HAHAHAHAHA
    I own bitch. I must admit that I was inspired to do this in part by you. Thank you for your contributions.
  • Huh, that's interesting. I just made this troll account because someone made up the chile molesta character and posted the email. I emailed him and got told it was a non-existant address. So I registered and used it to see how many emails I could get from people. I just wanted a little attention. The interesting thing is that no one has sent me an email. This isn't an attempt to make child molestation funny it is just an experiment in trolling. Performance art maybe. On the same level of statues of the Virgin Mary covered in elephant dung? Maybe lower. I don't really know. I thought I could eventually come up with something really funny and creative like the other people, but I really haven't been able to. I think most trolls just want attention. This is an experiment to see how much attention I can get.
  • That module was only included in plans so that the american taxpayers would not kill thier congressman/woman. Just ask anybody at Boeing. That part of the Station will never exist. Politics suck.
  • What's next? The Rocky Horror Show In Space? "There's a light, Over at the Gorbachov Place" etc
  • Very interesting. Is there any possibility for the price to drop? And is the ride safe for people who aren't trainded like astorauts and have a strong constitution? Probably such things will cause some poeple who can afford the trip to not want to. By the way, is it possible for slashdot to get pictures of the to-be tourist rocket ships?
  • lol, i think that's big bullshit to make your vacation @ mir ... come on realise it... people stepping in a space shuttle and getting fired away to space... that's suicide.. the people doesn't even can fly save in space without risks. Not so long ago whas there an accident in space. my conclusion is that it's not save to go into space.. no normal civilians ... the goverment can't aprove that... that's my opinion about mir vacations.
  • NASA doesn't really like all these attempts to save Mir because they are concerned that Russia can't build enough rockets to satisfy their commitment to ISS as well as Mir. Although ISS can be supplied via the space shuttle, crews have to be launched on Soyuz rockets. This is because the shuttle can only stay in space for a couple of weeks and NASA won't leave astronauts on the space station with no way of getting down. The Soyuz capsules can stay in space for extended periods of time to provide an emergency exit for the station, so NASA decided to use them for ISS crews. I believe that the Soyuz is also necessary to reboost the station. NASA is developing a 7-person crew return vehicle, but they have to use Soyuz rockets until the new CRV is ready. See a NASA Watch/SpaceRef editorial on this here. [spaceref.com]
  • Just a coincidence this story was posted last month? Naaahh...
    Sex in Space [slashdot.org]

    So, now we know where all that Andover IPO money will be going...
  • Close. The last Mir crew departed several months ago, closing down systems and bringing back essential equipment. There have always been contradictory statements about whether any return flights would be financially feasible, but returning was always a technological option; Mir is still in a safe orbit for some time. Russia never intended to just let it "crash and burn"; it's far too large, and crosses too many populated areas, to risk that (remember Skylab?). The intent was always to send up a final Proton flight to de-orbit it somewhat more safely over the Pacific. NASA, as well, would prefer this.
    ----
  • Walt Anderson isnt an anagram for Hagbar Celine is it?
  • Whoops, replace & with $.
  • This and the Hilton-space hotel will open up a new market. Not for space hotels, no, but for zero-g porn. sure, 40M is a bit over budget for most outfits, but think of the strength of the investment--the first, EVER, weightless porn flick. Anyone wanna join in a business venture??
  • Do they know something we don't:
    Anderson, Energiya and other investors are forming Mir Corp. Ltd. in Bermuda to run what they hope will be the first for-profit space station in the solar system.
    What about the rest of the galaxy? Are there more for-profit space stations that they aren't telling us about? I smell conspiracy. Someone knows something about space stations outside the solar system, and I think we oughtta make them fess up before we hang our hats on Mir. I wanna see if a vacation on the alien one would be better...

    -B

  • Soyuz is probably a good deal safer then the shuttle...it has an escape system. Soyuz boosters have exploded before, but they've never killed their crews. The last Soyuz fatality was over 20 years ago.
  • What is the URL for SkeptiNews? Sounds like my kind of news ;)


    --
    GroundAndPound.com [groundandpound.com] News and info for martial artists of all styles.
  • Although at 40 million dollars a pop it IS a wee bit steep. I'd say only someone with a net worth of more than 1 billion dollars would spring for this. Which gives a customer base of around 1000 people world wide.(According to Fortune magazine).


    Still maybe if they can get 10 people a year they might be able to make the thing work financially.


    I wonder what makes space travel so expensive? Is it the fuel (liquid oxygen and liquid hydrogen I believe), the cost of the vehicle itself (the various booster stages and so on) or the maintenance costs(engineers, repairs and general upkeep).


    Why haven't we developed cool spacecrafts like they had in Star Wars:TPM that can go straight into the atmosphere? It would seem to be more an economic issue as opposed to a technological issue. I guess they can't develop quite enough thrust to escape the Earth's gravity without using those huge rockets. Oh well ... Time to work on that Warp Drive (Yeah I know this would only help once you are in orbit but Warp Drives are pretty damn cool)

  • I find this strange, as from what I know of Mir.. it is now a) Abandoned b) Never to be used again c) Going to crash and burn later this year?
  • When commercial industries realize there's money to be made, the pace and development of the technologies will rise. More companies will spring up to compete with eachother, resulting in lower prices, higher demand. All we need is an incentive for industry to get rolling on this. I think Robert Anton Wilson gave a good example of this in Schroedinger's Cat or the Illuminatus! Trilogy, can't remember which one offhand.
  • Oh yay! I just can't wait to spend a week in the lovely run down Mir Space Station. Sure, its a fixer-upper, but thats what makes it fun!! Please bring your own toolkit to make minor repairs...
    Next: Vacation to Mars!!! Cost $125 million, chance of actually landing on Mars: 0%!!!
    Sign up now!!!
    J
  • This is just great. Commercialism starts leaking
    off the earth and begins to polute the solar
    system.
  • .. I mean, I want to see civilians going into space someday, but this story seems far fetched. Now, to be fair, there are important elements of the current Russian power structure who would probably be willing to do something like this for that kind of money. However, I think the PR risk is too great, imagine:

    Visionary Internet tycoon Steve Case died today on route to the Russian space station Mir when the craft carrying him exploded. This devastating tragedy has sent shock waves around the world, we now go to Wolf Blitzer to see if the technology stocks will be able to survive this loss....

    Replace Steve Case with your .com or computer billionaire of choice and you'll see what I mean. I mean, I've always wondered if the Challenger explosion would've set back NASA's image as much as it did (I still think that MTV's abandonment of the moon flag logo was a sign of a downturn in NASA's pioneering image) if the member of the crew were all hardened soldier types and didn't include a perky school teacher. Not that we can afford to lose hardened soldiers, just that the public perception might have been different if these were professional soldiers who might just as easily have risked death in Somalia and the Persian Gulf.

  • Mir (Score:2)

    by p0d ( 56980 )
    The money should be steered to shipping the Russian module for the ISS over here so we can launch it. Or the companies could finance a 'tourist' module on the ISS :)
  • IMHO (and I do mean "humble" since I'm not putting up the money here) Anderson's ~$1/4M CATS Prize [space-frontier.org] is probably more important to the goal of space tourism than his multimillion $ investment in Mir reported in this article. But I'm glad to see someone calling NASA's bluff on its self-serving "ditch Mir" rhetoric.

    BTW -- anyone can get into the act [cybercity.dk].

  • The whine: This is old news. I submitted the same story back on Thursday, but Hemos rejected it. Possibly he thought it was a hoax.

    I wonder how many people will be staying at a time. A launch is awfully damned expensive. IIRC it cost about $250 million to put a satellite in geosynchronous orbit. Obviously, boosting a relatively light payload into a low orbit is not quite so expensive. But suppose you're putting 4 people up at a time. At $20 million apiece, that's only $80 million for the trip. Does that do much more than cover costs, especially when you figure in the cost of renovating Mir?

    Despite all the talk about "Silicon Valley millionaires", $20M is still a whole lot of money. There aren't going to be all that many folks who can just drop a wad of cash that size on a lark. This sounds really interesting, but I begin to doubt that it'll ever get off the ground.

  • or, in my case, engineers, bongs and a welder... wouldn't it be worth the adventure? I mean, I don't think I'd be spending $25mil for a trip yet, but I've got myself a a bunch of friends with technical backgrounds, and I can weld... why not? would be a fun weekend project, I think. This all needs to get happening sometime, why not start now? First of all, where better to learn what we really need to do to build a reliable space station than in the environment itself? Yes, we can design and build great things here on earth, but this is not where they are going to be implemented. Why not work on the thing in /its/ working environment. Yeah, the mir will probably end up killing a few people, and it might not last very long, but it's the kind of grassroots thing we need to get a bigger, better, faster, whatever we want space thing sometime down the road. And the Mir is probably the best thing to start with. American sense of adventure, "We'll do anything, as long as we have a security rope." Russian sense of adventure, "We'll do anything, as long as there's vodka." Rock on russia.
  • Why haven't we developed cool spacecrafts like they had in Star Wars:TPM that can go straight into the atmosphere?

    Actually, during the 1960's, the US developed a plane that could travel at the edge of space. Since then, NASA has been looking for a cheap way to get into space, and has created a contest among the various aerospace companies to produce such a plane. There was a show on either TLC or Discovery, and it showed that several of the companies were working on a craft that does exactly what you said.

  • Space (Score:3)

    by crayz ( 1056 ) on Saturday January 15, 2000 @10:55AM (#1370137) Homepage
    There are lots of independent companies and organizations who are salivating at the chance to get into space.

    Some I know of(post any I miss, there are tons that I haven't saved the URLs for):

    http://asi.org
    http://www.rotaryrocket.com/(really cool)
    http://www.space.com
    http://www.marssociety.com/(with a petition)
    http://www.space-frontier.org/
    http://bigelowaerospace.com/

  • Re:Its about time (Score:3)

    by SEWilco ( 27983 ) on Saturday January 15, 2000 @09:53AM (#1370138) Journal
    Well, you probably know about the X-15 [friends-partners.org] which went to the edge of space.
    "...It was a stepping stone to later developments - either an X-15 launched atop Navaho G-26 boosters, an X-15 scramjet version, or the X-20 - that would lead to manned orbital spaceflight. This stepping-stone approach was abandoned and the crash programs of Mercury and Apollo initiated instead..."
    For that matter, you can read a paper here [spacefuture.com] which estimates a low end of $5,221 per passenger on an X-33 derivative.

  • Ground-to-Space being worked on (Score:3)

    by SEWilco ( 27983 ) on Saturday January 15, 2000 @08:35AM (#1370139) Journal
    We've been able to build ground-to-space aircraft for a while, we just haven't tried to do it. To have enough fuel in orbit, the easiest would have been to actually carry the spaceplane up with another aircraft. But fully self-contained is just a little harder.

    NASA doing development with X-33 and X-34. [nasa.gov] The X-33 will be flying [nasa.gov] this year. It's a test ship, so will not be reaching orbit.

  • Re:Its about time (Score:3)

    by Ertai ( 134811 ) on Saturday January 15, 2000 @09:39AM (#1370140)
    The VentureStar is the next generation space shuttle being developed by Lockheed Martin and NASA. It is designed to go to orbit in a single stage. You can get info on the VentureStar here: http://www.venturestar.com. The X-33 is an unmanned prototype for the VentureStar. Unfortunately the X-33 has suffered delays especially due to test failures of its liquid hydrogen fuel tank. It's doubtful that the test flight of the X-33 originally scheduled for July will actually take place this year. Here's some info on that: http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20000114/sc/space_ plane_1.html

  • Re:Its about time (Score:4)

    by DHartung ( 13689 ) on Saturday January 15, 2000 @01:21PM (#1370141) Homepage
    According to this Expendable Launch Vehicle Cost Comparison [nasa.gov], Soyuz is actually one of the cheapest ways to orbit at US$18M a pop. (It's those 27 years to depreciate base manufacturing costs that helps.) And each flight could presumably carry one cosmonaut and two passengers. I'm not sure anyone has a good way to estimate Energia's numbers, though: Russia's financial situation is such that cold hard American cash is worth far more than its paper conversion value, and they've probably run flights at a worse loss basis for the Russian government. Besides, this will help subsidize a running production line (more vehicles == cheaper costs), as well as advertise their satellite launch services.

    I wonder what makes space travel so expensive? Is it the fuel (liquid oxygen and liquid hydrogen I believe), the cost of the vehicle itself (the various booster stages and so on) or the maintenance costs(engineers, repairs and general upkeep).

    Fuels differ. LOX/LH is what the shuttle rockets use, but Soyuz uses a LOX/Kerosene fuel in all 3 stages. Figure 30 cents/kg for the combination, and you'll need something like 270,000 kg., but that's less than $100,000. The Soyuz crew vehicle is theoretically reusable, but they tend to land hard and space-rating afterward would be tricky. In practice Energia probably salvages what they can and sticks it back in the assembly line. What you're looking at are the overall costs of running the infrastructure. The shuttle has basically the same problem: if you look at pure materials and other "just this time" costs, you can come up with ridiculously low numbers (say, $60-100 million); but when you have 5 launches in a year and pay $5 billion for the privilege, you know there's more to it than that.

    Soyuz launch vehicles [friends-partners.org] (the type that go to Mir).

    Why haven't we developed cool spacecrafts like they had in Star Wars:TPM that can go straight into the atmosphere? [you mean out of?] It would seem to be more an economic issue as opposed to a technological issue. I guess they can't develop quite enough thrust to escape the Earth's gravity without using those huge rockets.

    SSTO (Single Stage to Orbit) vehicles have been on the drawing board since the earliest days of NASA, but none has ever been built. The closest prototypes from recent years have suffered from the existence of the shuttle and other working launch systems. The DC-X was a promising vehicle, but it was damaged during a hard landing. The VentureStar project is billed as a next-generation shuttle, but since STS will be around for at least another 15-20 years it's not imminent. The X-33 is a prototype of some of its technology, but it's been delayed by problems of its own. The X-38 is a similarly-shaped (flying wing) vehicle, that would be a lifeboat for an ISS crew of up to 7; but it's an orbit-to-ground vehicle only.

    Meanwhile, the non-governmental "space launches for profit" crowd has a number of possibilities close to reality. Kistler Aerospace has a two-stage reusable design [spaceandtech.com], and Rotary Rocket [rotaryrocket.com] uses an innovative rotor design to land a cone-shaped vehicle straight up (just like those 50s sci-fi flicks). The main obstacle remains a robust launching industry, with competition keeping the prices of expendable rockets low. Boeing and LockMart pretty much have this market sewn up; in fact there are more launches than can be accomodated at American facilities. A company called SeaLaunch partners with Boeing and Ukraine to orbit satellites from a floating oil-derrick-platform that lives in Hawaii. Launch facilities are being worked on in Canada and Alaska (to serve the polar orbit market), while India and China beef up their launch facilities. Indonesia and the Phillipines are proposing launch sites. It's really a wide-open market, as long as you're not talking about people yet. Give some of these systems a couple of years to mature and lower costs, and you'll have $1000/pound to earth orbit. That's when launching people will become easy.

    http://www.space.com/business/launching/new_rock ets_wg.html
    ----

  • Re:Mir (Score:4)

    by Ertai ( 134811 ) on Saturday January 15, 2000 @09:56AM (#1370142)
    Interesting that you should mention an ISS tourist module because the idea has, in fact, been proposed. Check out the details here:

    http://www.msnbc.com/news/335153.asp

  • Hail Eris! All Hail Discordia! (Score:5)

    by Tackhead ( 54550 ) on Saturday January 15, 2000 @08:29AM (#1370143)
    From the article:
    "through his Bermuda-based holding company Gold & Appel,"
    ...at which point I promptly spewed coffee all over my desk.

    Anyone who's read the Illuminatus! Trilogy by Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Shea should be rolling on the floor now in peals of giddy laughter. Given that Anderson is on the board of Roton, I'd say the Mir effort is probably serious, and I applaud him for the wonderful in-joke he's playing on fnord NASA and the rest of the "government fnord space bureaucracy" with his whimsical choice of names.

    But then again, maybe that's just what the Illuminati fnord want you to believe.

    The following was shamelessly stolen from SkeptiNews:

    Just when you thought the continuiiiiing story of "Mir in Space" couldn't get any weirder, another Western business partner has emerged to save Mir and convert it into that anti-news stalwart "an orbiting space hotel for billionaires". This time, who should it be but Gold & Appel Transfers, of the Cayman Islands. Yup, "Gold & Appel Transfers": last observed in Shea and Wilson's ILLUMINATUS! trilogy as the front organisation for neophile outlaw Hagbard Celine and his Legion of Dynamic Discord. Terrifyingly for the few who still believe that book to be fiction, G&A is a real company with funds of over $300 million. President Walt Anderson made his money as co-founder of Esprit Telecom, and is now a major investor in the Space Frontier Foundation and the Roton, the orbital transfer system that looks like a beanie. G&A have already offered $21 million to the Russian govt to maintain Mir in a serviceable orbit, with more, they say, to come. It's unclear whether the group of investors can really rustle up the huge cash needed to maintain Mir; but wouldn't it be nice if, when the ISS finally boots in the 22nd century, NASA found that a bunch of Discordians had beaten them to it? http://mercurycenter.com/premium/front/docs/mir13. htm

    (Fnords? What fnords? I don't see any fnords!)

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